Re: [Biofuel] Robertson et al VS. followers

[robert luis rabello]

Hakan Falk wrote:

> Excuse an ignorant foreigner, but what is NPR? Is it an internationally
> accepted shortening, or is it your secret?

NPR stands for "National Public Radio".  It's a news service 
partially funded by the government through the non profit "Corporation 
for Public Broadcasting", by listeners and by for profit corporations. 
  It's where I get my news.

robert luis rabello
"The Edge of Justice"
Adventure for Your Mind
http://www.newadventure.ca

Ranger Supercharger Project Page
http://www.members.shaw.ca/rabello/



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Re: [Biofuel] Robertson et al VS. followers

[Hakan Falk]

Clif,

Do not worry, Guantanamo is full of people who only suggested a
destruction of US, but never did something about it. You have a lot
of people who supports you and think the same. Every day you will
find it in US news media, not to mention US legislation and US
government.

At 21:48 26/08/2005, you wrote:
>Wow and to think that I was going to use this list only to figure out
>how to titrate WVO correctly.
>At the risk at attracting perhaps merited flames ..
>Where is the outrage at the coverage of the war in Iraq ?

Every day in US media, Pentagon news briefing and White House
news briefing. It is much more attention to the official spin, than
the negative coverage about the war in Iraq. Is it not that you would
prefer it censored and only the "good news" to be reported.

>Have you heard one positive story on NPR or anywhere else ?

Excuse an ignorant foreigner, but what is NPR? Is it an internationally
accepted shortening, or is it your secret?

>Where is the outrage at the fine work Michael Moore and numerous others
>are doing at peddling lies ?

I read a lot of outrage towards Michael Moore, why do you not read
it? Is it not that you would prefer it censored and only the "bad news"
to be reported.

>Where is the outrage when fine mothers, sisters, sons and fathers who
>are proud of the service their sons and daughters are offering in the
>Armed Services are not given any voice and one heartbroken mother is
>given weeks of press coverage because she is against the war in Irag ?

Why is there not a voice for the hundreds of thousands of fine Iraqis, who
died by the hands of Americans and only committed the crime to be born
in Iraq. It is far more press coverage for the couple of thousand Americans
who died, that for the couple of hundreds of thousands Iraqis who died. If
the press coverage is proportional, it would be 0.1% for the Americans
and 99.9% for the Iraqis. Much of the press coverage that I see, suggest
that the Americans have a divine right to kill Iraqis.

>And finally a point that may need some attention by the "Men of God"
>judicatory committee on this list :

What God? You have to be specific, because it is many of them and
it is difficult to know which one you mean. This list is very international
and open minded, so if it is a mention committee, there must be several
of them, each one representing a subset of members.

>Where is the outrage at allowing Muslim clerics right here in America to
>daily call for the UTTER destruction of not only Americans who believe
>that Allah may not be the way, but also any other infidels?

As it is also many who call for the destruction of Muslims. But Chaves is
is a good Catholic, so this is an exception from the normal in US. What
has this to do with Chaves, who is a good catholic.


>All I'm saying is that I for one  feel compelled to be very conscious of
>my own "blind spots" as I am chief among those who can stand only by
>grace .


Oooops!


>Just a thought to further take this list into a land far away from
>renewable energy sources.

Are you calling for more American participation?


>In need of clarity,

Of what???

>Clif
>
>TarynToo wrote:
>
> >Amen Robert!
> >
> >While not a christian, I've read many of the major scriptures of the
> >world. While reading the Robertson thread, I was thinking how badly we
> >needed to hear the "Who would Jesus hate? Who would Jesus kill?"
> >message.
> >
> >Your message is so on target. The most important teaching we receive,
> >not just from Jesus, but from almost all prophets is "Deeds are greater
> >than words. Love the least, as you love the great. Power demands
> >responsibility." If we are to follow their teachings, we must not tend
> >the church, we must tend our hearts and minds, and the whole world.
> >
> >All it takes to distinguish the truly good from the hypocrite, is to
> >attend to their actions more than their words. How sad that so many of
> >us are deceived by the transparent and self-serving lies of our
> >political, spiritual, and commercial masters.
> >
> >We are slaves, the truth will set us free.
> >Thank you, Taryn
> >ornae.com
> >
> >
> >On Aug 26, 2005, at 11:13 AM, robert luis rabello wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >>BT wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>>Greetings fellow revolutionary alchemists!
> >>>
> >>>The question I have is, How do we help separate the good-hearted
> >>>followers from their devious leaders?
> >>>
> >>>
> >>  I've found the best thing to do is go back to the scriptures from
> >>whence Christians are supposed to derive standards for their behavior.
> >>  This is especially true when the argument of "you shouldn't judge
> >>anyone" comes to fore.  Now, Jesus himself said this, in the second
> >>part of Luke 12: 48:
> >>
> >>  "From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and
> >>from one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked."
> >>
> >>  Leaders, who ought to know better, are far more accountable than the
> >>average person.  Wh

Re: [Biofuel] Robertson et al VS. followers

[Clif Caldwell]

Keith Addison wrote:

>My my. And I was just thinking you might be a man who'd do a bit of 
>checking before he shot his foot off. Again. I do rather wonder what 
>you mean when you say "right here in America" when actually where you 
>are right now is right here on the global Internet, on a global 
>discussion group with a global membership that includes many Muslims 
>living in Muslim countries, who are probably more aware than you are 
>of calls from your country - calls and deeds done - to kill them and 
>their leaders. But that doesn't count, does it? It does here. If you 
>want outrage over the coverage of the war in Iraq you'll find it 
>aplenty, but you won't like it - it's outrage at the unquestioning, 
>knee-jerk coverage your so-called "liberal" press (ROFL!!!) gave to 
>the pack of blatant lies that led unfailingly to everything and 
>everybody getting torn to pieces in Iraq (as most of us predicted at 
>the time), including your precious military, and every single promise 
>broken.
>  
>
Guilty as accused concerning not backing up my statements. I have 
remedied this in another post. And guilty as accused as writing from a 
decidingly US perspective. I have traveled extensively including 
performing tsunami relief (as a civilian paying my own way) in Banda 
Aceh, Indonesia (90+ % Isalmic). Please understand that I have cried 
with, struggled with and even prayed with Muslims and Christians all 
over the world.  (I have carried out humanitarian efforts in Central and 
South America and Jordan also.) Unfortunately I was not as sensitive as 
I should have been to all the readers of this list.

