Re: 2020 Power consumption [Was: Re: MASSBUS disk emulator (Was: Unibus controller for MFM disks)]

[Paul Anderson]

That should be in the site prep documents, or the installing documentation.

On Wed, Oct 19, 2016 at 1:44 AM, Pontus Pihlgren 
wrote:

> On Tue, Oct 18, 2016 at 06:26:06PM +, Rich Alderson wrote:
> >
> > There have been 2 generations of Massbus Disk Emulator (MDE) at LCM.  The
> > one of which people have seen pictures was the first generation, created
> > when there were only 2 people working on the collection which became the
> > museum years later.
> >
>
> Ah, thanks for clarifying :)
>
> Somewhat related, how much power does a 2020 draw on average?
>
> /P
>

2020 Power consumption [Was: Re: MASSBUS disk emulator (Was: Unibus controller for MFM disks)]

[Pontus Pihlgren]

On Tue, Oct 18, 2016 at 06:26:06PM +, Rich Alderson wrote:
>
> There have been 2 generations of Massbus Disk Emulator (MDE) at LCM.  The
> one of which people have seen pictures was the first generation, created
> when there were only 2 people working on the collection which became the
> museum years later.
> 

Ah, thanks for clarifying :)

Somewhat related, how much power does a 2020 draw on average?

/P

Re: 2020 Power consumption [Was: Re: MASSBUS disk emulator (Was: Unibus controller for MFM disks)]

[Mike Ross]

On Wed, Oct 19, 2016 at 7:44 PM, Pontus Pihlgren  wrote:
> On Tue, Oct 18, 2016 at 06:26:06PM +, Rich Alderson wrote:
>>
>> There have been 2 generations of Massbus Disk Emulator (MDE) at LCM.  The
>> one of which people have seen pictures was the first generation, created
>> when there were only 2 people working on the collection which became the
>> museum years later.
>>
>
> Ah, thanks for clarifying :)
>
> Somewhat related, how much power does a 2020 draw on average?
>
> /P

Bye some enormous coincidence I was just looking through some DEC
pdp-10 brochures I have.

DEC advertised the 2020 as drawing no more power that a hairdryer; the
quoted figure was 1400w as I recall.

Mike

http://www.corestore.org
'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother.
Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame.
For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.'

Re: MFM floppy and HD emulator DREM

[Guy Sotomayor Jr]

> On Oct 18, 2016, at 5:27 PM, David Gesswein  wrote:
> 
> On Mon, Oct 17, 2016 at 01:38:19PM -0700, Guy Sotomayor Jr wrote:
>> 
>> Yes, that?s me but I have had issues with the emulator starting up 
>> reliably so that the 3174 boots.
>> 
> I haven't had any recent reports of this problem. If you wish assistance 
> with it let me know.

I haven’t had any time to work with it.  When I get a chance to get back to it
and still have problems, I’ll let you know.

TTFN - Guy

Re: FS (cost of shipping): AS/400 8-port twinax concentrator/adapter cables

[Pontus Pihlgren]

On Tue, Oct 18, 2016 at 12:34:50PM -0400, J wrote:
> I have two IBM 21F5093 AS/400 8-port twinax to DB25 adapters with clip
> mounts.

Maybe! I've been on the lookout for a 72X5645 which is a 4-port twinax 
break out box. I supposedly need it for my AS/400 9406-170. (I have the 
pig-tail and terminal).

I'm fairly new to this, do you know if the 21F5093 performs the same 
function as the 72X5645 and if the connector will go on my 170?

Thanks in advance,
Pontus.

Re: MFM floppy and HD emulator DREM

[David Gesswein]

On Mon, Oct 17, 2016 at 02:32:31PM -0400, Mike Stein wrote:
> No experience myself, but FWIW several Cromemco owners have used David's 
> unit successfully with Cromemco's non-standard whole-track-at-a-time 
> controller and have said good things about his willingness to work 
> with non-standard formats.
> 
> (It's also cheaper, but apparently not available at the moment, 
> unfortunately).
> 
More are on order so bare boards end of the month and assembled hopefully
in a couple weeks more.

Re: Are DEC TK50/TK70 tapes worth hanging onto?

[Mark J. Blair]

If any of those tapes are relevant to my VAX-11/730, then they might interest 
me.

-- 
Mark J. Blair, NF6X 
http://www.nf6x.net/

Re: MFM floppy and HD emulator DREM

[David Gesswein]

On Mon, Oct 17, 2016 at 01:38:19PM -0700, Guy Sotomayor Jr wrote:
> 
> Yes, that?s me but I have had issues with the emulator starting up 
> reliably so that the 3174 boots.
> 
I haven't had any recent reports of this problem. If you wish assistance 
with it let me know.

