As a side note to this conversation, this brings up an advantage of the Tesla Powerwall battery – my understanding is that it will turn off immediately at the Powerwall battery when disconnected at the inverter. This is another nice benefit of having DC-to-DC conversion smarts in the Powerwall.
-August Luminalt *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:[email protected]] *On Behalf Of *[email protected] *Sent:* Tuesday, March 15, 2016 3:23 PM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown MidNite's Rapid Shutdown Sustems are UL listed. If you have any questions, please email Ryan at [email protected]. Ryan said we were actually having a webinar on this subject later this week, too. No solenoids so no night tare loss on the battery side or the PV side. ***** ***** ***** In addition, Robin says... Ray, although there is some risk of your neighbors kids shutting off your refrigerator, we cannot control that. MidNite does make very elegant solutions for your RSS issue. We are UL listed and recently reduced the price of our Birdhouse system. When it comes to battery based shut off systems, we are your solution. Have you installed one of our Birdhouse systems? If not, contact us and we will get you set up. Thanks, Robin Gudgel -James Jefferson Jarvis wrote.... >>>Larry, >>>Any details on these $120 solenoids? Are they latching coil, or will we be burning another 5 to 20 watts per device to keep them closed? >>>I did a quick search of Midnite's site and got no relevant hits with relay, solenoid, or contactor as search terms. >>>Thanks, >>>-James Jefferson Jarvis I find that Google works much better for most web site searches. boB On 3/15/2016 2:16 PM, Ray Walters wrote: So Pat, you stated "*There are simple ways to work around these issues*". Actually, the major off grid inverter manus do not have a solution for this ( Magnum, Outback, Exeltech, Schneider, SMA) Can you show us an example of a UL listed system that has multiple inverters (over 8 kW cont.), with rapid disconnects within 5 ft? I'm really looking for actual solutions here folks, and I haven't seen a single system ever built, much less even a simple wiring diagram that would comply with this new requirement. (*690.12(5) Equipment that performs the rapid shutdown shall be listed and identified*) Also, for every improvement comes a whole new set of problems. Your "*What would I do in my own house?*" is an excellent point. Personally, I would not want the neighbor's kids to be able to shut off my refrigerator or grandma's breathing machine with the touch of an outside accessible, unlockable button. I've been cobbling together code compliant systems for 2 decades, so yes, I'm sure I could scavenge relays from the EV world to do this. But the days of inventing custom (non UL) solutions to meet new requirements should be over. If this is to be a national requirement, the industry should be mature enough to offer multiple solutions for code compliance. I'm all for improving safety, but it needs to be done as an industry: together, incrementally. R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 3/15/2016 1:48 PM, Patrick Shortell wrote: Dear List, Maybe it's an over simplistic opinion, but shouldnt all sources be disconnected rapidly in an emergency situation. We can always do better than what the code requires. I get frustrated when people go to the book, (and try to hide behind the text). instead of thinking through real life scenarios. There are simple ways to work around these issues. I find when something is questionable, Ill call the AHJ and get his approval First. What would I do in my own house? What if someone thought all the power was off when they dragged a hoseline into my basement. My two cents Pat On Tue, Mar 15, 2016 at 1:10 PM, <[email protected]> wrote: Ray, I guess I have to step in after that acknowledgement. PV system circuit is a self-defined term and therefore cannot be defined unless you are going to develop a meaning that is different from the self-definition. It means ANY circuit in a PV system. This includes battery and stand-alone circuits in the 2014 NEC. The language of the 2014 NEC was a compromise between the fire service and the PV industry. Originally, the language required essentially module-level shutdown. I raised the concern with the PV industry to get them involved since most were not paying attention at the time. This language was developed and intended to cover all circuits in a PV system. In the 2014 NEC, batteries are part of a PV system and therefore fall under this requirement. In the 2017 NEC, we were very careful to carve out all batteries and loads, that were previously part of PV systems, and place them in their own articles. Don't shoot the messenger on this one and don't think for a minute that I alone made this requirement or am alone in interpreting it in this way. I did author this compromise with other representatives of the PV industry so I think I know what the intent was. It is understandably difficult for battery systems and I would try to keep battery circuits as short as possible. The 5-feet was intended to match the requirement of 690.71(H)--which is further evidence of the intent of the 2014 NEC. The 2017 NEC removes batteries from the requirement, but they still cannot backfeed the PV array. Energy storage systems (Article 706) will have their own requirements in time--that is guaranteed. Bill. -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Ray Walters Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2016 9:02 AM To: RE-wrenches <[email protected]> Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown Greetings Esteemed Wrenches: I've just heard back from our inspector here in Colorado, and we are still being required to disconnect the batteries under 690.12. No where in 690.12 are batteries mentioned, nor in the appropriate 690.71 section that deals with batteries. The entire reasoning behind this is based on a single article written by a single person: Bill Brooks. I have contacted both Outback and Magnum on this issue, and their engineers are unaware that rapid shutdown applies. My interpretation is that I could install an inverter and battery system that was charged from a generator, and we would not need any rapid shutdown at all. But according to Bill, as soon as I put a single solar module into the system, suddenly the entire system becomes PV? The problem lies with the term 'PV System circuit' used in 690.12. 690.2 Defines 'PV Output circuit', and 'PV source circuit', but there is no 'PV system circuit' defined. 690.12 therefore uses an undefined term. Our design uses 2 inverters, so if we used Midnite's E panel with their remote trip breakers, the 2nd inverter would be more than 5 ft from the batteries. If we used Magnum or Outback DC disconnects (that would comply with the 5 ft rule specified in 690.71) they don't offer remote trip. We have a Midnite Rapid disconnect Combiner on the roof with the Birdhouse, so we are complying with 690.12, it should not be applied to batteries though. Thanks, -- R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: [email protected] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: [email protected] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Patrick A. Shortell *Licensed Master Electrician* *Certified Solar Installer* 71 Oregon Street Long Beach N.Y. 11561 cell: 516-477-0221 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: [email protected] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: [email protected] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
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