Re: [RE-wrenches] Soft Start Modules for Well and Sewage Pumps?

Fri, 26 Jul 2019 13:17:37 -0700 

Hey Jerry,
I think the issue is capacitor start motors can't handle VFDs.  but there are other approaches to soft start - still learning.  Thanks for the reference! 

Best,

Jeff

Jerry Shafer wrote on 7/26/19 12:59 PM:


Wrenches

I have quite a few freq drives on single phase, the controller came 
from ABB, the pic attached is reference only, it was for a AC chiller 
grid connected not off grid but the controller works either way

Jerry


On Fri, Jul 26, 2019, 12:47 PM Jeff Clearwater 
<[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> 
wrote:


    Thanks Chris!

    Unfortunately I'm finding that unless you build an integrated
    control - motor combo that can soft start like Franklin did - the
    majority of single phase motors can't use soft start.  That is
    probably a 3-phase motor in that pump that they have an inverter
    for in the controls - or they used a shaded pole or spit capacitor
    single phase motor which can use soft start - at least that is
    what my initial research and phone call to the pump control
    company has thus far revealed.

    Apparently you can play with the voltage-amperage tradeoffs when
    you have the 3 magnetic fields interaction - single phase doesn't
    allow you much room to wiggle.

    I do see single phase soft-starts on the market - still
    researching but that's my initial findings.

    Anyone know differently?

    Thanks!

    Jeff



    [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> wrote on
    7/26/19 9:27 AM:


    Here at the Oasis home/office, we have a Goulds 3 hp 240VAC soft
    start pump (#18GS30, w/ Franklin motor HS09970 and #3AS30 Aquavar
    Solo controller); it’s been running off of my 2011 Radian GS8048
    since 2016, when I had to drill a new well (the water table is
    dropping) and pump from about 300 ft. depth.I have 3500 ft. of
    drip irrigation, a big garden and the usual domestic water
    loads.It’s worked flawlessly since its inception, and I cannot
    speak more highly of Goulds pumps.My first one lasted 23 years
    (it was a 1.5HP model).

    Best,

    Chris Daum

    Oasis Montana Inc.

    406-777-4309 or 4321

    406-777-4309 fax

    www.oasismontana.com <http://www.oasismontana.com>

    *From:*RE-wrenches <[email protected]>
    <mailto:[email protected]> *On Behalf Of
    *Dana
    *Sent:* Friday, July 26, 2019 9:34 AM
    *To:* 'Jeff Clearwater' <[email protected]>
    <mailto:[email protected]>; 'RE-wrenches'
    <[email protected]>
    <mailto:[email protected]>
    *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Soft Start Modules for Well and
    Sewage Pumps?

    Yes I have used soft starts offgrid with SW & VFX for 15+ years,
    in spite of doing load evaluations & others installing what ever
    they normally used. It has been a great rescue device. Well pump,
    2 dish washers, booster pump, etc.

    Dana Orzel                              Great Solar Works, Inc.

    *C - 208.721.7003 [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>*

    Idaho Contractor - # 028765         Idaho PV # 028374

    NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.com <http://www.solarwork.com>

    _"Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" _

    *P*Please consider the environment before printing this email.

    *From:*RE-wrenches <[email protected]
    <mailto:[email protected]>> *On Behalf Of
    *Jeff Clearwater
    *Sent:* Friday, July 26, 2019 8:04 AM
    *To:* RE-wrenches <[email protected]
    <mailto:[email protected]>>
    *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Soft Start Modules for Well and Sewage
    Pumps?

    Hey Wrenches,

    Anyone have success using soft-start modules on well and sewage
    pumps to lower the surge for off-grid inverters?

    The baby we are trying to tame is a 2 HP 15 amp, 53 LRA Omnivore
    Grinder Pump - LSG200 series - single phase 230 Vac.

    Thanks!

    Jeff


    ~~~~~~~~~~~

    Jeff Clearwater
    Village Power Design
    linkedin <https://www.linkedin.com/in/jeff-clearwater-0622a312/>
    www.villagepowerdesign.com <http://www.villagepowerdesign.com>
    cell - 413-559-9763
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


    Jeff Clearwater wrote on 7/26/19 6:32 AM:

        *Thanks Ray and Jerry,

        Great to hear from you both with your years of combined
        experience :)*

        *So yes looking at the 5 sec has me switching back to a
        trusty Radian - _even then from what you are saying it may
        not work._*

        And you are right Ray -  Outback is careful to rate the
        "overload capability" in KVA rather than KW due most likely
        to voltage sag of course.

