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Today's Topics:
1. "transliteration convention" translation (Jay Vaidya)
2. Re: "transliteration convention" translation (Sai)
3. Re: "transliteration convention" translation (Jay Vaidya)
4. Re: "transliteration convention" translation (Haresh Bakshi)
5. Fwd: Re: [Sanskrit] "transliteration convention" translation
(Jay Vaidya)
6. How to study Sanskrit melody and intonation for sacred
purposes (Jay Vaidya)
7. anulekhanam = transliteration (Sai)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 12:00:23 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jay Vaidya <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: [Sanskrit] "transliteration convention" translation
To: [email protected]
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Perhaps "lipy-antara-paribhAshhA" may be more
descriptive for "transliteration convention".
What we call "transliteration" is in fact truly a
change in scripts. Unfortunately, "transcription" in
English already means something else, so the word
transliteration had to be invented.
lipi+antara = different script (in this particular
type of compound, analogy to bhAshAntara, deshAntara,
etc.)
paribhAshhA = technical rules, or metarules (rules
governing rules = convention?)
"niyama" is usually reserved for a special kind of
rule that limits previously available possibilities.
E.g., pancha panchanakhAH khAdyAH | Five five-clawed
animals may be eaten. Which means, though one may have
thought that all five-clawed animals are edible, only
five of the species are (I forget the list now), and
all other five-clawed animals may NOT be eaten.
dhana.njayaH
> From: Vis Tekumalla <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
> I think - vipariNamanaM niyamaaH, or vipariNamanaM
> aachaaraaH - could work:-)
>
>> Lakshmi Srinivas <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:I
would
>> Can you plse translate 'transliteration convention'
>> into Sanskrit?
>>
>> Lakshmi Srinivas
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Message: 2
Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 13:11:54 -0600
From: Sai <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [Sanskrit] "transliteration convention" translation
To: Jay Vaidya <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Cc: [email protected]
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
I agree with Jay on using "paribhAShA" instead of "niyama"
However, doesn't "anulipI paribhAShA" sound closer to the truth than
"lipyantara paribhAShA"? Here is my reasoning:
anuvAda = translation, "expression that follows the intent of
another expression"
Deriving from the above, here is my opinion:
anulekhana = the act of transcribing or transliterating
lipI = script
anulipI = script that follows the intent of another script, which is
what transliteration really is.
- Sai.
Jay Vaidya uvaacha:
> Perhaps "lipy-antara-paribhAshhA" may be more
> descriptive for "transliteration convention".
>
> What we call "transliteration" is in fact truly a
> change in scripts. Unfortunately, "transcription" in
> English already means something else, so the word
> transliteration had to be invented.
>
> lipi+antara = different script (in this particular
> type of compound, analogy to bhAshAntara, deshAntara,
> etc.)
> paribhAshhA = technical rules, or metarules (rules
> governing rules = convention?)
------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 12:57:09 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jay Vaidya <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [Sanskrit] "transliteration convention" translation
To: Sai <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Cc: [email protected]
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
anu- might work. But it may not be exact.
As an upasarga anu- is too undefined in meaning, so no
analogies may be drawn.
Sai gave the example of anuvAda: "expression that
follows the intent of another expression"
But also:
anukaraNa - doing LIKE somone (=imitate)
anubhava - experience (nothing to do with bhava!)
anunaya - take along
anupreshhaNa - send along with
With other compounds its meaning is also consistently
"according to" or "similar"
e.g.,
anu-loma = according to the [direction of the] hair
(said of certain allowable kinds of intercaste
marriage, in the sense that movement against the hair
is painful, so prati-loma are the less acceptable
forms of intercaste marriages. Refers to past, not
current social order!)
anu-rUpa = according to form = befitting
anu-jyeshhTham = according to seniority
So anu+"lipi" not being upasarga, we will most likely
think of the consistent meaning "according to script"
or "similar script". Which may be okay. But the sense
of transporting from one script to the other may not
be as apparent.
bhAshhAntara, deshAntara, arthAntara, etc.
specifically mean "different language", "different
country", "different meaning", etc. So "lipyantara" is
a regular construction (I can't remember the rule to
quote).
But I am okay with "anulipi", if that rolls off the
tongue easier.
Dhananjay
--- Sai <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I agree with Jay on using "paribhAShA" instead of
> "niyama"
> However, doesn't "anulipI paribhAShA" sound closer
> to the truth than
> "lipyantara paribhAShA"? Here is my reasoning:
> anuvAda = translation, "expression that follows the
> intent of
> another expression"
>
> Deriving from the above, here is my opinion:
> anulekhana = the act of transcribing or
> transliterating
> lipI = script
> anulipI = script that follows the intent of another
> script, which is
> what transliteration really is.
> - Sai.
>
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Message: 4
Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 16:29:34 -0400
From: "Haresh Bakshi" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [Sanskrit] "transliteration convention" translation
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Cc: [email protected]
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
Would 'Antarlipi' do better?
Regards,
Haresh.
