On Dec 21, 2007 1:18 PM, mabshoff <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > On Dec 21, 11:56 am, harald schilly <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > On Dec 20, 9:39 pm, "Ondrej Certik" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > If Michael and others succeed in a native Windows port, needing just > > > couple hundreds MB, then Sage > > > will be a killer app. > > > > Hi, > > > But please don't forget, sage is about open source - and windows is > > the complete opposite. > > [begin rant] Well, we support OSX, too, and that isn't exactly Open > Source either. While Apple itself is somewhat more friendly to the > Open Source idea than Microsoft on the software side you shouldn't > forget that Apple is the company which brought you DRM and > "unprotected" tracks which just happen to contain a number that tracks > individual users via iTunes. The iPod isn't exactly a poster child for > openness, either. I could bash Apple for another couple paragraphs, > but I am sure you get my point. > > There are different opinions about what Open Source constitutes, but a > lot of people like William and me think for example that Firefox has > done more for the Open Source idea to the layperson than Linux ever > will. I am a huge supporter of Linux and Open Source in general, > having first installed Linux from a set of roughly 50 floppy discs > pulled over many nights via a 14.4KB download link in the early to mid > nineties and running it as my primary desktop OS to this day. Having > cross platform applications is a big plus, but more on that below. > What is the point in telling people not to use Windows, but to lock > them into Linux or OSX on the other hand? > > > Supporting all modules native for win32 is > > impossible, drains off a lot of worktime and using cygwin as an > > intermediate solution makes it slow, besides additional constant > > work! > > Cygwin is certainly a crutch, but a native port has many advantages, > namely 64 bit support. Just ask for example the Singular team if they > want a 64 bit native port of their application using MSVC. I can > assure you that they would be quite happy if somebody did the work. If > things work out as planned on my end I will certainly try to make that > happen. In the end we will all win if Sage and its components work > well on *all* operating systems. > > > So i would suggest an additional workstation and run the linux version > > and access it over the local network. Therefore nobody has to install > > an application in windows and the entry level is 0. > > The vast majority of users on the desktop use Windows and do not have > access to Linux or OSX. Probably most of them don't even want to > switch. The VMWare image to run Sage on Windows is fine for many > users, but many people will not use it because they lack the skill to > even set up networking and run a VMWare machine. Windows has excelled > at being good enough, and Microsoft will be *the* dominating desktop > operating system for easily the next decade. While the install base of > Linux is growing quicker in relative terms the absolute increase of > Windows desktops each year *dwarfs* the Linux desktop install base. So > while some people do extrapolate those exponential growth rates for > the Linux desktops a couple years into the future the server market > has clearly shown that those exponential growth rates fairly quickly > turn into an linear increase fairly quickly. So world domination for > Linux on the Desktop any time soon? I don't think so. > > I like to point out that extrapolation without understanding the > situation is very dangerous. By that measure the Women's world record > for the 100 meter dash will be lower than the Men's record by the > middle of this century assuming linear extrapolation of the > performance over the last two decades or so. One can easily see that > this is unlikely to happen and the main reason behind the relative > better improvements on that particular benchmark is either a > professionalization of Women's field & track [in relative terms] or > that doping with steroids has a larger affect on Women in that > particular discipline. The truth probably lies somewhere in the > middle. But eventually the improvements on the Women's side will level > off just like it happened for the Men. And even today it is in my not > so humble opinion impossible to lower that record for either sex > without massive doping, but I don't want to rant on about that topic > here. > > To get somewhat closer to on-topic again: Another target group for > Sage is the general educational sector [by which I mean high schools > and non-major math college education, not professional mathematicians, > graduate students in math and so on] which is primarily Windows and > while a Sage notebook server certainly make sense in that context [a > bunch of clients working on a powerful central server] many people > will not use Sage because it isn't a native Windows installation with > either a MSI installer or some executable to click on and install. > There are still loads of people out there, especially in the > "management" layer, who think that Microsoft offers the better deal > because you have somebody to point the finger at if anything goes > wrong. Obviously after actually reading the EULA those people should > be embarrassed, but that is besides the point. And many shops run > homogeneous networks to keep costs down and limit the areas where they > need expertise. I don't think those are valid points, but we have to > work with the situations that is often called "reality", not what the > situation we would like to be in. We do not have a 30 year horizon, > we want to compete *now* and to do that successfully we need a native > port, the sooner the better. > > As mentioned above I think that cross platform code makes Open Source > independent of the underlying operating system which is much more > important than a somewhat purist opinion that excludes the majority of > the target audience just because they "haven't seen the light yet." > This rant is not intended to flame you, I am just sick and tired of > people like Fefe who think that everybody needs to switch to a pure > Open Source OS like Linux [if you want to be amused ask the OpenBSD > people people whether they think Linux is truly free] to be eligible > to run Open Source applications. Open Source *in my book* is about > *choice* and if one wants to run Sage natively instead any of the big > Ms on Windows more power to that person. That choice to run Sage on > Windows is way more important *in my book* than some ill guided > arguments that catering to the "evil M$ empire" [please note that I > consider the use of "M$" childish and again: you didn't express that > position] will stop people from starting to use Linux because they can > use all those cool Open Source applications like Firefox on Windows. > The vast majority of users will finally see that Open Source works > because of Firefox, not be kept on Windows because they can use it > there. They may switch, they may not switch, but at least they might > have learned something in the process. > > In the end feel free to disagree with me, and many people certainly > do. Me spending my time on a native Windows port doesn't hurt anybody
I agree with you 100%. Ondrej --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ To post to this group, send email to [email protected] To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel URLs: http://sage.scipy.org/sage/ and http://modular.math.washington.edu/sage/ -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