I am a former officer in the USAF so perhaps I do have a fondness for 
the fine, exceedingly capable and patriotic  men and women serving to  
protect and defend a country I personally feel is a  pretty good place 
to live. Perhaps I am living under some delusions and if that is the 
case then I'm sure someone will try to correct the errors of my ways.

Thanks for the input. I will give it some thought.

Just a guy sorting things out,
Clif

>  
>
>>Wow and to think that I was going to use this list only to figure out
>>how to titrate WVO correctly.
>>At the risk at attracting perhaps merited flames ..
>>Where is the outrage at the coverage of the war in Iraq ?
>>Have you heard one positive story on NPR or anywhere else ?
>>Where is the outrage at the fine work Michael Moore and numerous others
>>are doing at peddling lies ?
>>Where is the outrage when fine mothers, sisters, sons and fathers who
>>are proud of the service their sons and daughters are offering in the
>>Armed Services are not given any voice and one heartbroken mother is
>>given weeks of press coverage because she is against the war in Irag ?
>>And finally a point that may need some attention by the "Men of God"
>>judicatory committee on this list :
>>
>>
>
>What exactly do you mean by that?
>
>  
>
>>Where is the outrage at allowing Muslim clerics right here in America to
>>daily call for the UTTER destruction of not only Americans who believe
>>that Allah may not be the way, but also any other infidels?
>>
>>All I'm saying is that I for one  feel compelled to be very conscious of
>>my own "blind spots" as I am chief among those who can stand only by
>>grace .
>>
>>Just a thought to further take this list into a land far away from
>>renewable energy sources.
>>
>>
>
>It is not far away from renewable energy sources. I think you should 
>read this carefully, since it looks as if you haven't already done so:
>
>http://sustainablelists.org/pipermail/biofuel_sustainablelists.org/200 
>5-May/07.html
>Or:
>http://snipurl.com/gi45
>
>Best wishes
>
>Keith
>
>
>  
>
>>In need of clarity,
>>Clif
>>
>>TarynToo wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>>Amen Robert!
>>>
>>>While not a christian, I've read many of the major scriptures of the
>>>world. While reading the Robertson thread, I was thinking how badly we
>>>needed to hear the "Who would Jesus hate? Who would Jesus kill?"
>>>message.
>>>
>>>Your message is so on target. The most important teaching we receive,
>>>not just from Jesus, but from almost all prophets is "Deeds are greater
>>>than words. Love the least, as you love the great. Power demands
>>>responsibility." If we are to follow their teachings, we must not tend
>>>the church, we must tend our hearts and minds, and the whole world.
>>>
>>>All it takes to distinguish the truly good from the hypocrite, is to
>>>attend to their actions more than their words. How sad that so many of
>>>us are deceived by the transparent and self-serving lies of our
>>>political, spiritual, and commercial masters.
>>>
>>>We are slaves, the truth will set us free.
>>>Thank you, Taryn
>>>ornae.com
>>>
>>>
>>>On Aug 26, 2005, at 11:13 AM, robert luis rabello wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>  
>>>
BT wrote:




>Greetings fellow revolutionary alchemists!
>
>The question I have is, How do we help separate the good-hearted
>fo

Re: [Biofuel] Robertson et al VS. followers

[Clif Caldwell]

Fred Finch wrote:

>Clif, 
>
>No flames from me just...
>
>
>
>  
>
>>Where is the outrage at the coverage of the war in Iraq ?
>>
>>
>
>Coverage is adequate and the news is not very good.
>  
>
http://chrenkoff.blogspot.com/2005/07/good-news-from-iraq-part-31.html
http://unix.dfn.org/good_news_iraq.shtml
http://www.usnews.com/usnews/opinion/baroneweb/mb_030726.htm
http://www.command-post.org/2_archives/019738.html
http://tampatrib.com/opinion/MGBQKJP0MCE.html
(A very thoughtful look at the reasons behind the current coverage.)

>  
>
>>Have you heard one positive story on NPR or anywhere else ?
>>
>>
>
>When there is no good news what is the use of making a fake report?
>  
>
Please see above.

>  
>
>>Where is the outrage at the fine work Michael Moore and numerous others
>>are doing at peddling lies ?
>>
>>
>
>Lies or opinions?  It seems that Pat roberston can have them but not
>Michael Moore?  Cite Links to the lies and we'll talk...
>  
>
http://www.bowlingfortruth.com/
http://msnbc.msn.com/id/5335853/site/newsweek/
http://www.factcheck.org/article131.html
http://slate.msn.com/id/2102723/

>  
>
>>Where is the outrage when fine mothers, sisters, sons and fathers who
>>are proud of the service their sons and daughters are offering in the
>>Armed Services are not given any voice and one heartbroken mother is
>>given weeks of press coverage because she is against the war in Irag ?
>>
>>
>
>It seems that President Bush and Faux Nooze  is giving them voice, but
>who is listening?
>  
>
Good point. But then again public opinion is usually shaped by what they 
are told in the most strident tone and by the most numerous and loudest 
voices.

>  
>
>>And finally a point that may need some attention by the "Men of God"
>>judicatory committee on this list :
>>Where is the outrage at allowing Muslim clerics right here in America to
>>daily call for the UTTER destruction of not only Americans who believe
>>that Allah may not be the way, but also any other infidels?
>>
>>
>
>Again, cite a link and we'll talk.  
>
>For every link you bring, I will find 10 Muslim cleric statements
>denouncing those statements and the war and the 9/11 attacks.
>  
>
http://www.leaderu.com/focus/islamandjihad.html
(I cannot speak or write as eloquently as this summary.)

