Re: METACARD ACQUIRED BY RUN REV!!!
Catching up after two-week vacation... [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Can anyone give us a difference list? a summary: MetaCard Revolution Enginesame same Both use the same engine; languages features, speed etc. identical for both I am not sure this is quite correct. The core language is the same, of course, but Rev has a number of extensions to the language of MetaCard. Although they are outside the engine itself, they are defined as part of Rev's language as far as I know (probably not all MC commands are purely in engine itself either). IDE fast but spartan; feature-rich; slower few command keys in some operations and fewer palettesrequiring lots of means many trips to palette updates the menu bar I tried Rev earlier on my G3 PowerBook, my main MC development tool. The IDE took so much screen estate, I could barely work and had to constantly shift windows/palettes around. I wonder whether this got any better in 2.x. Docs bare bones; extensive; complete often presumesexamples for nearly familiarity every token; requires with UNIX;more memory compact System requirements: cpu/memory ? support list activity: posts per day ? direct support from company: email/phone/costs ? Robert ___ metacard mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/metacard
Re: METACARD ACQUIRED BY RUN REV!!!
Wow. See what happens when you only go through your lists once a week... My feelings on this are mixed, on the one hand I'm hoping Scott got a sweet deal and can retire/relax after years of hard work. I haven't read through all the RE:'s on this thread but if it hasn't been said yet then I'd just like to say thanks to Scott for everything he has done for me personally and for the list. As for RunRev, I have no feelings about them or their products one way or another. I will say this however, I truly hope that they maintain both UI's independently of each other. After using MC for the last 12 years I can honestly say that I'd probably ditch MC in a heartbeat if RunRev decided to only support their authoring environment (I'm having a hell of a time learning Flash - don't need more OUIE GUI to deal with). UI arguments aside, I doubt I'm the only one that feels this way. Hell, after 12 years I kind of know where everything is. Nothing can beat the simplicity of the MC interface! I'd like to congratulate Kevin on building up his company to what it is today as well. As Eminem would say, that's my 10 cents, my 2 cents are free. On Tuesday, July 8, 2003, at 06:15 PM, Ken Ray wrote: Just went over to the RunRev site and saw this headline: Runtime Aquires MetaCard Technology You can read all about it here: http://www.runrev.com/metacardpr.html How does everyone feel about this? I can see good and not-so-good things (depending on how RunRev acts on this)... Your thoughts? Ken Ray Sons of Thunder Software Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web Site: http://www.sonsothunder.com/ ___ metacard mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/metacard Sincerely, Simon ___ metacard mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/metacard
Re: METACARD ACQUIRED BY RUN REV!!!
The first order of business will be to set up a mailing list so that we can start discussions of how that group should be organized and later, what changes to the UI everyone wants (and are willing to contribute to!). That should help keep this list focused on *using* the UI, with some discussions of the engine technology it shares with the new standard development environment, Revolution. I'd say *this* is that mailing list. Not to put too fine a point on it but I'm exactly happy about using the RunRev UI, and if this list gets merged with theirs then I won't know what the hell people are talking about when they start mumbling about RunRev windows/palettes etc. If RunRev wants to give me a free upgrade to their current product I'd be willing to test it on my current stacks. But no promises on me liking it, I'm a big fan of the MC IDE. Huge fan. But at least you're still around Scott. I felt a wave of relief reading your post! OK, so who wants to host that mailing list? Regards, Scott PS: it's at times like this that I miss Grant Schampel ([EMAIL PROTECTED]). He always loved a good brouhaha, and always had something insightful to say about the back-room dealings that make them possible... Shari C Gypsy King Software -- --Shareware Games for the Mac-- http://www.gypsyware.com Scott Raney [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.metacard.com MetaCard: You know, there's an easier way to do that... ___ metacard mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/metacard Sincerely, Simon ___ metacard mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/metacard
Re: METACARD ACQUIRED BY RUN REV!!!
Hi Everyone, First, let me say: Welcome! We're glad to have you as members of the newly-unified team. Next I'd like to clear up a few things, and ask you to be patient. Many of you have asked what will happen to the MetaCard IDE going forward. We're still working out the exact details, but rest assured, the MetaCard IDE will continue for as long as you need it. The agreement we have guarantees that. We won't be maintaining the IDE ourselves, but we won't do anything to break it, and several people have expressed interest in keeping it compatible as the engine gains new functionality over time. That said, we're happy to have those who want to switch to the Revolution IDE do so, and we're offering incentives to encourage you to switch. A number of you have asked about our policy on releasing updates, and specifically how it will compare with Scott's in the past for MetaCard. There's no denying that we're more aggressive than Scott has been. Also, there have been times when our schedule slipped. We're working to address these issues, and we're making progress. Ensuring that each release has as few bugs as possible is a priority. In addition, some of you have requested more communication regarding a variety of issues during the timeframe of the buyout. This email is a response to those requests. Apart from the information above, I have to ask that you be patient, as hard as I know that is. We're going to have a booth at MacWorld CreativePro, and we're all extremely busy with preparations. Rest assured that email you send is being read. If any of you are going to the show, we invite you to stop by and see what we have in store for the next release. We'll be making several announcements on the mailing lists in the coming week as well. Finally, let me just say again how exciting it is to have you all as members of our extended team. You have a level of experience and a sense of history that we need going forward. We have many things planned for the next few months, and we think you'll be as excited by them as we are. Having Revolution and MetaCard under one roof is going to be great! Kind regards, Kevin Kevin Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.runrev.com/ Runtime Revolution Limited: Software at the Speed of Thought Tel: +44 (0) 870 747 1165. Fax: +44 (0)1639 830 707. ___ metacard mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/metacard
Re: METACARD ACQUIRED BY RUN REV!!!
From the FAQ on the press release page at http://www.runrev.com/metacardpr.html: What happens to existing MetaCard customers? Existing customers will get a free upgrade to Revolution with their next subscription renewal. What does that mean? Can I cross-grade now or do I have to wait until Nov 2003? And when I read this I literally see that they are offering a FREE upgrade from my 2.5 license when it expires in Nov. That does sound good, but I bet I'm not reading it the way they intended it to sound. Sincerely, Simon ___ metacard mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/metacard
Re: METACARD ACQUIRED BY RUN REV!!!
Not to put too fine a point on it but I'm exactly happy about using the RunRev UI Whoops, that should read I'm NOT exactly happy... Sincerely, Simon ___ metacard mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/metacard
Fwd: METACARD ACQUIRED BY RUN REV!!!
Wow. See what happens when you only go through your lists once a week... My feelings on this are mixed, on the one hand I'm hoping Scott got a sweet deal and can retire/relax after years of hard work. I haven't read through all the RE:'s on this thread but if it hasn't been said yet then I'd just like to say thanks to Scott for everything he has done for me personally and for the list. As for RunRev, I have no feelings about them or their products one way or another. I will say this however, I truly hope that they maintain both UI's independently of each other. After using MC for the last 12 years I can honestly say that I'd probably ditch MC in a heartbeat if RunRev decided to only support their authoring environment (I'm having a hell of a time learning Flash - don't need more OUIE GUI to deal with). UI arguments aside, I doubt I'm the only one that feels this way. Hell, after 12 years I kind of know where everything is. Nothing can beat the simplicity of the MC interface! I'd like to congratulate Kevin on building up his company to what it is today as well. As Eminem would say, that's my 10 cents, my 2 cents are free. On Tuesday, July 8, 2003, at 06:15 PM, Ken Ray wrote: Just went over to the RunRev site and saw this headline: Runtime Aquires MetaCard Technology You can read all about it here: http://www.runrev.com/metacardpr.html How does everyone feel about this? I can see good and not-so-good things (depending on how RunRev acts on this)... Your thoughts? Ken Ray Sons of Thunder Software Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web Site: http://www.sonsothunder.com/ ___ metacard mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/metacard Sincerely, Simon Sincerely, Simon ___ metacard mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/metacard
Fwd: METACARD ACQUIRED BY RUN REV!!!
The first order of business will be to set up a mailing list so that we can start discussions of how that group should be organized and later, what changes to the UI everyone wants (and are willing to contribute to!). That should help keep this list focused on *using* the UI, with some discussions of the engine technology it shares with the new standard development environment, Revolution. I'd say *this* is that mailing list. Not to put too fine a point on it but I'm exactly happy about using the RunRev UI, and if this list gets merged with theirs then I won't know what the hell people are talking about when they start mumbling about RunRev windows/palettes etc. If RunRev wants to give me a free upgrade to their current product I'd be willing to test it on my current stacks. But no promises on me liking it, I'm a big fan of the MC IDE. Huge fan. But at least you're still around Scott. I felt a wave of relief reading your post! OK, so who wants to host that mailing list? Regards, Scott PS: it's at times like this that I miss Grant Schampel ([EMAIL PROTECTED]). He always loved a good brouhaha, and always had something insightful to say about the back-room dealings that make them possible... Shari C Gypsy King Software -- --Shareware Games for the Mac-- http://www.gypsyware.com Scott Raney [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.metacard.com MetaCard: You know, there's an easier way to do that... ___ metacard mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/metacard Sincerely, Simon Sincerely, Simon ___ metacard mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/metacard
Re: METACARD ACQUIRED BY RUN REV!!!
As Scott said the MC IDE is now open source so you can continue to maintain an engine license and use the MC IDE instead of Rev. It's up to you if you want to switch or not but it seems that all development will go into the engine and the Rev IDE. As long as the new features are documented then I don't see why I need RunRev. I can just code it if I know about it. Do we have any idea how this will work? For example, if you have a Rev license will you be able to use your choice of Rev, MC or FreeGUI (or whatever else)? That seems to be the most logical way to do things. Cheers Monte ___ metacard mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/metacard Sincerely, Simon ___ metacard mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/metacard
Re: METACARD ACQUIRED BY RUN REV!!!
Richard MacLemale [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: There's a decent chance that MetaCard 2.5 will run on the Mac OS for another 5 years without breaking. Just as HyperCard runs smoothly under Classic on my iceBook ;-)) ___ metacard mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/metacard
Re: METACARD ACQUIRED BY RUN REV!!!
There's a decent chance that MetaCard 2.5 will run on the Mac OS for another 5 years without breaking. Just as HyperCard runs smoothly under Classic on my iceBook ;-)) Ah but OSX surely breaks Hypercard, unless you are running in Classic mode. And the new boxes don't even support Classic mode from what I've read. Who can say that a future OS won't break MC 2.5? -- --Shareware Games for the Mac-- http://www.gypsyware.com ___ metacard mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/metacard
Re: METACARD ACQUIRED BY RUN REV!!!
Shari wrote: There's a decent chance that MetaCard 2.5 will run on the Mac OS for another 5 years without breaking. Just as HyperCard runs smoothly under Classic on my iceBook ;-)) Ah but OSX surely breaks Hypercard, unless you are running in Classic mode. And the new boxes don't even support Classic mode from what I've read. Who can say that a future OS won't break MC 2.5? If nothing else, MC 2.5 doesn't support nifty things like drawers, slated for a future release. New Macs run Classic, they just won't boot into Classic natively. This destroys only a subset of Classic applications. ;) -- Richard Gaskin Fourth World Media Corporation Developer of WebMerge 2.2: Publish any database on any site ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.FourthWorld.com Tel: 323-225-3717 AIM: FourthWorldInc ___ metacard mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/metacard
Re: METACARD ACQUIRED BY RUN REV!!!
