Le mercredi 26 mai 2010 15:51:14, Julie S a écrit : > > I see your points on here, but if we instead used a triggered segment > track, which would be a specialized MIDI type track. Then users could use > RG's current functionality to select the instrument to associate with the > segment. > > Also the user could place the triggered segment on the canvas where the > time signature occurs. Therefore, we could determine the time signature > based on the time signature ruler.
I'm afraid I had in mind the linked segments currently discussed in another thread rather than the triggered segments when I wrote my precedent post. Nevertheless we are facing the same problems. First, what is a triggered segment for ? Here is the original description Chris made some years ago: http://www.mail-archive.com/rosegarden- [email protected]/msg04416.html So usually: -1) a triggered segment is short (it's an ornament) -2) a triggered segment may be stretch or squash -3) pitch and velocity of a triggered segment may be raise or lower -4) a triggered segment is played on the same instrument as its triggering event >From (1) and (2) we see that, probably, to use a time signature when editing a triggered segment may be pointless. >From (3) and (4) we see that a triggered segment doesn't need any instrument as it will always be heard through the instrument of its calling segment. The right way to hear a triggered segment should be to call it from a normal segment then to hear that normal segment. > > Again this fits in with how RG already works on several levels. > > I think dialog boxes and user assigned neutral time signatures is self > limiting. What if the user is writing a complex segment that requires > several time signatures to properly display the segment? Will we plan for > this option? This should not happen for two reasons: -1) Because, currently, a time signature can't be embedded in a segment. The time signature is an event (sort of) on the tempo line. And, currently, there is one and only one tempo line in the composition. -2) Because a complex segment requiring several time signatures would be very different from the current short triggered segment. To call such a long segment through the elsewhere discussed "segment link" should probably be better than to call it through some triggering note or ornament symbol. > > ... > > Though I see your point and believe that assigning a time signature is > valid. I think the best benefit would come from allowing triggered > segments to be placed on a special track on the canvas. > > We have deep history of doing things this way. It may not be the best way, > but it has been the RG way for a long time -- shortcoming and all. > We have a deep history of storing normal segments on the canvas and of storing triggered segments in the Triggered Segment Manager list... We can't rely on such an history to move the triggered segments on the canvas. > ... > > Some if we choose dialog boxes: > > * How will a user here a triggered segment played back? As already said a triggered segment is played back from the normal segment which calls it, using instrument attached to this normal segment and tempo related to the position of this normal segment inside the composition. Nevertheless, I'm interested here to the extension of the triggered segment that a linked segment may be. Such a segment would be the source, the prototype, of the segments heard in the composition and is far longer than a triggered segment. It may be useful to hear it, totally outside of the composition, using some default (but user selectable) instrument and tempo. > > * Will we provide a special preview feature in the instrument selection > box, to avoid having the segment be played back with the rest of the > composition? Should be better in some dialog (as metronome has) than in instrument selection box. > > * How will we handle playback when user is editing a triggered segment? > They press play and expect to hear the segment in isolation or in time > with the music... Hmm (this was already mentioned) > > * What tempo will we use (the first in the composition), or will we allow > them to set the tempo for the preview or special playback as well? Defined in the same dialog as the instrument. > > My point with these questions is that there are several aspects of editing > these segments that are difficult address cleanly. > > In my mind the creation of a specialized triggered segment track, solves > much of this. Provides a consistent UI, and reuses much code already in > place. I'm afraid that such a track will be more user confusing than useful as the triggered (or linked) segment will be shown somewhere in the composition time. Nevertheless this segment will not be heard at that time, but at the times of the different places from where it is called. The composition may be very long: where (on the horizontal scale) should a (maybe very short) triggered segment be placed ? To find again such a short segment on a very long track may be difficult and the extra information given by the horizontal position of the segment is just not used. > > ... > > Some bullets about the design: > > * Create a new track type that accepts triggered segments. There can be as > many triggered segment tracks as the user likes. These would be modeled > after the MIDI tracks. Possibly a subclass with some extra features to > tie them with the triggered segment manager. Such technical question should not be a stopper. The real problem is elsewhere. > > * If a triggered segment doesn't appear on the new triggered segment track, > then the RG traditional behavior of using the first time signature > applies, and whatever traditional choice of instrument is also used > (behavior stays the same). > > * For triggered segments that appear on the triggered segment track, they > should also appear in the triggered segment manager. They will use the > instrument based on the track settings for the Triggered Segment tracks. > The time signature is derived from the time signature ruler and the > segments position in the composition. Here I understand no more. Why to maintain the triggered segment manager if we are now using the main window to store the triggered segments as ordinary ones ? > > * Deleting a triggered segment from the manager or from the triggered > segment track will delete it from both places (probably with notice if the > segments are actually tied to triggered events or "sym-links"). It may be interesting to see what happens actually when a triggered segment used somewhere is removed. > > * Moving a triggered segment from one triggered segment track to another > allowed. > > * Moving from triggered segment track to non triggered segment track, > removes the segment form the triggered segment manager (probably with > notice if the segments are actually tied to triggered events or > "sym-links"). Why ? If a triggered segment may exist in the triggered segment manager alone, without any link in the new special track, I don't see any reason to delete it in such a case. > > * If a segment from a non triggered segment track (except Audio track) is > placed on a triggered segment track, it is added to the triggered segment > manager and may be used as a triggered segment. > > * A triggered segment can only appear once in the composition. If copies > are made and placed, they are distinct from the original (traditional copy > of segment). > > * If we implement a symlink feature, we could allow an additional copy as > symlink, or paste as symlink (based on ease on implementation). > > ... > > I think that is plenty to consider. But that all hinges agreement of > developing a new track type for the RG main canvas. To resume my position, which is opposite to yours : - A triggered segment should always be heard embedded in some normal segment and using instrument and tempo coming from this segment. - For that reason, a triggered segment don't need any associated track and intrument. - To show a triggered segment somewhere in the composition main window is user confusing as the time, tempo and instrument associated to the segment are not the ones used when playing back the segment with the composition. - Currently to play back a triggered segment is possible by calling it from some other segment in the composition (that's the normal use of triggered segments). - A triggered segment edited in notation or matrix currently don't sound, but if we really want to play back it alone, it should not be very difficult to define (via some appropriate dialog) a default instrument and a default tempo to use. -The current triggered segment mechanism seems an interesting prototype for what may be some day a linked segment with transformations. Yves ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ Rosegarden-devel mailing list [email protected] - use the link below to unsubscribe https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rosegarden-devel
