oh yeah your right lets try again
So as many of you may know already I have a severe worry regarding the sills my car filling up with water, this is not without reason especially going by recent posts on here, however my concerns started a long time ago – just after I bought the car and discovered it had steel laminated in the sills as part of the structure and read stories about owners drilling small holes in the sill fiberglass to fit screws for later fixings only to find rusty water pouring out!, not why I bought the car. but I suppose it’s my fault not checking first, having said this id still rather have the quantum with steel in its sills and know it’s extremely strong (anyone who has read the newspaper article regarding the 2+2 hit by a lorry and several cars will know what I mean) than say a GTM rossa that is prone to flexing even when jacking up to change a wheel,!!! So seeing as this is my best option I have been slowly improving the situation by removing all pop rivets that enter into the sill / front rear bulkhead sections and either removing them full stop or replacing them with bonded in stainless steel studs instead Additionally to this id made up a list of areas where water can enter in, namely the seatbelt reel holes and the fuel filler neck if not properly sealed, also the area where the filler spout fits through he sill to the tank, on mine it was just sealed with a split / perished badly fitting rubber disk - now totally sealed with proper bonded in disks. add to this the cable for the sender was loosely placed through an oversize hole in the opposite side sill there are many potential entry points, possibly more I’ve not yet thought of, so I decided my best option was to totally seal off the steel sills with foam so no water or even condensation can get anywhere near them, especially since once water gets in it can’t easily get out. So after some research I decided the best option was to use this from Dow engineering http://www.dowautomotive.com/capabilities/product_family/betafoam.htm It will essentially seal out the sills and stiffen the structure, it’s the same stuff used in the Mazda RX8 front end for crash protection and also the new BMW M5 uses it in the rear sub frame mounts to prevent stress cracks in the structure, without the foam it cracks. Some other articles I’ve read on this type of structural foam (as it is called, not to be confused with the stuff from B&Q) are solely for the purposes of chassis stiffness The best reference I have read is here http://www.sr20-forum.com/suspension/11917-foam-filling-chassis.html The foam I’m using is the same density, if it stiffens the chassis it will be a bonus however my sole reason is to seal out moisture, this is high density closed cell foam Trial runs it has been in my mind that there could be an issue of over filling the sills and damaging the fiberglass / cracking the gel coat, the foam selected is quick rising – literally seconds to full expansion, so by the time it travels down a 4 ft. long probe it will have done most of its expanding so I’ll just be pouring in to fill the sills under the pressure of the tanks and not excess pressure via expansion, but for this to work ill need to see the foam as it expands, this will be impossible inside the void between the steel sill and the outer body sill (my main area of concern) without cutting a hole in one end, so after much head scratching I decide on the rear edge as its flatter compared to the front and easier to seal off afterwards. To mimic the sill I made a mock up using cardboard, the theory being if I can control the process enough to not damage the cardboard I’ll be fine on the car, I made up a 50mm x 150mm box section to roughly mimic the void http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o192/jindal/2012%20quantum/ 13062012365.jpg http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o192/jindal/2012%20quantum/ 13062012369.jpg Nozzles assembled and gun purged http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o192/jindal/2012%20quantum/ 13062012367.jpg PVC hose bonded to the end of the mixing nozzle http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o192/jindal/2012%20quantum/ 13062012366.jpg First fill http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o192/jindal/2012%20quantum/ 13062012370.jpg No distortion http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o192/jindal/2012%20quantum/ 13062012373.jpg http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o192/jindal/2012%20quantum/ 13062012372.jpg Thin card box http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o192/jindal/2012%20quantum/ 13062012374.jpg Again no distortion and total fill The sum total of the trial runs http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o192/jindal/2012%20quantum/ 13062012371.jpg Just in case you were wondering how strong structural foam actually is, the long box section made from single ply cardboard can now support my weight when span over 2 work tables, that’s quite a feat. The big day Firs job was to pull out all the absorbent pads and silica gel pack id put in 2 years ago http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o192/jindal/2012%20quantum/ 03072012381.jpg http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o192/jindal/2012%20quantum/ 03072012382.jpg Identify the not so obvious openings needed to be sealed Inside the boot looking in towards the inner side pocket http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o192/jindal/2012%20quantum/ 04072012383.jpg View down inside the inner side rear pocket