Re: VTServer/etc for V6 Unix

[Warren Toomey]

All, I had a look at the docs on V6 Unix. This doc:
http://minnie.tuhs.org/cgi-bin/utree.pl?file=V6/usr/doc/start/start
describes a way to install from tape, but it seems like it does
a block copy of a tape image to the disk.

Also, in 
http://www.tuhs.org/Archive/PDP-11/Distributions/research/Ken_Wellsch_v6/
there is a v6.tape.gz file. Unfortunately, I have no documentation on this.
It could be raw blocks, or it could be a TAP file, who knows.

Hopefully this is of some help.
Cheers, Warren

Re: Unsticking a Seagate ST-419 head

[william degnan]

On Oct 19, 2016 9:25 PM, "Alexandre Souza" 
wrote:
>
> A good bang in the side with the heavy side of a screwdriver uses to work
> flawlessly ;) (sometimes 2 or 3 bangs :D )
>
>
> 2016-10-19 23:20 GMT-02:00 Al Kossow :
>
> > I have a couple of drives I would really like to recover the data from.
> > On one of the two I've tried so far, the lowest head in the stack is
> > really stuck on.
> > Has anyone successfully unstuck a head from this era. I've tried the
> > obvious things
> > (gentle rotation in both axis, heating the platters) but there is a lot
of
> > surface
> > area on those old heads and it is pretty badly stuck.
> >
> >
> >

Put in the oven, 150 degrees, 2 mins on a
Side for 8 minutes total

Bill Degnan
twitter: billdeg
vintagecomputer.net

Re: VTServer/etc for V6 Unix

[Noel Chiappa]

> Here are some notes I made a while back, when I looked at it:
> ...
>  Block 2-xx - gubbish, apparently inodes, code, etc?

So I just realized something's incomplete here. There's an intermediate stage
(loading 'xxyy', where 'xx' is "tm" or "ht", and 'yy' is "rk", "rp" or "hp").
Those must be in stored in that block "2-xx" area, but I'm not up for
grokking the assembler ("tpboot.s") that loads them to see how it works (it
takes a file-name, 'xxyy' as above, entered at the console).

And I got the tape files slightly wrong: mcopy.s is indeed the tape copier
program (assembled with either tm.s or ht.s, and one of rk.s, rp.s and hp.s),
to produce the 'xxyy' files above. However, the first stage booter is
"tpboot.s", not "mboot.s" (didn't look closely enough); again, assembled with
either tm.s or ht.s - that produces the first-stage bootstrap that goes in
blocks 0 and 1 of the tape.

Noel

Re: Are DEC TK50/TK70 tapes worth hanging onto?

[Mark J. Blair]

> On Oct 19, 2016, at 5:04 PM, Ethan Dicks  wrote:
> 
>> ... but I would have thought
>> either TU58 or 9-track would have been a more likely software delivery
>> mechanism for a VAX-11/730 back in the day.
> 
> Indeed (or RL02... that was a valid distribution medium choice,
> especially since most of the 11/730s had an RL02 on top not a magtape
> drive.

I’m especially interested in accumulating good RL02 packs. I’m even working on 
a project to add a USB interface to one of my RL02 drives for imaging and 
writing packs.

-- 
Mark J. Blair, NF6X 
http://www.nf6x.net/

Re: VTServer/etc for V6 Unix

[Noel Chiappa]

> From: Warren Toomey

> This doc: .. describes a way to install from tape, but it seems like it
> does a block copy of a tape image to the disk.

Yup, that's the standard V6 install from tape. It uses the two programs I
mentioned in the last message; first mboot (which produces the '=' prompt),
and then mcopy (assembled with the appropriate disk and tape drivers), which
is used to copy disk images to the disk.


> Also .. there is a v6.tape.gz file. Unfortunately, I have no
> documentation on this. It could be raw blocks, or it could be a TAP
> file, who knows.

I looked into this previously. The other three files:

  root.v6.tar.gz
  doc.v6.tar.gz
  usr.v6.tar.gz

are just TAR dumps of the 3 disk images on the V6 distribution tape: the root
(includes kernel source, and most of the binaries), usr (source for all
commands), and documentation.

The v6.tape seems to be an image of V6 distribution tape. Here are some
notes I made a while back, when I looked at it:

  The first 100 512-byte tape blocks contain the tape bootstrap stuff. Blocks
  100 - 4099 are the RK05 root image, blocks 4100 - 8099 are the /usr RK05
  image, and the blocks 8100 - 12099 are the /doc RK05 image. .. The most
  recent timestamp on any file in /usr and /doc is July 19th 1975, as with
  Dennis' copy. However, the most recent file timestamp on root is October
  11th, 1975

  Block 0 on tape - mboot (tm tape booter)
  Block 1 on tape - hboot (ht tape booter)

  Block 2-xx - gubbish, apparently inodes, code, etc?

  Block 98 on tape - hpuboot
  Block 99 on tape - rpuboot
  Block 100 on tape - rkuboot

HTH.

Noel

Re: Unsticking a Seagate ST-419 head

[Alexandre Souza]

A good bang in the side with the heavy side of a screwdriver uses to work
flawlessly ;) (sometimes 2 or 3 bangs :D )


2016-10-19 23:20 GMT-02:00 Al Kossow :

> I have a couple of drives I would really like to recover the data from.
> On one of the two I've tried so far, the lowest head in the stack is
> really stuck on.
> Has anyone successfully unstuck a head from this era. I've tried the
> obvious things
> (gentle rotation in both axis, heating the platters) but there is a lot of
> surface
> area on those old heads and it is pretty badly stuck.
>
>
>

Re: VTServer/etc for V6 Unix

[Dennis Boone]

 > Yes, I have those, thanks; those are the 1-block programs I mentioned
 > to Warren:

 > One can't actually boot V6 Unix directly from a V6 distribution tape,
 > all one can do is copy the disk images from the tape to the disk; one
 > then boots from the disk. (Although now that I look, there is
 > tpboot.s, which claims to boot from a file on a 'tp' format tape. But
 > I don't think V6 was ever distributed in that form - and in any case,
 > it would still need a disk with a Unix file system, with appropriate
 > files - init, sh, etc - already on it, to be able to boot Unix that
 > way.)

Well yes, the discussion already seemed to have established that it
would be necessary to convert vt.s from vtserver to work with the v6
mdec bits, and to use an emulator to do the rk install using the tape,
then figure out how to reduce the setup to fit on the rx.

De

Re: VTServer/etc for V6 Unix

[Noel Chiappa]

> From: Warren Toomey wkt at tuhs.org 

> To load V6, you need to build a virtual tape which replicates the V6
> tape.

Err, there's the problem. The V6 boot tape consists of 3 'dd' images of RK05
V6 file systems (one each root, source, and doc), with a 'boot block' on the
tape which can copy them to RK05 packs; there is no standalone 'mkfs', etc.

Now, if I were willing to wait for the transfer of the entire 4K blocks, I
could use that approach, but... my only working mass storage device
(currently - more on the way, at some point) is an RX02 - much smaller. So I
_can't_ go that way, my only choice is to replicate the V7-type process
(stand-alone 'mkfs', etc), for V6.

Although I suppose I could use an emulator (I have been using Ersatz-11 to
run V6 for quite a while now) to produce a RX02-sized file system, with just
the stuff it needs to boot ('init', 'sh', etc), and use VTServer to transfer
that over. And I'd probably have to tweak the client-side code to write raw
images to disk (not sure if it already knows how to do that).

> the problem is that both "boot" and "vtboot.pdp" contain the
> client-side code to talk to the server, and it seems that I didn't
> supply the source code for this.
> ...
> Hah, the file .. v7_standalone.tar.gz has the source code for the
> standalone tools

Yup, found that some years back when I first found VTServer.

> Alternatively, if you have a working V6 environment (e.g. a simulator),
> you could bring in the vtclient.c code and integrate it into the V6
> boot binary.

The only V6 boot mechanisms are 1-block programs that go into block 0 of
device 0 and which boot Unix directly from that file-system (type a file
name, and it loads that file and starts it). So there is no second-stage boot
program to integrate the VT client into (although obviously I could port the
second-stage bootstrap to V6).


> From: Ian S. King

> I know I made it work and booted V6 on my 11/34.

I'll start with getting VTServer to run under V6 (my only Unix, don't have
anything later :-), so if you turn up whatever you used to boot V6, it would
probably still be useful.

Noel

Unsticking a Seagate ST-419 head

[Al Kossow]

I have a couple of drives I would really like to recover the data from.
On one of the two I've tried so far, the lowest head in the stack is really 
stuck on.
Has anyone successfully unstuck a head from this era. I've tried the obvious 
things
(gentle rotation in both axis, heating the platters) but there is a lot of 
surface
area on those old heads and it is pretty badly stuck.

Re: Photos from the NWA Auction

[Cory Heisterkamp]

On Tue, Oct 18, 2016 at 4:46 PM, Jason T  wrote:

> On Tue, Oct 18, 2016 at 7:57 AM, Ben Sinclair  wrote:
> > Great photos! I'm curious as to how long ago this equipment was in
> > operation. The photos here and on the auction site almost looked like
> > someone just got up and walked away, at least from the desks and office
> > supplies, etc. that I saw.
>
> Perhaps more recently than one would think.  It's not like there were
> newer systems they could have used to keep their simulators running
> (tho I did see some PCs in the room that may have been performing the
> tasks of the older machines?)
>
> I would have loved to have been there at the clean-out.  A nice
> example of a proper old datacenter, preserved.
>
> Wonder if anyone got the actual simulators/cockpits?  Fun toys but
> won't fit in your average basement...
>

The auction website is a real piece of work, all traces to completed lots
disappeared within hours, but I'm pretty sure I caught the final bid on
most of the simulators and I didn't see anything that went for over $7k..
and those prices included the massive hydraulic pumps and supporting
equipment.

According to this article, it sounds like the facility was closed in 2012.
http://www.twincities.com/2016/10/07/remnants-of-northwest-airlines-pilot-training-center-up-for-grabs/
Whether or not all the computers were still in use at that time is tough to
say, but I was surprised at how clean and orderly most of the equipment was
that was left.

Has anyone been in to claim their prize(s)?

Did anyone happen to catch the final bid on the GP-4?

Re: MASSBUS disk emulator (Was: Unibus controller for MFM disks)

[Noel Chiappa]

> From: Rich Alderson

> Yes, the d/r card is strictly level conversion, and the microcode in
> the Xilinx does all the Massbus protocol.

So if you don't mind continuing to indulge my curiousity (thanks for all the
indulgence so far :-), is the D/R card a daughtercard that mounts on the Mesa
(my guess)?

Noel

Re: VTServer/etc for V6 Unix

[Noel Chiappa]

> From: Dennis Boone

> The sources for the V6 versions of the tmrk et al programs seem to be
> here:

Yes, I have those, thanks; those are the 1-block programs I mentioned to
Warren:

>> The only V6 boot mechanisms are 1-block programs that go into block 0
>> of device 0 and which boot Unix directly from that file-system 

Well, to be technical, also there are the programs to copy the disk images
from tape to disk - mcopy.s does that - etc. In case anyone looks at mcopy.s
and wonders how R5 (which contains a pointer to the console print/input
routines) gets set up, mboot.s, which will have run previously (to load the
appropriate disk-controller-specific version of mcopy off the tape) does that.

One can't actually boot V6 Unix directly from a V6 distribution tape, all one
can do is copy the disk images from the tape to the disk; one then boots from
the disk. (Although now that I look, there is tpboot.s, which claims to boot
from a file on a 'tp' format tape. But I don't think V6 was ever distributed
in that form - and in any case, it would still need a disk with a Unix file
system, with appropriate files - init, sh, etc - already on it, to be able to
boot Unix that way.)

Noel

Re: VTServer/etc for V6 Unix

[Dennis Boone]

 > > I know I made it work and booted V6 on my 11/34.

 > I'll start with getting VTServer to run under V6 (my only Unix, don't
 > have anything later :-), so if you turn up whatever you used to boot
 > V6, it would probably still be useful.

The sources for the V6 versions of the tmrk et al programs seem to be
here:

http://minnie.tuhs.org/cgi-bin/utree.pl?file=V6/usr/source/mdec

De

Re: Are DEC TK50/TK70 tapes worth hanging onto?

[Antonio Carlini]

On 19/10/16 08:46, Mark Wickens wrote:

>From a preservation perspective the best option would be to list the tape
labels. I have a friend with an extensive backup collection not yet on
bitsavers who could identify if anything I'd unique. You might find there
are only a couple not yet archived.

Thanks Mark



I looked under /bits/DEC but I don't see a lot . Is there a stash I'm 
not seeing?


I suppose I should get around to archiving my TK50s. Is there a standard
way of doing this and what metadata should one record?

Antonio

--
Antonio Carlini
arcarl...@iee.org

Re: Are DEC TK50/TK70 tapes worth hanging onto?

[Antonio Carlini]

On 18/10/16 16:32, Thomas Dzubin wrote:


But, I also have two big rubbermade containers (about half a cubic
meter) filled with TK50 and TK70 tapes which I have never used.

Some are blank, some are the boot & install media for VMS 5.5, some are
software installations, etc. etc.

In the past 25 years that I have had them, I have not once ever used
my TK50 or TK70 drives...I've always either booted off the attached
disks or netbooted.



I don't use TK50 tapes very often, but when I do, it's either to boot a 
VAX from cold

(and install VMS) or to make a standalone backup.

As for the value of the tapes, I've no idea about monetary value, but - 
in my view - they
are part of the culture associated with the machines. I probably 
wouldn't use TK50 to
install software as I already have it on CD and can set up an infoserver 
on the home
network if needed, but back in the day there were plenty of machines 
which had no easy
way to talk to a CD-ROM. When I worked in DEC that wasn't an issue, 
again because
there were infoservers around. When I was a customer, tapes were the 
only viable option for

a few of the machines (and for one it had to be 9-track tapes).

I expect that you'll get a few offers to take the carts off your hands.

Antonio

--
Antonio Carlini
arcarl...@iee.org

Re: Are DEC TK50/TK70 tapes worth hanging onto?

[Antonio Carlini]

On 18/10/16 16:38, Adrian Graham wrote:
Hi Thomas, Have you got an install media set for VAX Dibol 4.2? 
Someone here was looking for a copy a few weeks ago. 

Wasn't it ALL-IN-1?

Antonio

--
Antonio Carlini
arcarl...@iee.org

Re: Are DEC TK50/TK70 tapes worth hanging onto?

[Antonio Carlini]

On 19/10/16 01:18, Mark J. Blair wrote:

If any of those tapes are relevant to my VAX-11/730, then they might interest 
me.

I know that there was a Unibus TK50 interface but I would have thought 
either

TU58 or 9-track would have been a more likely software delivery mechanism
for a VAX-11/730 back in the day.

Antonio

--
Antonio Carlini
arcarl...@iee.org

Re: Xerox Alto restoration, part 10

[Adrian Stoness]

Saw the latest episode within hrs of it being posted :D then started
exploring the other videos that guys got some cool toys wi

I've had people coming to me asking if I had seen these videos yet here in
Winnipeg that I would.least of expected to know about this project pritty
cool ;)

tdk on IRC

On Oct 19, 2016 11:54 AM, "Liam Proven"  wrote:

> It boots, and with a borrowed mouse, GUI apps work
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GMp5EAq-Elo
>
> --
> Liam Proven • Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile
> Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk • GMail/Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven
> Skype/MSN: lpro...@hotmail.com • LinkedIn/AIM/Yahoo: liamproven
> Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) • +420 702 829 053 (ČR)
>

Xerox Alto restoration, part 10

[Liam Proven]

It boots, and with a borrowed mouse, GUI apps work

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GMp5EAq-Elo

-- 
Liam Proven • Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile
Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk • GMail/Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven
Skype/MSN: lpro...@hotmail.com • LinkedIn/AIM/Yahoo: liamproven
Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) • +420 702 829 053 (ČR)

Re: Are DEC TK50/TK70 tapes worth hanging onto?

[Glen Slick]

I have the following 12 TK50 tape cartridges with original DEC labels on them:

AQ-FP13C-BN MICROVMS V4.4 FULL BIN TK50 (2 copies)
AQ-FY80B-BN MICROVMS V4.4 BIN TK50 MANDATORY UPDATE (2 copies)
AQ-FP15C-BN MICROVMS V4.4 NET END/N TK50
AQ-JP22F-BE VMS V5.4 BIN TK50 1/2
AQ-LC99C-BE VMS V5.4 BIN TK50 2/2
AQ-NJ58B-BE VMS V5.4 BIN TK50 WARRANTY MANDATORY UPDATE
AQ-LX08H-BE VMS V5.4-1 BIN TK50
AW-FT37D-BN MICROVMS/WS V3.1 BIN TK50
AQ-FP58A-BN MICROVMS LIC KEY TK50 1-8
AQ-FP86C-BN VAX FORTRAN V4.4 BIN TK50 FORT044 FORT

Are there already images of these tapes archived somewhere available
on the net? I wouldn't mind having images of these tapes but don't
really want to try to read them myself, if they are still currently
readable.

Re: Xerox Alto restoration, part 10

[Noel Chiappa]

> From: Liam Proven

> It boots, and with a borrowed mouse, GUI apps work

There was a new blog post which I don't think was mentioned here yet:

http://www.righto.com/2016/10/restoring-ycs-xerox-alto-day-10-new.html

but it doesn't cover the borrowed mouse; does cover getting the CPU 100%
working, though.

Noel