Re: [RE-wrenches] Soft Start Modules for Well and Sewage Pumps?

Mon, 29 Jul 2019 09:55:08 -0700 

Hey Dave,
Okay I'm hearing you now after you said it twice! :)  So let's compare Radian and XW: 

Radian:

Continuous - 33.3 Amps - 8000 Watts
30minute - 9 kVA - 37.5 Amps
5 Secs - 12 KVA - 50 Amps
100 mS RMS - 16.97 kVA - 70.7 AMPs
1 mS Peak - 100 Amps

XW:

Continuous -  28 Amps 6800 Watts
30 Minutes -  35 Amps 8500 Watts
5 Minutes - 45.8 Amps 11,000 Watts
60 Secs - 52 Amps - 12000 Watts
5 Secs - ?
1 Sec - ?
100 ms - ?


So I'm not seeing it from these figures - but I don't have the 5 Secs 
and smaller.  Do Schneider and Radian offer curves for this perhaps?


Anyone else want to chime in on real field experience comparisons?

Thanks!

Jeff





Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote on 7/29/19 9:01 AM:


This is why I use the XW! They start just about anything and they are 
one 6.8KW inverter, not multiple like the Radian. I do like the radian 
and use it. For large motors, XW is hard to beat. The battery needs to 
be at least 800 AH for this large motor app.



*Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" 
http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail [email protected] 
<mailto:[email protected]> text 209 813 0060*



On Mon, 29 Jul 2019 08:49:39 -0700, Jeff Clearwater 
<[email protected]> wrote:



Hi Chris,


Thanks so much for the reference.  I still am at an impasse.  I have 
an unhappy customer and want to proceed cautiously - Tech support at 
Radian will only promise 1/2hp per 4 KW radian module - so only 1.5 
HP for an 8048 - It's a 2 HP but as  you know HP is not a definitive 
determinant - field experience shows we can do more but it depends on 
the situation.  I asked Outback engineers if they could work with me 
in taking field data like inrush etc to determine more exactly.  This 
particular sewage macerator has high head.



I called the control panel manufacturer for the sewage pump 
(attached) and they said they couldn't add soft start to a single 
phase unit.  Internet research shows you can't do much with single 
phase with the standard VFD (variable frequency drive) but there are 
other electronic approaches but I'm not sure they will work with the 
existing control panel.


Anyone else with experience that might be relevant?  Thanks!

And thanks again Chris I will make that call - Thanks!

Jeff

Chris Schaefer wrote on 7/29/19 8:39 AM:


I've been following this post with great interest. I was looking at 
an off-grid project a couple years back that was being run entirely 
by large diesel generators and had two massive AC units where the 
LRA was 104 Amps. I found a company that makes what amounts to a 
soft start. I don't recall the engineer/owners name but he was very 
knowledgeable. His number is 813-601-0947 and web site is 
gen-pro.biz <http://gen-pro.biz>. To finish the client never made 
the switch from generator to solar so I can't say if these units 
work. Hope this provides another option.

Sincerely,
Christopher

/229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870
//5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424

//www.solarandwindfx.com <http://www.solarandwindfx.com/> ~ E-mail: 
[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>/


/
/


Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, 
"democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who 
are willing to work and give to those who would not."




On Fri, Jul 26, 2019 at 4:15 PM Jeff Clearwater 
<[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> 
wrote:


    Hey Jerry,

    I think the issue is capacitor start motors can't handle VFDs. 
    but there are other approaches to soft start - still learning.
    Thanks for the reference!

    Best,

    Jeff

    Jerry Shafer wrote on 7/26/19 12:59 PM:


    Wrenches
    I have quite a few freq drives on single phase, the controller
    came from ABB, the pic attached is reference only, it was for a
    AC chiller grid connected not off grid but the controller works
    either way
    Jerry

    On Fri, Jul 26, 2019, 12:47 PM Jeff Clearwater
    <[email protected]
    <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:

        Thanks Chris!