From: Alain Farmer [EMAIL PROTECTED] Now, like I said... If I were to be able to trade my 2.5 license right now for a Rev 2.0.1 license, in an even trade, I would do it and Revolution would have one more user. Revolution wouldn't make any money off of me right now, but they're not going to anyway because I'm not going to spend $300. This sums up rather well my gut-feeling on this issue as well. MC and RR have merged into one.. so should we, but not by immediately dishing out more cash. Our investment in MC should 'port' to RR without any hassle whatsoever. That's what would make us happy. ;-) Yep. INCLUDE MCers under the Rev tent and make a happy familty! I may have to rotate my tires, but I don't need to buy four new ones. Ray G. Miller __ Turtlelips Productions 4009 Everett Ave. Oakland, CA 94602 MailTo:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (V) 510.530.1971 (F) 510.482.3491 ___ metacard mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/metacard
Re: METACARD ACQUIRED BY RUN REV!!!
If nothing else, MC 2.5 doesn't support nifty things like drawers, slated for a future release. New Macs run Classic, they just won't boot into Classic natively. This destroys only a subset of Classic applications. ;) I didn't realize this. I've heard a lot of talk that Classic simply will not run on the new machines. Hmm... this is interesting news. What are drawers? Which reminds me of a feature request I definitely want (if you are out there Kevin ... ;-) I believe they are called slots. Where you have a bunch of small images (such as with a tile-based game) that makes up ONE graphic image, perhaps this is called a sheet? At any rate, you can call up one tile from the sheet. So instead of having 1000 little graphic images, you have maybe 100, with 100 slots each. -- --Shareware Games for the Mac-- http://www.gypsyware.com ___ metacard mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/metacard
Re: METACARD ACQUIRED BY RUN REV!!!
Ken Ray a écrit: Just went over to the RunRev site and saw this headline: Runtime Aquires MetaCard Technology You can read all about it here: http://www.runrev.com/metacardpr.html How does everyone feel about this? I can see good and not-so-good things (depending on how RunRev acts on this)... Your thoughts? Ken Ray Sons of Thunder Software Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web Site: http://www.sonsothunder.com/ ___ metacard mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/metacard Allo Friends, I just hope that this will do both Kevin and Scott stronger and able to build great new issues of our prefered XTalk. Bests, Pierre ___ metacard mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/metacard
Re: METACARD ACQUIRED BY RUN REV!!!
Ken Ray a écrit: Just went over to the RunRev site and saw this headline: Runtime Aquires MetaCard Technology You can read all about it here: http://www.runrev.com/metacardpr.html How does everyone feel about this? I can see good and not-so-good things (depending on how RunRev acts on this)... Your thoughts? Ken Ray Sons of Thunder Software Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web Site: http://www.sonsothunder.com/ ___ metacard mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/metacard Allo Friends, I just hope that this will do both Kevin and Scott stronger and able to build great new issues of our prefered XTalk. Bests, Pierre ___ metacard mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/metacard
RE: METACARD ACQUIRED BY RUN REV!!!
both IDEs run off the same engine. Your code will open right up in the Rev IDE without change. When you compile your programs, they will use Just tried loading my mc home stack into rev2 ... didn't work :) alex ___ metacard mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/metacard
Re: METACARD ACQUIRED BY RUN REV!!!
Shari, You should have more faith and trust in OpenSource. To begin with, many many dozens of old HyperCard stacks still run on MC... Then you have the great many _javascript_, java, PHP or C source codes on the net - many more than any commercial company can output in 20 years... I haven't found many that didn't work! Compare that to the many professionaly built programs that dont! If you dont believe or contribute to opensource, it it not going to get better. But it will and without you! MC is gone that way IMOHO... The engine is awesome, the GUI, well, I dont have much positive to say about it... But it's far more inviting than RR. RR on the other hand is much more complete, and professional looking - it's just a bit overloaded IMOHO. The problem is that nothing is perfect! I always thought Lotus Notes would be great to use since it's quite close to XOS or even metacard (in phylosophy) but now I've tried it, Im puking all over every feature it has that doesn't work correctly or does incorrectly... But in this perfect world, we like you rumbling Shari! BTW my Control Browser (and there are others!) is far beyond any you have seen in RunRev or MetaCard... Simpler, faster, more power and definitely no bloat! If one or 2 persons would have helped, it would be beyond your wildest dreams with more features and less bugs than any other product. You can get an outdated preview at [http://monsieurx.com/modules.php?name=Newsfile=articlesid=100] Yesterday, I did something amazing: I just copied/pasted a script editor grouped-object from XOS into the script editor of the control browser, and other than the save script script, it worked right off. Less bugs, more standards, more features... You choose... You can sort the columns, collapse the window with a double click or even search all the stack items and their controls! Im also working on making changes to more than one item, and versioning, custom props, themes, styles, etc... and OpenSource!!! Soon and thanks to ClipperX text-editor grouped-object you will even have html text editing and the rest... Additive is a quality for XOS and most of my software - I keep hearing GREAT, woah!, etc... You be the judge. I just never get many comments, help or bug reports... Let alone investment requests or incentiveware fees! Not even a beer! So Im not motivated to help anymore more... Too much leeching. But I do it for my own development and couldn't live without it! As far as marketing, I can tell you that a running product will sell. A nicely designed program will sell better but not longuer. New features and GUI design is what sells upgrades... So I hope this works for RR and it's new users... -=- Xavier Bury TNS NT LAN Server ext 6465 Shari [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent by: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 09/07/03 16:06 Please respond to metacard To:[EMAIL PROTECTED] cc:^ Subject:Re: METACARD ACQUIRED BY RUN REV!!! If this is all you worry about, you can rest easy. I'll continue to be a part of the engine development team for the foreseeable future, and though my control over the direction of the technology and management will be greatly diminished, I have complete confidence in the team at Runtime Revolution. They're just better managers and marketers than I ever was ;-) Scott, If you learn any new marketing tricks, let us know! They say that developers often make the worst marketers, which is why it is so difficult to succeed in this business. We'd rather stay glued to the keyboard and code, than pound the pavements strutting our stuff. Kinda reminds me of Apple/Windows. Apple had the better product, but Billy was the marketing genius, and so snatched up the majority of marketshare. If I am understanding this, in the future, if you took the Rev engine, but replaced the stacks (Home, Help, Metacard Menubar, etc.) with the current MC stacks, it would run? There were features I liked about Rev when I tried it, like sorting the contents of the Control Browser. There were other features that got in the way, though I truthfully don't recall what they were. I don't have a lot of faith in Open Source carrying a product into the future as something you can rely on for years to come. I'm not aware of an open source program that has been around for at least 10 years, is stable, and of this magnitude. Since nobody makes money from open source, there is nothing to keep it alive but heart, and that usually fades with time. Sometimes new blood in a company is a positive thing. Sometimes not. I still bitch every time I use OSX, as it is so Windows-like. I miss being able to double click the title bar to collapse a window (yes I know you can get programs to do this, but before, we didn't have to). I despise having to go thru Are you sure you want to... dialogs every time I click a button. I miss being able to color folders, so that certain ones stand out and remind me
Re: METACARD ACQUIRED BY RUN REV!!!
At 7:23 AM -0700 7/9/03, Richard MacLemale wrote: Existing customers will get a free upgrade to Revolution with their next subscription renewal. Which is essentially a paid cross-grade. It means that the next time I get ready to fork over 300 bucks to MetaCard I give it to Rev instead and then I get Rev. Which means I'm paying 300 for Rev. Not exactly. You pay $300 for your normal upgrade, and get a Revolution cross-grade for free along with it. So the outcome is that if you want to switch at the time of your next renewal, you can do so for free, but you retain the option of staying with MC. ___ metacard mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/metacard
Re: METACARD ACQUIRED BY RUN REV!!!
The only thing I can think of that might be different is that Rev uses different default fonts and sizes. If you have any fields that use text defaults, they may look different (text will be smaller.) Other than that, I can't think of anything that would affect your stack. I know some slipped thru the cracks, as initially I chose Helvetica as the default, only to discover it was not very consistent on the platforms, so I switched to Arial for most text, and occasionally Verdana. They seem to be pretty consistent from platform to platform. I do set a default for the stack at the very least. But I didn't initially. Created a bit of anarchy there for a moment. The good news is that as soon as I come back from vacation (the Shareware Industry Conference just happens to be in my hometown :-) I will be back to work on my favorite project, and can put to good use all I've learned from porting two into MC from HC and writing one from the ground up in MC. One anomaly I've found is that sometimes when I'm setting colors for things, all of Metacard suddenly becomes colored, and nothing fixes it but a quit/relaunch. Anybody else experience this? I wonder if I should bombard Kevin with the anomalies I've had to find workarounds for... such as random(0) = 1, and that the Mac menubar won't update when you hide/show btns in it, unless you click outside the stack and back in... I had to come up with a really klutzy workaround for that one. Or that sometimes front/backscripts disappear, presumably something in a MC written handler resets them, deleting mine. So on resume stack, I have to reset them or that Hypercard soundchannels (without a player object) would be nice... Maybe I'll let him catch his breath first :-) Shari C -- --Shareware Games for the Mac-- http://www.gypsyware.com ___ metacard mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/metacard
RE: METACARD ACQUIRED BY RUN REV!!!
Besides, no *serious* programmer has only one tool in his or her kit because no one tool is a panacea. Yep, that's the *best* insurance! For those of you who know the traditional languages, the rest of us can only wish. It took a year to decide whether to migrate to MC or take the plunge and learn C. Learning a traditional language would easily set me back two years, and I don't know about you guys, but the two days a week I'm forced to work at a job I despise, while I'm working like hell to build my company, isn't something I want to have to do another two years to add a backup to the toolbox. I'm hoping to have the option to go full time with my company in 2004, and blow those buggers off. Being a * serious * programmer has nothing to do with it. I work 7 days a week most weeks. And am very determined. I envy those of you who are 35 and under, who at least had computer access as a teenager. I am 40+. In school, we had manual typewriters, not electronic, not electric, but MANUAL. Computers were something that existed for IBM and the big companies. Nobody I knew had one at home. I never even saw one until I was in my late twenties/early thirties, and then it was a DOS computer at a store. Didn't impress me. Looked like a glorified word processor, so I never bothered to dig deeper. I got a very very late start at this, so time to me is a big issue. That's why I get so tweaky at anything that sucks time away. I don't know a traditional language, I taught myself via Hypercard to program. C is gobbledygook to me. And my primary goal is Gypsy King Software. It isn't a hobby. It is my company. My heart and soul :-) So beware what criteria you use to define a * serious programmer *. Shari C Gypsy King Software, Inc. -- --Shareware Games for the Mac-- http://www.gypsyware.com ___ metacard mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/metacard
Re: METACARD ACQUIRED BY RUN REV!!!
On 10/7/03 2:51 pm, Shari [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Maybe I'll let him catch his breath first :-) Thanks :-) But rest assured, we have a great program of updates and upgrades planned. Kevin Kevin Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.runrev.com/ Runtime Revolution Limited: Software at the Speed of Thought Tel: +44 (0) 870 747 1165. Fax: +44 (0)1639 830 707. ___ metacard mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/metacard
RE: METACARD ACQUIRED BY RUN REV!!!
Shari wrote: I envy those of you who are 35 and under, who at least had computer access as a teenager. I am 40+. And my primary goal is Gypsy King Software. It isn't a hobby. It is my company. My heart and soul :-) So beware what criteria you use to define a * serious programmer *. I'm approaching 60, Shari. When I was in school, IBM didn't exist. I appreciate the irony in your reply. I stand by my original observation. If you're creating a company that is your future around software, you really cannot afford NOT to have at least a couple of languages in your toolkit. That doesn't mean you have to stop everything for a year or two while you master another language/tool, but I think it *does* mean you have to start working into your jammed schedule some time to begin that process. Take it from someone who's started a half-dozen software companies over the years: standardizing on one tool, unless that tool is something like C++ or Java or even Smalltalk with a lot of company and industry momentum, is a recipe for serious heartache.
