Don't get me wrong I will do a small jobs for   good or new customers. When
I find myself doing to many small jobs for the same customer and  they did
not award me  a large design,  I quit  responding  to their next request for
quote.    I  will not be insulted as a small business supplier used to
satisfy government purchasing regulations if you know what I mean.      As
you mentioned my overhead cost remain constant weather I am involved in a
large design or a small one.   However the percentage that is billed to a
small job is disportionate to the actual task of doing  the design.  Jim
Mcgrath and I were discussing this offline.     If I have to meet with a
customer, go to his site, drink his coffee, eat his donuts, talk to his
staff, then drive back and put together a proposal, I would rather do it for
a larger job where it is easier to bury  a 4 hour meeting, my  travel time,
marketing, and proposal.  Unfortunately my min overhead on most jobs eats up
6 hours and I am a one man operation ( wife helps)      Like you said
overhead can be high.  My hourly rate may lower than most, however, I bill
like a lawyer.  If you require more than soft copies ie hard prints: we
bill, if you require me to look up lacking information for  BOM and
parts....we bill.  If you sign off on one of our designs and make the
slightest change...we bill.   I use a database for proposals: it is set up
to provide both costing for labor and material.   I think my database is
fairly accurate and the least amount of hours that we can touch a design for
is close to 30 hours ( including overhead). That leaves me 24 hours or 3
days to design, have a design review with the customer,  make their changes
( which does happen 99/100 times)  then finish and deliver. The changes are
also factored into the proposal.    I learned something long ago "the
customer is always right"....that's allot of bull hockey.  Only a few
customers are always right, the rest are hiring me for my expertise to guide
them thru what they generally don't have a clue to do and that's the
confident cocky attitude I have unless someone knows a lot more than me.  I
can size someone up in the first few minutes of dealing with them.  I am
sure they size me up also.  I know when to back down but assertiveness is
part of the marketing game.  nuff said.

By the way:  I got my design loaded to specta this afternoon:   I guess it
is fairly large it was an 8 meg dsn file which is fairly large and even took
specta several minutes to load. I have never seen spectra take that long to
load a file.  And of course I am try ing to make route between emails

Mike Reagan

----- Original Message -----
From: Abd ul-Rahman Lomax <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: Protel EDA Forum <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2001 5:52 PM
Subject: Re: [PEDA] Netlist will not load

> At 05:51 PM 3/16/01 -0500, Mike Reagan wrote:
> >[I had written:]
> > > I don't call those medium to large designs, I call them very large
> >designs.
> > > The largest design I've ever encountered in my entire career -- so
far --
> > > was 8000 pins. Pins, not nets. I didn't do it -- impossible with
Tango --
> > > but I vaguely recall that some company did the job for about $20,000.
> > > 8000 net board is at least twice as large as that.
> >When I started doing design
> >work independently, I would take on  really small jobs but soon after
> >loosing money on small jobs, I decided not to bid or waste my time on
> >designs because that translated in to small customers paying small
> >of  $$$ which in turn made my already small operation even smaller.
> Well, I'm certainly happy when we get a large design, because it means we
> work steadily for a good length of time, but I also do well with small
> designs. Other things being equal, I'd rather have twenty small designs at
> $500 each than one large design at $10K. Twenty small designs means many
> different clients which translates to more stability. If we were to pour
> everything into one client for a month or two, the business, in my
> experience, tends to collapse after that client is finished with the
> cycle. So the monthly income is spectacular but the yearly income is
> But the key is in "other things being equal." Obviously, quoting
> or at least conservatively is very important. Small designs have a bit
> overhead so the price must reflect that. If we are working by the hour we
> don't care, large or small....
> But small designs can be much less of a headache. For one thing, they
> strain the resources!
> >   8000
> >pins aint a whole lot...maybe I am still under bidding because I could
> >command 20K for 8000 pins.  I could probably turn a design like that in
2- 3
> >weeks most, closer to 2 which would be hard to justify 20 K to customer
> >2 weeks of work.
> Of course. This was about ten years ago. And that price is remembered
> through a bit of a fog. I do remember thinking that I could have done the
> design manually with tape and mylar for much less. So, yes, the price is
> 8000 pins I would now price at $8,000 minimum up to about $16,000 maximum.
> Depends on things liked density, single sided components vs. double-sided,
> etc., etc. We look for perhaps $3500 per week at 40 hours. (Those of you
> who might fall off your swivel chairs at the number, remember that service
> bureaus can have a lot of overhead, and may not be running at full
> capacity. And when they are running at full capacity, there are the
> psychiatry and medication costs to consider....)
> I'm running my business differently than I used to. I've networked a few
> designers and am cautiously expanding the circle.
> [...]
> >I think the guys writing code are chasing more internal wrinkles in the
> >program than user stuff.   They outdid themselves, but I still would like
> >see a netlist load so fast that I don't have time to take a sip of
> Loading a netlist to the pads should be a very fast operation, so
> is wrong, for sure. Updating the primitives I expect to take quite a bit
> longer; there is a lot more data and a lot more complexity to consider.
> Abdulrahman Lomax
> P.O. Box 690
> El Verano, CA 95433

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