I'm not sure what it is we're looking for. That is one thing I have been wondering as I have been following this thread. Lots of talk about making it easier on the newbie. But, as you say, how far should we go? We have to make some assumptions that the reader has some background in mathematics and computing.
Documenting things is not easy, but figuring out how to make the documentation easily found is much harder. The dictionary is already very well done. But it's not for newbies. On Mon, Feb 8, 2010 at 1:29 PM, Roger Hui <rhui...@shaw.ca> wrote: > And what is it you are looking for? The applications > of +? The motivation for +? > > The approach for many years has been to use > the notation (APL and J) to write about various topics, > and through such writing illustrate the effectiveness > and usefulness (or lack of same) of the notation. > > Comments such as "Well, THAT'S stupid! Why > would anyone ever want to do that? What practical > use is that?" mostly reflects badly on the commenter. > > And where do you stop? For example, the \. page > has an example on "minors", illustrating the use > of \.. But what is the use of minors? Well one could > say it's used for determinants. But what is the use > of determinants? And hasn't modern techniques > made determinants not "practically" useful? etc. etc. > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Don Guinn <dongu...@gmail.com> > Date: Monday, February 8, 2010 11:56 > Subject: Re: [Jprogramming] The Accessible Dictionary > To: Programming forum <programming@jsoftware.com> > > > True. Only finding it is not always easy. That's a lot what this > > discussionis about. How to find what you're looking for. > > > > On Mon, Feb 8, 2010 at 12:31 PM, Roger Hui <rhui...@shaw.ca> wrote: > > > > > I can tell you categorically that when Ken wrote the dictionary > > > (or anything else), making himself look smart was not one > > > of the considerations. > > > > > > The question of "what is this for?" has been answered abundantly, > > > but not in the dictionary, a reference document. The answers > > > are provided in the "Introduction" part of the "J Introduction > > > and Dictionary" and the various application papers, such as > > > http://www.jsoftware.com/jwiki/Essays > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: Ian Clark <earthspo...@googlemail.com> > > > Date: Monday, February 8, 2010 10:59 > > > Subject: Re: [Jprogramming] The Accessible Dictionary > > > To: Programming forum <programming@jsoftware.com> > > > > > > > Harvey, you've given me an idea for another "statutory'' > > link on each > > > > page: "[Motivation]". > > > > > > > > When I learned mathematics it was the Fermat/Gauss > > tradition: cover > > > > your tracks and let the student work hard to follow you. Wow- > > > > 'em. Make > > > > yourself look smart. Play to the good students and devil > > take the > > > > rest. > > > > (Imperial College really did fire 30% of students the first > > > > year, and > > > > 30% the second. But hey! -- it was the baby boom). > > > > > > > > But when I came to teach students myself, they wanted to know: > > > > "why do > > > > I have to learn all this?" ... and I was supposed to tell them. > > > > > > > > But I sympathise with the latter view. Students need > > motivation. The > > > > motivation of finding out things nobody else can attain to doesn't > > > > recruit enough students to fill the course. > > > > But Mathematics is not difficult. There's just this > > tradition of > > > > making it look so. > > > > Ditto (...peace, folx...) J. > > > > > > > > Ian > > > > > > > > > > > > On Mon, Feb 8, 2010 at 6:41 PM, PackRat > > <pack...@anet.com> wrote: > > > > > Ian Clark wrote: > > > > >> Can we hear from some real novices? That is, ones who are > > > > capable of > > > > >> introspecting while they problem-solve? > > > > > > > > > > and Raul Miller wrote: > > > > >> should some pages have introductory/advanced structures > > where we > > > > >> first introduce the reader to some essential cases and then > > > > come back > > > > >> and treat the operation with more rigor? > > > > > > > > > > I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest that many, if > > not most, > > > > > proficient people here have come to J from APL. > > Frankly, that gives > > > > > you a HUGE conceptual advantage over newbies like me who lack > > > > an APL > > > > > background. > > > > > > > > > > In my opinion, as a newbie, there are two concepts that have > > > > to be > > > > > introduced at the