Re: METACARD ACQUIRED BY RUN REV!!!
Shari a écrit : Besides, no *serious* programmer has only one tool in his or her kit because no one tool is a panacea. Yep, that's the *best* insurance! For those of you who know the traditional languages, the rest of us can only wish. It took a year to decide whether to migrate to MC or take the plunge and learn C. Learning a traditional language would easily set me back two years, and I don't know about you guys, but the two days a week I'm forced to work at a job I despise, while I'm working like hell to build my company, isn't something I want to have to do another two years to add a backup to the toolbox. I'm hoping to have the option to go full time with my company in 2004, and blow those buggers off. Being a * serious * programmer has nothing to do with it. I work 7 days a week most weeks. And am very determined. I envy those of you who are 35 and under, who at least had computer access as a teenager. I am 40+. In school, we had manual typewriters, not electronic, not electric, but MANUAL. Computers were something that existed for IBM and the big companies. Nobody I knew had one at home. I never even saw one until I was in my late twenties/early thirties, and then it was a DOS computer at a store. Didn't impress me. Looked like a glorified word processor, so I never bothered to dig deeper. I got a very very late start at this, so time to me is a big issue. That's why I get so tweaky at anything that sucks time away. I don't know a traditional language, I taught myself via Hypercard to program. C is gobbledygook to me. And my primary goal is Gypsy King Software. It isn't a hobby. It is my company. My heart and soul :-) So beware what criteria you use to define a * serious programmer *. Shari C Gypsy King Software, Inc. -- --Shareware Games for the Mac-- http://www.gypsyware.com ___ metacard mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/metacard Hello Shari, List I never seen before some one i could describe as a generic serious programmer ;-)... I can just say that we have, there in France (but perhaps is it different in the USA ;-]), diffrent kind of serious people working in the software development : Some ones are both Software designers + developpers (Enginers and Self-learning computer sciences peoples), Some ones are Software developpers (using only academic methods and tools - Enginers and Self-learning computer sciences peoples), Some ones are Security administrators (mostly Enginers peoples), Some ones are Databases administrators (mostly Enginers peoples), The most of them are, only, software administrators (even if they are often thinking to be developpers, mostly Enginers or technikers peoples)... Don't worry about the ones that are saying that they are the serious ones. Just look at wwhat they are working on... Building an app from ground is like writting a book. It's an hard work and not only a technical task. Because some tools are only dedicated to code academic things (Pascal, C, Java) and some other tools are best builded to let us think the design in the same time we are coding the resulting apps (Xtalks, Omnis Studio, Rexx), there is, naturally, a (stupid) conflict between the ones saying a serious app can only be written in using conservative methods (aka Pascal, C, C++,...) and the ones that, alike me, are thinking that they have to improve the design and coding methods and techniques we needs to let our clients get what they need, where the first kind of serious developpers will have to answer them : your demand is unrealistic... You will only gets what it is possible to do inside your budget. If you wants more, give us two or tree more money... Because Revolution/Metacard is, it's at least what i believe, the best designing/developpement RAD tool available today, i think we are in the right way in going head with them. We are just walking a little before the masses and it's all. I don't think that XTalks are going to be killed by the majors computers companies in the next years. Teen years ago, Apple and Oracle tried to do so, without succes. Why could they try this again with more chances of succes, today ? I just think we are lucky guys and girls to be XTalkers designers and developpers and that the future is open. We just need to gohead in developping great apps in the AI and internet spheres, including professional-grade Web apps and ERP's. It's not always confortable to have to thing, code and write great apps, great books but, to the end, we are always lots more happy about the results than the ones that are only coding hard without thinking what they are working on ! Be happy, friend... We are building a little part of the near future. Both the Kevin Miller team and Scott Raney needs to have a well powered developpers basis and all what we can do to help them, they will help us back in spending time to do RR/MC
Re: METACARD ACQUIRED BY RUN REV!!!
On 7/9/03 12:36 AM, Alex Shaw wrote: both IDEs run off the same engine. Your code will open right up in the Rev IDE without change. When you compile your programs, they will use Just tried loading my mc home stack into rev2 ... didn't work :) I didn't think I had to specify that you can't swap any of the IDE components. ;) But you can save custom Home scripts to a new stack, name it something other than home, and put it into RR's plug-ins folder. Then set it to load when Rev launches so you get basically the same thing you are used to. That's what I do -- I load the same custom library stack into both programs. I make aliases to a single library stack and place the aliases in both the MC and RR plug-ins folders so that both programs can see the same stack. Updates to the library in one program are automatically reflected in the other the next time the app launches, or whenever I type revert into the message box. -- Jacqueline Landman Gay | [EMAIL PROTECTED] HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com ___ metacard mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/metacard
Re: METACARD ACQUIRED BY RUN REV!!!
Shari wrote: I know some slipped thru the cracks, as initially I chose Helvetica as the default, only to discover it was not very consistent on the platforms, so I switched to Arial for most text, and occasionally Verdana. They seem to be pretty consistent from platform to platform. This raises a question: Now that Micro$oft has abandoned EI for the Mac, what will become of the useful set of cross-platfoprm fonts that used to be pre-installed on both Mac and Win? -- Richard Gaskin Fourth World Media Corporation Developer of WebMerge 2.2: Publish any database on any site ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.FourthWorld.com Tel: 323-225-3717 AIM: FourthWorldInc ___ metacard mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/metacard
Re: METACARD ACQUIRED BY RUN REV!!!
Shari wrote: I wonder if I should bombard Kevin with the anomalies I've had to find workarounds for... such as random(0) = 1 Under what circumstances would random(0) be expected to provide a useful result? Why not save the clock cycles by using 0 directly? and that the Mac menubar won't update when you hide/show btns in it, unless you click outside the stack and back in... I had to come up with a really klutzy workaround for that one. Does calling lock menus before the menu update and unlock menus afterward fix the issue? Or that sometimes front/backscripts disappear, presumably something in a MC written handler resets them, deleting mine. So on resume stack, I have to reset them I've been using frontscripts and backscripts extensively since they premiered in SuperCard in '97. I've found the MC implementation to be the smartest yet, and very robust. Could there be some other factor affecting those? -- Richard Gaskin Fourth World Media Corporation Developer of WebMerge 2.2: Publish any database on any site ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.FourthWorld.com Tel: 323-225-3717 AIM: FourthWorldInc ___ metacard mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/metacard
RE: METACARD ACQUIRED BY RUN REV!!!
Shari wrote: I envy those of you who are 35 and under, who at least had computer access as a teenager. I am 40+. And my primary goal is Gypsy King Software. It isn't a hobby. It is my company. My heart and soul :-) So beware what criteria you use to define a * serious programmer *. I'm approaching 60, Shari. When I was in school, IBM didn't exist. Thats interesting Dan, as IBM has been around since 1924! ___ metacard mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/metacard
RE: METACARD ACQUIRED BY RUN REV!!!
I'm approaching 60, Shari. When I was in school, IBM didn't exist. Thats interesting Dan, as IBM has been around since 1924! Yeah, bad choice of words. IBM didn't exist in the broad consciousness of the community. In 1960, when I was in high school, computers were even less evident and known than when Shari was in school. That was the point I tried to make, badly.
Re: METACARD ACQUIRED BY RUN REV!!!
On 7/10/03 11:19 AM, Jeanne A. E. DeVoto [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote, At 7:23 AM -0700 7/9/03, Richard MacLemale wrote: Existing customers will get a free upgrade to Revolution with their next subscription renewal. Which is essentially a paid cross-grade. It means that the next time I get ready to fork over 300 bucks to MetaCard I give it to Rev instead and then I get Rev. Which means I'm paying 300 for Rev. Not exactly. You pay $300 for your normal upgrade, and get a Revolution cross-grade for free along with it. So the outcome is that if you want to switch at the time of your next renewal, you can do so for free, but you retain the option of staying with MC. OK, let me be MORE specific. I currently have a legal license to run MetaCard 2.5. That means that I can program in MetaCard 2.5 from now until eternity without dishing out any more cash. I ALSO have the option of paying $300 to MetaCard for another year of upgrades. Since MetaCard 2.5 does everything I need it to, I probably would not do this. What I was saying was this - If Revolution transferred my MetaCard 2.5 license, right now, to Revolution 2.0.1, for free, I would switch from MetaCard development to Revolution development immediately and not look back. Revolution is the future. Right now, I have three choices: 1. Continue to run MetaCard 2.5 for the forseeable future, for free. 2. Purchase Revolution for Teachers for $99, but not do anything commercially. 3. Purchase Revolution for Small Business for $299, and get everything but the hardcore database stuff. 4. Renew my MetaCard license for $300 but trade it for a pro license of Revolution. Which would get me the hardcore database stuff plus direct e-mail support (for I assume one year.) Obviously, for me, 3 doesn't make any sense, because the cross-grade option of number 4 is better. And since I would maybe want to make commercial software, I've decided that 2 is out. That leaves choice 1 or 4. I can either continue to develop in MC for free, or pay $300 and end up with Revolution. Since Revolution doesn't give me anything I really need beyond what MC can do right now, I'm not going to spend 300 bucks to get it. It's not worth it to me. Now, like I said... If I were to be able to trade my 2.5 license right now for a Rev 2.0.1 license, in an even trade, I would do it and Revolution would have one more user. Revolution wouldn't make any money off of me right now, but they're not going to anyway because I'm not going to spend $300. Don't get me wrong. I TOTALLY understand why Rev is doing it this way and if I were them I'd maybe do the same thing. I do not blame them at all, because this is business. I will follow Revolution's progress, and if it ever gets to the point where it's worth $300 more than MC 2.5 to me, I'll consider purchasing it. -- :) Richard MacLemale Network Administrator J. W. Mitchell High School ___ metacard mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/metacard
Re: METACARD ACQUIRED BY RUN REV!!!
Hello Richard MacLemale and y'all, Now, like I said... If I were to be able to trade my 2.5 license right now for a Rev 2.0.1 license, in an even trade, I would do it and Revolution would have one more user. Revolution wouldn't make any money off of me right now, but they're not going to anyway because I'm not going to spend $300. This sums up rather well my gut-feeling on this issue as well. MC and RR have merged into one.. so should we, but not by immediately dishing out more cash. Our investment in MC should 'port' to RR without any hassle whatsoever. That's what would make us happy. ;-) Alain Farmer __ Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! http://sbc.yahoo.com ___ metacard mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/metacard
RE: METACARD ACQUIRED BY RUN REV!!!
What I was saying was this - If Revolution transferred my MetaCard 2.5 license, right now, to Revolution 2.0.1, for free, I would switch from MetaCard development to Revolution development immediately and not look back. Revolution is the future. So you get a better IDE and a heap of externals and RunRev get? If you aren't fussed about keeping upgraded they won't even get potential future upgrades out of the deal. What makes you think that having one more user is that important to them that they would give away their software? If it were that important they would give it away to everyone. Let's be realistic. If RunRev own the engine they can afford to wait until you need a new Rev feature or some new feature of Panther breaks your apps. Monte ___ metacard mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/metacard
Re: METACARD ACQUIRED BY RUN REV!!!
