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Today's Topics:
1. Re: sanskrit Digest, Vol 26, Issue 3 (Miki Patel)
2. Re: correct pronunciation: ram Vs. rama (Jay Vaidya)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 08:16:23 -0700 (PDT)
From: Miki Patel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: [Sanskrit] Re: sanskrit Digest, Vol 26, Issue 3
To: [email protected]
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Reply to Pratyush,
This is what I believe, I may be wrong though.
In north India as well as in South India the word 'ram' came from sanskrit
prathama-vibhakti -
ram: ( rAmH).
Slowly, with time, people started to pronounce it wrongly (apbhra^.sh), and in
those transition
North Indians droped the ending 'H' or ':', hence started pronounce 'rAm'.
Where as South Indians changed 'H' to A and started pronounce 'rAmA'
I guess both of them are wrong if thinking from perfect grametic rules. Only
original sanskrit pronounciation 'rAmH' is the correct one.
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
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When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
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Today's Topics:
1. Saaradaa SaaradAmbhoja ... (Sai)
2. Re: Saaradaa SaaradAmbhoja ... (P.K.Ramakrishnan)
3. correct sanskrit pronunciation: ram Vs rama (Pratyush)
4. Re: correct sanskrit pronunciation: ram Vs rama (Rishi Kumar)
5. REQUEST FOR INFORMATION (BalasM)
6. Re: correct sanskrit pronunciation: ram Vs rama (P.K.Ramakrishnan)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 23:49:15 -0600
From: Sai
Subject: [Sanskrit] Saaradaa SaaradAmbhoja ...
To: [email protected]
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Hi,
I heard a Sloka recently. Can somebody give its meaning and comment on
its poetic/grammatical specialty?
SaaradA SaaradAmbhoja-vadanA vadanAmbuje
sarvadA sarvadAsmAkam sannidhim sannidhim kriyAt
I have a strong suspicion that though each word is used twice, the
meanings are different.
For example I'm guessing that
sarvadA = sarva-dA = bestower of all
sarvadA = always
- Sai.
------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 05:15:58 -0700 (PDT)
From: "P.K.Ramakrishnan"
Subject: Re: [Sanskrit] Saaradaa SaaradAmbhoja ...
To: Sai , sanskrit digest
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
I remember to have read this shloka when I was in the 10th Standard when one
sarga of Raghuvamsa was prescribed for the SSLC examination in 1941, I also
remembered that its authour as Mallinatha who has made commentaries on all of
Kalidasas kavyas.
Now I tooked at Raghuvamsam from my library which has Mallinatha's commentary.
This shloka appears before he starts his commentary of the 4th Sarga.
I also venture to give its meaning (which is not given in the book).
This prayer is addressed to Saaradaa.
anvaya or prose order -
sarvadaa shaaradaambhojavadanaa shaaradaa sarvadaa
asmaakam vadannambuje sannidhim sanndhim kriyaat.
Let the all giving and having the face of the autumn lotus, goddess sharadaa
(goddess of learning) always take presence in the receptacle of my lotus face.
The alamkaara used in this verse comes under the category of shabdaalamkaara
i.e. relating to letters as opposed to arthaalamkaara i.e. relating to meaning.
The name is YAMAKA -" the repetition in the same stanza of words or syllables
similar in sound but different in meaning." But in this stanza, the YAMAKA
occurs in each paada
or quarter. So it is called pratipaada yamakam.
(Note - someone can give a better the translation - PKR)
Mallinatha has composed similar shlokas before starting his commentary
of each saraga.
I shall try to reproduce some of them one by one, if any one is interested.
PKR
Sai wrote:
Hi,
I heard a Sloka recently. Can somebody give its meaning and comment on
its poetic/grammatical specialty?
SaaradA SaaradAmbhoja-vadanA vadanAmbuje
sarvadA sarvadAsmAkam sannidhim sannidhim kriyAt
I have a strong suspicion that though each word is used twice, the
meanings are different.