>  
>
>>All I'm saying is that I for one  feel compelled to be very conscious of
>>my own "blind spots" as I am chief among those who can stand only by
>>grace .
>>
>>
>
>Yet you make it point to attempt to point out the "blind spots" of others.  
>
>A suggestion perhaps, work on your own "blind spots."  
>
>IMO, Peace is not a blind spot.  
>
>fred
>  
>
I agree. I was too harsh in my statements. I apologize for the tone of 
them. Please forgive me. It seems the log in my eye was blinding me and 
needs some attention before I work on the perceived speck in others.
I too feel peace is a very good thing however perhaps we should be 
considering "what kind of peace" we are talking about.

A fellow seeker of the truth,
Clif

>
>  
>
>>Just a thought to further take this list into a land far away from
>>renewable energy sources.
>>
>>In need of clarity,
>>Clif
>>
>>TarynToo wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>>Amen Robert!
>>>
>>>While not a christian, I've read many of the major scriptures of the
>>>world. While reading the Robertson thread, I was thinking how badly we
>>>needed to hear the "Who would Jesus hate? Who would Jesus kill?"
>>>message.
>>>
>>>Your message is so on target. The most important teaching we receive,
>>>not just from Jesus, but from almost all prophets is "Deeds are greater
>>>than words. Love the least, as you love the great. Power demands
>>>responsibility." If we are to follow their teachings, we must not tend
>>>the church, we must tend our hearts and minds, and the whole world.
>>>
>>>All it takes to distinguish the truly good from the hypocrite, is to
>>>attend to their actions more than their words. How sad that so many of
>>>us are deceived by the transparent and self-serving lies of our
>>>political, spiritual, and commercial masters.
>>>
>>>We are slaves, the truth will set us free.
>>>Thank you, Taryn
>>>ornae.com
>>>
>>>
>>>On Aug 26, 2005, at 11:13 AM, robert luis rabello wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>  
>>>
BT wrote:




>Greetings fellow revolutionary alchemists!
>
>The question I have is, How do we help separate the good-hearted
>followers from their devious leaders?
>
>
>  
>
 I've found the best thing to do is go back to the scriptures from
whence Christians are supposed to derive standards for their behavior.
 This is especially true when the argument of "you shouldn't judge
anyone" comes to fore.  Now, Jesus himself said this, in the second
part of Luke 12: 48:

 "From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and


from one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked."

[Biofuel] Question

[Carlos David Monsalve]

HI, 
I want to know if there is a better way to recover the metanol from the Glicerine than the two show on the web page ( large quantities).
 
Thank you
Carlos Monsalve
MSN Amor Busca tu ½ naranja 


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Re: [Biofuel] Pat Robertson's business affiliation with Hugo Chavez

[TarynToo]

It's impossible to say "Communism would've collapsed even w/o our 
"help"", since every state that has attempted communism, with few 
exceptions, has been destroyed by the U.S.A. and its allies using some 
combination of economic warfare, bribery and  corruption, economic and 
military support of 'counter-revolutionaries', and support of handy 
fascist states.

The exceptions?
China, which was so isolationist and so poor that it wasn't seen as any 
great threat, and whose own leaders were always so corrupt that it was 
only communist in name.
Israel, whose experiments with small scale communes were instrumental 
in the technological, social, and economic success of the country.
Lots of western and northern european countries have either dabbled  in 
communism (e.g. Italy), or socialism, (e.g. Sweden) with much success, 
and without the grotesque economic inequalities seen here in the USA. 


And of course our most repugnant attack on communism and socialism 
continues within our own borders, with the state sanctioned murders and 
beatings of union organizers, persecution and prosecution of accused 
communists, the unending pro-business, anti-communist propaganda, 
McCarthy's witch hunts. (now re-invented as the Patriot acts), and the 
almost complete sellout of media and government to commercial 
interests.

I'm sure that many will take exception to everything I've said. Feel 
free to use facts to support your position.

Oh... Mike, as I re-read this before posting, it seemed like I might be 
attacking you. Actually I agree with everything you said, except 
(maybe) that communism always fails.

Thanks, Taryn
ornae.com

On Aug 26, 2005, at 7:08 PM, Mike Weaver wrote:

> Ah,  I think Communism would've collapsed even w/o our "help" - it blew
> up in places even where we weren't meddling.
> My own thoughts are realistic Capitalism - a reasonably regulated free
> market economy and a pragmatic federal government.
> Think, oh, Finland.  I do think the Constitution allows for national
> health insurance: Quote:
>
> We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect
> Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility
> , provide for the
> common defence , promote
> the general Welfare
> , and secure the
> Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity
> , do ordain
>  and establish this
> Constitution for the United States of America.
>
> Falls under general Welfare
>
> Andy Karpay wrote:
>
>> ...
>> It was stated here earlier, but the US is responsible for Allende's
>> death in Chile (1973?), Guevara's death, death in Honduras 
>> (Iran-Contra
>> scheme where arms were sold to Iran, our "ally" of the day, and the
>> proceeds sent to the death squads in Honduras), on and on.
>> It is stated many times in this country that "communism has failed"
>> therefore it is no good.  The truth is that much of communism's 
>> failure,
>> in this hemisphere particularly, is due to our country's intervention 
>> to
>> ensure the demise of democratically elected leaders (you can, and we 
>> do
>> have democratic communism).  The US's fear is that if the country is
>> communist, then we cannot exploit the labor and resources for our own
>> gain, and the gain of the wealthy.  Remember, without poverty there is
>> no wealth.
>>
>> AK
>>
>> ...


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[Biofuel] Another use for glycerine

[capt3d]

the subject of glycerine by-product, and what to do with it, seems to come up 
quite frequently so i thought i'd pass on this bit of news.

cheers,

-chris

=

From: Steve Spence <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: biodiesel -> glycerin -> propylene glycol

Renewable Alternatives, has developed a process for converting glycerin, 
a byproduct of the biodiesel production process, into propylene glycol. 
Propylene glycol can be used as nontoxic antifreeze for automobiles.

