Hi Chris, On Mar 23, 2012, at 11:22 AM, Chris Hahn wrote:
> Ernie, > > I agree that, in a closed system, present-day prophets can be vetted from > the false prophets by their character and their fruits (for short-term > prophecies). I suppose that longer term prophecies can also be tested in a > closed system if the system keeps track of the prophecies. > > I guess, this begs the question, has there ever been a > generally-acknowledged open community prophet? Jesus and Mohammad probably > come closest. Stretching back a bit, Abraham is the root prophet to both, > but is that even good enough to qualify as an open system prophet? Probably > not to Buddhists and Hindus. > > This gets back to your assertion that the recognition of prophets must be > done in a closed community by the standards recognized by that community. Better to say that those are are communities *created* by a prophet. And there are quite a lot of them (Mormonism arguably falls in that category). So I think empirically, healthy prophets either are part of a community or start a community. If a random outsider comes to you and claims to be a prophet, stone 'em. :-) -- Ernie P. > > Chris > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Dr. Ernie Prabhakar > Sent: Friday, March 23, 2012 12:05 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [RC] Prophetism then and now > > Hi Chris, > >> I, too, have been fascinated at this for years. Unfortunately, > profit-recognition tends to be subjectively in the eye of the beholder... > may the best profit salesman win. This is why unscrupulous charlatans can > gain so much traction and truly inspired profits may go unnoticed. I don't > know if there ever will be a wide spread solution to this short of a divine > Revelation. > > Actually, the solution is quite simple. "The prophetic must always be under > the authority of the pastoral." > > Like with any other prediction/confidence game, the key is to have a "closed > community" where people are held accountable for the consequences of their > words. If prophets are acknowledged but tested in both their words and > their character -- "by their fruits" -- the dangerous ones will be weeded > out quickly. > > -- Ernie P. > > > On Mar 23, 2012, at 8:16 AM, Chris Hahn wrote: > >> Billy, >> >> I think the crux of the problem is, as you said, sorting out the > charlatans from the genuine article. And the problem is exacerbated by the > exaggerated damage done by the charlatans vs. the (possibly) humble demeanor > of the true profit. >> >> I, too, have been fascinated at this for years. Unfortunately, > profit-recognition tends to be subjectively in the eye of the beholder... > may the best profit salesman win. This is why unscrupulous charlatans can > gain so much traction and truly inspired profits may go unnoticed. I don't > know if there ever will be a wide spread solution to this short of a divine > Revelation. >> >> Chris >> >> >> >> From: [email protected] >> [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf [email protected] >> Sent: Thursday, March 22, 2012 9:41 PM >> To: [email protected] >> Cc: [email protected] >> Subject: Re: [RC] Prophetism then and now >> >> Chris : >> Some years ago I carried out a major study of prophets in the >> religions of the world. Months and months of research, the topic > fascinates me. >> There is incredible variety among prophets ( or would-be prophets ). >> It is a "revelation" ( pun intended ) to study all the forms that >> prophetism can take. So I really should better qualify my views. >> >> You are quite right, of course, "God chooses" who will or won't be a >> prophet --or prophetess. Guess what I was most trying to say is that >> there needs to be reliable criteria for who is and who isn't a prophet >> since there are a multitude of claimants in today's world and there >> have been far more charlatans in the past than the genuine article. >> Still, in the here-and-now there are a good number of well-meaning >> people who sincerely believe that they are called by God for this >> purpose but who really, from every indication, are stumbling in the >> dark and not doing others any real good. >> >> In a way it is like the dispute among various Protestants about who is >> qualified to me a pastor. Some groups believe that no special learning >> is necessary and all that is required is a pure heart and inspiration. >> I simply cannot take that kind of view seriously. >> >> To use a metaphor borrowed from Thessalonians, it isn't religion that >> we are part of, but a spiritual war for the souls of mankind. Another >> metaphor then is that we need to take part in a Crusade. But there is >> all the difference in the world between the actual Crusaders who took >> Jerusalem after years of hard fighting and the much later Children's >> Crusade that ended up with all the devoted Christian children killed or > enslaved. >> Not the path we should take. >> >> My view anyway >> Billy >> >> >> ====================================== >> >> 3/22/2012 8:21:10 