In this particular case, I can't argue that either proposition is at all unreasonable, but there is a simple way of looking at this: just imagine that Rev 2.1 (or 2.5, whatever the next major upgrade becomes) is "Metacard 3.0" when it comes out. Seeing as how the Metacard GUI will still be available, and the engine has always been the same, isn't it?? Brian What I was saying was this - If Revolution transferred my MetaCard 2.5 license, right now, to Revolution 2.0.1, for free, I would switch from MetaCard development to Revolution development immediately and not look back. Revolution is the future. -- Brian Yennie Chief Technology Officer QLD Learning, LLC www.QLDLearning.com PH: (904)-997-0212 EMAIL: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ---
RE: METACARD ACQUIRED BY RUN REV!!!
Let's be realistic. If RunRev own the engine they can afford to wait until you need a new Rev feature or some new feature of Panther breaks your apps. Monte MetaCard 2.5 runs awesome under Panther. :) Heh heh heh... I feel that the odds of me, and some other MC developers, being Rev customers increase greatly if they cross grade us now without the fee. It's not like it's never been done before... Emagic did it. They said that they were no longer going to make the Windows version of Logic, and so they offered a cross-grade to the Mac version for free. OK, so that may or may not have brought some extra folks to the Mac platform, and Apple owns Emagic, but still the point stands. They were making a switch and they wanted to bring as many of their users along as possible. RunRev would certainly like to have all of the MetaCard developers convert to Revolution, but we have to basically do the equivalent of buying their small business edition to make the change. So unless you need direct e-mail support and a lot of extra database stuff, it's really not a huge bargain. I think that there will be plenty of MetaCard users who will not upgrade right now to Rev... They'll wait around and see what future versions of Rev bring, and then maybe they'll upgrade and maybe they won't, depending on what fancy new features Rev adds. And in the meantime they will continue to use MetaCard. Let's face it, if we thought Rev was better we would have already jumped over. And we don't KNOW what we're missing. We don't know how fast RunRev responds to bugs, or how fast they respond to complaints, or how willing they are to listen to user input. People who use Rev give the company high marks in those areas, but those of us who still use MetaCard have not experienced that first hand so we don't know it. If we switched to Rev right now, and had a chance to experience being a Rev user first hand, we might become enamored with the experience and the community and it might make us more likely to renew and give them money. Which is a valid point... I think that I, and maybe some other folks, would be more likely to update Rev in the future if I could migrate without getting charged right now, as opposed to not using the product at all. Like I said, it's a calculated gamble. RunRev is gambling that MetaCard users will pay to upgrade MetaCard and then migrate, and they realize that they're going to lose some folks (like me) at least temporarily, and maybe forever, but they're willing to take that risk. They hope that at some point in time in the future we'll decide we want to buy in, and they'll take the money then. But let's not jump to the conclusion that the next version of the Mac OS will break MetaCard. There's a decent chance that MetaCard 2.5 will run on the Mac OS for another 5 years without breaking. You never know. Maybe even longer. RunRev could have pretty much every single MetaCard developer if it wanted them right now, by offering a free cross-grade. Instead, MetaCard/RunRev is going for another $300 to make it happen. They're going to make some money and they're going to lose some people. And some people they lose will come back, and some won't. In the long run, which way is better for them? I don't know. -- :) Richard MacLemale Network Administrator J. W. Mitchell High School ___ metacard mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/metacard
Re: METACARD ACQUIRED BY RUN REV!!!
Richard MacLemale wrote: Like I said, it's a calculated gamble. RunRev is gambling that MetaCard users will pay to upgrade MetaCard and then migrate, and they realize that they're going to lose some folks (like me) at least temporarily, and maybe forever, but they're willing to take that risk. MetaCard is the one application I upgrade with every version, in order to take advantage of new features, bug fixes, and to be able to provide meaningful feedback on the product's direction. I happily add the other $200 to have access to Scott's best-in-the-industry support. All in all, for what MetaCard delivers for myself and my clients, the subscription price is a bargain for me. Does your organization benefit more than $300 worth from your work with MC? Would they be willing to keep you upgraded? -- Richard Gaskin Fourth World Media Corporation Developer of WebMerge 2.2: Publish any database on any site ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.FourthWorld.com Tel: 323-225-3717 AIM: FourthWorldInc ___ metacard mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/metacard
Re: METACARD ACQUIRED BY RUN REV!!!
WRT the engine I only see good things coming out of this. Engine wise things will continue for the most part as they have for years, with Scott carefuly reviewing everything, working on language features, and keeping us on the straight and narrow. The only area where things will change is our additional attention to platform specific features (this is not Java everything needs to look right), and scott can now spend additional time on the features he wants to. Features like activex, webkit/html, databases, xml, real tables, video capture, Quartz, metal/drawers, SSL, xp look and feel, are not on a to-do list but have been implemented,or are being implemented and will be carefully integrated into the language with everyones input. We will continue to focus on stability *first* (we have a bugzilla list set up where things are reported directly to me *and* Scott), and keeping the technology cross platform (and indeed porting it to additional platforms and improving support for Unix (like unicode import and motif look and feel)). UI wise, I think the Rev 2.0 UI is a big improvement over the 1.0 version, but the MC UI will still be fully supported. Tuviah Snyder [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.runrev.com/ Runtime Revolution Limited - Software at the Speed of Thought ___ metacard mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/metacard
Re: METACARD ACQUIRED BY RUN REV!!!
I have a lot of respect for the folks at Revolution, but I chose to remain with MetaCard for a reason. Revolution's interface is bloated and overly complicated. There are some nice features, to be sure, but I chose MetaCard over Revolution for the same reason that I chose AppleWorks over Microsoft Word... I've got work that needs to be done. I need to have a simple but powerful tool, not one where feature creep has made a nightmare out of the user interface. Every time I use Word to do anything I feel like I've been in a knife fight. I can program in MetaCard in my sleep (and often have.) The idea of relearning a complicated interface and paying for the privilege does nothing for me. If Revolution wants the remaining hardcore MetaCard users, they have one serious shot at it... They need to offer a FREE cross-grade, right now. Everyone who is running MetaCard 2.5 legally should get a free cross-grade. Otherwise, what is to prevent us from just running MetaCard 2.5 for the next 4 or 5 years? I will not pay to switch to Revolution. I would, however, probably be willing to give it a fair shot if I could cross-grade right now for free. If not, well, MetaCard 2.5 runs really really well and I don't think I'll need much more than it for a while. Heck, most of the stuff I do uses the Darwin mc engine anyway. I know this post sounds harsh, but, well, I have a religious attachment to MetaCard. I totally intend on using it until it won't run on the Mac any more, and that could be another 5 to 10 years. The only thing that could possibly change my mind would be a free cross-grade. Otherwise, I don't see me seriously considering Revolution. -- :) Richard MacLemale Network Administrator J. W. Mitchell High School ___ metacard mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/metacard
RE: METACARD ACQUIRED BY RUN REV!!!
I can program in MetaCard in my sleep (and often have.) The idea of relearning a complicated interface and paying for the privilege does nothing for me. If Revolution wants the remaining hardcore MetaCard users, they have one serious shot at it... They need to offer a FREE cross-grade, right now. Everyone who is running MetaCard 2.5 legally should get a free cross-grade. Otherwise, what is to prevent us from just running MetaCard 2.5 for the next 4 or 5 years? I will not pay to switch to Revolution. As Scott said the MC IDE is now open source so you can continue to maintain an engine license and use the MC IDE instead of Rev. It's up to you if you want to switch or not but it seems that all development will go into the engine and the Rev IDE. Do we have any idea how this will work? For example, if you have a Rev license will you be able to use your choice of Rev, MC or FreeGUI (or whatever else)? That seems to be the most logical way to do things. Cheers Monte ___ metacard mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/metacard
RE: METACARD ACQUIRED BY RUN REV!!!
Features like activex, webkit/html, databases, xml, real tables, video capture, Quartz, metal/drawers, SSL, xp look and feel, are not on a to-do list but have been implemented,or are being implemented and will be carefully integrated into the language with everyones input. Great! XP look and feel has been on my wish list for ages. Cheers Monte ___ metacard mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/metacard
Re: METACARD ACQUIRED BY RUN REV!!!
Richard MacLemale wrote: I have a lot of respect for the folks at Revolution, but I chose to remain with MetaCard for a reason. Revolution's interface is bloated and overly complicated. There are some nice features, to be sure, but I chose MetaCard over Revolution for the same reason that I chose AppleWorks over Microsoft Word... I've got work that needs to be done. I need to have a simple but powerful tool, not one where feature creep has made a nightmare out of the user interface. Every time I use Word to do anything I feel like I've been in a knife fight. Thank goodness it wasn't acquired by Micro$oft. ;) I can program in MetaCard in my sleep (and often have.) The idea of relearning a complicated interface and paying for the privilege does nothing for me. If Revolution wants the remaining hardcore MetaCard users, they have one serious shot at it... They need to offer a FREE cross-grade, right now. Everyone who is running MetaCard 2.5 legally should get a free cross-grade. From the FAQ on the press release page at http://www.runrev.com/metacardpr.html: What happens to existing MetaCard customers? Existing customers will get a free upgrade to Revolution with their next subscription renewal. We strongly recommend everyone to upgrade to Revolution. However, for those existing MetaCard customers that want to continue to use the MetaCard tools, we will arrange an outside group of volunteer developers to maintain the existing MetaCard user interface so that they may do so. Otherwise, what is to prevent us from just running MetaCard 2.5 for the next 4 or 5 years? Nothing. If you prefer it, just keep using it. It will only get better as well. I would, however, probably be willing to give it a fair shot if I could cross-grade right now for free. If not, well, MetaCard 2.5 runs really really well and I don't think I'll need much more than it for a while. Heck, most of the stuff I do uses the Darwin mc engine anyway. I know this post sounds harsh, but, well, I have a religious attachment to MetaCard. Amen, brother. But as a fellow disciple of the Church of MetaCard, note that the prophet Raney is behind this move to the promised land. MC users don't have to change at all if they don't want to, but the engine development seems likely to benefit from the unified development effort. -- Richard Gaskin Fourth World Media Corporation Developer of WebMerge 2.2: Publish any database on any site ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.FourthWorld.com Tel: 323-225-3717 AIM: FourthWorldInc ___ metacard mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/metacard
RE: METACARD ACQUIRED BY RUN REV!!!
Amen, brother. But as a fellow disciple of the Church of MetaCard, note that the prophet Raney is behind this move to the promised land. And the prophet Raney, whom some call Scott, said unto the chosen ones Go forth into this new land and multiply and I shall provide. ;-) Cheers Monte ___ metacard mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/metacard
Re: METACARD ACQUIRED BY RUN REV!!!