For example I'm guessing that
sarvadA = sarva-dA = bestower of all
sarvadA = always
- Sai.
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Message: 3
Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 19:17:25 +0530
From: Pratyush
Subject: [Sanskrit] correct sanskrit pronunciation: ram Vs rama
To: [email protected]
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Hi Everybody,
I am looking for the correct pronunciation of the word "ram" (as in Lord
Ram). Most of the north indians pronounce Ram as Ram and not as Rama, as is
written in english. However, a south Indian friend of mine pointed out that
in south India, ram is pronounced as rama (a as in art), and so are other
similar words like Nirvana, Shiva etc. What would be the original Sanskrit
pronunciation of such words (ram, nirvan, shiv etc)? I used to believe that
a trailing "a" in most of the Sanskrit word is a british legacy, which they
used to suit their pronunciation ease. I remember we were taught in school
days that a "halant" word will have a very short sound of the consonant that
it represents, while when there is a sandhi with "a", it completes a full
sound of the consonant. (m in this case). However "A" ki matra will add a
double stress on the word, as in kamala.
A google search did reveal some discussion on this topic; however I couldn't
find any definitive answer.
Hope somebody here would be able to provide me with some explanation.
Thanks,
-pratyush
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Message: 4
Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 07:37:54 -0700 (PDT)
From: Rishi Kumar
Subject: Re: [Sanskrit] correct sanskrit pronunciation: ram Vs rama
To: Pratyush
, [email protected]
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
"akArAnthaha pumlingaha Rama Shabdaha".
It means the "Rama" shabda ends with an "a as in art". All the other shabdas
with the akaranta (e.g Shiva etc) fall into the same category.
Pratyush
wrote:
st1\:*{behavior:url(#default#ieooui) }
Hi Everybody,
I am looking for the correct pronunciation of the word �ram� (as in Lord Ram).
Most of the north indians pronounce Ram as Ram and not as Rama, as is written
in english. However, a south Indian friend of mine pointed out that in south
India, ram is pronounced as rama (a as in art), and so are other similar words
like Nirvana, Shiva etc. What would be the original Sanskrit pronunciation of
such words (ram, nirvan, shiv etc)? I used to believe that a trailing �a� in
most of the Sanskrit word is a british legacy, which they used to suit their
pronunciation ease. I remember we were taught in school days that a �halant�
word will have a very short sound of the consonant that it represents, while
when there is a sandhi with �a�, it completes a full sound of the consonant. (m
in this case). However �A� ki matra will add a double stress on the word, as in
kamala.
A google search did reveal some discussion on this topic; however I couldn�t
find any definitive answer.
Hope somebody here would be able to provide me with some explanation.
Thanks,
-pratyush
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------------------------------
Message: 5
Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 15:39:26 +0100 (BST)
From: BalasM
Subject: [Sanskrit] REQUEST FOR INFORMATION
To: [email protected]
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Hi
Could somebody help me to know where I can get or access
the "SHRI SHIVA LINGA ASHTOTTARA SHATHA NAAMAAVALI".
Thanks and Pranaams
BM.
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Message: 6
Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 07:39:34 -0700 (PDT)
From: "P.K.Ramakrishnan"
Subject: Re: [Sanskrit] correct sanskrit pronunciation: ram Vs rama
To: Pratyush
, sanskrit digest
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Rama is akaaranta masculine which in the first vibhakti becomes raamah raamau
raamaah.
It is the same for shiva. Only in Hindi the last letter gives up its vowel like
a. That is the same reason that all south indian languages have rama instead of
ram. It has nothing to do with the influence of English.
Pratyush
wrote:
st1\:*{behavior:url(#default#ieooui) }
Hi Everybody,
I am looking for the correct pronunciation of the word �ram� (as in Lord Ram).
