Joe's right, of course, but also be aware that there are generational differences in the Hilbournes, which were one of the first "expanded-sizing" models, with fewer size increments. The first run or two had top tubes that were a couple centimeters longer than subsequent runs of comparable size designation. (They were really quite long, and I still regret not figuring that out sooner and getting one.)
The Rambouillets, being a bit older, were interesting for the exact opposite reason. They kind of represented the pinacle of Riv's classic, PRE-expanded-sizing era, when their bikes fit quite a bit different than anybody else's. (Much of industry has now copied them.) The Ram literature actually said they were designed with intentionally short top tubes, "to encourage people to size-up" and buy a bike in a larger size than they were accustomed to. On Thursday, May 27, 2021 at 4:09:44 PM UTC-6 Joe Bernard wrote: > The easiest way to size the two frames is by effective toptube. You'll > drive yourself crazy trying to figure out how seattube sizing translates > between Toyo and Taiwan Rivs. > > > > On Thursday, May 27, 2021 at 2:46:15 PM UTC-7 robt.s...@gmail.com wrote: > >> Jimmy...both frames have level top tubes and my saddle height is 79cm. >> >> On Wednesday, May 26, 2021 at 8:20:20 PM UTC-4 Jimmy Warren wrote: >> >>> That's interesting, because the Rambouillet TT is also 60 cm. Whatever >>> your handlebar height is on the Poprad and JPWeigle, for the same stem, I'd >>> have to think it'll be a lot higher with a 64 cm Ram. In addition to it >>> being a bigger frame, Rams bring the handlebar up compared to level top >>> tubes by virtue of that 2 degree TT rise. Also, the head tube lug is >>> vertically extended, which adds even more height. Do the Poprad and >>> JPWeigle have level top tubes? Also, do you know your preferred saddle >>> height. Saddle height can be a great indicator of a Riv that fits. >>> >>> Mine is 81 cm, and a 64 cm Ram is almost just right for me. 65 cm is >>> probably my ideal, but they never made that. >>> >>> And my best size for a 6 degree Riv is 61.5 cm. >>> >>> On Wed, May 26, 2021 at 3:40 PM bob saunders <robt.s...@gmail.com> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Wow...thanks for the help as it sounds like I need to do some homework. >>>> I have an offer of a 64cm Ram, but I am trying to equate the geometry to >>>> my >>>> other bikes...a 59cm Lemond Poprad and a 57.5 x 60 JPWeigle roadie. The >>>> Weigle’s top tube length is a better fit for me on longer rides. >>>> >>>> On Monday, May 24, 2021 at 5:29:19 PM UTC-4 Jimmy Warren wrote: >>>> >>>>> Ram: 2 degrees of TT upslope >>>>> Sam: 6 degrees of TT upslope >>>>> >>>>> At that frame size, every one degree adds 1 cm of head tube height. So >>>>> on paper, the handlebar height of a 60 cm Sam is about the same as a 64 >>>>> cm >>>>> Ram. >>>>> >>>>> The "new" sizing regime of Rivs with the 6 degrees of TT upslope was >>>>> new around when the Sams were introduced, maybe 13 years ago? Bombadil >>>>> was >>>>> also the new bike bike around that time that pioneered the new greater TT >>>>> angle. >>>>> >>>>> Before that, the models tended to be around 2 degrees. Ram was never >>>>> made again after the "expanded" frame geometry was unleashed, so Rams are >>>>> all 2 degrees. (AHH's, on the other hand, have come in both styles, >>>>> depending on when made. And logic says the same is true of Atlantis, >>>>> although in the old days, the Atlantis was a wild one with 2.5 degrees >>>>> (!) >>>>> of TT upslope. For AHH and Atlantis, the switch to Made In Taiwan is also >>>>> the switch from low angle to high angle.) >>>>> >>>>> On Mon, May 24, 2021 at 8:13 AM James Warren <jimmac...@gmail.com> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Eric is right. I've owned both a 64 cm Ram and a 60 cm Sam and both >>>>>> fit me. >>>>>> >>>>>> On Mon, May 24, 2021 at 7:30 AM Eric Daume <eric...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> I think those two frames would fit very differently. The Ram has >>>>>>> traditional road geo, so maybe a 64cm Ram would be equivalent to a 60cm >>>>>>> Sam. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Eric >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Friday, May 21, 2021, bob saunders <robt.s...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Hello...I’m looking for a 60cm Rambouillet or Sam >>>>>>>> Hillborne...complete bike or frame is ok. Located in the PNW but >>>>>>>> shipping >>>>>>>> work too. Thanks >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>>>> Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>>>> send an email to rbw-owners-bun...@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>>> To view this discussion on the web visit >>>>>>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/8af082fd-0fbb-42a6-972b-454be2001b88n%40googlegroups.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/8af082fd-0fbb-42a6-972b-454be2001b88n%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> >>>>>>>> . >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>>> Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. >>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>>> send an email to rbw-owners-bun...@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>> To view this discussion on the web visit >>>>>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/CAHFNW5Bj2rT24_d6qPCV1avkDLZOtTMUxx1GKci21sR0tR_L7A%40mail.gmail.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/CAHFNW5Bj2rT24_d6qPCV1avkDLZOtTMUxx1GKci21sR0tR_L7A%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> >>>>>>> . >>>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>> Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>> an email to rbw-owners-bun...@googlegroups.com. >>>> >>> To view this discussion on the web visit >>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/3abdd258-50bd-4123-b705-06fc4096f122n%40googlegroups.com >>>> >>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/3abdd258-50bd-4123-b705-06fc4096f122n%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> >>>> . >>>> >>> -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/2a912fb9-2abe-4c06-b632-666c1845c02fn%40googlegroups.com.