Suppes said this technology can reduce the cost of biodiesel production 
by as much as $0.40 per gallon of biodiesel. The market for propylene 
glycol already is established, with a billion pounds produced a year.

Read more at http://www.green-trust.org

http://www.green-trust.org/2005/08/glycerin-biodiesel-byproduct-makes.html

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Re: [Biofuel] New Biodegradable Polymers

[Ray J]

Just Disposed of how?? they make it sound like its just dumped... I 
thought glycerol and glycerin was a valuable commodity?



>"New biodegradable polymers may provide the biodiesel industry
> with a new use for glycerol, which is now disposed of after the
> biodiesel is made."


 Glycerol (which shows that it is an alcohol), while the impure commercial 
product is called Glycerin


Ray


>>Agricultural Research Service, USDA
>>Sharon Durham, (301) 504-1611, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>August 24, 2005
>>--View this report online, plus any included photos or other images,
>>at www.ars.usda.gov/is/pr
>>___
>>
>>A biodiesel fuel byproduct called glycerol and an agricultural
>>commodity called citric acid can be chemically combined to produce
>>biodegradable polymers that could be used in produce packaging and
>>other products, according to Agricultural Research Service scientists.
>>
>>Justin Barone, a chemist at the ARS Environmental Quality Laboratory
>>in Beltsville, Md., made the discovery while studying processes for
>>improving the effectiveness of insecticides that contain citric acid
>>as an active ingredient. Citric acid washes away very quickly in the
>>environment, limiting its effectiveness.
>>
>>Barone found that molecules containing hydrogen and oxygen--such as
>>glycerol, sorbitol or polyethylene glycol--reacted with citric acid
>>to produce polymers with citric acid groups in them. The materials
>>formed are biodegradable polyesters. Further study showed that the
>>viscosity of the material can range from the consistency of paint to
>>a slow-to-dissolve, glasslike product, depending on how the chemical
>>reaction takes place.
>>
>>The new biodegradable polymers may provide the biodiesel industry
>>with a new use for glycerol, which is now disposed of after the
>>biodiesel is made. In addition, citric acid is used in the food
>>industry as a retardant to browning in cut fruits and vegetables. The
>>new citric acid-based polyesters may prove useful as a packaging
>>material. Studies are under way to determine whether the new polymers
>>would work as well as pure citric acid in these applications.
>>
>>ARS is the U.S. Department of Agriculture's chief scientific research
>>
>>
>agency.
>  
>
>>___
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>>
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>>
>>Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000
>>
>>
>messages):
>  
>
>>http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
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>
>
>
>
>
>  
>


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Re: [Biofuel] Alternative to Toxic Mold Compounds?

[Ray J]

How about fiberglass resin for the mold..?its not that good for you 
either, U mainly just have to watch out for the vapors.. its probably 
better than what you are using, from a safety stand point.

what about something cast from plaster or carved out of wood??


the biggest thing of jb weld u can get is only 10 oz.. and its probbly 
not that cheap...

Tensile Strength: 3960
Adhesion: 1800
Flex Strength: 7320
Tensile Lap Shear: 1040
Shrinkage: 0.0%
Resistant to: 500° F

Ray J




Peter Childers wrote:

>How about using JB Weld. It has a high heat resistance and is impervious to 
>oils and chemicals etc. Not sure how big your molds are but you may be able 
>to buy direct from JB Weld in larger quantities. It is a two part epoxy that 
>I have used to mold repair plastic items. It gravity flows and sets into a 
>shapeable and sandable mold.
>Peter
>- Original Message - 
>From: "Mike Weaver" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>To: 
>Sent: Friday, August 26, 2005 10:23 AM
>Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Alternative to Toxic Mold Compounds?
>
>
>  
>
>>What about milling Acrylic?
>>
>>Michael Redler wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>>I know that this may fall outside the scope of our usual discussions
>>>but, I thought there might be knowledge to gain here.
>>>
>>>In the process of building a prototype solar tracker, I'm stuck with a
>>>dilemma. Some of the parts I make need to be molded. So, I'm making
>>>silicone based molds and casting the parts with two-part polyurethane.
>>>
>>>According to the MSDS sheets, the catalyst for the silicone mold is a
>>>tin-based compound and very toxic. The reason I started in this
>>>direction is that it's readily available, widely used and proven to
>>>work. When finished, I can cast parts in almost any material. I can
>>>even pour low melt temperature metals.
>>>
>>>I would like to make/use a casting material from something which is
>>>safer to me and the environment and still be durable and
>>>weather-proof. I was making pasta the other night and found (the next
>>>morning) a couple of pieces of spaghetti, dried and conforming to the
>>>shape of the colander. It made me wonder if there is a casting
>>>materiel made of carbohydrates and /or starch that I can use with a
>>>latex rubber mold.
>>>
>>>Any thoughts?
>>>
>>>Mike
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>___
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>>>
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>>>
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>>>messages):
>>>http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>  
>>>
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>>
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>>
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>>messages):
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>>
>>
>>
>
>
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>
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>
>
>
>
>
>  
>


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Re: [Biofuel] Robertson / Chavez story on CNN

[capt3d]

one man's madness is another man's religioius rapture. . .lol

-chris b.

In a message dated 8/23/05 10:06:31 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

<< What mental hospital let this Robertson out too early? Does US not 
have the money to treat their "basket cases" in proper facilities? >>


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Re: [Biofuel] thanks

[malcolm maclure]

Stelios, 

Many congratulations!! The world needs guys like you & I think you have made
a wise choice for a career. I would wish you all the very best of luck, but
you don't need it - you're well on the way already!! :-)

WELL DONE!!!