Most of the north indians pronounce Ram as Ram and not as Rama, as is written
in english. However, a south Indian friend of mine pointed out that in south
India, ram is pronounced as rama (a as in art), and so are other similar words
like Nirvana, Shiva etc. What would be the original Sanskrit pronunciation of
such words (ram, nirvan, shiv etc)? I used to believe that a trailing �a� in
most of the Sanskrit word is a british legacy, which they used to suit their
pronunciation ease. I remember we were taught in school days that a �halant�
word will have a very short sound of the consonant that it represents, while
when there is a sandhi with �a�, it completes a full sound of the consonant. (m
in this case). However �A� ki matra will add a double stress on the word, as in
kamala.
A google search did reveal some discussion on this topic; however I couldn�t
find any definitive answer.
Hope somebody here would be able to provide me with some explanation.
Thanks,
-pratyush
_______________________________________________
sanskrit mailing list
[email protected]
http://mailman.cs.utah.edu/mailman/listinfo/sanskrit
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End of sanskrit Digest, Vol 26, Issue 3
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Message: 2
Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 10:06:52 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jay Vaidya <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: [Sanskrit] Re: correct pronunciation: ram Vs. rama
To: [email protected]
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
This adds to but does not contradict the informative
answer by PKR. Modifies the answer by Rishi Kumar.
Rishi Kumar correctly states that the word 'rAma' ends
in a vowel, but that vowel is incorrectly identified.
> ... "Rama" shabda ends with an "a as in art".
Most dialects of English (Indian radio/Standard
British RP/Standard American) pronounce "art" with a
long open 'a'. This is approximately transcribed on
this list as 'A' or 'aa'
The Sanskrit pronunciation of the final vowel of
'rAma' is the short closed variety. An example is the
vowel in the word 'up' in Indian English. In standard
American and British RP, the sound you are looking for
is that elusive unstressed vowel, which linguists
refer to as "schwa". It is the last vowel in the
British RP or Standard American pronunciation of
'matter'.
Since Pratyush appears to speak Hindi, it is possible
to give exact examples of the pronunciation rather
than the approximate equivalents in English. The final
vowel of 'rAma' is also represented as the first and
third vowels of the word 'banAras' (name of city) in
Hindi. The second vowel of 'banAras' is the long open
'A', which is also the first vowel of the Sanskrit
'rAma'.
As PKR says,
> Only in Hindi the last letter gives up its
> vowel like a.
Also maraThi, bAN^lA, gujarAtI, etc. But the 'a'
deletion rules are not identical to Hindi.
Hindi has its own complex set of rules for the
deletion of 'a', not only from the end of words, but
sometimes from within the word. For example:
. 'kamala' (lotus) is written without halanta, but the
final 'a' is deleted in speech, not writing, and the
word is pronounced as 'kamal' in Hindi
. 'kamalA' (name of woman), the central vowel 'a' is
deleted in speech, not writing, and the word is
pronounced as 'kamlA' in Hindi.
These pronunciations are CORRECT and GRAMMATICAL in
Hindi.
Therefore Hindi speakers must be careful not to apply
Hindi pronunciation rules to Sanskrit pronunciation.
(And Marathi speakers should not use Marathi-specific
rules, and Telugu/Tamil/Bengali/Punjabi speakers must
not use rules specific to their language) even though
the shape of the written word looks similar.
Words with halanta always have an explicitly written
halanta sign in Sanskrit, when written in scripts of
brAhmI origin (i.e., all Indian scripts except urdU,
sindhI, roman). In devanAgarI this sign is an oblique
line below the letter. Following this convention,
always give full value to the final 'a' sound in words
that do not have a marked halanta in brAhmI-origin
scripts.
This is important. e.g.,
tama (full value to final 'a') means 'darkness'
tam (halanta) means 'to him'. (But in Hindi, during
speech, it can mean 'darkness', based on Hindi
pronunciation rules.)
> That is the same reason that all south indian
> languages have rama instead of ram.
Be sure to remember that in some southern languages,
such as kannaDa, the final vowel is the OPEN, short
'a', a sound that does not exist in Sanskrit, where a
CLOSED, short 'a' sound is used.
> It has nothing to do with the influence of
> English.
Right on.
Dhananjay
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End of sanskrit Digest, Vol 26, Issue 4
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