        Unfortunately I'm finding that unless you build an
        integrated control - motor combo that can soft start like
        Franklin did - the majority of single phase motors can't
        use soft start.  That is probably a 3-phase motor in that
        pump that they have an inverter for in the controls - or
        they used a shaded pole or spit capacitor single phase
        motor which can use soft start - at least that is what my
        initial research and phone call to the pump control company
        has thus far revealed.

        Apparently you can play with the voltage-amperage tradeoffs
        when you have the 3 magnetic fields interaction - single
        phase doesn't allow you much room to wiggle.

        I do see single phase soft-starts on the market - still
        researching but that's my initial findings.

        Anyone know differently?

        Thanks!

        Jeff



        [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>
        wrote on 7/26/19 9:27 AM:


        Here at the Oasis home/office, we have a Goulds 3 hp
        240VAC soft start pump (#18GS30, w/ Franklin motor HS09970
        and #3AS30 Aquavar Solo controller); it's been running off
        of my 2011 Radian GS8048 since 2016, when I had to drill a
        new well (the water table is dropping) and pump from about
        300 ft. depth.I have 3500 ft. of drip irrigation, a big
        garden and the usual domestic water loads.It's worked
        flawlessly since its inception, and I cannot speak more
        highly of Goulds pumps.My first one lasted 23 years (it
        was a 1.5HP model).

        Best,

        Chris Daum

        Oasis Montana Inc.

        406-777-4309 or 4321

        406-777-4309 fax

        www.oasismontana.com <http://www.oasismontana.com>

        *From:*RE-wrenches
        <[email protected]>
        <mailto:[email protected]> *On
        Behalf Of *Dana
        *Sent:* Friday, July 26, 2019 9:34 AM
        *To:* 'Jeff Clearwater' <[email protected]>
        <mailto:[email protected]>; 'RE-wrenches'
        <[email protected]>
        <mailto:[email protected]>
        *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Soft Start Modules for Well
        and Sewage Pumps?

        Yes I have used soft starts offgrid with SW & VFX for 15+
        years, in spite of doing load evaluations & others
        installing what ever they normally used. It has been a
        great rescue device. Well pump, 2 dish washers, booster
        pump, etc.

        Dana Orzel                              Great Solar Works,
        Inc.

        *C - 208.721.7003 [email protected]
        <mailto:[email protected]>*

        Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374

        NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.com
        <http://www.solarwork.com>

        "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988"

        *P*Please consider the environment before printing this email.

        *From:*RE-wrenches
        <[email protected]
        <mailto:[email protected]>> *On
        Behalf Of *Jeff Clearwater
        *Sent:* Friday, July 26, 2019 8:04 AM
        *To:* RE-wrenches <[email protected]
        <mailto:[email protected]>>
        *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Soft Start Modules for Well and
        Sewage Pumps?

        Hey Wrenches,

        Anyone have success using soft-start modules on well and
        sewage pumps to lower the surge for off-grid inverters?

        The baby we are trying to tame is a 2 HP 15 amp, 53 LRA
        Omnivore Grinder Pump - LSG200 series - single phase 230 Vac.

        Thanks!

        Jeff


        ~~~~~~~~~~~

        Jeff Clearwater
        Village Power Design
        linkedin
        <https://www.linkedin.com/in/jeff-clearwater-0622a312/>
        www.villagepowerdesign.com <http://www.villagepowerdesign.com>
        cell - 413-559-9763
        ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


        Jeff Clearwater wrote on 7/26/19 6:32 AM:

            *Thanks Ray and Jerry,

            Great to hear from you both with your years of
            combined experience :)*

            *So yes looking at the 5 sec has me switching back to
            a trusty Radian - even then from what you are saying
            it may not work.*

            And you are right Ray -  Outback is careful to rate
            the "overload capability" in KVA rather than KW due
            most likely to voltage sag of course.

            *So this 53 LRA 2 HP motor - if I can only trust the 5
            second (50 A) might not start - especially with other
            loads on the system?*

            *RADIAN SURGE RATINGS:*

            *Maximum Output Current*
            1 ms peak 100 Amps AC at 240 VAC, 200 Amps AC at 120 VAC
            100 ms RMS 70.7 Amps AC at 240 VAC

            *Overload Capability*
            100 ms surge 16.97 kVa
            5 seconds 12 kVa
            30 minute 9 kVa

            *Other's experience with 2 HP sewage pump or well pump
            motors on a Radian?