Malcolm 



-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: 24 August 2005 07:59
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Subject: [Biofuel] thanks

Dear Prof Allen, Keith, et Al

With your help i made my dream possible.
I received my MSc in Environmental Engineering, and my diploma is titled:
Process development for biodiesel production from waste edible oils and
quality
control of the produced alternative fuel. 
My achivement however which i am really proud of is that i received three
awards
and 2 grants in national level (Greece), and i am waiting for another one
which
i replied lately in France. (very intereresting meeting opportunity to
exchange
ideas there www.innovact.com they have also a agro-meeting section)

My research interest is now on reclaiming biodiesel byproducts ang i am
considering the following: organic fertiliser(compost), natural antioxidants
(polyphenols, mainly from used olive oil),tocopherols, biopolymers,
metabolites
of glycerol (e.x. lactic acid). I think these should be mentioned on the web
site and i could  prepare something about these.

Thank you,
You are all in my heart.

Stelios

Stelios




  bob allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:

> You use it just like fossil crude oil.  Further refining will afford 
> just about what ever you want, from low molecular wt gases and 
> distillates up thru asphalt.
> 
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> > Can it be used as diesel substitute in cars? If not, what applications?
> >  
> > Rgds
> > WH
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > ___
> > Biofuel mailing list
> > Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
> >
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org
> > 
> > Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
> > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
> > 
> > Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000
> messages):
> > http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
> > 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Bob Allen
> http://ozarker.org/bob
> 
> "Science is what we have learned about how to keep
> from fooling ourselves" ? Richard Feynman
> 
> ___
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> 
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> 
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> messages):
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> 
> 




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Re: [Biofuel] lye

[Ash Daminato]

There are actually several Wal-Mart's that are in the process of being 
unionized/are unionized in Canada. The first one to unionize in Quebec 
was closed less than two weeks later. Wal-mart says the store wasn't 
profitable. The unions say it was to intimidate workers at other stores.

Vincent zadworny wrote:

> hi yall,
>  
> all i ahve to say is at least the walmarts aren't unionized. ( doesn't 
> make them better but ...   )  and that i agree with the going to a 
> chemical shop. they will have what you need.
>  
> vince z
>
> */Joe Street <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>/* wrote:
>
> Hi Don;
>
> The comment about walmart, I knew would be humorous to some on the
> list but it was serious too.  There is much interest on this list
> about fighting globalization and avoiding giving any support to
> large multinational corporations.  Many folks I come across seem
> to think biodiesel is a license to go on with the same world view
> and attitude but just for cheaper and better for the air (as a
> side benefit almost).  I hope you didn't feel stung by my little
> joke, and welcome to the list BTW.
> Try to find a local chemical supply house.  Look in the yellow
> pages under chemical.  Avoid things like drain cleaner which are
> not pure enough for the BD process.  You can find small quantities
> of lye intended for soap making which are pure but cost more than
> you should be paying.  Also avoid buying a huge bulk quantity
> which may seem the best economy, because you will need to use it
> before it absorbs moisture and degrades (gets kinda chalky white).
> Most commonly (around here) it looks like little spheres that are
> cut in half , white but not paper white,(that is old stuff) it is
> kind of translucent a little bit. Same goes for the alcohol.  It
> must be very pure and dry (no water content)  Some folks seem to
> be getting it from shops that cater to performance cars and drag
> racing.  I also found a supply in the phone book yellow pages.
> Support small local shops if possible.  I know this is a bit of a
> goofy statement when it comes to chemicals that are manufactured
> far away most likely by a huge company who doesn't have the
> environment as the number one priority but walmart is just pure evil.
>
> Joe
>
> don lyon wrote:
>
>> Joe what I was looking for was a little help on how to make this
>> bio-diesel fuel. I haven't looked at walmart for any additives to
>> use. I am planning on looking at our local hardware store. I will
>> be looking at the methonol alcohol and lye. I still don't know
>> how to test any batch made. Also the used steak oil I picked up
>> has oven cleaner mixed in it. Does that hurt anything? Thanks for
>> your help Joe. God Bless, Donald
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> God Bless, Donald Lyon 
>>
>> 
>> 
>> From: /Joe Street <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>/
>> Reply-To: /Biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
>> To: /Biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
>> Subject: /Re: [Biofuel] lye/
>> Date: /Mon, 22 Aug 2005 17:38:49 -0400/
>> >How can you be on this list and still be shopping at WALMART!!!
>> >Heaven help us.
>> >
>> >Joe
>> >
>> >[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>> >
>> > >first can I use red devil lye that is used for drain
>> cleaner is it pure lye,
>> > >it is in granular form should i grind it? also is
>> denatured alcohol what
>> > >you buy in wal-mart buy the quart ok to use for my test
>> batches and
>> > >training?
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >___
>> > >Biofuel mailing list
>> > >Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>> >
>> 
>> >http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org
>> > >
>> > >Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
>> > >http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
>> > >
>> > >Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives
>> (50,000 messages):
>> > >http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> >
>> >
>> >___
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>> 
>> >http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org
>> >
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>> >
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>> (50,000 messages):
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>> >
>>
>>---

Re: [Biofuel] Pat Robertson's business affiliation with Hugo Chavez

[Mike Weaver]

Ah,  I think Communism would've collapsed even w/o our "help" - it blew 
up in places even where we weren't meddling.
My own thoughts are realistic Capitalism - a reasonably regulated free 
market economy and a pragmatic federal government.
Think, oh, Finland.  I do think the Constitution allows for national 
health insurance: Quote:

We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect 
Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility 
, provide for the 
common defence , promote 
the general Welfare 
, and secure the 
Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity 
, do ordain 
 and establish this 
Constitution for the United States of America.

