Manuel,
I think you should quit holding back and just speak your mind <big
g>.
It's interesting what different people get from what they read... I
think not being able to hear and see the writer is a major
disadvantage.
This is what I got/didn't get from Mikes post:
Tango's great as far as it goes (dynamic data driven web pages),
VB is just a more versatile language/tool. We all know VB carries a
big price in terms of becoming proficient.
Mike's empathy comment could be taken as a jab, but by the
same token he's always contributed generously to the list as well
with code to help out, so I'd choose to assume he sincerely meant
no harm.
And I don't take compliments of VB, C++, and Java as degrading to
RBase. They are complementary tools to Rbase/Oterro, like
Tango, and aren't chosen to the exclusion of RBase.
I bought R:Tango and am still trying to decide which route to go. I
believe Mike's right, in that VB & Java open up many more
possibilities... but my head hurts when I read VB instructional
books and Tango looks like a shorter hop.
And I like my Java black, no sugar.... _please_; but those days are
gone (like System V). I'm just glad to have choices and people like
you and Mike to add some light to the heat.
Ben Petersen
On 12 Jul 2001, at 22:44, Manuel de Aguiar wrote:
> Hello Mike,
> Oh BOY, here I am again, rocking the boat! Oh well I guess this post wont
> make me many friends ........
> Mike, you keep praising a language (VB) but fail to mention how Microsoft has
> screwed all the developers and end users that have loyally supported that
> platform for years. With the advent of the VB.NET platform now 90% of complex
> VB 6.0 code that developers have written will BECOMES OBSOLETE. Major costly
> rework will be needed by the developers in order to make it work with the new
> incompatible version of VB. This is a serious issue that you purposely downplay
> in your posts. This obsolesces was purposely created by Microsoft. I say
> purposely because VB6.0 has only been out for a few years. Microsoft actions
> clearly demonstrate how little they care about their developers and their
> customers. Even articles in VB Magazine, a whore of Microsoft, print the
> complaints of developers facing a tremendous cost to keep their applications
> viable caused by the incompatibility of two most recent versions. Of course, if
> you have a deployed application in VB4.0 or VB5.0 forget upgrade and a
> reasonable cost.
>
> It is very different for a users of RBase 2.11 to complaint that they have
> to spend some bucks to move to RBase for Windows. This is a change of operating
> system and the upgrade of a 12 years ++ old database engine. But for a customer
> that has finished paying a developer for an application in VB6.0 to now have to
> pay BIG BUCKS just so that their new application does not become obsolete is A
> CRIME.
>
> I can just imagine your comments about RBase Technology if version 7.0 has
> the same degree of incompatibility with version 6.5 as VB6.0 has with VB.NET.
> I have read your numerous posting on the list server where you subtly badger
> RBase by praising the superiority of VB, Your constant evangelizing of VB to
> lure developers to leave RBase and follow the yellow brick road to MS. I wonder
> WHY ARE YOU USING RBASE! In your comments, you give Rbase a small "at boy"
> with a light tap on the back with your right hand and a left hook to the gut
> with the other. Why do you do this?
>
> Today I got off the wrong side of the bed and your numerous posts praising
> VB and badgering RBase and Tango rub me the wrong way. I am sorry if I sound a
> bit irritated but I AM. You have the right to your opinions and to express them
> PUBLICLY just like I have mine. What irritates me is that this list server is
> an open list server. That means that customers, potential customers, as well as
> developers participate. I do not want any potential customer that can be MY
> CUSTOMER to be mislead by unchallenged negative commentaries. This is a
> wonderful forum to learn and improve our skills as developers where customers
> and potential customer can get a feel about the RBase Developer community. To
> see you use this RBase forum to subtly badger the product and praise Microsoft
> is irritating to me. It would be like me driving a Ford and telling the
> mechanics and the customer at the Ford dealership what a piece of crap it is and
> how great is the Honda I also own. You have the right to say anything you want
> publicly but I also have the same right to rebuttal it.
>
> I apologize to the RBase customers that participate on this list server if
> my comments has offended. Your decision to purchase and support RBase
> Technologies was and is a SOUND DECISION. If you are a potential RBase customer
> do not let these attack suede you. RBase is the most robust stable engine in
> its class out there. It is the fastest deployment platform for COMPLEX
> APPLICATIONS in the market. RBase has TREMENDOUS scalebility. Is is not design
> for force you into a more expensive system when you grow. It has tremendous
> developers tools. These tools translate into faster development and if It can
> be developed in less time IT WILL SIMPLY COST YOU LESS.