My 2 cents... The purchase is a great idea. In all honesty (and with all the respect due to Scott and his great efforts), MC needed this badly! I've suggested many times to Scott to include some of my improved APIs, make MC more professional looking. First impression of MC is that it is not appealing and the lack of marketing doesn't help unless you read the whole site (which is not the most navigable thing i've seen), and testing MC is not easy for starters. I dont see a java or C programmer jumping bandwagon if they have tried Delphi or Metrowerks professional GUIs... The development budgets is surely not the same, but RR is on the right track!!! RR has definitely made lots of whistles and bells that make MC modern and I applaud that! I will welcome RR as soon as I can (budget allocation depending naturally, and stability testing too). Last I saw RR it was version 1.0 and it was a great first impression but the amount of bugs then just couldn't make it operable on our production servers. MC in this respect was not easy to start with but once the few bugs were tamed, it runs forever without a hitch. I hope RR is as good. I downloaded the 2.0 version. Installed it (bug dialog already in the installer!!!) but it finished installing ok. I have lots of home scripts which I can't port to the home stack - not a good start - home is where the heart of my 50 monitoring applications is!!! The GUI is not as nice as I first tought. The help window is very nice but also irritating when it changes size each time... Screen real-estate is now even more limited... OK, I wont start with my new bug list but Im not sure Im happy... I also enjoyed making MC's every internal stack and properties 10X better which now is going to be useless. The RR script editor has the same bugs as MC's so I dont see an advantage at first hand... I've heard that RR was also a bloated application - slower than MC. I dont see this at all using it. Can anyone give us a difference list? But there is a lot (if not too many) options left and right... Im sure lots of thinking went into the design but the screen real-estate is far worse than MC - I guess this takes some getting used to. BTW, you can't search the help tutorials!!! In the Encyclopedia the pop-up menus dont work... ;(( my bug/petpeeve list is already at 16 items in just one hour... Not good... -=- Xavier Bury TNS NT LAN Server Visit us at http://www.clearstream.com IMPORTANT MESSAGE Internet communications are not secure and therefore Clearstream International does not accept legal responsibility for the contents of this message. The information contained in this e-mail is confidential and may be legally privileged. It is intended solely for the addressee. If you are not the intended recipient, any disclosure, copying, distribution or any action taken or omitted to be taken in reliance on it, is prohibited and may be unlawful. Any views expressed in this e-mail are those of the individual sender, except where the sender specifically states them to be the views of Clearstream International or of any of its affiliates or subsidiaries. END OF DISCLAIMER
Re: METACARD ACQUIRED BY RUN REV!!!
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Can anyone give us a difference list? a summary: MetaCard Revolution Enginesame same Both use the same engine; languages features, speed etc. identical for both IDE fast but spartan; feature-rich; slower few command keys in some operations and fewer palettesrequiring lots of means many trips to palette updates the menu bar Docs bare bones; extensive; complete often presumesexamples for nearly familiarity every token; requires with UNIX;more memory compact -- Richard Gaskin Fourth World Media Corporation Developer of WebMerge 2.2: Publish any database on any site ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.FourthWorld.com Tel: 323-225-3717 AIM: FourthWorldInc ___ metacard mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/metacard
Re: METACARD ACQUIRED BY RUN REV!!!
I wish I saw good things here. I wish I could believe. If I embrace Rev, I see losing a year's productivity, just when I finally got where I really want to be. Nah, don't worry. You won't lose a thing; not any time, not any money. I routinely work on the same stack, at the same time, in both MC and Revolution. (It's pretty neat you can do that, actually.) Remember, the engine is exactly the same. You don't *have* to learn the IDE, though you'll probably want to pick up some of it just for ease of use eventually. The engine behavior will be identical to what you already know. Your stack will run in Rev exactly as it does now in MC, with *zero* changes. If you don't want to use the IDE, use the message box. I do that all the time when I don't want to drill down in Rev's IDE. Rev 2.0 is far more stable than the older version you tried. I have only had it crash once on me, and when I duplicated the behavior in MC, that crashed too -- so it was the engine, not the IDE. -- Jacqueline Landman Gay That does mean a lot coming from you Jacque. I know you have been immersed in both for quite awhile. It took me a very long time to make the decision to move to MC. I had already invested in the compiler and a stack of books to migrate to C. But knowing that Scott/MC had been around for 10 years, and charged enough to stay in business and not go poof, I felt safe in choosing MC over C. I believed that Metacard would not abandoned us as Hypercard had, and would move forward as necessary to keep up with the computing world. Stability of the product, and the company behind the product, are key. Shari C -- --Shareware Games for the Mac-- http://www.gypsyware.com ___ metacard mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/metacard
RE: METACARD ACQUIRED BY RUN REV!!!
Steady now... There's been no mention of forced upgrade. If you don't want to don't. Upgrade when you are ready or when you need a new engine feature. Regards Monte It wasn't an issue of forced upgrade now, but of when the time comes, the upgrade would be to * something else * . Also, I'm not sure where Rev stands on Metacard users, as far as licensing agreements and so forth. Perhaps there should be a mailout to all of us who have purchased Metacard, explaining the finer points and how they affect us. In my Blackjack game, I knew certain questions would come up, so I built a FAQ into the game to answer those questions. In effect, I answered them before they were asked. Saves a lot of scrambling when the questioners come flooding in. Shari C -- --Shareware Games for the Mac-- http://www.gypsyware.com ___ metacard mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/metacard
Re: METACARD ACQUIRED BY RUN REV!!!
If this is all you worry about, you can rest easy. I'll continue to be a part of the engine development team for the foreseeable future, and though my control over the direction of the technology and management will be greatly diminished, I have complete confidence in the team at Runtime Revolution. They're just better managers and marketers than I ever was ;-) Scott, If you learn any new marketing tricks, let us know! They say that developers often make the worst marketers, which is why it is so difficult to succeed in this business. We'd rather stay glued to the keyboard and code, than pound the pavements strutting our stuff. Kinda reminds me of Apple/Windows. Apple had the better product, but Billy was the marketing genius, and so snatched up the majority of marketshare. If I am understanding this, in the future, if you took the Rev engine, but replaced the stacks (Home, Help, Metacard Menubar, etc.) with the current MC stacks, it would run? There were features I liked about Rev when I tried it, like sorting the contents of the Control Browser. There were other features that got in the way, though I truthfully don't recall what they were. I don't have a lot of faith in Open Source carrying a product into the future as something you can rely on for years to come. I'm not aware of an open source program that has been around for at least 10 years, is stable, and of this magnitude. Since nobody makes money from open source, there is nothing to keep it alive but heart, and that usually fades with time. Sometimes new blood in a company is a positive thing. Sometimes not. I still bitch every time I use OSX, as it is so Windows-like. I miss being able to double click the title bar to collapse a window (yes I know you can get programs to do this, but before, we didn't have to). I despise having to go thru Are you sure you want to... dialogs every time I click a button. I miss being able to color folders, so that certain ones stand out and remind me of something. I can only hope this change will be a GOOD thing. It wouldn't have mattered to me if Scott added a lot of features, as long as the engine was kept up to date with the computer platforms, and of course if a major change occurred in the computer world, that it would be integrated. (Such as when computers added color, and Hypercard tacked it on but never truly integrated it as they should have.) Yes I am rambling. Where I should be off doing things that need to be done by Friday to get ready for the Shareware Industry Conference. Shari C -- --Shareware Games for the Mac-- http://www.gypsyware.com ___ metacard mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/metacard
Re: METACARD ACQUIRED BY RUN REV!!!
I too have not switched yet, but I know the time for me will be sooner than later. We can all hold hands and jump together. :) Best regards, Mark Talluto Thanks, Mark. It is good to have a friend :-) Shari C -- --Shareware Games for the Mac-- http://www.gypsyware.com ___ metacard mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/metacard
Re: METACARD ACQUIRED BY RUN REV!!!
On 7/9/03 4:05 AM, Richard Gaskin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote, Thank goodness it wasn't acquired by Micro$oft. ;) Please... Don't even joke. Their first order of business would be to drop Mac and Linux support and insert bugs... From the FAQ on the press release page at http://www.runrev.com/metacardpr.html: What happens to existing MetaCard customers? Existing customers will get a free upgrade to Revolution with their next subscription renewal. Which is essentially a paid cross-grade. It means that the next time I get ready to fork over 300 bucks to MetaCard I give it to Rev instead and then I get Rev. Which means I'm paying 300 for Rev. Which I can do anyway if I simply buy a Small Business License. So there's no real benefit, other than the fact that, I assume, my pro MC license would cross grade into a pro Rev license, which gives me access to some databases that I don't need. Don't get me wrong, for people who need to do MySQL stuff this is a decent deal. For me it's not. However, I teach students at a high school, though most of my day is network admin, so I probably qualify as a teacher. Rev's price for teachers is only $99. I had to read that twice to make sure I had the correct price. I guess I would be willing to spend 99 bucks to give Rev a shot and see if it's for me. If I ever wanted to put something out commercially I'd have to grab the small business license. I must admit that seeing some of the list's big names come out in favor or Rev has me thinking that I ought to be more open to this idea. I posted, years ago, my opinions on MetaCard and where it should head, and I said it needed a more sophisticated interface, better marketing, and a lower price. I admit that Rev has all 3. I also admit that this will lead to more programmers, which is always a good thing. Lots to think about... -- :) Richard MacLemale Network Administrator J. W. Mitchell High School ___ metacard mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/metacard
Re: METACARD ACQUIRED BY RUN REV!!!
I have a different perspective from most people on this list and probably don't have a right to a strong opinion on MC vs. RR but I figured I'd chime in anyway. Irrepressible, you know. I looked closely at both MC and RR when I decided to join the Revolution when it was still in 1.1.1 release. Yeah, there were some bugs. But when I looked at the applications I was able to build in the two environments, what struck me was that getting to an app that looked and felt polished and professional and had the appropriate platform look-and-feel on all the platforms I cared about was much more feasible in RR than in MC. The lean UI in MC put me off. It felt like a *nix application builder to which cross-platform capabilities had been added (which I gather is precisely what it was). I have built several apps in RR2 and encountered, for all practical purposes, no bugs. I've found glitches in the IDE UI and every once in a while something doesn't seem to work quite the way the docs say it does, but no show-stoppers. And the joy of seeing a really professional-looking application emerge from my beloved OS X machine and run straight-up on Windows is hard to describe. Separating engine development and UI design/development into two companies was a recipe for problems. Across the chasm, all kinds of things can happen. I for one welcome the merger; I suspect we will now see more rapid and consistent development of both the engine and the IDE UI together. And I've seldom seen a company that listens better to its users than RR. On with the Revolution!
Re: METACARD ACQUIRED BY RUN REV!!!
plot Basically, if Rev's single users educational license is 99 per copy I can definitely have a chat with the administration. However I have to show them that deployable products will result. Since I've published a couple of programs using metaCard in law reviews I think this can be shown. /plot My Home Page with free online legal information Page perso avec liens juridiques http://www.lexnet.bravepages.com/ind.htm _ FindLaw - Free Case Law, Jobs, Library, Community http://www.FindLaw.com Get your FREE @JUSTICE.COM email! http://mail.Justice.com ___ metacard mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/metacard
RE: METACARD ACQUIRED BY RUN REV!!!
-Original Message- From: Shari [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, July 09, 2003 9:07 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: METACARD ACQUIRED BY RUN REV!!! If I am understanding this, in the future, if you took the Rev engine, but replaced the stacks (Home, Help, Metacard Menubar, etc.) with the current MC stacks, it would run? Well, there is no 'Rev' engine, it uses the MC engine just like MC does. I don't have a lot of faith in Open Source carrying a product into the future as something you can rely on for years to come. I'm not aware of an open source program that has been around for at least 10 years, is stable, and of this magnitude. Since nobody makes money from open source, there is nothing to keep it alive but heart, and that usually fades with time. FreeBSD - Been around for 10 years - much greater magnitude than MC - highly stable Apache - 8 years - most widely used webserver on the planet Sometimes new blood in a company is a positive thing. Sometimes not. I still bitch every time I use OSX, as it is so Windows-like. I miss being able to double click the title bar to collapse a window (yes I know you can get programs to do this, but before, we didn't have to). I despise having to go thru Are you sure you want to... dialogs every time I click a button. I miss being able to color folders, so that certain ones stand out and remind me of something. Well, OSX is kind of give and take in the feature department, you can't color folders, but you can color or use a picture for window backgrounds, which you couldn't in OS9; and your beloved folder coloring is coming back later this year. I can only hope this change will be a GOOD thing. It wouldn't have mattered to me if Scott added a lot of features, as long as the engine was kept up to date with the computer platforms, and of course if a major change occurred in the computer world, that it would be integrated. (Such as when computers added color, and Hypercard tacked it on but never truly integrated it as they should have.) I think it will be positive, as I believe it will allow Scott to concentrate better on core engine development, and not have to worry about marketing and day-to-day management responsibilities of a small company. Please note that I have used MC since before there was a Rev, and when Rev came out was initially impressed by its professional looking GUI, but was put off by its inability to run for more than 5 minutes without crashing, and so continued to use MC for my next project. Surely this has been fixed by now, else Scott would not be doing this. -Glen ___ metacard mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/metacard
Re: METACARD ACQUIRED BY RUN REV!!!