http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o192/jindal/2012%20quantum/ 04072012384.jpg http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o192/jindal/2012%20quantum/ 04072012386.jpg Time to cut the sill rear edge, 44mm hole saw and gritted teeth http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o192/jindal/2012%20quantum/ 04072012387.jpg I chose this area as its thick enough to retain rigidity and I know of other owners who have cut this area successfully to access the rear trailing arm nuts without issue (incidentally mine are captive on a welded plate bonded into the sill 2 years ago during rebuild #1 – see rebuild thread) With a strip light held close to the outside of the sill, just enough light passes through the gel coat to illuminate the whole cavity (one of the benefits of light colour gel coat) http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o192/jindal/2012%20quantum/ 04072012390.jpg Despite all my concerns, for some reason my steel members are in near perfect condition, which is a miracle since the filler neck had spent 15 years not actually sealed to the outer bodywork and the front inner door / wing pocket had not been sealed at all just above the sill member - a common 2+2 fault http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o192/jindal/2012%20quantum/ 04072012389.jpg http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o192/jindal/2012%20quantum/ 04072012391.jpg The rusty stain at the base is just superficial and on the rear tip only Tube inserted inside with the aid of a wooden dowel to overcome the shape inside http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o192/jindal/2012%20quantum/ 04072012393.jpg http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o192/jindal/2012%20quantum/ 04072012394.jpg Nozzle assembled http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o192/jindal/2012%20quantum/ 04072012395.jpg First pass http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o192/jindal/2012%20quantum/ 04072012396.jpg Not filled to the end just yet, I had some fiberglass panels made up to the same thickness of the sills to bond on To the inner face http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o192/jindal/2012%20quantum/ 04072012404.jpg Dropped down inside the sill with fiberglass resin smeared round the inside of the hole and pulled home by the screw http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o192/jindal/2012%20quantum/ 04072012406.jpg Them foamed down behind from inside the rear side pockets, this then was concentrated to the other openings I wanted to seal but trying to not over fill the rear side pockets Inside the rear bulkhead http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o192/jindal/2012%20quantum/ 04072012398.jpg Rear boot edges http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o192/jindal/2012%20quantum/ 04072012411.jpg Can’t say I’ve not been generous http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o192/jindal/2012%20quantum/ 04072012399.jpg Quick trim http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o192/jindal/2012%20quantum/ 04072012400.jpg http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o192/jindal/2012%20quantum/ 04072012401.jpg Passenger side sill http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o192/jindal/2012%20quantum/ 04072012402.jpg First fill http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o192/jindal/2012%20quantum/ 04072012403.jpg Same process, all filled in on top, this filling the inside after bonding on the fiberglass closing paned reinforces the join by pushing the panel tight to the inside of the sill as the resin sets http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o192/jindal/2012%20quantum/ 04072012409.jpg This is by no means finished, I’ve got to sand down and shape all the foam then cover the whole areas of exposed foam with fiberglass and resin, I’m just taking a break from curling myself up in the car to do the jobs, the fiberglass and resin isn’t entirely necessary since as I mentioned before the foam is immensely strong and waterproof, but it looks untidy and will be a better job finished off with mat and resin The front Although the main area of my concern was the rear, there is still a void at the front, not as big but it’s a void none the less, I really don’t think this part was entirely necessary but where there’s air there is potentially moisture / condensation, also most 2+2 have self- tappers and pop rivets in the lower edges of the bulkhead to secure the bonnet locators and inner wheel arches, both a potential source of water ingress especially if they work loose, I’ve replaced mine with stainless studs during the last rebuild but with I’ve got the kit out I may as well 15mm hole cut, small probe inserted to meet the top of the foam that had travelled up from the sill pass, about quarter way down so it had crept up well http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o192/jindal/2012%20quantum/ 04072012415.jpg Filled then plugged with my finger to force expansion into all the nooks and crannies http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o192/jindal/2012%20quantum/ 04072012417.jpg Then tapped to 3/8 BSP http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o192/jindal/2012%20quantum/ 04072012418.jpg Brass BSP plug sand blasted to remove shiny non-stick plating a provide a rough key for resin to bond to, then the tapped void was filled with a dash of resin and the plug inserted to just below surface level http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o192/jindal/2012%20quantum/ 