Re: [Marxism] 44 percent of workers in Brandenburg voted AfD yesterday
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * The data is self-reported, so take that for what it's worth. The available categories being "workers", "salaried employees", "self-employed", and "retirees/pensioners". I'm curious what the breakdown for Saxony looks like. Am Montag, 2. September 2019, 23:31:59 MESZ hat Mark Lause Folgendes geschrieben: This doesn't tell us anything about how they're defining the category? Or what was going on in other places? I rethink things continually, but haven't had much reason to reconsider my sense that these terms have little practical meaning the way most people use them. On Mon, Sep 2, 2019, 11:39 AM Angelus Novus via Marxism wrote: POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * Interesting breakdown by social class: https://twitter.com/formelfriedrich/status/1168402855880994816 In confronting the rise of authoritarian far-right populism, Marxists should really re-think the old Trotskyist shibboleths about fascism being a primarily petit-bourgeois or "Bonapartist" phenomenon. It's pretty clear that the new far-right has a substantial proletarian base. _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: https://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/markalause%40gmail.com _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: https://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] 44 percent of workers in Brandenburg voted AfD yesterday
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * The following information might be of interest for readers as it concerns a wide-spread mistake which can lead to a certain confusion (or at least lack of precise data): In German language (and I am sure statistical data concerning an election in Germany rely on German sources) the word "worker" means "Arbeiter". This is however not identical with the Marxist category of the working class. "Arbeiter" usually means blue-collar or manual worker. Other sectors of the working class are a large part of the "Angestellte" (which basically means white-collar worker in the private sector) and "Beamte" or "Öffentlich Bedienstete" (which means workers in the public sector). It is a wide-spread phenomena that some sectors of the blue-collar worker who suffer strongly from de-industrialization and who have been "forgotten" by the reformist parties (which themselves become more and more dominated by middle class people) follow the reactionary racists on an electoral level. Am 02.09.2019 um 17:38 schrieb Angelus Novus via Marxism: POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * Interesting breakdown by social class: https://twitter.com/formelfriedrich/status/1168402855880994816 In confronting the rise of authoritarian far-right populism, Marxists should really re-think the old Trotskyist shibboleths about fascism being a primarily petit-bourgeois or "Bonapartist" phenomenon. It's pretty clear that the new far-right has a substantial proletarian base. _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: https://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/aktiv%40rkob.net -- Revolutionär-Kommunistische Organisation BEFREIUNG (Österreichische Sektion der RCIT, www.thecommunists.net) www.rkob.net ak...@rkob.net Tel./SMS/WhatsApp/Telegram: +43-650-4068314 --- Diese E-Mail wurde von Avast Antivirus-Software auf Viren geprüft. https://www.avast.com/antivirus _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: https://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] 44 percent of workers in Brandenburg voted AfD yesterday
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * I agree with the substantive point that working class support for the far right is real and a big concern, and also that for Marxists class is a socio-political process rather than a static sociological category. On the latter however, if we’re going to take any notice of voting (or voter or social attitude survey) data at all, as at least surface-level empirical indicators of underlying class processes, we might as well try to have the best possible indicators. There’s a lot of confusion in leftist commentary on voting and attitudes around the fact that mainstream commentary often uses an occupational/educational definitions of class rather than a Marxist definition, notwithstanding the limitations of any fixed categories for Marxist analysis. Self-employed or even employing tradespeople are often categorized as “working class”, while non-managerial white-collar workers who have zero autonomy at work and are union members can be categorized as “middle class”. The categories in the tweet in question seem to be, if google is translating accurately for me, respectively “manual workers”, “white collar employees”, “self-employed” and pensioners”, and the employer/employee relationship at least doesn’t seem mixed up. Knowing the “class” composition of each party (rather than as here the voting composition of each “class”), and any change over time, would both be good to know. With aggregate data like this we’re stuck with the categories given, and should be particularly wary of reifying them as indicating class as such. But if we’re able to get person-level survey data we might have some control over categorising respondents in a more Marxist framework. In my view the best way to do that within the limitations of most social attitudes or voter surveys is use categories of non-managerial workers (of whatever collar-colour), salaried managers, and business owners. For those interested in these issues I published an article in Capitalism, Nature, Socialism in 2012 relaying this class categorisation to attitudes and voting in the Australian Election Study, as part of an analysis of the Australian Greens (non-paywall and extended version here http://links.org.au/node/3180). More recently I’ve been noodling with the openly available 2016 Australian Election Study and have posted some notes and plots on the class composition of voting blocs here https://m.facebook.com/story/graphql_permalink/?graphql_id=UzpfSTU5NDQyMzM3NDoxMDE1Njc0MDY3OTMyODM3NQ%3D%3D and scored on an attitude to immigration scale by party vote here https://m.facebook.com/story/graphql_permalink/?graphql_id=UzpfSTU5NDQyMzM3NDoxMDE1Njc2NDE3NzQ0MzM3NQ%3D%3D The latter are steps towards regression modeling of the probability of voting for different parties, in which I expect class to have an effects on voting that’s partly direct, and partly indirect, mediated by attitudes to unions, business and immigrants (and maybe activity as participation in strikes and protests are asked about in this survey). On Tue, 3 Sep 2019 at 10:13 am, ioannis aposperites via Marxism < marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote: > POSTING RULES & NOTES > #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. > #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. > #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. > * > > > Interesting breakdown by social class: > > https://twitter.com/formelfriedrich/status/1168402855880994816 > > In confronting the rise of authoritarian far-right populism, Marxists > should really re-think the old Trotskyist shibboleths about fascism being a > primarily petit-bourgeois or "Bonapartist" phenomenon. It's pretty clear > that the new far-right has a substantial proletarian base. > > > > > >Well, I think fascism is a movement not a "authoritarian far-right > populist" party and certainly not just some pieces of paper in a ballot > box in Brandenburg. > Marxian social class is not a sociological category: "the proletariat" > is not just 'the workers" who as individuals are not immune to fascism, > let alone to "authoritarian far-right populism". > > JA > _ > Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm > Set your options at: > https://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/nick.j.fredman%40gmail.com _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: https://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] 44 percent of workers in Brandenburg voted AfD yesterday
