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Today's Topics:
1. Re: Re: correct pronunciation: ram Vs. rama (Vis Tekumalla)
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Message: 1
Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 09:49:46 -0700 (PDT)
From: Vis Tekumalla <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [Sanskrit] Re: correct pronunciation: ram Vs. rama
To: Lakshmi Srinivas <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Sai <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Cc: [email protected]
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
I think - vipariNamanaM niyamaaH, or vipariNamanaM aachaaraaH - could work:-)
Lakshmi Srinivas <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:I would have prefered the 'bhavatah
nvivaraNam' etc.
Can you plse translate 'transliteration convention' into Sanskrit?
Lakshmi Srinivas
Sai <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
bhavatyAH vivaraNam sAdhuH asti |
(Your clarification is good).
etat charchA idAnIm stagitavyA athavA samskR^ite eva anuvartanIyA
(This discussion is best stopped now or else continued in the sanskrit
language itself)
api cha, mama transliteration convention "ITRANS".
- Sai.
Lakshmi Srinivas uvaacha:
> Pratyush,
>
> Allow me to place your comments in perspective.
>
> Transliteration is just a convention - the one which runs in Hindi land for
> whatever reasons is not universally valid. Similarly, the one which is used
> in another state is probably invalid outside that state. You assume
> universality for an unofficial transliteration convention prevalent for
> transcribing Hindi sounds. It was originally popularized primarily by the
> Hindi movie industry and now it seems to be universally used. But let me tell
> you t his convention is a dead loss for anything outside of shuddha hindi.
> Take, for example, the 'gh' in gharib and ghanta, the pronunciation is not
> the same but the transliteration convention is the same.
>
> In the South, the addition of 'h' to a 't as in Pratyush comes from the time
> when all 't''s used to represent the English 't', the alveolar one,
> pronounced albeit by all Indians as retroflex! So when the question of
> representing dental sounds of Indian origin came, the differentiation was
> done using an additional 'h'. In an earlier period, when Indian sounds were
> written like the English pronounced it, there was no attempts to make even
> this distinction. Thus 'Courtallam' instead of 'kutralam' (literary version)
> or 'kutthalam' (spoken version) or 'Tambaram' eventhough the initial 't' is
> dental, i.e., identical to the 't' in Pratyush.
>
> Hindi movie industry was the first 'institution' which required a uniform
> convention since its users were outside the Hindi speaking belt in a large
> number and outside India also, for that matter. Even then for a long time,
> they and Hindi language itself has lived with all manner of contradictions
> like the 'd' in 'ladki' and 'badla', in each case a different sound. The
> retroflex 'd' is spelt inconsistently e.g., the word for road 'sarak' spelt
> as such in the case of a famous Delhi street but 'aadmi sadak ka' , the title
> of a movie.
>
> For transliterating Sanskrit, rightfully the topic of most relevance, there
> are multiple conventions available. My own personal preference is for the
> Harvard Kyoto convention since it does not look unduly academic, does not
> have embedded periods etc but it does look, in the opinion of many people, a
> little unaesthetic.
>
> In a list like this, I agree that we should have a uniform convention but I
> notice that many people do not use any transliteration convention. If they
> are consistent, it is merely easier to read.
>
> ; Incidentally, the last 'a' in Rama, is properly dealt with in grammar.
> Panini's last sutra 'a a' (P 8.4.68), along with the sutra 'tulyAsya
> prayatnam savarNam' (P.1.1.9), deals with it elegantly. The commentaries tell
> you that the short 'a' is a closed 'a' (saMvRta) as opposed to the long 'a'
> which is long as well as open (vivRta).
>
> Hope this helps,
>
> Lakshmi Srinivas
>
>
> Pratyush
wrote:
>
> Thanks dhananjay and everybody else for elaborate replies.