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, [email protected] writes: >> Billy, >> >> I agree with you about the LDS take on prophets, but I think you are > setting too rigid an Old Testamentesqe standard for prophetism. >> >> I think a prophet can be an uneducated amateur in religion. God spoke to > some improbable characters in the Old Testament. If the spirit truly > catches any give individual (and I agree that this is a relatively rare > phenomenon), and if the individual can effectively communicate the message, > then I would give that individual prophetic qualities. I go with the > Calvinist flow here that God makes the selections. >> >> Your definition.... "A genuine prophet has to go through a helluva lot >> of bad stuff to be taken seriously, has to persevere, and has to not >> only have a powerful moral message, but an original message that > contributes to knowledge." >> >> I am not sure that a prophet has to be taken seriously to be a prophet, > but I do agree that the prophet should have a message that is moral and > contributes to knowledge. >> >> Chris >> >> >> >> >> From: [email protected] >> [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf [email protected] >> Sent: Thursday, March 22, 2012 8:58 PM >> To: [email protected] >> Cc: [email protected] >> Subject: [RC] Prophetism then and now >> >> Ernie : >> Coming from a Baptist background, also with Lutheran and Buddhist >> experiences that have shaped my understanding, and more could be >> added, my standards for what constitutes valid prophetism are "high bar," > to use that metaphor. >> >> My experience with Charismatic / Bible church prophetism in action is >> very limited and, from it, is essentially negative. By way of comparison, > today's "church prophets" >> strike me as similar to a shop keeper who goes into politics, or a >> dentist, or a high school teacher. In either case it is something that >> one makes up as one goes along. And, allowing for special exceptions, >> I have extreme difficulty in accepting any such thing. Amateur hour >> in politics has no more appeal than amateur hour in matters of faith , >> at least concerning such matters that effect whole congregations or whole > populations. >> >> Hence my criticisms of LDS doctrine that holds that all male heads of > families >> are "prophets." Sure they are , and being a lifelong rancher prepares > one for >> being a prophet how ? Or for that matter a lifelong banker or lifelong > salesman. >> Same exact principle for Bible churches, etc. >> >> My standard is Old Testament or, cie vous plait, Zoroastrian --in >> which genuine prophets , or prophetesses, are uncommon in any population. >> >> A lot about Jeremiah I disagree with, and also parts of Amos and >> Isaiah 1, but these, to me are "real" prophets. As was Zarathushtra. >> In each case they took on the establishment of their day, they were >> not reluctant to challenge political power or religious authority. >> They did not do so 100% of the time, but in all cases where it was needed. >> >> Do Mormon "prophets" do any such thing ? Do church "prophets" do any >> such thing ? To ask the question is to answer it, of course not. >> >> For me that disqualifies such people from any kind of authentic > prophetism. >> >> Not sure exactly how best to read the Apostle Paul on this issue. At >> times he seems to affirm the "Charismatic" position, yet taking a very >> dim view of glossolalia, but at other times his standards seem to be >> consistent with the views in the Hebrew Bible / OT. In any case, while >> I make allowances for exceptions, basically I am OT about this. >> >> A genuine prophet has to go through a helluva lot of bad stuff to be >> taken seriously, has to persevere, and has to not only have a powerful >> moral message, but an original message that contributes to knowledge. >> Simply expressing inner spiritual feelings doesn't begin to cut it. >> >> My view, anyway >> Billy >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> Centroids: The Center of the Radical Centrist Community >> <[email protected]> >> Google Group: http://groups.google.com/group/RadicalCentrism >> Radical Centrism website and blog: http://RadicalCentrism.org >> >> -- >> Centroids: The Center of the Radical Centrist Community >> <[email protected]> >> Google Group: http://groups.google.com/group/RadicalCentrism >> Radical Centrism website and blog: http://RadicalCentrism.org > > -- > Centroids: The Center of the Radical Centrist Community > <[email protected]> > Google Group: http://groups.google.com/group/RadicalCentrism > Radical Centrism website and blog: http://RadicalCentrism.org > > -- > Centroids: The Center of the Radical Centrist Community > <[email protected]> > Google Group: http://groups.google.com/group/RadicalCentrism > Radical Centrism website and blog: http://RadicalCentrism.org -- Centroids: The Center of the Radical Centrist Community <[email protected]> Google Group: http://groups.google.com/group/RadicalCentrism Radical Centrism website and blog: http://RadicalCentrism.org
