--- Victor Zalakos <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Actually it appears to be only in America that conservatism is related > to > christianity.
Well.. yea, Pacificisum had a good shot before WW1 when the US wanted to be a nutral country in old Europes war... *This is explained in an old movie with gary Cooper called "Sargent York" York was a backwoods hunter/marksman who had a spiritual experiance that changed his life. He was drafted and had no problem sholdering a rifle and shooting straight.. But did object to "Killing/Murder" *He must have got over it somehow, because he was the most decorated soldier in WW1 useing the P17 Enfield rifle in 30.06 and a 1911a1 Colt in .45acp. > Since Jesus espoused a socialist [not godless] way of life it is strange > > that is is largely only America that has turned Christianity into > capitalism. Capitolisum and the free market seems rather to have shaped America's version of Christian ethics. The most American virtue is that you work or starve. No freeloaders... We also don't feel compelled to offer free education or Health Care or garenteed anual income.. Tho that was proposed by Richard Nixon... *not known as the most liberal of persons. This is so very different from Christianity in Western and > Eastern Europe, Australia, NZ, Africa and South America. > *Mayby that's the trade for allowing girls in Rangers?<G> -=A#1=- > That aside, > > I did read the foot of the webpage you cited - hence my comments about > books compared to peer reviewed journal articles. > > You're right - I didn't respond to your previous question. Let me do so > now. > As a christian, my model for behaviour is Jesus. > Jesus displayed a pacifist, weaponless, just and brave face to society. > > He taught peace. > He taught patience. > He taught suffering. > He taught turning the other cheek. > > He never taught "carry a gun and kill anyone that looks like they are > going > to threaten you." > Never. ever. > > You only have to look at the lives of the disciples and early christians > to > see how far the notion of "be armed to protect yourself" is from the > teaching of Jesus. If these people [disciples and early christians] > lived > with Jesus, talked with Jesus, walked with Jesus, learned from Jesus - > and > allowed themselves to be martyred, murdered, raped and pillaged. > > If this is what they did agter living with Jesus, how can we argue that > "God is for Guns" > You can't. > > You can argue that you won't stand for it, that you won't accept it, > that > you will control it [with guns]. But don't try and tell me that it's > Godly > or Christian or what Jesus would do. > > It's not. > > As far as your other questions, about my wife and children [I have five > young kids]...I don't know. > My public stance is to model Jesus. > In the heat of the moment, I don't know what I would do. > I trust that my actions would honour God. > > Like Michael, I believe that I am protected. > Yet like you, I know of Christians who have been attacked or killed. > > So - I don't claim that this is an easy thing to resolve. > I don't claim to be right. > > I do hold strong convictions about the teaching of Jesus, the reporting > of > statistics and the apparent righteousness of evil. > > I do look forward to continuing responses on this debate. > I do fear that people won't read what I [or others] have written... > But it's a lot of fun anyways :-) > > Victor. > > BTW: Why would I post a sign on the front of my door saying I do not > have a > gun? > Thats just silly. > > > > >I also believe most outposts to have marksmanship and hunter safety and > > >firearms safety since they all are merits you can earn. I did notice > you > >didn't answer my question at the last of my last post so here is > another > >one. If you are married and possibly have children and someone broke > into > >your house at night and was assaulting or trying to rape them would you > > >use deadly force to stop them and would you wish that you did have a > >firearm to stop them. Even if you are not married and have no children > you > >should be able to answer this one. Here's another one: if firearms > don't > >really deter crime then why don't you post a sign at your front door > >letting everyone know ( criminals included ) that you don't have a > firearm > >in your house. And last but not least, I may not be a highly educated > >person but I am a Police Officer so I do see first hand on how crime > works > >and that many many times > >law abiding citizens with firearms DO prevent crimes!! > > > >Travis Maddox > > > > > >Gary Kleck and Marc Gertz, "Armed Resistance