Wrenches, Wow have we all gone done the rabbit hole here, not all NEMA 3 can can be mounted in any position other that upright with entre points only from below, laying a box neatly flat on the rail may not have any drains where needed, also make sure the mounting holes are sealed. Some inspectors want the box under a panel and some require it exposed. In Hawaii l had inspectors require MC-4 at every wire connection not including grounds everywhere and yes we complied. Easier to comply than fight sometimes because there is always a next time Fun times
On Wed, Nov 12, 2025, 11:25 AM Brian Mehalic via RE-wrenches < [email protected]> wrote: > Well this isn’t a totally direct answer to questions on this thread, but I > did want to address wet locations. (I do think the text on the Buchanan > spec sheet in regards to voltage makes it a no-go for 1kV+ systems. It's a > little surprising "fixture" isn't defined in the NEC, though in that case > the convention is to use the generally accepted definition, which matches > the contextual usage in the NEC - a permanently installed light, not > including the bulb). > > > As defined in the NEC (2026), a rooftop is (no duh, even here in Arizona!) > a wet location: > > > Location, Wet. (Wet Location) > > A location that is one or more of the following: > > (1) Unprotected and exposed to weather > > (2) Subject to saturation with water or other liquids > > (3) Underground > > (4) In concrete slabs or masonry in direct contact with the earth > > > The inside of raceways in wet locations above grade is also a wet location: > > > 300.11(A) Raceways in Wet Locations Above Grade. > > Where raceways are installed in wet locations above grade, the interior of > these raceways shall be considered to be a wet location. Insulated > conductors and cables installed in raceways in wet locations above grade > shall comply with 310.10(C). [310.10(C) is requirements for conductors in > wet locations] > > > 314.14 requires junction boxes used in damp or wet locations have to be > listed for such use, as is the case with 3R (which can be marked > “rainproof”) and 4X (which can be marked “watertight”) enclosures (note the > minimum drainage opening size in (C)(1), so as to prevent clogging), but > does not state that their interior is considered a wet location: > > > 314.15(A) Prevent Moisture. > > In damp or wet locations, boxes, conduit bodies, outlet box hoods, and > fittings shall be placed or equipped to prevent moisture from entering or > accumulating within the boxes, conduit bodies, or fittings. > > 314.15(B) Listed. > > Boxes, conduit bodies, outlet box hoods, and fittings installed in wet > locations shall be listed for use in wet locations. > > 314.15(C) Drainage. > > 314.15(C)(1) Approved Openings. > > Approved drainage openings not smaller than 3 mm (1∕ 8 in.) and not larger > than 6 mm (1∕ 4 in.) in diameter shall be permitted in the field in boxes > or conduit bodies listed for use in damp or wet locations. > > > Enclosures for OCPDs (240.32) in damp or wet locations, and panelboards > (408.37) in damp or wet locations must comply with 312.4(A) and (B): > > 312.4(A) Weatherproof Enclosures. > > In damp or wet locations, surface-type enclosures within the scope of this > article shall be placed or equipped such that moisture or water is > prevented from entering and accumulating within cabinets or cutout boxes, > and be mounted so there is at least 6 mm (1∕ 4 in.) of airspace between > enclosures and walls or other supporting surface (yikes!!!!). Enclosures > installed in wet locations shall be weatherproof. Exception: Nonmetallic > enclosures shall be permitted without the airspace on a concrete, masonry, > tile, or similar surface. > > 312.4(B) Raceways or Cable Above Live Parts. > > For enclosures in wet locations, raceways or cables entering above the > level of uninsulated live parts shall use fittings listed for wet locations. > > The OCPDs installed in a typical panelboard are listed and designed to be > installed in that enclosure, which has the proper rating for the location; > and additional requirements stated above prevent direct dripping of > moisture onto energized components such as bussing or breakers. > > The only requirement related to listing for connections in 110.14 is that > direct buried connectors or splicing means be listed for such use. > > 110.11 states, in regard to deteriorating agents, conductors or equipment > located in damp or wet locations must be identified for use in the > operating environment. Note the definition of identified, and that listing > is one means of identification but not the only one, so there is some > latitude for the AHJ: > > Identified (as applied to equipment). > > Recognizable as suitable for the specific purpose, function, use, > environment, application, and so forth, where described in a particular > code requirement. > > Brian Mehalic > Solar Tech Collective > National Electrical Code® CMP-4 Member > (520) 204-6639 > > > > On Tue, Nov 11, 2025 at 8:03 PM Glenn via RE-wrenches < > [email protected]> wrote: > >> Having opened and inspected dozens of rooftop installations, I can firmly >> say that anything inside a box of any kind on a rooftop will absolutely be >> exposed to moisture and often water. Whether it is humidity sucked in from >> thermal cycling, or gasket failure through UV degradation, or here in the >> north, snow and ice damage, it will happen. >> >> You will never convince me that it is acceptable to use any device there >> that does not have a published, traceable listing for outdoor use in that >> environment. >> >> -Glenn >> >> On Nov 11, 2025 19:30, Jason Szumlanski < >> [email protected]> wrote: >> >> We're talking about inside a junction box (NEMA 3R or 4, for example), >> not an "outdoor environment." Wagos (and other connectors like wire nuts, >> Polaris Taps, power distribution blocks, terminal blocks, etc) are allowed >> inside of a rooftop junction box, just like they are allowed in various >> switch boxes, enclosures, and cabinets that are suitable for the >> environment outdoors. >> >> For the same reason you can put circuit breakers inside of a NEMA 3R load >> center outdoors, you can use splice connectors of many kinds inside of a >> NEMA 3R enclosure. They do not need to be listed for "outdoors" because it >> is not outdoors. It's enclosed and adequately protected from the >> environment. >> >> In other words, any AHJ that challenges me on this, I just ask them to >> show me a circuit breaker that's listed for use in a wet location. That's >> usually enough to shut them down. >> >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 >> >> On Tue, Nov 11, 2025, 7:11 PM Glenn <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> I have not found a listing for Wagos in an outdoor environment. >> >> -Glenn >> >> On Nov 11, 2025 18:01, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < >> [email protected]> wrote: >> >> We have had terrific success using Wagos in rooftop junction boxes for >> splicing #12 Enphase cable to #10 home run THWN. We have no issues >> whatsoever with these. >> >> Unfortunately, the #10 PV wire insulation is too large for the Wago >> 221-6XX series. We have been buying #14-#4 Polaris taps and it's getting >> very expensive. I would like an alternative. >> >> For a while we were using the King Innovation AlumiConn purple "suitcase" >> connectors for Enphase, but they are only 300V rated and I don't think the >> PV Wire insulation fits in those, either, for <300V applications. >> >> I have seen people using MC4 connectors in rooftop junction boxes like >> Blake suggested, but I wasn't sure if that is acceptable practice to use >> them this way (in an enclosure), and it does require a pretty large >> junction box. We prefer to use the EZ Solar JB-# series of boxes. The rail >> mount ones (JB-3) are pretty small, but the tile roof JB-2 is huge, and the >> shingle JB-1 is sizable as well. I guess if there is no prohibition against >> using them in an enclosure, then it should be allowed. I do like the >> watertight nature of this solution. >> >> I have seen some clowns using MC4 connectors with #10 THHN wire to make >> these splices. That's obviously no bueno. Crazy stuff... >> >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 >> >> >> On Tue, Nov 11, 2025 at 4:44 PM Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches < >> [email protected]> wrote: >> >> Hi Adam, >> This response is just to you. Is NYSERDA the inspection agency you are >> talking about? Cause they have given me issues about using Wago Nuts inside >> a 3R box, even after I got a statement from Wago saying that it is okay to >> put it inside a 3R box. But squirting a bit of No-Ox in there seems to make >> them happy about it. The one time we put one inside a 3R panel board to >> extend a short wire and forgot to put No-Ox on that one, they gave us a 2 >> out of 5 on the inspection, even though that was the only thing noted in >> the entire inspection report! But I would be curious if the point you make >> above will work with NYSERDA? >> >> Cheers, >> Dave >> >> On Tue, Nov 11, 2025 at 4:16 PM AE Solar via RE-wrenches < >> [email protected]> wrote: >> >> We had an inspection agency that was giving us a hard time about using >> buchanan crimps in junction boxes because they aren't rated for >> outdoor/damp locations. The point was made (on this listserve) that "*if >> the inside of a 3R enclosure isn't considered dry enough for a buchanan >> crimp/cap, then there's millions of 3R panels with breakers and busbars in >> them that would have the same problem*". The inspection agency finally >> relented. We put a little No-Alox in the cap. I know that's not what your >> initial post was about, but tossing that in for consideration just in >> case... >> >> Adam Katzman (he/him) >> Autonomous Energies | Owner/Operator >> www.AutonomousEnergies.com <http://www.autonomousenergies.com> >> (518) 567-1468 >> >> >> >> >> On Tue, Nov 11, 2025 at 3:51 PM Jay via RE-wrenches < >> [email protected]> wrote: >> >> Hi Sam >> >> I can’t imagine being just copper it would matter, the AHJ might have a >> different opinion however >> >> Question. >> How are you insulating them? >> >> Jay >> >> >> On Nov 11, 2025, at 11:15 AM, Sam Haraldson via RE-wrenches < >> [email protected]> wrote: >> >> >> Wrenches, >> >> On the attached product spec sheet for Ideal Copper Crimps (aka Buchanan >> crimps) you'll see that max voltage for the crimp is rated at 600V but an >> asterisk indicates up to 1000V when "in fixtures and signs". In our >> application this is a 1000v system and we are joining pairs of #10 PV >> wires. The junctions are made in a rail-mounted, plastic j-box. We could >> not find the definition of "fixture" as it might pertain to this situation >> in the NEC and as such are interested to learn more about using Buchanan >> crimps for 1000V applications. >> >> <image.png> >> >> >> Cheers, >> Sam >> >> [image: OnSite Energy] <https://onsiteenergyinc.com/> >> >> Sam Haraldson >> Operations Specialist >> (406) 551-6135 >> 1515 N. Rouse Ave Bozeman, MT 59715 >> <https://www.google.com/maps/search/1515+N.+Rouse+Ave+Bozeman,+MT+59715?entry=gmail&source=g> >> Locally owned and operated since 2012 >> [image: B Corporation] <https://onsiteenergyinc.com/bcorp> >> <IDEALIndustries-Crimp Connectors.pdf> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: [email protected] >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. 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