Falls under general Welfare

Andy Karpay wrote:

>I sent a letter (email) to the 700 club asking that they take Mr.
>Robertson off the air, as he offended us all.  I got a response back
>from them with about a 2 page dance-around in his defense which included
>direct quotes from his statement.  One of the telling remarks was that
>he (Robertson) had no fear of losing oil from Venezuela on Chavez's
>demise.  Oh, so I am to infer that, if we WERE to lose oil shipments
>from them it might be a bad thing to kill him?  It's all about the oil
>(pronounced M-O-N-E-Y).  
>
>It was stated here earlier, but the US is responsible for Allende's
>death in Chile (1973?), Guevara's death, death in Honduras (Iran-Contra
>scheme where arms were sold to Iran, our "ally" of the day, and the
>proceeds sent to the death squads in Honduras), on and on.  
>It is stated many times in this country that "communism has failed"
>therefore it is no good.  The truth is that much of communism's failure,
>in this hemisphere particularly, is due to our country's intervention to
>ensure the demise of democratically elected leaders (you can, and we do
>have democratic communism).  The US's fear is that if the country is
>communist, then we cannot exploit the labor and resources for our own
>gain, and the gain of the wealthy.  Remember, without poverty there is
>no wealth.
>
>AK
>
>
>Message: 2
>Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 09:43:32 -0400
>From: Mike Weaver <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Robertson et al VS. followers
>To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>
>I once sent them (Oral Roberts?) a brick.  They were asking for 25.00 to
>
>buy a brick, so I sent them a letter saying I could get a much better 
>price and did they want more.
>Cost me something like 4.00 for 4th class postage but it was worth it.
>
>Manick Harris wrote:
>
>  
>
>>Hi everybody,
>>I do not know about Robertson, but thereare many so-called 
>>'evangelists' whose sole purpose is to collect money from naive 
>>believers. My late mother once donated !R 200 to a well known TV 
>>evangelist.and received a hasty letter back from the guy stating that 
>>it wasn't enough even for one brick. God, what kind of bricks do you 
>>use anyway. The Indian evangelists often use resurrection trick to con
>>
>>
>
>  
>
>>target groups into parting with large amounts of cash. When one such 
>>fellow who was claiming how he resurrected a corpse noticed how I was 
>>frowning he turned me in anger. With these guys no public accounts are
>>
>>
>
>  
>
>>kept at all and everything goes into their pocket. One fellow here was
>>
>>
>
>  
>
>>exorcising a young girl  with her dress up and sitting on him, not 
>>knowing a police party was watching him...I think anyone who collects 
>>money should be accountable to prevent fraud of the divine kind. LOL
>>
>>*/BT <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>/* wrote:
>>
>>Greetings fellow revolutionary alchemists!
>>
>>The question I have is, How do we help separate the good-hearted
>>followers from their devious leaders?
>>
>>For example:
>>I often forward news and interesting articles (much of which I
>>find on this list, thanks to you all)  to a few friends and
>>family. I never get any responses. One of my friends I know is a
>>700 Club 'member' and his church preaches along the same political
>>lines. After forwarding the news about Robertson's comments, I
>>received this reply from my friend:
>>
>>"He is a passionate man who speaks from his heart and who has said
>>some stupid stuff in the past and probably will say some stupid
>>things in the future but he apologized and that's good in my
>>book.  Heck, it's alot more than most political or public figures
>>would do."
>> 
>>
>>"Is it right to call for assassination? No, and I apologize for
>>that statement," Robertson said. "I spoke in frustration that we
>>should accommodate the man who thinks the U.S. is 

Re: [Biofuel] DSE web site

[William Adams]

- Original Message - 
From: "Keith Addison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Thursday, August 25, 2005 8:47 PM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] DSE web site


> >Is DSE a believable site - has anyone had experience with them? My
>>first thought is that anything seeming too good to be true usually
>>is.   http://www.dieselsecret/com/products.htm
>
> Bob, do you TYPE urls???
Yep, but only when I can't remember to do a file>>,edit,copy,paste! :-)
>
> Oh well, no harm that it's broken. PLEASE DON'T FIX IT!

I must be really dense today.  What's broken?  I promise not to fix it! ;-)

>
> We recently had this comment from someone joining the list: "The ad
> for "Diesel Secret Energy" which came up through your web site I
> think should be shut down, it has all the earmarks of a scam."
>
> "Diesel Secret Energy" at Journey to Forever? No way! Not now, not
> ever! Which he then admitted, and apologised.
>
> Anyway, it does indeed have all the earmarks of a scam, not the
> first, certainly not the last. It's come up here before but it's so
> obviously a scam that very few people took any notice, we've seen so
> many!
>
> Hey, buddy, want a cheap quick fix? It's called biodiesel. Cheap

You don't need to sell me on it. I'm a believer, but just curious also about 
other things. I've read most of JTF's good stuff

> enough, quick enough, you don't need it any cheaper and quicker than
> that. What do they often say about biodiesel? "It sounds too good to
> be true..." But it IS true.
>
> Best wishes
>
> Keith
>
>
> __
Thanks, Keith, I really do enjoy your comments.

With Best to you also,

Bob
West Linn, OR_
> Biofuel mailing list
> Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
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>
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> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
>
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> messages):
> http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
>
> 



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Re: [Biofuel] Robertson et al VS. followers

[Keith Addison]

My my. And I was just thinking you might be a man who'd do a bit of 
checking before he shot his foot off. Again. I do rather wonder what 
you mean when you say "right here in America" when actually where you 
are right now is right here on the global Internet, on a global 
discussion group with a global membership that includes many Muslims 
living in Muslim countries, who are probably more aware than you are 
of calls from your country - calls and deeds done - to kill them and 
their leaders. But that doesn't count, does it? It does here. If you 
want outrage over the coverage of the war in Iraq you'll find it 
aplenty, but you won't like it - it's outrage at the unquestioning, 
knee-jerk coverage your so-called "liberal" press (ROFL!!!) gave to 
the pack of blatant lies that led unfailingly to everything and 
everybody getting torn to pieces in Iraq (as most of us predicted at 
the time), including your precious military, and every single promise 
broken.

>Wow and to think that I was going to use this list only to figure out
>how to titrate WVO correctly.
>At the risk at attracting perhaps merited flames ..
>Where is the outrage at the coverage of the war in Iraq ?
>Have you heard one positive story on NPR or anywhere else ?
>Where is the outrage at the fine work Michael Moore and numerous others
>are doing at peddling lies ?
>Where is the outrage when fine mothers, sisters, sons and fathers who
>are proud of the service their sons and daughters are offering in the
>Armed Services are not given any voice and one heartbroken mother is
>given weeks of press coverage because she is against the war in Irag ?
>And finally a point that may need some attention by the "Men of God"
>judicatory committee on this list :

What exactly do you mean by that?

