Agree on all points. Which is why I think a fork may be necessary for the longevity of this fantastic product. I really empathize with the limitations and restrictions placed on the core team and the frustrations that have to follow, but I also understand that 1&1 runs a business and to stay in business they have to do things that earn money. It almost feels like qooxdoo is a child stuck in the middle of a custody battle. Sad story really.
I've thought about taking the first step and creating a fork, but every time I do, thorough introspection tells me that I don't really have the time or energy outside of my current duties to take on such a task right now. That may (and hopefully will) change in the future, but right now it's just not possible. But to your last point, yeah the future of qooxdoo does seem uncertain, and for that reason it's not only becoming more difficult to sell it to stakeholders, I'm also finding it more difficult to even attempt to market it to stakeholders. They read buzzwords like Angular and Bootstrap all over the place and have their minds already made up, for all intents and purposes -- and I can't really argue with them; combined, you can do some pretty cool stuff with Angular and Bootstrap without much effort (Angular is a pretty decent framework...) As unfortunate as it is, the technical merits of qooxdoo over Angular/Ember/Backbone/... just aren't enough anymore - and with TypeScript and ECMA6 just around the corner, even less so. On 2014-12-05 11:33, d...@cost-savers.net wrote: > Hi ls, > >> One thing to remember, >> >> Most open source projects are the efforts of people spanning many >> miles, >> countries (and possibly continents.) Coordinating efforts over a >> public >> mailing system is very natural. >> >> Now, I may be entirely wrong on this, and I hope the qooxdoo guys will >> correct me... but, I understand that all of the core qooxdoo team is >> under one roof at the 1&1 office, communicating primarily face-to-face >> and over private corporate email. This may prove far more productive >> for their work flow (which I imagine includes more than just qooxdoo >> related tasks) than public mailing lists. This is not to say they >> couldn't open up their qooxdoo development efforts more, but I imagine >> they would need to separate the qooxdoo project from its corporate >> sponsorship of 1&1. The decision makers at 1&1 may not be open to >> that >> idea. > > The last sentence is probably one of the reasons. > > The big question is: Why is qooxdoo open source if not with an open > thriving community? What is the gain for 1&1? What is the gain when > the spread is extremely limited? Why is 1&1 spending time on the > mailing list at all? Why not use that time for internal income > bringing projects? Maybe it is the internal battle we see between 1&1 > management, who might want the developers to focus on income bringing > tasks, while the core team might want to be recognized for what they > do by open source. None of it is achieved now: > > 1. almost no help or feedback from the community > 2. less focus on internal projects -> less invoicing > 3. small community -> almost no recognition to developers or 1&1 > > As a corporate manager it is a headless decision without point not > using the community when it is open source. > >> Yes, qooxdoo is an open source project with every sense of the phrase, >> yes it can be forked and turned into something more what you expect an >> open source project to be, but since the core qooxdoo team earns their >> living developing for 1&1, the decision to make qooxdoo development >> cycles more open may currently be beyond the core developers' >> capabilities. > > For sure an internal battle based on misunderstanding and lack of > knowledge and understanding of how a community can contribute to their > own purposes as well. > >> Just something to remember when forming opinions on the state of >> qooxdoo >> development. >> >> >> I'm just super glad and happy to have what we have. :) > > We too, but definitively worried about the future as qooxdoo is > lagging behind in too many areas now! > > > Stefan > >> -ls >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On 2014-12-05 09:31, Phyo Arkar wrote: >>> Yes , exactly. >>> For example , Rethinkdb, their whole development process is very Open >>> , everything is on mailing list + github that i can follow every >>> after >>> 3 months of not reading mailing list. >>> >>> If qooxdoo is that open , many good things will happen. >>> >>> On Fri, Dec 5, 2014 at 6:00 PM, John Spackman >>> <john-li...@zenesis.com> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Hi Martin & Andreas >>>> >>>> Interesting , I am now very curious abot followings. >>>> >>>> * Thats means , this can be themed using CSS? (Like Bootstrap >>>> CSS?) >>>> * How about Layout system , will layout systems of qooxdoo will >>>> kept there ? Templating? Can we mix with other template systems >>>> (Bootstrap Templates , Zurb Foundation) ? >>>> * Will it be easier to mix with other JS? >>>> >>>> We are happy with our agile approach and the intermediate results >>>> while addressing specific challenges of the website-oriented >>>> projects. Thus we like to share this good news, well-aware that many >>>> of you won’t be able to benefit from this experimental code base >>>> any time soon. >>> >>> I find Phyo’s questions above really interesting and relevant, but I >>> can’t help thinking that if the dev team’s internal discussions >>> were on an open mailing list we’d be much more up to speed already, >>> without needing you guys to write a big article(s) with all the >>> explanations, justification, example code, etc that a major new >>> product would require. >>> >>> IMHO having an open dev-only mailing list could be constructive and >>> time saving for you, as well as stimulating for us and the project’s >>> public face. >>> >>> Regards >>> John >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>> Download BIRT iHub F-Type - The Free Enterprise-Grade BIRT Server >>> from Actuate! Instantly Supercharge Your Business Reports and >>> Dashboards >>> with Interactivity, Sharing, Native Excel Exports, App Integration & >>> more >>> Get technology previously reserved for billion-dollar corporations, >>> FREE >>> >>> http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=164703151&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk >>> [1] >>> _______________________________________________ >>> qooxdoo-devel mailing list >>> qooxdoo-devel@lists.sourceforge.net >>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/qooxdoo-devel [2] >>> >>> >>> >>> Links: >>> ------ >>> [1] >>> http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=164703151&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk >>> [2] https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/qooxdoo-devel >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>> Download BIRT iHub F-Type - The Free Enterprise-Grade BIRT Server >>> from Actuate! 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