On Thu, Aug 15, 2013 at 11:08 AM, Dustin J. Mitchell <[email protected]>wrote:
> I had no awareness of the office hours (which is probably also my fault), > but that sounds like a great idea. > > No, You shouldn't blame yourself. You're most of the most actively involved non-Puppet Labs people. If you didn't know then we haven't been communicating well enough. > I struggle with the same problem in Buildbot: how do I keep people > informed and solicit meaningful feedback without overwhelming them? > > And also without slowing down the decision making process. How long is long enough to wait after putting out a proposal before making the decision and moving forward? I'm also afraid that making it too long would mean that we would have so many irons in the fire that none of them would get the attention they deserve. > One, perhaps unorthodox, technique is something you're already doing - > publicly thank and recognize community members for their contributions and > commitment. That creates a virtuous cycle of higher expectations. It's > certainly a part of why I feel culpable for not reading ARMs! > > Aha! Guilt it is then! :) > Other efforts to engage people with the new ideas may help, as well. The > ARMs are pretty deeply technical documents, so perhaps these hangouts or > office hours can be a place for users to start with a quick summary of the > ARM, and then drill down into potential concerns. > > Looking at Eric's calendar it looks like the "ARM Office Hours" are 1:30-3:30pm Pacific every Tuesday. Is that a good time? Should we open them up to more general office hours? Maybe have one of the devs available at the same time to talk about anything? We've also been making an effort to spend more time in #puppet-dev recently, which seems to be resulting in a lot more information making it out. > Luke: the bug about parameterized classes was just the thing that prodded > me to the action of sending this email (I originally typed it in Redmine, > but it was *way* off-topic!). So let's keep talk of that specific issue in > redmine. Your suggestion (errors now, lazy evaluation later) sounds > perfectly reasonable. > > I'll just leave a comment here. I think the lazy evaluation is reasonable in the respect that it makes classes consistent with defines, but I think it will make the mystery of "parse order" even worse, and, combined with the implementation of "manifest order", a nightmare :( I think all of the problems stem from the mixture of global, visible state in manifests (what is in the catalog and has been available), the global state of the system being managed (what order of resource execution matters), and laziness in both places (lazy defines and lazy resource evaluation). Programming languages that start going down the path of laziness quickly find that it is a fundamental part of every aspect of the system. Haskell hides state changes behind monads so that a lazily consistent view of the world can exist. Laziness in systems that are inherently eager quickly discover all sorts of behaviors that break down a user's expectations (try making a lazy IO processor in Java). So this is actually a perfect example of being stuck between a rock and a hard place. We can throw away part of the language and start backing into a consistent world, or we can work out a clear (if sometimes unexpected) semantic that builds on what we have right now. > Dustin > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Puppet Developers" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected]. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/puppet-dev. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > -- Andrew Parker [email protected] Freenode: zaphod42 Twitter: @aparker42 Software Developer *Join us at PuppetConf 2013, August 22-23 in San Francisco - * http://bit.ly/pupconf13* **Register now and take advantage of the Final Countdown discount - save 15%!* -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Puppet Developers" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/puppet-dev. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