very beginning and repeated over and > > over at every > > > > > opportunity for those who are brand new to J: (1) the > > concept of > > > > > working with data as an "all-at-once" array rather than as > > discrete> > > items, and (2) the concept of rank. Of > > course, these concepts cross > > > > > all levels of understanding, and that's part of the advantage > > > > and need > > > > > of repeating them in different usage environments and in > > different> > > examples. I'm getting better with the first > > concept in my > > > > elementary J > > > > > programming efforts, but the second is still challenging. > > > > (The first > > > > > is quite challenging to those who have done programming before > > > > and are > > > > > used to thinking in terms of dealing with array data via loops.) > > > > > > > > > > Another thing that I think should be addressed with each > > > > primitive is > > > > > WHY you would ever want to use that primitive--what's it > > good for? > > > > > What's it good in combination with, and why? As a > > newbie, this > > > > > question of WHY was always one of the foremost questions > > in my > > > > mind. I > > > > > would look at Dictionary examples and think, "Well, THAT'S > > > > stupid! Why > > > > > would anyone ever want to do that? What practical use is > > > > that?" (My > > > > > feeling was also partly engendered because many Dictionary > > examples> > > don't indicate what the point of the example > > is. It might be > > > > obvious> to a J aficionado but not necessarily to a beginner. > > > > Although a > > > > > meditative trance over an example may be how some learn, it's > > > > not my > > > > > learning style. Show me "real life", practical examples.) > > > > When I know > > > > > WHY a primitive is used (for what purpose or purposes), > > then I > > > > can use > > > > > it as a building block to put together with other building > > > > blocks to > > > > > come up with a solution to a problem. > > > > > > > > > > Also, in learning in general, some beginning material just has > > > > to be > > > > > learned by rote until greater understanding is > > achieved. An > > > > example is > > > > > the addition table: just accept (and use) the fact that 2 > > + 2 > > > > = 4; > > > > > you'll see why later on. Or, "t-h-e" is the word > > "the": just accept > > > > > (and use) that fact of the English language. "Sight > > words" don't > > > > > follow phonetic rules and just have to be learned by rote. > > > > Thus, as I > > > > > see it, there are some basic J verbal constructions to get > > > > things done > > > > > (such as reading/writing an array from/to a file) that are > > > > just going > > > > > to have to be accepted on faith by newbies and learned by > > > > rote, so that > > > > > they can use newly learned primitives with data that's > > > > meaningful to > > > > > them. My point with file access is that "real" data that > > > > newbies may > > > > > have worked with all their lives exists in files, not in > > artificial,> > > hand-typed data as arguments in an example or a > > demo. Some of the > > > > > examples in the new project should include "real life" > > ways of > > > > working> with data at simple levels of understanding (without > > > > *initially*> worrying about the format--rows, columns, etc.--of > > > > the data, although > > > > > format obviously plays a later role in accessing items of data). > > > > > > > > > > I frankly admit that my concerns here are not so much with the > > > > curious> Rosetta Code person but with people who see the value > > > > of J and want to > > > > > devote serious effort to learning it. This is the > > kind of > > > > thing I > > > > > tried to emphasize in my own materials for professional > > colleagues> > > before I retired, and I applaud any efforts here > > to assist with > > > > > learning J. In a sense, if you really want to > > experience the > > > > challenge> of developing materials for beginners, think of > > it in > > > > terms of helping > > > > > middle grade and upper grade children (grades 4-8) to > > learn J > > > > and who > > > > > may not be particularly interested in math (in other > > words, perhaps > > > > > more interested in the humanities than in the sciences). > > > > After all, > > > > > thinking and problem solving are what J is all about, and that > > > > need not > > > > > be restricted to the field of mathematics. > > > > > > > > > > FWIW. > > > > > > > > > > Harvey > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm
