Re: [EVDL] battery heaters

[Lee Hart via EV]

nathan christiansn via EV wrote:

Thanks for all of your suggestions.

I am doing more research as to whether or not I actually need a battery
heater in order to charge the leaf batteries at 20 degrees fahrenheit.


Hi Nathan,

I live in Minnesota, so cold weather is very common. We just came 
through a week of sub-zero weather (and that means 0 deg.F, not 0 deg.C)!


Batteries (all types) are "cold blooded". Below some (rather arbitrary) 
temperature, manufacturers will suggest that you restrict or refrain 
from charging or using them. But it's not a hard-and-fast limit, like 
when water freezes. The truth is, the colder they get, the worse they 
perform. So it will *always* help to keep them warmer. Your range will 
be greater, and you can charge them faster.


The best solution is to add insulation. Even 1" of foam insulation makes 
a drastic improvement. With insulation, the waste heat generated by 
charging and driving may be all you need. When I drive my EV every day, 
1" of styrafoam insulation is enough to keep them warm without any extra 
heaters.


The automakers don't seem to have figured this out yet. A steel box with 
an air space around the batteries isn't "insulated". It takes a lot of 
heat to keep the batteries warm in this situation.


If you have insulation, 1 or 2 of the little 50-100 watt "battery 
blankets" that they sell for normal ICE batteries is enough. You can 
also use an electric blanket, or soil heating strips, or the heat tape 
used to keep pipes from freezing.


Without insulation, you'll need several hundred watts of heat. This is 
best done with commercial products that are built to handle the higher 
power and heat loads.


Insulation can also cause overheating in hot climates. Batteries work 
great at high temperatures; but heat can also considerably shorten their 
life. On my EVs, I make the battery boxes so I can remove the insulation 
from the lids in the summer. That, and a small fan to circulate outside 
air is enough in my climate to keep them cool.


Lee Hart
--
There is a computer disease that anybody who works with computers knows
about. It's very serious, and interferes completely with your work. The
trouble with computers is that you 'play' with them! (Richard Feynman)
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com

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Re: [EVDL] battery heaters

[Jay Summet via EV]

The Leaf battery includes PTC heater elements that the BMS controls. I 
don't know what temp the turn on at though.


I'd probably look at some of those "terrarium mats" for putting under 
gravel in the fishtank/terrariums to keep reptiles "warm enough" as they 
are designed to heat to a relatively low temperature and are relatively 
robust.


Jay

On 2/23/21 3:32 PM, nathan christiansn via EV wrote:

Thanks for all of your suggestions.

I am doing more research as to whether or not I actually need a battery
heater in order to charge the leaf batteries at 20 degrees fahrenheit.

Nathan
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[EVDL] battery heaters

[nathan christiansn via EV]

Thanks for all of your suggestions.

I am doing more research as to whether or not I actually need a battery
heater in order to charge the leaf batteries at 20 degrees fahrenheit.

Nathan
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Re: [EVDL] battery heaters

[Peter C. Thompson via EV]

The CALB batteries I had were definitely NOT happy if I tried charging 
them below 40F. Fortunately, living in San Diego at the time, that was 
not a worry.  Now that I live further north, I do have to worry (or at 
least once I get a new EV hobby build).  You are right in that you need 
to check the manual for the batteries.


Cheers, Peter

On 2/22/21 5:56 PM, Collin Kidder via EV wrote:

It heavily depends on the electrolyte / cell chemistry. I have
batteries from a Think City (made by EnerDel) and they are spec'd to
operate down to an extremely low temperature of -20C. That's -4F. I
don't think I'd charge them very hard at 0F but it seems that's in the
temperature range to be able to do so. I know that the pack has no
heater in it from the factory and people drive the things up here in
Michigan. The Think factory was in Indiana. If charging the cars in
winter was a problem we'd probably know it.


On Mon, Feb 22, 2021 at 6:48 PM nathan christiansn via EV
 wrote:

Hi all,

I live in northern utah, and it can get fairly cold here in the
winter(close to 20 fahrenheit in the night)

I am using nissan leaf batteries in my Geo Metro EV conversion. The leaf
batteries, as with most other lithium batteries, is not supposed to be
charged below 32 degrees fahrenheit.

I am worried that I will not be able to charge my EV during the winter
because of the cold outside temperatures. I also do not currently have
access to a heated garage.

I am considering adding a battery heater. I was thinking of attaching one
of those silicone heating pads that are used as ICE block heaters to
the bottom of my 2 steel battery boxes, but I was wondering if anyone had
any better ideas?

Nathan
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Re: [EVDL] battery heaters

[Peter C. Thompson via EV]

In addition to water bed heaters, check out the solid material plant 
heaters.


Another possibility is the Farnham silicon rubber heaters:
https://farnam-custom.com/custom/silicone-rubber-heaters?gclid=CjwKCAiAyc2BBhAaEiwA44-wW3g97mUaxRnzV1dviqMC0VTzI_2gHVKlrztQheItKcRWvAh9dTr50RoCOZUQAvD_BwE

Regardless of what you choose to use, be sure that the product is solid, 
can handle lots of vibration, and fails gracefully.


Best of luck!

On 2/22/21 4:47 PM, Thos True via EV wrote:

Hi Nathan,

Back in the days of lead-acid, we used water bed heaters under the
batteries to get them to an optimal temp for charging and discharging
(about 100 degrees F). I'm thinking that you are looking to keep your pack
more in the area of 50 degrees, but I expect that the same method would
work for you.

-Tom

On Mon, Feb 22, 2021 at 4:27 PM nathan christiansn via EV 
wrote:


Hi all,

I live in northern utah, and it can get fairly cold here in the
winter(close to 20 fahrenheit in the night)

I am using nissan leaf batteries in my Geo Metro EV conversion. The leaf
batteries, as with most other lithium batteries, is not supposed to be
charged below 32 degrees fahrenheit.

I am worried that I will not be able to charge my EV during the winter
because of the cold outside temperatures. I also do not currently have
access to a heated garage.

I am considering adding a battery heater. I was thinking of attaching one
of those silicone heating pads that are used as ICE block heaters to
the bottom of my 2 steel battery boxes, but I was wondering if anyone had
any better ideas?

Nathan
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Re: [EVDL] battery heaters

[Collin Kidder via EV]

It heavily depends on the electrolyte / cell chemistry. I have
batteries from a Think City (made by EnerDel) and they are spec'd to
operate down to an extremely low temperature of -20C. That's -4F. I
don't think I'd charge them very hard at 0F but it seems that's in the
temperature range to be able to do so. I know that the pack has no
heater in it from the factory and people drive the things up here in
Michigan. The Think factory was in Indiana. If charging the cars in
winter was a problem we'd probably know it.


On Mon, Feb 22, 2021 at 6:48 PM nathan christiansn via EV
 wrote:
>
> Hi all,
>
> I live in northern utah, and it can get fairly cold here in the
> winter(close to 20 fahrenheit in the night)
>
> I am using nissan leaf batteries in my Geo Metro EV conversion. The leaf
> batteries, as with most other lithium batteries, is not supposed to be
> charged below 32 degrees fahrenheit.
>
> I am worried that I will not be able to charge my EV during the winter
> because of the cold outside temperatures. I also do not currently have
> access to a heated garage.
>
> I am considering adding a battery heater. I was thinking of attaching one
> of those silicone heating pads that are used as ICE block heaters to
> the bottom of my 2 steel battery boxes, but I was wondering if anyone had
> any better ideas?
>
> Nathan
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Re: [EVDL] battery heaters

[Thos True via EV]

Hi Nathan,

Back in the days of lead-acid, we used water bed heaters under the
batteries to get them to an optimal temp for charging and discharging
(about 100 degrees F). I'm thinking that you are looking to keep your pack
more in the area of 50 degrees, but I expect that the same method would
work for you.

-Tom

On Mon, Feb 22, 2021 at 4:27 PM nathan christiansn via EV 
wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> I live in northern utah, and it can get fairly cold here in the
> winter(close to 20 fahrenheit in the night)
>
> I am using nissan leaf batteries in my Geo Metro EV conversion. The leaf
> batteries, as with most other lithium batteries, is not supposed to be
> charged below 32 degrees fahrenheit.
>
> I am worried that I will not be able to charge my EV during the winter
> because of the cold outside temperatures. I also do not currently have
> access to a heated garage.
>
> I am considering adding a battery heater. I was thinking of attaching one
> of those silicone heating pads that are used as ICE block heaters to
> the bottom of my 2 steel battery boxes, but I was wondering if anyone had
> any better ideas?
>
> Nathan
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> http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20210222/83933b19/attachment.html
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merely twice the size that it needs to be! -TNT'82
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[EVDL] battery heaters

[nathan christiansn via EV]

Hi all,

I live in northern utah, and it can get fairly cold here in the
winter(close to 20 fahrenheit in the night)

I am using nissan leaf batteries in my Geo Metro EV conversion. The leaf
batteries, as with most other lithium batteries, is not supposed to be
charged below 32 degrees fahrenheit.

I am worried that I will not be able to charge my EV during the winter
because of the cold outside temperatures. I also do not currently have
access to a heated garage.

I am considering adding a battery heater. I was thinking of attaching one
of those silicone heating pads that are used as ICE block heaters to
the bottom of my 2 steel battery boxes, but I was wondering if anyone had
any better ideas?

Nathan
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