>From: Jay Vaidya <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>To: Sai <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>CC: [email protected]
>Subject: Re: [Sanskrit] "transliteration convention" translation
>Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 12:57:09 -0700 (PDT)
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>
>anu- might work. But it may not be exact.
>
>As an upasarga anu- is too undefined in meaning, so no
>analogies may be drawn.
>
>Sai gave the example of anuvAda: "expression that
>follows the intent of another expression"
>But also:
>anukaraNa - doing LIKE somone (=imitate)
>anubhava - experience (nothing to do with bhava!)
>anunaya - take along
>anupreshhaNa - send along with
>
>With other compounds its meaning is also consistently
>"according to" or "similar"
>e.g.,
>anu-loma = according to the [direction of the] hair
>(said of certain allowable kinds of intercaste
>marriage, in the sense that movement against the hair
>is painful, so prati-loma are the less acceptable
>forms of intercaste marriages. Refers to past, not
>current social order!)
>anu-rUpa = according to form = befitting
>anu-jyeshhTham = according to seniority
>
>So anu+"lipi" not being upasarga, we will most likely
>think of the consistent meaning "according to script"
>or "similar script". Which may be okay. But the sense
>of transporting from one script to the other may not
>be as apparent.
>
>bhAshhAntara, deshAntara, arthAntara, etc.
>specifically mean "different language", "different
>country", "different meaning", etc. So "lipyantara" is
>a regular construction (I can't remember the rule to
>quote).
>
>But I am okay with "anulipi", if that rolls off the
>tongue easier.
>
>Dhananjay
>
>
>--- Sai <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > I agree with Jay on using "paribhAShA" instead of
> > "niyama"
> > However, doesn't "anulipI paribhAShA" sound closer
> > to the truth than
> > "lipyantara paribhAShA"? Here is my reasoning:
> > anuvAda = translation, "expression that follows the
> > intent of
> > another expression"
> >
> > Deriving from the above, here is my opinion:
> > anulekhana = the act of transcribing or
> > transliterating
> > lipI = script
> > anulipI = script that follows the intent of another
> > script, which is
> > what transliteration really is.
> > - Sai.
> >
>
>
>
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------------------------------
Message: 5
Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 13:47:02 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jay Vaidya <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Fwd: Re: [Sanskrit] "transliteration convention" translation
To: [email protected]
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
antar- as a prefix could be confusing. In Sanskrit,
it is most often used to signify "internal"
antar-manaH = inner mind
antar-bhUta = in-dwelling ("inside-is")
antaH-karaNa = inner self (inner working)
The commonly used modern word "Antar-rAshhTriya",
presumably from "antar-rAshhTra" is a Hindi
construction that does not follow Sanskrit rules.
Dhananjay
> --- Haresh Bakshi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Would 'Antarlipi' do better?
> >
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Message: 6
Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 14:46:45 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jay Vaidya <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: [Sanskrit] How to study Sanskrit melody and intonation for
sacred purposes
To: Tarcisio Frota <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Cc: [email protected]
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Attached below my reply is an email that was probably
meant for the whole group.
___
(My reply)
Dear Tarcisio,
Unfortuntely, or fortunately, the melody and
musicality of the Sanskrit language is preserved in
multiple family traditions, not all of which are the
same.
Hence, vedic chants said with full musicality in the
Kerala school (which I heard in the movie
"shankarAchArya") are not the same as was learnt in my
home, or that of some other families (as I have heard
in weddings, ceremonies, etc).
There is not enough evidence to choose between
different ways to enunciate accents. So I would
suggest that you choose a spiritual/musical teacher
you feel inspired by, and follow them with care.
The language spoken and described by pANini was a
living language of everyday communication, and its
music/accent was probably quite different from the
mechanical way we chant hymns today (either in my
family or most other families). Based on internal
evidence, I strongly believe that to be the case.
Regarding pANini's metaphysical opinions regarding
brahman, unfortunately we know nothing whatsoever. In
any case, I would trust shankaracharya, or
madhvAchArya, or the upanishhad-s, (I mean any
SPIRITUAL thinker) on metaphysical matters more than I
would trust pANini (a TECHNICAL author).
Perhaps some of the other group members will be able
to help you with intonation resources.
Regarding spiritual instruction, please consult the
group webmaster, as it may be beyond the scope of this
email list, unless the correspondence is carried out
in Sanskrit.
You may not need English as a half-way language to
study the vedas and other sacred texts. A lot of
translation work on Sanskrit in the 18th-19th
centuries was done in German, if that language is
easier for you. Some work was done in French, but
hardly anything in Italian.
Just a caution that you are probably well aware of: a
lot of classic entertaining, or technical, or profane,
or pornographic, or merely silly literature was also
written in the Sanskrit language, just as it is in
every human language. So I doubt that you will know
brahman by merely knowing the language -- but rather
by reading and understanding the kinds of mystic works
that seem to have animated you.
