In response to Mr. Lomax,
He is absolutely 110% correct in the area of face to face
requirements in PCB design.
It is a shame that many companies have not come to realize this.
Even direct employees and companies can benefit from remote
work. I will say that I am more likely to immediately pick up the phone
or email if I have a question about a design.
Just the same as if I were to walk down the hall.
If companies would wake up to this way of working they could
save greatly on space required to rent. There would definitely
be times when a designer may be required to be in for certain meetings
etc, but for the majority of the design process it really is a back off
and let the design be finished. I have sat in meetings of few companies
that talked about being a global company getting involved in IP telephony
broadband etc but when they were asked if I could work from home the
answer was no. They did not walk the talk. Also as Mr. Lomax states I wish I
had
a nickel for every time the engineering group was not really ready to start
layout
when they said so likewise ended up with much time that could have been put
to the companies better use. I did spend time with busy work but this of
course
did not help the particular project at the time. But for those with plenty
of money
and the need to see someone's face keep those checks coming.
Also I wish I had a nickel again for every time I actually started the
design before
engineering was ready, then only to be fed continual changes which "Murphy's
Law"
affected the tightest area of placement that I just completed, in these
cases I would have been
better working on another design and come back to this one when they were
really ready
because in reality I would have been no further ahead by starting before it
was ready.
If companies are worried about goofing off this is ludicrous, if a design
takes
40 hours to complete and there is a due date 5 days away from start date
then whether
 that designer works 40 hours straight or between 5PM and 6 AM every day
should
be no concern of the company just that they got their design done on time
and correct.

So please do not pick a design group, service bureau, or designer based on
his/her
physical location, but rather pick them on their design capability.

Thanks
Bob
Robert M. Wolfe, C.I.D.
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

----- Original Message -----
From: "Abd ul-Rahman Lomax" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Protel EDA Forum" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2002 2:06 PM
Subject: Re: [PEDA] Protel Service Bureau in Toronto area?


> At 05:56 PM 1/29/2002 -0500, Sar Saloth wrote:
> >Hi, I am a lurker (engineer) that was considering Protel because I work
> >with a MFR that uses Protel, but I wanted them in the loop only AFTER the
> >first prototypes were built.  This list has made me realize that the
> >complexity of learning such a package won't be worth it.
> >Unfortunately, using the Protel web site and looking for service bureaus
> >reveals NONE in the area.
>
> There are probably some designers in the area who might take in work, but,
> as others have mentioned, the existing service bureaus tend to work for
> clients all over the world.
>
> There is some idea we encounter from time to time that face-to-face
> encounter is important in printed circuit design. From my experience, only
> occasionally is this true. If I were working down the hall from the
> engineer, and I have a question, am I going to get up and walk down the
> hall? Not likely. I will pick up the phone or send an e-mail, it is far
> more efficient. And that is exactly what I do with my clients, whether
they
> are in San Jose or Boston, it matters not at all that Boston in much
closer
> to where I am physically located.
>
> Recently a client really wanted face time and was willing to pay for it; I
> spent three days on-site. But in this case there was a design greatly in
> flux, requiring a *lot* of back-and-forth, with several different kinds of
> engineer all at the same time. Even then, I could have been just about as
> effective remotely.
>
> If you can find a good designer or design service, you will not care where
> they are located. That client flew me to Atlanta, paid $2400 for my time
> plus at least $1000 for expenses. Had I stayed at home, they would only
> have paid for *effective* time, probably about $1600 or less.
>
> I have another client in Boston, this is actually through a job shop. This
> client was quite sure, initially, that they wanted someone to come
on-site.
> I was living in California at the time. No other Protel designer could be
> found, however, by the job shop. So they accepted that I would work from
> California. The result? They saved a *lot* of money, because working from
> my office, they are only charged for the work that I actually do, and when
> they have even a small amount of work, they can send it to me. On site,
> they would be looking at large blocks of time. As it happened, that
> contract began, and, naturally, the engineer wasn't ready. That is
> completely normal. Had this been on site, they would have paid for a week
> of me sitting there twiddling my thumbs at quite a decent hour rate.
>
> Working remotely, I prefer to communicate by e-mail, over telephone. The
> reason is that there is automatically a record of all communication. What
> is said on the phone, a month later, who said what, who knows? The same
> goes for face-to-face meetings. If they are not reduced to writing, we may
> be left with little more than some feeling that we accomplished something,
> again, what it was, who knows? And if they are going to be reduced to
> writing, why not meet in writing in the first place?
>
> >Also, how well does Protel work with using ORCAD for the front end
> >schematics (the up to date ones, not the old SDT) assuming that I am
> >willing to create library entries for every component to match them.
>
> OrCAD Capture (or the older SDT) both will generate, as another mentioned,
> Tango format net lists which Protel accepts just fine. You won't get,
> however, the advantages of easy back-and-forth which you will get with
> Protel Schematic. Yes, there is considerable training involved with any
CAD
> program. If you know OrCAD, however, Protel should be fairly easy to
learn,
> and it is, in my opinion, substantially more powerful, particularly you
> will like the global edit facility.
>
> A good service bureau can help you get going with schematics.
>
> >btw, this list is impressive.
>
> we consider it essential.
>
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Abdulrahman Lomax
> Easthampton, Massachusetts USA
>

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