>Where is the outrage at allowing Muslim clerics right here in America to
>daily call for the UTTER destruction of not only Americans who believe
>that Allah may not be the way, but also any other infidels?
>
>All I'm saying is that I for one  feel compelled to be very conscious of
>my own "blind spots" as I am chief among those who can stand only by
>grace .
>
>Just a thought to further take this list into a land far away from
>renewable energy sources.

It is not far away from renewable energy sources. I think you should 
read this carefully, since it looks as if you haven't already done so:

http://sustainablelists.org/pipermail/biofuel_sustainablelists.org/200 
5-May/07.html
Or:
http://snipurl.com/gi45

Best wishes

Keith


>In need of clarity,
>Clif
>
>TarynToo wrote:
>
> >Amen Robert!
> >
> >While not a christian, I've read many of the major scriptures of the
> >world. While reading the Robertson thread, I was thinking how badly we
> >needed to hear the "Who would Jesus hate? Who would Jesus kill?"
> >message.
> >
> >Your message is so on target. The most important teaching we receive,
> >not just from Jesus, but from almost all prophets is "Deeds are greater
> >than words. Love the least, as you love the great. Power demands
> >responsibility." If we are to follow their teachings, we must not tend
> >the church, we must tend our hearts and minds, and the whole world.
> >
> >All it takes to distinguish the truly good from the hypocrite, is to
> >attend to their actions more than their words. How sad that so many of
> >us are deceived by the transparent and self-serving lies of our
> >political, spiritual, and commercial masters.
> >
> >We are slaves, the truth will set us free.
> >Thank you, Taryn
> >ornae.com
> >
> >
> >On Aug 26, 2005, at 11:13 AM, robert luis rabello wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >>BT wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>>Greetings fellow revolutionary alchemists!
> >>>
> >>>The question I have is, How do we help separate the good-hearted
> >>>followers from their devious leaders?
> >>>
> >>>
> >>I've found the best thing to do is go back to the scriptures from
> >>whence Christians are supposed to derive standards for their behavior.
> >>  This is especially true when the argument of "you shouldn't judge
> >>anyone" comes to fore.  Now, Jesus himself said this, in the second
> >>part of Luke 12: 48:
> >>
> >>"From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and
> >>from one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked."
> >>
> >>Leaders, who ought to know better, are far more accountable than the
> >>average person.  When Jesus confronted the leaders of his day, he
> >>seldom had pleasant words for them for this very reason.  Here is an
> >>example:
> >>
> >>"Make a tree good and its fruit will be good, or make a tree bad and
> >>its fruit will be bad, for a tree is recognized by its fruit.
> >>(There's a biofuel angle in there!)  You brood of vipers!  How can you
> >>who are evil say anything good?  For out of the overflow of the heart
> >>the mouth speaks.  The good man brings good things out of the good
> >>stored up in him, and the evil man brings evil things out of the evil
> >>stored up in him.  But I

Re: [Biofuel] Robertson et al VS. followers

[Keith Addison]

Hello David

>Hakan Falk wrote:
>
>>David,
>>
>>So it is legal in US to suggest that a man should be assassinated?
>>
>
>I expect that's covered under free speech.
>
>I'd personally rate Robertsons comments as up there with any number 
>of people who advocate the death of Bush for crimes against humanity 
>or somesuch.  If Bush were assasinated would these people really be 
>responsible?

Maybe I didn't notice but I have not heard of anyone calling for the 
death of Bush. Excepting some of the victims of course, but not 
anybody in the US, which I think is what you're talking about.

>It's legal in the US to hold an opinion that someone should be 
>killed.  It's legal to express that opinion.  Bear in mind, of 
>course, that IANAL.
>
>It crosses the line when it becomes "inciting to violence" or 
>something clearer, like paying someone to perform the murder.
>
>>What if Chavez is murdered is murdered and CIA is behind it, will he
>>not be pursued for suggesting it?
>>
>I don't believe so.  The idea that the CIA would do something 
>because this nut thought it was a good idea is laughable.
>
>Take a step back and listen to yourself.  Does anyone on this list 
>thing anyone at the CIA is going to wake up and say "HEY!  Robertson 
>thinks we should assasinate a foreign head of state!  Guess we'd 
>better start laying plans"
>
>C'mon, that's just silly.

I'd be surprised if there weren't at least elements within the CIA 
who're thinking the same way as Robertson. I think the administration 
thinks the same way as Robertson. A lot of people think that. I think 
Chavez thinks that too. Have a look at this:

http://www.mail-archive.com/cgi-bin/htsearch?method=and&format=short&c 
onfig=biofuel_sustainablelists_org&restrict=&exclude=&words=chavez
Search results for 'chavez'
Or:
http://snipurl.com/h8up

"... Chavez( hey, they tried to oust him short of killing him)..." 
They tried just about everything, and the stakes are getting higher 
and higher. If you think this sort of stuff doesn't happen, then it'd 
be you who's being silly, IMHO.

http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/msg45962.html
Re: [Biofuel] Confessions of an Economic Hit Man

http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/BIOFUEL/41438/
An Interview with William Blum - The Granma Moses of Radical Writing

http://members.aol.com/superogue/homepage.htm
Rogue State: A Guide to the World's Only Superpower, by William Blum

http://members.aol.com/bblum6/American_holocaust.htm
Killing Hope: U.S. Military and CIA Interventions Since World War II,
by William Blum

http://members.aol.com/bblum6/American_holocaust.htm
The American Holocaust

... just to scratch the surface.

>>I know that it is against US law to have any agency to kill a leader of
>>an other Nation. This means also that Robertson is instigating a crime,
>>by suggesting it. Why is he not in jail?
>>
>
>He's not instigating a crime.  He's not causing a crime to be 
>committed.  He's not soliciting anyone to commit the crime.  He's 
>not offering money or other reward for the crime, he's not issuing a 
>challenge to his followers that one of them should go kill the man.
>
>He's expressing a moronic, immoral opinion, not calling people to 
>action.  I'm not trying to support Robertson, just trying to defend 
>free speech.  You see if you want to be able to speak freely you 
>have to let others do so too, even if you don't like what they say.