06072012422.jpg Again I’ll be gel coating over this once set to restore the finish, Job so far done, The next step will be to shape and contour the foam to a uniform and useable shape ready to glass in with mat and resin (already started this, pictures to follow) and I’m considering filling the inside of the steel beams with foam also to ensure the whole structure is 100% sealed but I’m still deciding on the best place to inject the foam into, To be continued…… On Jul 8, 7:59 pm, barnacle <[email protected]> wrote: > Jin, > > Your links are all forbidden... > > Neil > > > > On Saturday, July 7, 2012 8:23:21 PM UTC+1, jin wrote: > > > So as many of you may know already I have a severe worry regarding the > > sills my car filling up with water, this is not without reason > > especially going by recent posts on here, however my concerns started > > a long time ago – just after I bought the car and discovered it had > > steel laminated in the sills as part of the structure and read stories > > about owners drilling small holes in the sill fiberglass to fit screws > > for later fixings only to find rusty water pouring out!, not why I > > bought the car. but I suppose it’s my fault not checking first, having > > said this id still rather have the quantum with steel in its sills and > > know it’s extremely strong (anyone who has read the newspaper article > > regarding the 2+2 hit by a lorry and several cars will know what I > > mean) than say a GTM rossa that is prone to flexing even when jacking > > up to change a wheel,!!! > > So seeing as this is my best option I have been slowly improving the > > situation by removing all pop rivets that enter into the sill / front > > rear bulkhead sections and either removing them full stop or replacing > > them with bonded in stainless steel studs instead > > Additionally to this id made up a list of areas where water can enter > > in, namely the seatbelt reel holes and the fuel filler neck if not > > properly sealed, also the area where the filler spout fits through he > > sill to the tank, on mine it was just sealed with a split / perished > > badly fitting rubber disk - now totally sealed with proper bonded in > > disks. add to this the cable for the sender was loosely placed through > > an oversize hole in the opposite side sill there are many potential > > entry points, possibly more I’ve not yet thought of, so I decided my > > best option was to totally seal off the steel sills with foam so no > > water or even condensation can get anywhere near them, especially > > since once water gets in it can’t easily get out. > > So after some research I decided the best option was to use this from > > Dow engineering > > >http://www.dowautomotive.com/capabilities/product_family/betafoam.htm > > > It will essentially seal out the sills and stiffen the structure, it’s > > the same stuff used in the Mazda RX8 front end for crash protection > > and also the new BMW M5 uses it in the rear sub frame mounts to > > prevent stress cracks in the structure, without the foam it cracks. > > Some other articles I’ve read on this type of structural foam (as it > > is called, not to be confused with the stuff from B&Q) are solely for > > the purposes of chassis stiffness > > The best reference I have read is here > > >http://www.sr20-forum.com/suspension/11917-foam-filling-chassis.html > > > The foam I’m using is the same density, if it stiffens the chassis it > > will be a bonus however my sole reason is to seal out moisture, this > > is high density closed cell foam > > Trial runs > > it has been in my mind that there could be an issue of over filling > > the sills and damaging the fiberglass / cracking the gel coat, the > > foam selected is quick rising – literally seconds to full expansion, > > so by the time it travels down a 4 ft. long probe it will have done > > most of its expanding so I’ll just be pouring in to fill the sills > > under the pressure of the tanks and not excess pressure via expansion, > > but for this to work ill need to see the foam as it expands, this will > > be impossible inside the void between the steel sill and the outer > > body sill (my main area of concern) without cutting a hole in one end, > > so after much head scratching I decide on the rear edge as its flatter > > compared to the front and easier to seal off afterwards. > > To mimic the sill I made a mock up using cardboard, the theory being > > if I can control the process enough to not damage the cardboard I’ll > > be fine on the car, I made up a 50mm x 150mm box section to roughly > > mimic the void > > > [IMG]http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o192/jindal/2012%20quantum/ > > 13062012365.jpg[/IMG] > > > [IMG]http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o192/jindal/2012%20quantum/ > > 13062012369.jpg[/IMG] > > > Nozzles assembled and gun purged > > > [IMG]http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o192/jindal/2012%20quantum/ > > 13062012367.jpg[/IMG] > > > PVC hose bonded to the end of the mixing nozzle > > > [IMG]http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o192/jindal/2012%20quantum/ > > 13062012366.jpg[/IMG] > > > First fill > > > [IMG]http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o192/jindal/2012%20quantum/ > > 13062012370.jpg[/IMG] > > > No distortion > > > [IMG]http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o192/jindal/2012%20quantum/ > > 13062012373.jpg[/IMG] > > > [IMG]http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o192/jindal/2012%20quantum/ > > 13062012372.jpg[/IMG] > > > Thin card box > > > [IMG]http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o192/jindal/2012%20quantum/ > > 13062012374.jpg[/IMG] > > > Again no distortion and total fill > > > The sum total of the trial runs > > > [IMG]http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o192/jindal/2012%20quantum/ > > 13062012371.jpg[/IMG] > > > Just in case you were wondering how strong structural foam actually > > is, the long box section made from single ply cardboard can now > > support my weight when span over 2 work tables, that’s quite a feat. > > > The big day > > Firs job was to pull out all the absorbent pads and silica gel pack id > > put in 2 years ago > > > [IMG]http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o192/jindal/2012%20quantum/ > > 03072012381.jpg[/IMG] > > > [IMG]http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o192/jindal/2012%20quantum/ > > 03072012382.jpg[/IMG] > > > Identify the not so obvious openings needed to be sealed > > Inside the boot looking in towards the inner side pocket > > > [IMG]http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o192/jindal/2012%20quantum/ > > 04072012383.jpg[/IMG] > > > View down inside the inner side rear pocket > > > [IMG]http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o192/jindal/2012%20quantum/ > > 04072012384.jpg[/IMG] > > > [IMG]http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o192/jindal/2012%20quantum/ > > 04072012386.jpg[/IMG] > > > Time to cut the sill rear edge, 44mm hole saw and gritted teeth > > > [IMG]http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o192/jindal/2012%20quantum/ > > 04072012387.jpg[/IMG] > > > I chose this area as its thick enough to retain rigidity and I know of > > other owners who have cut this area successfully to access the rear > > trailing arm nuts without issue (incidentally mine are captive on a > > welded plate bonded into the sill 2 years ago during rebuild #1 – see > > rebuild thread) > > With a strip light held close to the outside of the sill, just enough > > light passes through the gel coat to illuminate the whole cavity (one > > of the benefits of light colour gel coat) > > > [IMG]http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o192/jindal/2012%20quantum/ > > 04072012390.jpg[/IMG] > > > Despite all my concerns, for some reason my steel members are in near > > perfect condition, which is a miracle since the filler neck had spent > > 15 years not actually sealed to the outer bodywork and the front inner > > door / wing pocket had not been sealed at all just above the sill > > member - a common 2+2 fault > > > [IMG]http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o192/jindal/2012%20quantum/ > > 04072012389.jpg[/IMG] > > > [IMG]http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o192/jindal/2012%20quantum/ > > 04072012391.jpg[/IMG] > > > The rusty stain at the base is just superficial and on the rear tip > > only > > Tube inserted inside with the aid of a wooden dowel to overcome the > > shape inside > > > [IMG]http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o192/jindal/2012%20quantum/ > > 04072012393.jpg[/IMG] > > > [IMG]http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o192/jindal/2012%20quantum/ > > 04072012394.jpg[/IMG] > > > Nozzle assembled > > > [IMG]http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o192/jindal/2012%20quantum/ > > 04072012395.jpg[/IMG] > > > First pass > > > [IMG]http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o192/jindal/2012%20quantum/ > > 04072012396.jpg[/IMG] > > > Not filled to the end just yet, I had some fiberglass panels made up > > to the same thickness of the sills to bond on > > To the inner face > > > [IMG]http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o192/jindal/2012%20quantum/ > > 04072012404.jpg[/IMG] > > > Dropped down inside the sill with fiberglass resin smeared round the > > inside of the hole and pulled home by the screw > > > [IMG]http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o192/jindal/2012%20quantum/ > > 04072012406.jpg[/IMG] > > > Them foamed down behind from inside the rear side pockets, this then > > was concentrated to the other openings I wanted to seal but trying to > > not over fill the rear side pockets > > Inside the rear bulkhead > > > [IMG]http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o192/jindal/2012%20quantum/ > > 04072012398.jpg[/IMG] > > > Rear boot edges > > > [IMG]http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o192/jindal/2012%20quantum/ > > 04072012411.jpg[/IMG] > > > Can’t say I’ve not been generous > > > [IMG]http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o192/jindal/2012%20quantum/ > > 04072012399.jpg[/IMG] > > > Quick trim > > > [IMG]http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o192/jindal/2012%20quantum/ > > 04072012400.jpg[/IMG] > > > [IMG]http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o192/jindal/2012%20quantum/ > > 04072012401.jpg[/IMG] > > > Passenger side sill > > > [IMG]http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o192/jindal/2012%20quantum/ > > 04072012402.jpg[/IMG] > > > First fill > > > [IMG]http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o192/jindal/2012%20quantum/ > > 04072012403.jpg[/IMG] > > > Same process, all filled in on top, this filling the inside after > > bonding on the fiberglass closing paned reinforces the join by pushing > > the panel tight to the inside of the sill as the resin sets > > ... > > read more » -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Quantum Owners Group" group. 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