>
> Taking it further on the same note, I noticed that Rishi spelt "akArAntaha"
> in "akArAnthaha pumlingaha Rama Shabdaha" with a "th". In hindi speaking
> belt, this will be read as tha as in hAthI (an elephant) or "tha" in
> Thailand. Even the Itrans spells a tha as in hAthI and not as a "t" in
> sa.nskRRita. I have seen the same inclusion of an "h" along with a "t" in
> many south Indian names. A l ot of places my name too has to carry an
> additional "h", as prathyush.
>
> I am just curious to know if this is due to absence of some sounds in south
> Indian languages, and what should be the correct transliteration of a word
> like aja.ntA (this is itrans). Apologies if this is going beyond the scope
> of the group.
>
> Thanks,
> -pratyush
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Jay Vaidya
> Sent: Wednesday, May 11, 2005 10:37 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: [Sanskrit] Re: correct pronunciation: ram Vs. rama
>
> This adds to but does not contradict the informative
> answer by PKR. Modifies the answer by Rishi Kumar.
>
> Rishi Kumar correctly states that the word 'rAma' ends
> in a vowel, but that vowel is incorrectly identified.
>
&g t; > ... "Rama" shabda ends with an "a as in art".
>
> Most dialects of English (Indian radio/Standard
> British RP/Standard American) pronounce "art" with a
> long open 'a'. This is approximately transcribed on
> this list as 'A' or 'aa'
> The Sanskrit pronunciation of the final vowel of
> 'rAma' is the short closed variety. An example is the
> vowel in the word 'up' in Indian English. In standard
> American and British RP, the sound you are looking for
> is that elusive unstressed vowel, which linguists
> refer to as "schwa". It is the last vowel in the
> British RP or Standard American pronunciation of
> 'matter'.
>
> Since Pratyush appears to speak Hindi, it is possible
> to give exact examples of the pronunciation rather
> than the approximate equivalents in English. The final
> vowel of 'rAma' is also represented as the first and
> third vowels of the word 'b anAras' (name of city) in
> Hindi. The second vowel of 'banAras' is the long open
> 'A', which is also the first vowel of the Sanskrit
> 'rAma'.
>
> As PKR says,
> > Only in Hindi the last letter gives up its
> > vowel like a.
> Also maraThi, bAN^lA, gujarAtI, etc. But the 'a'
> deletion rules are not identical to Hindi.
>
> Hindi has its own complex set of rules for the
> deletion of 'a', not only from the end of words, but
> sometimes from within the word. For example:
> . 'kamala' (lotus) is written without halanta, but the
> final 'a' is deleted in speech, not writing, and the
> word is pronounced as 'kamal' in Hindi
> . 'kamalA' (name of woman), the central vowel 'a' is
> deleted in speech, not writing, and the word is
> pronounced as 'kamlA' in Hindi.
> These pronunciations are CORRECT and GRAMMATICAL in
> Hindi.
>
> Therefore Hindi speakers must be careful not to apply
> Hindi pronunciation rules to Sanskrit pronunciation.
> (And Marathi speakers should not use Marathi-specific
> rules, and Telugu/Tamil/Bengali/Punjabi speakers must
> not use rules specific to their language) even though
> the shape of the written word looks similar.
>
> Words with halanta always have an explicitly written
> halanta sign in Sanskrit, when written in scripts of
> brAhmI origin (i.e., all Indian scripts except urdU,
> sindhI, roman). In devanAgarI this sign is an oblique
> line below the letter. Following this convention,
> always give full value to the final 'a' sound in words
> that do not have a marked halanta in brAhmI-origin
> scripts.
>
> This is important. e.g.,
> tama (full value to final 'a') means 'darkness'
> tam (halanta) means 'to him'. (But in Hindi, during
> speech, it can mean 'darkness', b ased on Hindi
> pronunciation rules.)
>
>
> > That is the same reason that all south indian
> > languages have rama instead of ram.
> Be sure to remember that in some southern languages,
> such as kannaDa, the final vowel is the OPEN, short
> 'a', a sound that does not exist in Sanskrit, where a
> CLOSED, short 'a' sound is used.
>
>
> > It has nothing to do with the influence of
> > English.
> Right on.
>
> Dhananjay
>
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