        *So this 53 LRA 2 HP motor - if I can only trust the 5 second
        (50 A) might not start - especially with other loads on the
        system?*

        *RADIAN SURGE RATINGS:*

        *Maximum Output Current*
        1 ms peak 100 Amps AC at 240 VAC, 200 Amps AC at 120 VAC
        100 ms RMS 70.7 Amps AC at 240 VAC

        *Overload Capability*
        100 ms surge 16.97 kVa
        5 seconds 12 kVa
        30 minute 9 kVa

        *Other's experience with 2 HP sewage pump or well pump motors
        on a Radian?

        Thanks!

        Jeff*


        Ray wrote on 7/25/19 5:48 PM:

            I only look at the 5 sec and 30 sec surge ratings to get
            an idea what an inverter can really do in the real
            world.  All those millisecond ratings/ in rush current
            specs won't get a pump or motor started, and will
            basically just get you into trouble. The reason they have
            those ratings in amps and not watts, is that the voltage
            craters during that 100mS surge.

            I can't tell you how many times we tried to start a pump,
            compressor, or large table saw, and the inverter just
            shut off, even though the "in rush current" was within
            the theoretical inverter capacity.  Actual Wrench list
            testimonials are much more valuable than those arcane specs.

            Ray Walters

            Remote Solar

            303 505-8760

            On 7/25/19 5:15 PM, Jeff Clearwater wrote:

                *Hey There Wrenches,*

                So be advised that after a little research the SW
                dual stack will NOT double the surge ratings of a
                single SW.

                But that brings me to my second question:
                *
                What inverter surge rating should one refer to when
                looking at maximum Inrush or LRA - 1ms?  100ms?  1 sec?*

                *Your engineering wisdom welcomed!*

                Thanks,

                Jeff



                Jeff Clearwater wrote on 7/23/19 8:27 PM:

                    Thanks for the tip!  I'll check the firmware.

                    Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote on 7/22/19 9:11 AM:

                        Hi Jeff,

                        I am not going to guess if this will work, it
                        should.  I use XW's because they start
                        anything I have come across.

                        If you do this, make sure but SW's have the
                        latest and same firmware. There were problems
                        with stacked SW's early on in their development.

                        **Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar**

                        **"we go where powerlines don't"**

                        **http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/**

                        **e-mail [email protected]
                        <mailto:[email protected]>**

                        **text 209 813 0060**

                        On Mon, 22 Jul 2019 07:26:07 -0700, Jeff
                        Clearwater <[email protected]>
                        <mailto:[email protected]> wrote:

                            Hey Esteemed Wrenches,

                            So I recently built a power trailer with
                            a single 4 KW (4048) Schneider SW for a
                            client with a moderate cabin lifestyle.

                            But he lives on a high hill and even
                            though his 2 HP Macerator is only rated
                            at 15 amps continuous that baby starts up
                            with a whopping kick - probably close to
                            or at it's 53 Amps Locked Rotor rating.

                            *The SW has the following surge capability:*

                            *SW 4048 Rated @ 240 Volts:*
                            Continuous - 15.2 Amps 3700 Watts
                            30 Minutes - 18.3 Amps 4400 Watts
                            5 Secs - 29.2 Amps 7000 Watts
                            Max (100ms?) - 41 Amps - 9840 Watts

                            Can I be confidant that 2 stacked SWs
                            will start this baby?

                            *Any experience with similar macerators -
                            or simply educated guesses?
                            *
                            Thanks!

                            Jeff


                        -- 


                        **Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar**

                        **"we go where powerlines don't"**

                        **http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/**

                        **e-mail [email protected]
                        <mailto:[email protected]>**

                        **text 209 813 0060**




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    -- 
    ~~~~~~~~~~~


    Jeff Clearwater
    Village Power Design
    linkedin <https://www.linkedin.com/in/jeff-clearwater-0622a312/>
    www.villagepowerdesign.com <http://www.villagepowerdesign.com>
    cell - 413-559-9763
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



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