Shari wrote: ...I'm not sure where Rev stands on Metacard users, as far as licensing agreements and so forth. Perhaps there should be a mailout to all of us who have purchased Metacard, explaining the finer points and how they affect us. In my Blackjack game, I knew certain questions would come up, so I built a FAQ into the game to answer those questions. In effect, I answered them before they were asked. Saves a lot of scrambling when the questioners come flooding in. It seems they did that, having addressed these questions in the FAQ below the press release at: http://www.runrev.com/metacardpr.html -- Richard Gaskin Fourth World Media Corporation Developer of WebMerge 2.2: Publish any database on any site ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.FourthWorld.com Tel: 323-225-3717 AIM: FourthWorldInc ___ metacard mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/metacard
Re: METACARD ACQUIRED BY RUN REV!!!
On Wednesday, July 9, 2003, at 11:31 AM, Shari wrote: We've got MC 2.5 now, with a full license; but how does that apply to Rev 2.0? Merely downloding the latest version of Rev will still hold developers to the ten-line limit. Right? Do I hear a suggestion out there in the Rev world? Does this MC List get mereged into the Rev List? Will Scott's Wise Eye watch over us chickens when we start to PANIC? Ray G. Miller Gosh, think of those of us whose license ran out. At least you can *try* Rev for free, and make sure it really does run your projects just as MC does. I would have pay just to find out. Not a happy prospect. At least with MC, if I did a paid upgrade, I would know that I was getting what I have, only better. Now, a paid upgrade means, well getting something unproven and untried, for projects that are finally stable and productive. Scary. -- --Shareware Games for the Mac-- http://www.gypsyware.com Why not download the free running version that lasts for 30 days and see how it goes? Best regards, Mark Talluto http://www.canelasoftware.com ___ metacard mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/metacard
Re: METACARD ACQUIRED BY RUN REV!!!
Shari wrote: Gosh, think of those of us whose license ran out. At least you can *try* Rev for free, and make sure it really does run your projects just as MC does. I would have pay just to find out. Not a happy prospect. At least with MC, if I did a paid upgrade, I would know that I was getting what I have, only better. Now, a paid upgrade means, well getting something unproven and untried, for projects that are finally stable and productive. Scary. Why? A free version of both Rev and MC remains available. Just download it and give it a shot. And as I understand it, getting a Rev license also give you access to the raw MC engine, so you should be able to just keep using the MC IDE if you prefer. -- Richard Gaskin Fourth World Media Corporation Developer of WebMerge 2.2: Publish any database on any site ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.FourthWorld.com Tel: 323-225-3717 AIM: FourthWorldInc ___ metacard mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/metacard
RE: METACARD ACQUIRED BY RUN REV!!! (OT)
Hi Shari, Kinda reminds me of Apple/Windows. Apple had the better product, but Billy was the marketing genius, and so snatched up the majority of marketshare. As someone who tried awfully hard to get Macs into Fortune 500 companies (I carried a Mac Plus into TI and Compaq each day), it wasn't that M$ was a better marketing firm, but rather no one wanted to deal with a single-sourced computer product. The same issues today keep Mac from garnering marketshare. As I was growing a company in the mid 90's, based completely on Apple products, we got bit by the single source issue and I found out the hard way-- Apple couldn't deliver new Powerbooks for close to a year. I switched the whole company to Windowshad to, a Board decision. Been there ever since. Not because I like M$ (far from it), but because it makes more sense for me to have as many options as possible when building a business based on technology (not to mention it is the industry standard at this time). Small companies and individual entrepreneurs seem to enjoy the benefits of using Apple products, because 1) they can afford ($$$) it; 2) they don't *want* to switch and; 3) typically don't mind Apple defining the technology 'roadmap' for their company. I tend to think of Macs as a BMW or Lexus type product. Smooth ride, luxurious yet not 'for everyone.' I think Steve Jobs thinks of his product this way also. Just as BMW doesn't have a model for certain demographics, Apple doesn't seriously target Enterprise users. Undoubtably, ones options are narrowed once you choose the Mac platform. 3 to 4 laptop designs versus 50 to 100, one server. Now, granted, the designs are wonderful, but not varied enough. For instance, I have a svelte Centrino powered laptop with over 4 hours of battery life and a 1400x1050 display. Apple doesn't offer a product which competes in this form factor - though IBM and Dell do. I like OSX and the new faster processors. I certainly like Apple more than M$, but until they get serious about Enterprise and expanding to 3rd party hardware, I feel they are destined to stay a 'niche' market. --Chipp ___ metacard mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/metacard
Re: METACARD ACQUIRED BY RUN REV!!!
Why not download the free running version that lasts for 30 days and see how it goes? Best regards, Mark Talluto That wouldn't tell me if it would successfully run the programs I * just * released. Shari C -- --Shareware Games for the Mac-- http://www.gypsyware.com ___ metacard mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/metacard
RE: METACARD ACQUIRED BY RUN REV!!!
I've been listening to this very interesting conversation. After thinking a bit, I've decided this is a good thing...I've chronicled my journey with Xtalk in order to prove a point. Sorry so long... First my concerns... When Charlie Jackson sold Silicon Beach (and SuperCard) to Aldus, I remember talking to him and he assured me it was a good thing.. Bigger company, more resources, better product. I took the bait. Course, don't blame Charlie - he made a buttload(US term for much dinero;-). As someone said, Aldus didn't do SuperCard any favors. When Aldus sold to Allegiant Technologies, I met with Joel Staadecker (the primary investor) to discuss the product and his opportunity. I knew the team well, and believed Aldus had really dropped the ball. Joel seemed to understand the risks going in. Lots of promises later and there still wasn't the 'Windows version' which most had been waiting for. Allegiant ended up failing and SC was picked up by new owners (by this time Bill Appleton the inventor of SC had departed). SuperCard ended up floating around for awhile. If you were a SC developer, you ended up suffering with them as well. Thankfully, they are now up and running and prospering (I hope:-) So, this seems like a pretty scary moment right now. But, When Jerry Daniels (just a couple of years ago) told me about this new company RR, I was skeptical, especially seeing how young and inexperienced they were at that time. I contacted Scott Raney, learned about MC and decided to use RR (for IDE) because after all, there is always the fallback position of MC if RR craters. Later, after using RR and realizing the tremendous power the IDE + MC engine created, I became more interested in the company. Kevin and I discussed the future of the company, and I decided to invest in the company. The reason for this is, I was (and am still) *very* impressed with the business acumen of Kevin and the team. They have a great business plan and are committed to following it. (That being said, I'm offering only *my opinions* and not those of RR or MC.) It turns out, getting investors is difficult if you don't own the underlying technology --the MC engine. Investment dollars are necessary for marketing and future RD. It's a chicken and the egg thing. Now, with ownership of MC, RR can attract the kind of investment opportunites much easier. Now, Scott Raney has always struck me as a conservative businessman, not likely to take major risks. So I think Scott must also be impressed, to turn over his life's work to them. Now, I don't think RR will mind me saying they are not the richest company in the world, and I doubt they made Scott an instant multi-millionaire, so in my mind, it appears Scott didn't sellout. But, the question is, will RR sellout? Meaning, what if Oracle or Adobe or someone decides they need a next-generation cross-platform app? They could certainly afford to purchase a company like RR - then what happens. This is (to me) a bigger potential issue than the one before us now. My best thinking tells me Kevin and the team will do nothing but create a better product. Here's why I don't think an aquistion like this is likely short term. 1) Companies aren't in the mad acquistion mode in this economy -- and I doubt this will turn around very soon; 2) Scotland is far far away; 3) At this time, RR and MC aren't a big enough *dot* on the radar screen -- though I expect that will change. But, eventually, an acquisition could take place. In this event, RR and MC must be packaged as a single product. By creating an OpenSource front end, Scott has assured the future of this product, regardless of what happens. This is enough insurance for me. --Chipp ___ metacard mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/metacard
RE: METACARD ACQUIRED BY RUN REV!!!
(WARNING: This is a bit of a long rant and is probably of marginal interest unless you are a programming language junkie or just interested in the history of our business. You've been warned.) Chipp Walters wrote: But, the question is, will RR sellout? Meaning, what if Oracle or Adobe or someone decides they need a next-generation cross-platform app? They could certainly afford to purchase a company like RR - then what happens. This is (to me) a bigger potential issue than the one before us now. My best thinking tells me Kevin and the team will do nothing but create a better product. Here's why I don't think an aquistion like this is likely short term. 1) Companies aren't in the mad acquistion mode in this economy -- and I doubt this will turn around very soon; That's not how I read things right now, Chipp. Oracle is certainly in acquisition mode. Always is. They're trying a hostile takeover of PeopleSoft as we speak. There seems to me to be a LOT of consolidation and acquisition going on at the moment. 2) Scotland is far far away; Not in a networked world. 3) At this time, RR and MC aren't a big enough *dot* on the radar screen -- though I expect that will change. Yes and yes. As someone who was an insider during Oracle's acquisition of Spinnaker/Format's PLUS product back in the halcyon days of HyperCard and xTalk, let me make an observation or two here that may or may not be interesting to any significant number of people. 1. Failure to own your core technology is often fatal, either because investors won't give you money or because you bet your company on someone else's business plan. Those of us who choose to use RR (or MC for that matter) as a development platform run a HUGE risk and we shouldn't minimize that risk. If Oracle or Macromedia or Microsoft or anyone else came along and dangled enough dollars in front of the RR owners, they would be forced to sell; their shareholders wouldn't allow them to do any less. Similarly, if we choose to use not RR but, say, Python (still my favorite development language, suffering from all-but-nonexistent IDE), we still face a risk. The risk is arguably smaller because there are a lot of people who can maintain Python and keep it going. But there is always a risk that the core team will decide to retire and abandon the project. Its continuation then is tenuous. 2. When big companies acquire small ones for their technology, they most often botch it up or bury it. OracleCard, which is what Oracle turned PLUS into, was a fantastic, dynamite product. But its price tag was necessarily low, profit margins modest, and demand for it anemic. Eventually, Oracle cut it loose. I spent a lot of time developing OracleCard apps and writing about it. All that time went down the toilet except for what I learned that turns out to be useful elsewhere. 3. A product like RR gives its small band of adherents a ton of advantages, one of which (let's face it) is that not very many of our comopetitors in the software development world can truly compete with us on price adn time frame. If everyone started using RR, many of the advantages we gain from using it would fade. That's not to say we'd stop using it, of course, but as long as it's a well-kept secret, our big upside is really, really big. 4. It is not inevitable that RR will ever be acquired by BigCo. But it's not entirely unlikely, either. If and when that happens, regardless of the protestations of all the parties involved, it's time to make another key choice: bail out to something in which we can have greater long-term confidence because it's some SmallCo's Big Idea, or stay with the horse we know and hope the new owners don't put it out to pasture. (Wow, talk about mixing metaphors!) For me, if a true Open Source product with an eminently learnable and usable language and a powerful cross-platform IDE existed, I'd be using it exclusively. As far as I can tell, no such beast exists and Heaven knows I've looked. So as far as I can tell right now, RR is the best development platform for the kinds of apps I like to build, bar none. As long as that's the case, I will ride the crests and troughs of the waves with it. Developers who moan and complain when their favorite development tool shifts gears and the rules change are simply revealing how good they've had it for as long as the rules haven't changed. My bottom line: be grateful for the power of RR while keeping your eyes open for what comes next if and when BigCo takes over. If BigCo never arrives, you're still better for having explored other environments and learned from them. Besides, no *serious* programmer has only one tool in his or her kit because no one tool is a panacea.