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * Interesting breakdown by social class: https://twitter.com/formelfriedrich/status/1168402855880994816 In confronting the rise of authoritarian far-right populism, Marxists should really re-think the old Trotskyist shibboleths about fascism being a primarily petit-bourgeois or "Bonapartist" phenomenon. It's pretty clear that the new far-right has a substantial proletarian base. Well, I think fascism is a movement not a "authoritarian far-right populist" party and certainly not just some pieces of paper in a ballot box in Brandenburg. Marxian social class is not a sociological category: "the proletariat" is not just 'the workers" who as individuals are not immune to fascism, let alone to "authoritarian far-right populism". JA _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: https://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] 44 percent of workers in Brandenburg voted AfD yesterday
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * Angelus Novus wrote Interesting breakdown by social class: https://twitter.com/formelfriedrich/status/1168402855880994816 In confronting the rise of authoritarian far-right populism, Marxists should really re-think the old Trotskyist shibboleths about fascism being a primarily petit-bourgeois or "Bonapartist" phenomenon. It's pretty clear that the new far-right has a substantial proletarian base. Oh wow. So many questions. How far do we have to reach to understand a trend such as this, which becomes general and undeniable in the west, no matter how you parse class, it seems. Why is the left so weak? Are we in abject denial about that? There is nothing in the recent history of the left, as presently perceived, to give the working class any real hope in a socialist direction. Social democracy, top-down authoritarianism in left history and experience, euro-communism and the communism of the USSR and eastern Europe, the experience of Cambodia, Vietnam, Indonesia, Chile, Portugal, and failed left-Bonapartism in Venezuela, the general failure of socialism in one country, now approaching in Cuba, as in North Korea in the face of China's trajectory, China's turn toward capitalist authoritarian government, and its success for some and for how long, as AI proceeds and resource wars and chaos kick in. The absence of a viable vision for the working class among Marxists. And the effects of nationalism-chauvinism-racism-immigrant-bashing-patriarchy in a fractured capitalist society and culture. Where the existing shallow version of capitalist governance is no longer serving the interests of the majority of workers and supporting their hopes for their life chances, as that burgeoning, dynamic system has in the recent past, and the vaguest promise on the right is the only alternative left to so many - for now. We know we're in deep doodoo, and we can see only faint, flickering embers in movements of protest around the world right now. We aren't really reaching effectively for underlying conditions producing that turn to the authoritarian right. And what we can do once we understand that. Where there is no vision the people perish., and yet never more needed, in a time of powerful waning-systemic centrifugal forces moving us closer to annihilation, and the irreversible effects of the past 200 years of capitalist surge on climate. The surprise remaining may be due to the shallow nature of working class support for capitalism and its very evident lack of direction or program, and the coming economic (and environmental) collapse, which on the basis of past periodic recurrence of panic is overdue. Can we somehow come through the gathering storm without nuclear holocaust? Have contradictions in the system reached the point of impasse? Can capitalism find its way through, overcome yet another set of barriers and find its legs again? If not, socialism has an opening - if theory, from the working class itself, informs practice with a credible program and an awakened leadership. The working class appears to have come a long way on that path so far, in many vital respects, and has much experience to build on and lessons to be well-learned from. As communication, coordination and combination have become global for capitalist production, that is also true, potentially, for its adversary as well, renewing hope for solidarity. The challenge and the trend in the wrong direction seem insuperable, if we lose sight of our already amply demonstrated, potential collective genius and power, and build on it. _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: https://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] 44 percent of workers in Brandenburg voted AfD yesterday
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * This doesn't tell us anything about how they're defining the category? Or what was going on in other places? I rethink things continually, but haven't had much reason to reconsider my sense that these terms have little practical meaning the way most people use them. On Mon, Sep 2, 2019, 11:39 AM Angelus Novus via Marxism < marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote: > POSTING RULES & NOTES > #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. > #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. > #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. > * > > > Interesting breakdown by social class: > https://twitter.com/formelfriedrich/status/1168402855880994816 > In confronting the rise of authoritarian far-right populism, Marxists > should really re-think the old Trotskyist shibboleths about fascism being a > primarily petit-bourgeois or "Bonapartist" phenomenon. It's pretty clear > that the new far-right has a substantial proletarian base. > > > > > > > _ > Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm > Set your options at: > https://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/markalause%40gmail.com _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: https://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] 44 percent of workers in Brandenburg voted AfD yesterday
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * I wonder if the very concept of the "petit bourgeois" is valuable --- the "labor aristocracy" seems to be very prone to racism, xenophobic nationalism, and support for authoritarianism --- Since so many small businesses fail on a regular basis, how "permanent" is membership in the petit bourgeoisie under late capitalism? > > > _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: https://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