>
> I have been involved in Database Development since 1985. After
> frustrations with MSBasic and dBase, I chose RBase because it was the most
> complete and robust database environment, from a developer perspective, on the
> market. I remember how dBase was the word in everybody's lip and how this
> pseudo relational database was praise by all the "experts". RBase has been
> around for a long long time and during this time it has evolved and improved to
> the best database engine in its class in the world.
>
> RBASE CUSTOMERS YOU HAVE MADE THE RIGHT CHOICE, NOT ONLY BECAUSE OF THE PRODUCT
> YOU HAVE PURCHASED BUT THE PEOPLE THAT DRIVE THE PRODUCT.
>
> There are many many examples of how RBase Technologies has LISTENED to
> their customers and developers and deliver solutions and not excuses. All the
> years that I have been associated with Rbase the main theme has always been to
> make their products better and backward compatible. Who else has a database
> engine today that can be accessed by a computer running DOS, by another computer
> running ANY VERSION of current Windows, by users on the Internet, and soon by
> Linux computers, all at the same time? How about the recent change of a new
> command from PHONE to RPHONE. RBase Technologies recognized that once the
> command is out there, developers that implement it will be faced with additional
> time to modify the deployed code and it will impose an added expense to the end
> user to pay for the changes. Thus, they change the command IMMEDIATELY.
>
> Another example of how RBase have strode to provide its customers and
> developers backward compatibility is the R> in the windows environment. To
> accomplish what can be done from the [R>] R prompt in other languages is simply
> impossible. Oracle's and Pervassive's R> prompt counter parts are the most
> archaic and Mickey Mouse tools that I have ever had the displeasure of using.
> There are many, many, many more examples of how RBase ACTIONS have clearly
> demonstrated to me that TOP in their priorities is THE CUSTOMERS and the
> developers. I like this because it is exactly the way I handle by business
> practice.
>
> OK I am done. Now you can pounce on me. I have my arms over my head in a
> fetal position ready to take the hits. At least the acidity of my stomach has
> gone down and I did not have to bite the dog and kick the neighbor.
>
> Manuel
>
>
> Mike Byerley wrote:
>
> > The principle difference between using Tango vs. VB is Tango has one use, VB
> > many. I empathize with people that have already invested time learning
> > Tango.
>
> Left Hook to the GUT!!!!!!!
>
> > I think back to 92 and 93, a company I was working with had a person in
> > house with VBA experience and was doing a few things in Excel and Access. I
> > was adamant that I wasn't going to learn VB (at the time I was doing a
> > little work in C), what with the robustness of RBase language!
>
> A little tap on the back..... I think?
>
> > It was two years later when I changed my mind. In retrospect (isn't
> > hindsight always a little clearer) wish I had investigated a little deeper
> > so I could have made an informed decision, based in fact, instead of an
> > emotional one, based in the belief that the one big arrow in my quiver would
> > be sufficient for any work I would do.
>
> Another left hook!
>
> > With VB you speak the language of perhaps several hundred thousand
> > developers. Also, the curly brace deal from C++ is present in java script.
> > The structure of jscript is similar to C and as I have said previously,
> > jscript should also be an addition to your toolbox.
>
> Yet another left!
>
> > Hell, if I was 25 years old, I would learn Tango and also how to Tango,
> > but at this stage (only 5 years to social security. yuk!) I want to focus a
> > little more on the things I know will offer me the most utility to provide
> > the best bang for the buck for myself and my customers.
>
> A hook with a joke!
>
> >
> > mike
>
>
>----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Subject:
> Re: RBWIN, Moving a simple app to the Internet
> Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2001 11:24:43 -0500
> From: "Mike Byerley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> References: 1 , 2
>
> Apart from the obvious (web server or hosting provider that will accommodate
> your Rbase / Oterro drivers installation), you won't need anything else. I
>
> Left Hook to the Gut!!
>
>
> would go ahead and dive into VB with gusto, but I believe you would be best
> to adopt the VB.net approach (you can get the beta2 VB.net development
> environment free download or S&H for the CD, keeping in mind, I would not
> install a beta on any machine that is your primary development machine. You
> cannot predict that the Beta could be excised successfully or overwritten by
> the final version). VB.net allows you to start a project as either a
> standard Windows application or a Web based application and after that
> selection, the process in nearly identical (from my reading, not from
> experience). You create the forms and they are rendered as html at runtime
> from the compiled project that runs on the server. No web classes to mess
> with, and all the events and procedures are programmed just like the Windows
> environment (with the events and procedures tied to the form). Pretty
> slick. But you can also just go ahead with VB6 and follow the updates on
> VB.net at www.devx.com as I do and any new application you are developing,
> follow the model to make it as easy as possible to upgrade later to VB.net.
>
> mike
>
>
>