Re: METACARD ACQUIRED BY RUN REV!!!
On 7/9/03 5:23 PM, Shari wrote: Why not download the free running version that lasts for 30 days and see how it goes? That wouldn't tell me if it would successfully run the programs I * just * released. Why not? Why wouldn't it? I think you should just try it. Download the latest free version, which will give you a choice between using the 10-line script limited version or the fully-functional 30-day trial. Select the 30-day free trial to get the equivalent of a fully licensed version with no script limits, which will run for 30 days. Then open your latest game stack in Rev and see how it does. Make some new stacks while you are in there too. The only thing I can think of that might be different is that Rev uses different default fonts and sizes. If you have any fields that use text defaults, they may look different (text will be smaller.) Other than that, I can't think of anything that would affect your stack. MC and RR use different methods behind the scenes to ease the development process. For example, a lot of the keyboard shortcuts are different (such as how to get into the script editor.) However, once the stack is written the IDE becomes immaterial and is, in fact, almost never called on to do anything. And if the stack is made into a standalone, there is no IDE any more at all; both compile identical standalones. I can guarantee that your stacks will run identically in Revolution. Really, it isn't any different than people using their own cusomized Home stacks in HyperCard. -- Jacqueline Landman Gay | [EMAIL PROTECTED] HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com ___ metacard mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/metacard
RE: METACARD ACQUIRED BY RUN REV!!!
Hi Dan! 1) Companies aren't in the mad acquistion mode in this economy -- and I doubt this will turn around very soon; That's not how I read things right now, Chipp. Oracle is certainly in acquisition mode. Always is. They're trying a hostile takeover of PeopleSoft as we speak. There seems to me to be a LOT of consolidation and acquisition going on at the moment. Yes, you are correct about Oracle. But, as you know, Oracle is purchasing Peoplesoft as a preemptive measure, not as part of a tool collecting strategy. Oracle wants Peoplesoft's customers. Also, Oracle (as you know) would probably be the last company to purchase RR based upon the disaster they had with OMO. What I'm talking about is the nonsensical 'rollup' strategy which was so popular in the dotcom boom days, where the goal was to grow a company by purchasing many other companies (business sense or not). Because of the inflated stock prices, the market cap of these companies was *HUGE* (I remember here in Austin, Vignette corp had a larger market cap than Disney!). This huge valuation enabled companies to acquire other companies, regardless of business fit, for a simple stock swap...it's how AOL got so big. This isn't happening any more. I doubt we'll ever see this type of mass acquisition again in our lifetime. 2) Scotland is far far away; Not in a networked world. Perhaps, but in the fast moving networked world of VC's and Enterprise Corporations, Scotland is probably not on the radar. Many years ago, I bought a medium sized company in Tokyo. My Board fought the acquisition the whole way -- partly based on the fact the company was outside the legal juristiction of the US. Unless RR is actively pursuing a merger strategy, they may go unnoticed for quite some time... 1. Failure to own your core technology is often fatal, either because investors won't give you money or because you bet your company on someone else's business plan. Those of us who choose to use RR (or MC for that matter) as a development platform run a HUGE risk and we shouldn't minimize that risk. If Oracle or Macromedia or Microsoft or anyone else came along and dangled enough dollars in front of the RR owners, they would be forced to sell; their shareholders wouldn't allow them to do any less. Similarly, if we choose to use not RR but, say, Python (still my favorite development language, suffering from all-but-nonexistent IDE), we still face a risk. The risk is arguably smaller because there are a lot of people who can maintain Python and keep it going. But there is always a risk that the core team will decide to retire and abandon the project. Its continuation then is tenuous. Dan, most excellent point! This is and should be a huge concern for those of us out there using RR technology as a basis for our products. And, subsequently one of the main reasons I decided to invest in RR. In fact, I encourage others to do the same, because being a shareholder does give you a level of access to the management team. Not that I'm involved in any decision making, but it's nice to know where things are heading ;-) 2. When big companies acquire small ones for their technology, they most often botch it up or bury it. OracleCard, which is what Oracle turned PLUS into, was a fantastic, dynamite product. But its price tag was necessarily low, profit margins modest, and demand for it anemic. Eventually, Oracle cut it loose. I spent a lot of time developing OracleCard apps and writing about it. All that time went down the toilet except for what I learned that turns out to be useful elsewhere. Yes, agreed. My hope is that such a deal would involve creating some support for legacy users. In fact, I would hope RR makes some sort of public statement about the future of the technology 'just in case.' Besides, no *serious* programmer has only one tool in his or her kit because no one tool is a panacea. Yep, that's the *best* insurance! ___ metacard mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/metacard
Re: METACARD ACQUIRED BY RUN REV!!!
On Wednesday, July 9, 2003, at 03:23 PM, Shari wrote: Why not download the free running version that lasts for 30 days and see how it goes? Best regards, Mark Talluto That wouldn't tell me if it would successfully run the programs I * just * released. Shari C I am not sure I follow. You should have no problems opening up your stacks in Rev. The only problem is that with the totally free version, you will not be able to edit your scripts beyond the line limit. But, they have a full version that will run for 30 days that you can edit your stacks with. Compile your recent work on Rev to your platforms of choice and see how it goes. I have just tried this on a couple of my projects and it is going well. No compatibility problems yet. Best regards, Mark Talluto http://www.canelasoftware.com ___ metacard mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/metacard
METACARD ACQUIRED BY RUN REV!!!
Just went over to the RunRev site and saw this headline: Runtime Aquires MetaCard Technology You can read all about it here: http://www.runrev.com/metacardpr.html How does everyone feel about this? I can see good and not-so-good things (depending on how RunRev acts on this)... Your thoughts? Ken Ray Sons of Thunder Software Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web Site: http://www.sonsothunder.com/ ___ metacard mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/metacard
Re: METACARD ACQUIRED BY RUN REV!!!
On Tuesday, July 8, 2003, at 03:15 PM, Ken Ray wrote: Just went over to the RunRev site and saw this headline: Runtime Aquires MetaCard Technology You can read all about it here: http://www.runrev.com/metacardpr.html How does everyone feel about this? I can see good and not-so-good things (depending on how RunRev acts on this)... Your thoughts? The writing was on the wall that this was going to happen eventually. I would say congratulations are in order for both Scott and Kevin's respective teams. I look forward to embracing the future of this technology at its new home. Best regards, Mark Talluto http://www.canelasoftware.com ___ metacard mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/metacard
Re: METACARD ACQUIRED BY RUN REV!!!
Just went over to the RunRev site and saw this headline: Runtime Aquires MetaCard Technology You can read all about it here: http://www.runrev.com/metacardpr.html How does everyone feel about this? I can see good and not-so-good things (depending on how RunRev acts on this)... Your thoughts? Ken Ray Sons of Thunder Software I do not feel good about this. I tried Rev and MC before choosing MC. Rev was buggy as the dickens, and it quit so often, that I had to copy a script to a text file *every single time I made a change to the script* to prevent losing work. I finally decided it just wasn't worth it, and MC was stable, so I chose MC. I migrated to MC from Hypercard about a year and a half ago, knowing that Scott had been supporting this product and company for 10 years. I felt confident I could rely on the future of Metacard. This change scares me. It's hard enough to put out a program that is bug-free, from your own code. Trouble with the development environment is a big-bad. Perhaps they've worked the bugs out since I tried it. I do not know. But I know this could have a very bad impact on the future of my company. I do not want more change in the compiler, unless it is to add features (features, not fluff, not ease of use). I do not want Metacard to suddenly have all the RunRev addons that made it buggy when I tried it. I cannot afford that. My company is finally starting to move up in the world. It's been a lot of work and a lot of sacrifice. What happens to Metacard, impacts those who rely on it for their bread and butter. I love xTalk languages. And was hoping/expecting that Scott/Metacard would be around a long time so that I could use it as my foundation. This change scares the dickens out of me. Shari C Gypsy King Software -- --Shareware Games for the Mac-- http://www.gypsyware.com ___ metacard mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/metacard
RE: METACARD ACQUIRED BY RUN REV!!!
Hi Shari This change scares the dickens out of me. If you hung on to HyperCard until only a year and a half ago then change must be difficult for you. However, you will find that Rev 2.0.1 is quite stable and the transition is a far smaller jump than the HC to MC one. I imagine that if Raney has been thinking about this for a while then he would not have considered it if he didn't think Rev was ready. I suggest that you get Rev 2.0.1 and start getting used to the new IDE. If you find bugs then report them so that when you need to finally transfer all your apps to the new IDE the bugs would have been fixed. Cheers Monte Shari C Gypsy King Software -- --Shareware Games for the Mac-- http://www.gypsyware.com ___ metacard mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/metacard ___ metacard mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/metacard
Re: METACARD ACQUIRED BY RUN REV!!!
Recently, Ken Ray wrote: How does everyone feel about this? I can see good and not-so-good things (depending on how RunRev acts on this)... From my standpoint, the biggest question I have is, how will Scott Raney and MC Corp. continue to be involved? Without knowing the details of the deal, it's hard to really know how to respond. But regardless of how things fall out, I would like to express my sincere appreciation for everything Scott and his group have done over the years to develop and maintain MC. Most of us have at one time or another been the fortunate recipients of Scott's near-immediate assistance in problem solving and/or troubleshooting. MC always appeared to be grounded in realistic development expectations, without a lot of the overzealous hype surrounding so many commercial products. (OK, MC could have used a little hype, but this is another thread for another day...) In any event, it would be nice to see the legacy of thorough/efficient development continue with the RunRev folks. Hopefully this will occur with the typical high standards established by Raney and Co. Regards, Scott Rossi Creative Director Tactile Media, Multimedia Design Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web: www.tactilemedia.com ___ metacard mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/metacard
RE: METACARD ACQUIRED BY RUN REV!!!