Dhananjay
___
--- Tarcisio Frota <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Omtatsatbrahmane namah
> Om shanti om
> Om Prem OM
> Om Hari om
>
> My desire would be to know how can I study or learn
> the musicality of
> Sanskrit, the intonations and melodious inflexions
> of it.
>
> I knwo it is a sacred language and that as Panini
> said " How knows my
> language knows Brahman" then first I need to know
> God or be realized to
> express correctly this sacred Brahman expressions.
>
> But meanwhile, is there any guidebooks to teaches or
> how to start to express
> our feelings in the correct words or vibrations
> without being doubly
> confussed and make mistakes or incorrect intonation.
>
> Naturally I shoud have a broad perception or
> awareness of the Truth. My
> country language is Portuguese and to study some
> realy spiritual books, be
> them Vedas, Gitas, Sutras etc I ought to use the
> English as a medium to come
> near the Sanskrit, Althought I know that only beaing
> a true sadhaka ou
> disciple I will receive the Wisdom from de Almight
> Being, Brahmam ou
> Parabrahman.
>
> Now, can anyone stands to indicate me how to get
> there?
>
> May Brahman and gurus bless you now, ever and
> forever.
>
> Omtatsat
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Message: 7
Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 15:59:49 -0600
From: Sai <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: [Sanskrit] anulekhanam = transliteration
To: Jay Vaidya <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Cc: [email protected]
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
I think "anulekhanaM" describes very closely (if not fully) what we
understand as "the act of transliteration". Hence I vote for that.
"anulipI" = the script used for anulekhanam.
such as
ITRANS Angla-anulipI kA? "a aa/A, i, ii/I, u, U/uu, e, ai, o, au aM aH, ...."
ITRANS anulipyAM 'Sanskrit' katham likhyate? "sa.nskR^itaM" iti
M-W anulipyAm? "saMskRtaM" iti.
Usage Examples for anulekhanam:
"I am writing sanskrit in english alphabet following the ITRANS convention"
becomes
"ITRANS paribhAShAm anusR^itya, samskrtam AnglAyAm anulikhAmi"
"mama bhagavad-gItAyAH AnglaanulekhanaM AvaSyakam, na
AnglaanuvAdaH" :-)
"ime pustake lalitA sahasra nAma stotraH telugu'yAm anulikhitaH"
In this book, the lalita sahasra stotra has been transliterated into telugu.
Regarding "anubhava":
I differ with Jay's opinion that, since the word anubhava means
experience, it has nothing to do with 'bhava'. In fact, M-W says,
<E> anubhava
<M> m. perception , apprehension , fruition ; understanding ;
impression on the mind not derived from memory ; experience , knowledge
derived from personal observation or experiment ; result , consequence.
experience = knowledge derived from observation or experiment.
which can be paraphrased as "something that follows from what really
happened (bhUtam)"
Hence the use of "anu-" as "follows" in anubhava makes a lot of sense.
anuvAda:
I've seen anuvAdaH used by scholars both in the sense of
"repeating like a parrot after someone else" and "translation".
After all, true translation is supposed to look almost like repeating
after someone else but in a different language, isn't it?
similarly, true transliteration is supposed to be repeating after someone else
but in a different script.
> As an upasarga anu- is too undefined in meaning, so no
> analogies may be drawn.
atra lack of definition na dRSyate bhoH!
I see no such confusion in all the examples you quoted below. Maybe we
need to use different english words to explain different instances, but
to me all of the words you quoted fit the
"follow, go along with"
meaning of
"anu-".
> anu-rUpa = according to form = befitting
A rUpa that follows or goes well along with XYZ. i.e., meshes well with
- Sai.
Jay Vaidya uvaacha:
> anu- might work. But it may not be exact.
>
> As an upasarga anu- is too undefined in meaning, so no
> analogies may be drawn.
>
> Sai gave the example of anuvAda: "expression that
> follows the intent of another expression"
> But also:
> anukaraNa - doing LIKE somone (=imitate)
> anubhava - experience (nothing to do with bhava!)
> anunaya - take along
> anupreshhaNa - send along with
>
> With other compounds its meaning is also consistently
> "according to" or "similar"
> e.g.,
> anu-loma = according to the [direction of the] hair
> (said of certain allowable kinds of intercaste
> marriage, in the sense that movement against the hair
> is painful, so prati-loma are the less acceptable
> forms of intercaste marriages. Refers to past, not
> current social order!)
> anu-rUpa = according to form = befitting
> anu-jyeshhTham = according to seniority
>
> So anu+"lipi" not being upasarga, we will most likely
> think of the consistent meaning "according to script"
> or "similar script". Which may be okay. But the sense
> of transporting from one script to the other may not
> be as apparent.
>
> bhAshhAntara, deshAntara, arthAntara, etc.
> specifically mean "different language", "different
> country", "different meaning", etc. So "lipyantara" is
> a regular construction (I can't remember the rule to
> quote).
>
> But I am okay with "anulipi", if that rolls off the
> tongue easier.
>
> Dhananjay
------------------------------
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End of sanskrit Digest, Vol 26, Issue 20
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