I've followed this thread closely and I also re-read Peter White's fit 
guide. I still feel like bike fitting is dark magic, but here are some 
interesting findings.

Following Garth's comment: "Moving your saddle further back than your 
optimal position over the bottom bracket for the sake of more forward reach 
is "going the wrong direction" !"  I decided to take the time to measure 
and compare my bikes's touch points. Garth, I think you nailed it! 

I normally just "shove my brooks all the way back" which is the standard 
advise I got. Yesterday, I found that the horizontal distance between my 
saddle and the pedals was a whopping 2" longer on my Gallop than on my 
Hunqapillar. I then pushed my saddle forward as far as I could go which got 
me very close to the horizontal distance between saddle and pedal that I 
wanted.

I went for a quick ride - the Gallop is in the middle of a cockpit swap and 
I didn't have a shifter cable long enough, so it wasn't a full test ride - 
but I felt much more comfortable. I'll report more in the next few days, 
but I think the old advise to "shove my brooks all the way back" might not 
apply to the newer slacker, Riv geometries.

Max

On Sunday, June 25, 2023 at 8:23:45 PM UTC-4 Patrick Moore wrote:

> Shee-*IT.* I meant to say: He counseled shoving the saddle back and *lowering 
> it* while raising and shortening the stem.
>
> On Sun, Jun 25, 2023 at 6:09 PM Patrick Moore <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> ... I ... complained to Grant that I felt that I was "losing the pedal 
>> stroke" over top dead center.* He counseled shoving the saddle back and 
>> raising* it while raising and shortening the stem. Pedaling Nirvana; 
>> comfort as well as power, not to mention handling back to normal
>>
>

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