True. Only finding it is not always easy. That's a lot what this discussion is about. How to find what you're looking for.
On Mon, Feb 8, 2010 at 12:31 PM, Roger Hui <rhui...@shaw.ca> wrote: > I can tell you categorically that when Ken wrote the dictionary > (or anything else), making himself look smart was not one > of the considerations. > > The question of "what is this for?" has been answered abundantly, > but not in the dictionary, a reference document. The answers > are provided in the "Introduction" part of the "J Introduction > and Dictionary" and the various application papers, such as > http://www.jsoftware.com/jwiki/Essays > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Ian Clark <earthspo...@googlemail.com> > Date: Monday, February 8, 2010 10:59 > Subject: Re: [Jprogramming] The Accessible Dictionary > To: Programming forum <programming@jsoftware.com> > > > Harvey, you've given me an idea for another "statutory'' link on each > > page: "[Motivation]". > > > > When I learned mathematics it was the Fermat/Gauss tradition: cover > > your tracks and let the student work hard to follow you. Wow- > > 'em. Make > > yourself look smart. Play to the good students and devil take the > > rest. > > (Imperial College really did fire 30% of students the first > > year, and > > 30% the second. But hey! -- it was the baby boom). > > > > But when I came to teach students myself, they wanted to know: > > "why do > > I have to learn all this?" ... and I was supposed to tell them. > > > > But I sympathise with the latter view. Students need motivation. The > > motivation of finding out things nobody else can attain to doesn't > > recruit enough students to fill the course. > > But Mathematics is not difficult. There's just this tradition of > > making it look so. > > Ditto (...peace, folx...) J. > > > > Ian > > > > > > On Mon, Feb 8, 2010 at 6:41 PM, PackRat <pack...@anet.com> wrote: > > > Ian Clark wrote: > > >> Can we hear from some real novices? That is, ones who are > > capable of > > >> introspecting while they problem-solve? > > > > > > and Raul Miller wrote: > > >> should some pages have introductory/advanced structures where we > > >> first introduce the reader to some essential cases and then > > come back > > >> and treat the operation with more rigor? > > > > > > I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest that many, if not most, > > > proficient people here have come to J from APL. Frankly, that gives > > > you a HUGE conceptual advantage over newbies like me who lack > > an APL > > > background. > > > > > > In my opinion, as a newbie, there are two concepts that have > > to be > > > introduced at the very beginning and repeated over and over at every > > > opportunity for those who are brand new to J: (1) the concept of > > > working with data as an "all-at-once" array rather than as discrete > > > items, and (2) the concept of rank. Of course, these concepts cross > > > all levels of understanding, and that's part of the advantage > > and need > > > of repeating them in different usage environments and in different > > > examples. I'm getting better with the first concept in my > > elementary J > > > programming efforts, but the second is still challenging. > > (The first > > > is quite challenging to those who have done programming before > > and are > > > used to thinking in terms of dealing with array data via loops.) > > > > > > Another thing that I think should be addressed with each > > primitive is > > > WHY you would ever want to use that primitive--what's it good for? > > > What's it good in combination with, and why? As a newbie, this > > > question of WHY was always one of the foremost questions in my > > mind. I > > > would look at Dictionary examples and think, "Well, THAT'S > > stupid! Why > > > would anyone ever want to do that? What practical use is > > that?" (My > > > feeling was also partly engendered because many Dictionary examples > > > don't indicate what the point of the example is. It might be > > obvious> to a J aficionado but not necessarily to a beginner. > > Although a > > > meditative trance over an example may be how some learn, it's > > not my > > > learning style. Show me "real life", practical examples.) > > When I know > > > WHY a primitive is used (for what purpose or purposes), then I > > can use > > > it as a building block to put together with other building > > blocks to > > > come up with a solution to a problem. > > > > > > Also, in learning in general, some beginning material just has > > to be > > > learned by rote until greater understanding is achieved. An > > example is > > > the addition table: just accept (and use) the fact that 2 + 2 > > = 4; > > > you'll see why later on. Or, "t-h-e" is the word "the": just accept > > > (and use) that fact of the English language. "Sight words" don't > > > follow phonetic rules and just have to be learned by rote. > > Thus, as I > > > see it, there are some basic J verbal constructions to get > > things done > > > (such as reading/writing an array from/to a file) that are > > just going > > > to have to be accepted on faith by newbies and learned by > > rote, so that > > > they can use newly learned primitives with data that's > > meaningful to > > > them. My point with file access is that "real" data that > > newbies may > > > have worked with all their lives exists in files, not in artificial, > > > hand-typed data as arguments in an example or a demo. Some of the > > > examples in the new project should include "real life" ways of > > working> with data at simple levels of understanding (without > > *initially*> worrying about the format--rows, columns, etc.--of > > the data, although > > > format obviously plays a later role in accessing items of data). > > > > > > I frankly admit that my concerns here are not so much with the > > curious> Rosetta Code person but with people who see the value > > of J and want to > > > devote serious effort to learning it. This is the kind of > > thing I > > > tried to emphasize in my own materials for professional colleagues > > > before I retired, and I applaud any efforts here to assist with > > > learning J. In a sense, if you really want to experience the > > challenge> of developing materials for beginners, think of it in > > terms of helping > > > middle grade and upper grade children (grades 4-8) to learn J > > and who > > > may not be particularly interested in math (in other words, perhaps > > > more interested in the humanities than in the sciences). > > After all, > > > thinking and problem solving are what J is all about, and that > > need not > > > be restricted to the field of mathematics. > > > > > > FWIW. > > > > > > Harvey > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm
