On Jan 8, 2009, at 5:23 PM, Rob Lockstone wrote:

> On Jan 8, 2009, at 13:52, Jay Ballinger wrote:
>> Hi everyone,
>> We're running Resin 3.0.18 Pro on a Windows 32-bit system and we're
>> looking to understand/tune our memory settings a bit.
>> According to http://www.caucho.com/resin-3.0/performance/jvm-tuning.xtp
>> the stack size is set to 2048k unless set otherwise. Is this true?
>> In using JConsole we can't see where any explicit -Xss setting is
>> passed and we can't readily determine what the current stack size is
>> set to.

Try -verbose when starting.  Since the -Xss is a command line option,  
it should be reported.  Also, JConsole should be able to see the  
command line options on one of the system beans.

> I think Caucho tends to err on the side of caution in this regard, and
> is also (understandably) more *nix-central than Windows. So take that
> 2048K as being "appropriate for most situations" with a grain of salt
> because situations can vary wildly.

Basically.  There's no way for us to know if your application needs  
more stack or more threads.  So I assumed 1G heap, leaving 1G for  
other stuff, and then figured the default should support 1000 threads,  
giving 1m as a default, which should be enough stack unless you have  
massively recursive applications, and enough threads for most apps.   
You know your own requirements best, of course.

I believe Linux is the most finicky about the stack allocation, so it  
was the OS we needed to solve (and it was the OS which exposed the  
issue first.)

I'm really looking forward for the 64-bit transition to complete so we  
can use as much VM as possible.

-- Scott

>> So, here's a short list of questions. And thanks for your help.
>> - If JConsole doesn't show -Xss, is it really there for resin?
> Whether it's explicitly set or not, there IS a stack size, which would
> end up being the default stack size of the operating system if the JVM
> itself doesn't set it (I do not think it does, but could be wrong and
> don't feel like looking it up now).
>> - How was "2048k is an appropriate value for most situations."
>> determined?
> See above.
>> - Can resin/jvm/jconsole report the current stack memory setting?
> I don't know if there's a way to query a running JVM for this
> information. It's best if you explicitly set the stack size using the
> JVM option -Xss (but see below).
>> (general sun jvm on windows questions)
>> - What is the default stack memory size?
> That's too general of a question. It depends on the OS, and (perhaps)
> the version of the OS.
>> - When a thread is created, does it grab all of the stack memory, or
>> can the stack memory start small and grow to the default or -Xss  
>> size?
> Again, might depend on the operating system. Contrary to what Knut
> said, and to the best of my knowledge and in the testing that I did
> (it's been a while), all of the memory for the stack is pre-allocated
> (at least from the perspective of the JVM itself). But it's easy
> enough to write a program to check this.
> Thread stacks, at least on Windows, are more complicated than just a
> single memory allocation (down at the Windows API level) because
> you've got both reserved and committed memory allocations, and one
> always has to be >= the other (I forget which), and there's a 64K
> granularity in sizing, and you're dealing with physical and virtual
> memory, and this is all set in the linker and therefore configurable,
> but can also be set programmatically on a per-thread basis. In other
> words, it's quite involved. See this page as an example of how complex
> this kind of memory management is when you go into how the underlying
> OS is actually managing all of this 
> <http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ms686774(VS.85).aspx
>> .
> Remember, thread allocation/destruction as well as context switching
> and just about everything else is managed by the operating system, not
> Java (unless you're running "green" threads, which I don't think is
> even around anymore?). This is why the memory used by the thread's
> stack is not part of the Java heap. On a 32-bit machine, the maximum
> addressable space for an individual java program is 2G. So, for
> example, if you run java with these parameters on a 32-bit machine:
> java -server -Xms1500M -Xmx1500M -Xss1M
> then you'll leave enough room to run ~548 threads (2048M - 1500M =
> 548M / 1M stack = 548 threads). Of course, that assumes that none of
> the 548M of non-java-heap memory is being used for anything else,
> which is a false assumption, perhaps hugely false  depending on what
> your java program is doing, e.g. graphics operations or the like.
> Something I discovered while optimizing our Resin on Windows
> environments is that the version of Windows and Java we use (64-bit
> Windows 2003 Server with Java 1.5) will allow a minimum stack size of
> 128K, and if you try to specify a stack size of 256K or 512K, Windows
> (or maybe the JVM, I don't know which one for sure) automatically
> jumps you up to 1M. So you have a choice between 128K, 1M, 2M, ??? (I
> didn't test above 2M).
> Fwiw, we've got dozens of Windows servers running Resin Pro 3.0.x
> (upgrading to 3.1.x in the not-too-distant future), and we run all of
> them with a 128K stack size. In general, unless you're running code
> that's highly recursive, you don't need very large stack sizes in Java
> programming.
> Rob
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