            Thanks!

            Jeff*


            Ray wrote on 7/25/19 5:48 PM:

                I only look at the 5 sec and 30 sec surge ratings
                to get an idea what an inverter can really do in
                the real world.  All those millisecond ratings/ in
                rush current specs won't get a pump or motor
                started, and will basically just get you into
                trouble.  The reason they have those ratings in
                amps and not watts, is that the voltage craters
                during that 100mS surge.

                I can't tell you how many times we tried to start
                a pump, compressor, or large table saw, and the
                inverter just shut off, even though the "in rush
                current" was within the theoretical inverter
                capacity.  Actual Wrench list testimonials are
                much more valuable than those arcane specs.

                Ray WaltersRemote Solar303 505-8760

                On 7/25/19 5:15 PM, Jeff Clearwater wrote:

                    *Hey There Wrenches,*

                    So be advised that after a little research the
                    SW dual stack will NOT double the surge
                    ratings of a single SW.

                    But that brings me to my second question:
                    *
                    What inverter surge rating should one refer to
                    when looking at maximum Inrush or LRA - 1ms? 
                    100ms?  1 sec?*

                    *Your engineering wisdom welcomed!*

                    Thanks,

                    Jeff



                    Jeff Clearwater wrote on 7/23/19 8:27 PM:

                        Thanks for the tip! I'll check the firmware.

                        Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote on
                        7/22/19 9:11 AM:

                            Hi Jeff,

                            I am not going to guess if this will
                            work, it should.  I use XW's because
                            they start anything I have come across.

                            If you do this, make sure but SW's
                            have the latest and same firmware.
                            There were problems with stacked SW's
                            early on in their development.

                            **Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar**

                            **"we go where powerlines don't"**

                            **http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/**

                            **e-mail [email protected]
                            <mailto:[email protected]>**

                            **text 209 813 0060**

                            On Mon, 22 Jul 2019 07:26:07 -0700,
                            Jeff Clearwater
                            <[email protected]>
                            <mailto:[email protected]>
                            wrote:

                                Hey Esteemed Wrenches,

                                So I recently built a power
                                trailer with a single 4 KW (4048)
                                Schneider SW for a client with a
                                moderate cabin lifestyle.

                                But he lives on a high hill and
                                even though his 2 HP Macerator is
                                only rated at 15 amps continuous
                                that baby starts up with a
                                whopping kick - probably close to
                                or at it's 53 Amps Locked Rotor
                                rating.

                                *The SW has the following surge
                                capability:*

                                *SW 4048 Rated @ 240 Volts:*
                                Continuous - 15.2 Amps 3700 Watts
                                30 Minutes - 18.3 Amps 4400 Watts
                                5 Secs - 29.2 Amps 7000 Watts
                                Max (100ms?) - 41 Amps - 9840 Watts

                                Can I be confidant that 2 stacked
                                SWs will start this baby?

                                *Any experience with similar
                                macerators - or simply educated
                                guesses?
                                *
                                Thanks!

                                Jeff


                            -- 


                            **Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar**

                            **"we go where powerlines don't"**

                            **http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/**

                            **e-mail [email protected]
                            <mailto:[email protected]>**

                            **text 209 813 0060**




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        -- 
        ~~~~~~~~~~~


        Jeff Clearwater
        Village Power Design
        linkedin
        <https://www.linkedin.com/in/jeff-clearwater-0622a312/>
        www.villagepowerdesign.com <http://www.villagepowerdesign.com>
        cell - 413-559-9763
        ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



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--

Chris Schaefer's
<http:www.solarandwindfx.com>
/Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870
//5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424

//www.solarandwindfx.com <http://www.solarandwindfx.com> ~ E-mail: 
[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>/


/
/


Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, 
"democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who 
are willing to work and give to those who would not."



--

  
  



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