to Crime: The Prevalence > and > >Nature of Self-Defense With a Gun," 86 The Journal of Criminal Law and > >Criminology, Northwestern University School of Law, 1 (Fall 1995):164. > >Dr. Kleck is a professor in the school of criminology and criminal > justice > >at Florida State University in Tallahassee. He has researched > extensively > >and published several essays on the gun control issue. His book, Point > >Blank: Guns and Violence in America, has become a widely cited source > in > >the gun control debate. In fact, this book earned Dr. Kleck the > >prestigious American Society of Criminology Michael J. Hindelang award > for > >1993. This award is given for the book published in the past two to > three > >years that makes the most outstanding contribution to criminology. > >Even those who don't like the conclusions Dr. Kleck reaches, cannot > argue > >with his impeccable research and methodology. In "A Tribute to a View I > > >Have Opposed," Marvin E. Wolfgang writes that, "What troubles me is the > > >article by Gary Kleck and Marc Gertz. The reason I am troubled is that > >they have provided an almost clear-cut case of methodologically sound > >research in support of something I have theoretically opposed for > years, > >namely, the use of a gun in defense against a criminal perpetrator. . . > . > >I have to admit my admiration for the care and caution expressed in > this > >article and this research. Can it be true that about two million > instances > >occur each year in which a gun was used as a defensive measure against > >crime? It is hard to believe. Yet, it is hard to challenge the data > >collected. We do not have contrary evidence." Wolfgang, "A Tribute to a > > >View I Have Opposed," The Journal of Criminal Law and Criminology, at > 188. > >Wolfgang says there is no "contrary evidence." Indeed, there are more > than > >a dozen national polls-- one of which was conducted by The Los Angeles > >Times-- that have found figures comparable to the Kleck-Gertz study. > Even > >the Clinton Justice Department (through the National Institute of > Justice) > >found there were as many as 1.5 million defensive users of firearms > every > >year. See National Institute of Justice, "Guns in America: National > Survey > >on Private Ownership and Use of Firearms," Research in Brief (May > 1997). > >As for Dr. Kleck, readers of his materials may be interested to know > that > >he is a member of the ACLU, Amnesty International USA, and Common > Cause. > >He is not and has never been a member of or contributor to any advocacy > > >group on either side of the gun control debate. > > > > > >>From: Victor Zalakos <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >>To: Travis Wayne <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >>Subject: Re: [RR] Bowling for Colombine > >>Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 10:28:22 +1000 > >> > >>Thanks for your input to this debate Travis. > >> > >>I guess crimes may be prevented by the use of guns, although the > website > >>you cite doesn't really provide hard facts for the statistics it > >>presents. It refers to a book by an academic rather than publicly > >>available "hard statistics" prepared by government agencies. > >> > >>Since those "statistics" have not been subject to peer review and > >>academic scrutiny, they shouldn't really be used as proof of anything > >>other than the authors opinion...which may or may not be valid. > >> > >>In fact, some of the statistics your quote appear quite unbelievable. > >> > >>For example, you say that 192,000 women who avoided a rape through the > > >>use of a firearm. > >>That is an extremely large number, given the base of rape cases in the > > >>USA in 2001 was 84,000. > >>Just doesn't seem logical. The term was meant to be "sexual assult" or > > >>which there were 249,000 in 2001... [RAINN calculation based on USDOJ > >>NCVS data, http://www.rainn.org/90seconds.html). > >> > >>Care is needed in citing statistics. > >> > >>How do I know? > >>Guess who's completing a unit on Advanced Research Methods and > Statistics === message truncated === ===== *High MORALE is the Index of effective Leadership. --------------********+********-------------------- Morale raises belief of the Leader in the follower, of the follower in the Leader, of each in themself, and both in the .....cause! __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com _______ List host: http://eBible.org/mpj/ List info: http://eBible.org/rangernet/faq.htm To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe rangernet" to [EMAIL PROTECTED] or visit http://eBible.org/subscribe.htm