If you hung on to HyperCard until only a year and a half ago then change must be difficult for you. However, you will find that Rev 2.0.1 is quite stable and the transition is a far smaller jump than the HC to MC one. I imagine that if Raney has been thinking about this for a while then he would not have considered it if he didn't think Rev was ready. I suggest that you get Rev 2.0.1 and start getting used to the new IDE. If you find bugs then report them so that when you need to finally transfer all your apps to the new IDE the bugs would have been fixed. Cheers Monte Monte, I haven't even transferred all of my apps to the OLD ide! I've transfered two from HC to MC. And it took so long, I will not do the others. I'm still working the kinks out of the two. Do that again? No. The goal is to get something moved and stable, so that you can send it out into the world, and then start adding features to it and release upgrades. Not to keep moving and stabilizing from here to there to wherever. I'm at a point where my two primary programs can start being upgraded, rather than tech supported. And focus is on the NEW program, and the planned updates to the two primary programs. It would be a major setback to pour more resources into the programs I just got done pouring the last year into, because the compiler changed. I have a very specific roadmap to follow. To veer off of it again, would be disastrous. Stability is key. Bugs are not affordable. One bug costs 30 days of productivity. To fix, and test, and then have others test, and then release, and then remarket. There is no such thing as a small change. All programmers know this. It is the fundamental rule of programming. No matter how small you believe the change is, it will likely impact something else, and the chance exists that something will break. Switch to a new IDE and lose another year? No. I may end up stuck at MC 2.4.3 as I stayed stuck at HC 2.4.1. I need to move forward, not go back into 6 months of beta testing. I did not intend to upgrade to another paid-for version of MC until I got the next program out the door and producing income, which will likely be next summer. Changing means money goes out. My money is already spent for the next year, on moving from Mac Classic to Mac OSX, having to replace all the apps so that I do not need Classic. Metacard was an expenditure already completed. I wish I saw good things here. I wish I could believe. If I embrace Rev, I see losing a year's productivity, just when I finally got where I really want to be. And then having additional tech support for the next god knows how long. I've finally figured out most of the kinks in MC, and it does have kinks that needed to be worked around. I've finally worked around 99% of the anomalies, and my tech support issues are almost null, which is where they need to be. Worms are best left in the can. Shari C -- --Shareware Games for the Mac-- http://www.gypsyware.com ___ metacard mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/metacard
Re: METACARD ACQUIRED BY RUN REV!!!
Shari wrote: What happens to Metacard, impacts those who rely on it for their bread and butter. I love xTalk languages. And was hoping/expecting that Scott/Metacard would be around a long time so that I could use it as my foundation. There's a hint about the MC side of things in this quote from Dr. Raney: The future of multi-platform software development is Runtime Revolution, and I'm pleased to be joining the development team that will take it there. That gives the impression he's still quite involved, and it's clear he has a strong preference for a lean IDE. Perhaps he'll chime in with his plans for the IDE soon. Personally, I've been so impressed with Tuviah's excellent work with Scott on the engine over the last year that at this time I have a good feeling about this: it seems reasonable to expect that unified coordination of development resources will yield more effecient expansion of the engine going forward. One of the good things about Rev is that they eat their own dog food, as Jobs used to say. With the Rev IDE being based on the MC engine and pushing it to its limits, it would seem the stuff they need should enable the stuff we need too. I've already seen some of this effect with regard to the new group properties in MC 2.5, in which their needs mirrored mine but gave the request a much stronger weight. With Scott and Tuviah working in a more integrated way with the rest of the team, it would seem they're in a position to add things like that even faster. And as much as I like MC's lean operation I don't think Scott has any illusions about marketing to the masses. He's been profitably marketing to his core audience which works for him, but as developers we benefit from the vendor who can generate the greatest interest among the general public. Rev has been very effective in getting the word out, and most professional xTalk developers I know have seen an increase in new business in proportion to RunRev's efforts over the last year, even as my friends using more commodity languages like VB, Java, and C++ are losing work to the economy and overseas brokerages (Microsoft moved a few hundred more of their jobs to India just last week). So the combination of Rev's IDE pushing the engine harder for features we can benefit from, and their demonstrated effectiveness in marketing, the only thing not covered in the FAQ is what will happen to the MC IDE -- Richard Gaskin Fourth World Media Corporation Developer of WebMerge 2.2: Publish any database on any site ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.FourthWorld.com Tel: 323-225-3717 AIM: FourthWorldInc ___ metacard mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/metacard
Re: METACARD ACQUIRED BY RUN REV!!!
On 7/8/03 8:50 PM, Shari wrote: I wish I saw good things here. I wish I could believe. If I embrace Rev, I see losing a year's productivity, just when I finally got where I really want to be. Nah, don't worry. You won't lose a thing; not any time, not any money. I routinely work on the same stack, at the same time, in both MC and Revolution. (It's pretty neat you can do that, actually.) Remember, the engine is exactly the same. You don't *have* to learn the IDE, though you'll probably want to pick up some of it just for ease of use eventually. The engine behavior will be identical to what you already know. Your stack will run in Rev exactly as it does now in MC, with *zero* changes. If you don't want to use the IDE, use the message box. I do that all the time when I don't want to drill down in Rev's IDE. Rev 2.0 is far more stable than the older version you tried. I have only had it crash once on me, and when I duplicated the behavior in MC, that crashed too -- so it was the engine, not the IDE. Also, the announcement states that a group of volunteers may be arranged to maintain MC's current IDE -- so you can use that if you want. Nothing to worry about. And I think with Scott having more time to work on the engine, we'll see new features and options at an increased rate. I'm going to miss Scott though. I have never met anyone more responsive and knowledgeable in the software field. In that respect, I feel like I'm losing an arm. -- Jacqueline Landman Gay | [EMAIL PROTECTED] HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com ___ metacard mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/metacard
Re: METACARD ACQUIRED BY RUN REV!!!
On 7/8/03 9:18 PM, Richard Gaskin wrote: So the combination of Rev's IDE pushing the engine harder for features we can benefit from, and their demonstrated effectiveness in marketing, the only thing not covered in the FAQ is what will happen to the MC IDE Nope, that's in there too: However, for those existing MetaCard customers that want to continue to use the MetaCard tools, we will arrange an outside group of volunteer developers to maintain the existing MetaCard user interface so that they may do so. -- Jacqueline Landman Gay | [EMAIL PROTECTED] HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com ___ metacard mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/metacard
RE: METACARD ACQUIRED BY RUN REV!!!
So the combination of Rev's IDE pushing the engine harder for features we can benefit from, and their demonstrated effectiveness in marketing, the only thing not covered in the FAQ is what will happen to the MC IDE Isn't there a bit saying the MC IDE will be maintained by a group of volunteers for people that don't want to change? Regards Monte ___ metacard mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/metacard
RE: METACARD ACQUIRED BY RUN REV!!!
I did not intend to upgrade to another paid-for version of MC until I got the next program out the door and producing income, which will likely be next summer. Changing means money goes out. My money is already spent for the next year, on moving from Mac Classic to Mac OSX, having to replace all the apps so that I do not need Classic. Metacard was an expenditure already completed. Steady now... There's been no mention of forced upgrade. If you don't want to don't. Upgrade when you are ready or when you need a new engine feature. Regards Monte ___ metacard mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/metacard
Re: METACARD ACQUIRED BY RUN REV!!!
On Tue, 8 Jul 2003 Shari [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What happens to Metacard, impacts those who rely on it for their bread and butter. I love xTalk languages. And was hoping/expecting that Scott/Metacard would be around a long time so that I could use it as my foundation. If this is all you worry about, you can rest easy. I'll continue to be a part of the engine development team for the foreseeable future, and though my control over the direction of the technology and management will be greatly diminished, I have complete confidence in the team at Runtime Revolution. They're just better managers and marketers than I ever was ;-) As for the MetaCard development environment, our contract with Runtime Revolution specifically states that the MC UI is now Open Source and that although Runtime Revolution will not continue development of it or provide tech support for it, they also cannot kill it off or even deliberately change the engine technology to prevent the MC UI from continuing to work. So its survival now depends on all of you. Although I won't be directly involved in the development of the MC UI or documentation package anymore, I'd be happy to serve as Benevolent Dictator for awhile until a proper support group is up and running smoothly. The first order of business will be to set up a mailing list so that we can start discussions of how that group should be organized and later, what changes to the UI everyone wants (and are willing to contribute to!). That should help keep this list focused on *using* the UI, with some discussions of the engine technology it shares with the new standard development environment, Revolution. OK, so who wants to host that mailing list? Regards, Scott PS: it's at times like this that I miss Grant Schampel ([EMAIL PROTECTED]). He always loved a good brouhaha, and always had something insightful to say about the back-room dealings that make them possible... Shari C Gypsy King Software -- --Shareware Games for the Mac-- http://www.gypsyware.com Scott Raney [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.metacard.com MetaCard: You know, there's an easier way to do that... ___ metacard mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/metacard
Re: METACARD ACQUIRED BY RUN REV!!!
I'm glad you're still on board, Scott- and applaud your willingness to combine efforts with RunRev in expanding the Metacard/Rev community. I'm not up for hosting a list, but count me in as a helper for the Metacard GUI: I'd love to see it kept up-to-date with the lastest versions of Rev without losing it's original simplicity. PS: it's at times like this that I miss Grant Schampel ([EMAIL PROTECTED]). He always loved a good brouhaha, and always had something insightful to say about the back-room dealings that make them possible... Indeed! Thanks for the fond memory, I haven't heard that name passed around here in some time. -- Brian Yennie Chief Technology Officer QLD Learning, LLC www.QLDLearning.com PH: (904)-997-0212 EMAIL: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ---
Re: METACARD ACQUIRED BY RUN REV!!!
Scott Raney wrote: The first order of business will be to set up a mailing list so that we can start discussions of how that group should be organized and later, what changes to the UI everyone wants (and are willing to contribute to!). That should help keep this list focused on *using* the UI, with some discussions of the engine technology it shares with the new standard development environment, Revolution. OK, so who wants to host that mailing list? If Yahoo Groups is OK I could set one up in a few minutes. -- Richard Gaskin Fourth World Media Corporation Developer of WebMerge 2.2: Publish any database on any site ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.FourthWorld.com Tel: 323-225-3717 AIM: FourthWorldInc ___ metacard mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/metacard
Re: METACARD ACQUIRED BY RUN REV!!!
On Tuesday, July 8, 2003, at 06:50 PM, Shari wrote: Monte, I haven't even transferred all of my apps to the OLD ide! I've transfered two from HC to MC. And it took so long, I will not do the others. I'm still working the kinks out of the two. Do that again? No. The goal is to get something moved and stable, so that you can send it out into the world, and then start adding features to it and release upgrades. Not to keep moving and stabilizing from here to there to wherever. I'm at a point where my two primary programs can start being upgraded, rather than tech supported. And focus is on the NEW program, and the planned updates to the two primary programs. It would be a major setback to pour more resources into the programs I just got done pouring the last year into, because the compiler changed. I have a very specific roadmap to follow. To veer off of it again, would be disastrous. Stability is key. Bugs are not affordable. One bug costs 30 days of productivity. To fix, and test, and then have others test, and then release, and then remarket. There is no such thing as a small change. All programmers know this. It is the fundamental rule of programming. No matter how small you believe the change is, it will likely impact something else, and the chance exists that something will break. Switch to a new IDE and lose another year? No. I may end up stuck at MC 2.4.3 as I stayed stuck at HC 2.4.1. I need to move forward, not go back into 6 months of beta testing. I did not intend to upgrade to another paid-for version of MC until I got the next program out the door and producing income, which will likely be next summer. Changing means money goes out. My money is already spent for the next year, on moving from Mac Classic to Mac OSX, having to replace all the apps so that I do not need Classic. Metacard was an expenditure already completed. I wish I saw good things here. I wish I could believe. If I embrace Rev, I see losing a year's productivity, just when I finally got where I really want to be. And then having additional tech support for the next god knows how long. I've finally figured out most of the kinks in MC, and it does have kinks that needed to be worked around. I've finally worked around 99% of the anomalies, and my tech support issues are almost null, which is where they need to be. Worms are best left in the can. Shari C Shari, I completely understand your concerns. What may help is the fact that both IDEs run off the same engine. Your code will open right up in the Rev IDE without change. When you compile your programs, they will use version 2.5 (at this point) of Rev. Since you are not planning on upgrading your MC license for another year, I bet Rev will have progressed quite a bit by then. Plus, if what you have is working for you and you do not need the new features, you could stay with what you have for some time. I too have not switched yet, but I know the time for me will be sooner than later. We can all hold hands and jump together. :) Best regards, Mark Talluto http://www.canelasoftware.com ___ metacard mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/metacard