There is no society that doesn't put restrictions on free speech, of 
necessity, and it's a very difficult line to draw. Inciting to 
violence is a case in point - it's obvious? Maybe, but it's a 
restriction of free speech just the same, and there are many others, 
along with a constantly shifting grey area.

>And I'd suggest that people here think along those lines.

Nothing new to us David. But it's more than just a label, or maybe 
less. You're making a mistake in writing off much of this discussion 
as "rhetoric", as you did. If you took a less blinkered look you'd 
see that a great deal of information has been provided, the list 
archives is now a good resource on Pat Robertson. Any future 
discussion here of Pat Robertson or of any similar event will be 
better informed from the start, as with many other subjects. And 
that's what's needed as a true basis for free speech - free 
information. The true enemy of free speech and all freedom is spin as 
much as fascism, IMHO, and Pat Robertson has provided us with yet 
another example of that too. Several.

>If expressing the opinion that a criminal act would  have a 
>desirable outcome becomes a crime then free speech no longer exists. 
>IE, if someone suggests that the world would be a better place 
>without Bush are you calling for a crime to be committed and subject 
>to arrest?  In the US we call that dissent,

These days you (pl) call it treason as much as anything else. What's 
the punishment for treason in the US?

>and the government may be trying to extinguish it but they haven't 
>yet succeeded. 

[Biofuel] Pat Robertson's business affiliation with Hugo Chavez

[Andy Karpay]

I sent a letter (email) to the 700 club asking that they take Mr.
Robertson off the air, as he offended us all.  I got a response back
from them with about a 2 page dance-around in his defense which included
direct quotes from his statement.  One of the telling remarks was that
he (Robertson) had no fear of losing oil from Venezuela on Chavez's
demise.  Oh, so I am to infer that, if we WERE to lose oil shipments
from them it might be a bad thing to kill him?  It's all about the oil
(pronounced M-O-N-E-Y).  

It was stated here earlier, but the US is responsible for Allende's
death in Chile (1973?), Guevara's death, death in Honduras (Iran-Contra
scheme where arms were sold to Iran, our "ally" of the day, and the
proceeds sent to the death squads in Honduras), on and on.  
It is stated many times in this country that "communism has failed"
therefore it is no good.  The truth is that much of communism's failure,
in this hemisphere particularly, is due to our country's intervention to
ensure the demise of democratically elected leaders (you can, and we do
have democratic communism).  The US's fear is that if the country is
communist, then we cannot exploit the labor and resources for our own
gain, and the gain of the wealthy.  Remember, without poverty there is
no wealth.

AK


Message: 2
Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 09:43:32 -0400
From: Mike Weaver <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Robertson et al VS. followers
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

I once sent them (Oral Roberts?) a brick.  They were asking for 25.00 to

buy a brick, so I sent them a letter saying I could get a much better 
price and did they want more.
Cost me something like 4.00 for 4th class postage but it was worth it.

Manick Harris wrote:

> Hi everybody,
> I do not know about Robertson, but thereare many so-called 
> 'evangelists' whose sole purpose is to collect money from naive 
> believers. My late mother once donated !R 200 to a well known TV 
> evangelist.and received a hasty letter back from the guy stating that 
> it wasn't enough even for one brick. God, what kind of bricks do you 
> use anyway. The Indian evangelists often use resurrection trick to con

> target groups into parting with large amounts of cash. When one such 
> fellow who was claiming how he resurrected a corpse noticed how I was 
> frowning he turned me in anger. With these guys no public accounts are

> kept at all and everything goes into their pocket. One fellow here was

> exorcising a young girl  with her dress up and sitting on him, not 
> knowing a police party was watching him...I think anyone who collects 
> money should be accountable to prevent fraud of the divine kind. LOL
>
> */BT <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>/* wrote:
>
> Greetings fellow revolutionary alchemists!
>
> The question I have is, How do we help separate the good-hearted
> followers from their devious leaders?
>
> For example:
> I often forward news and interesting articles (much of which I
> find on this list, thanks to you all)  to a few friends and
> family. I never get any responses. One of my friends I know is a
> 700 Club 'member' and his church preaches along the same political
> lines. After forwarding the news about Robertson's comments, I
> received this reply from my friend:
> 
> "He is a passionate man who speaks from his heart and who has said
> some stupid stuff in the past and probably will say some stupid
> things in the future but he apologized and that's good in my
> book.  Heck, it's alot more than most political or public figures
> would do."
>  
>
> "Is it right to call for assassination? No, and I apologize for
> that statement," Robertson said. "I spoke in frustration that we
> should accommodate the man who thinks the U.S. is out to kill
him."
>
> http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/08/24/robertson.chavez/index.html
>
> 
> To which I responded with a more complete quote from Robertson's
> "apology", a page of links relating to Robertson's money-making
> operations in Africa (included at the bottom of this long email,
> in case anyone is interested)  and a comment:
>
> "Obviously Pat Robertson does not have any business interests in
> common with Hugo Chavez, otherwise Robertson would be defending
> Chavez instead of condemning him."
>
> My friend's reply:
> --
>
> "I heard from a story on NPR the other day regarding a current
> State Governor that when in the political spotlight and "riding a
> white horse" the dirt shows up easier.  Too many resources have
> been wasted on putting Pat Roberts[on] on public "trial". 
> Everyone knows that he is a religous man but the primary word in
> that description is "man".  He is not God.  Man makes mistakes. 
> When shadey politicians make mistakes it's OK because nobody
> expect

Re: [Biofuel] Robertson et al VS. followers

[Mike Weaver]

Speaking of outrage, I thought the "Mission Accomplished" news stunt was 
pretty outrageous.

robert luis rabello wrote:

>Clif Caldwell wrote:
>
>  
>
>>Wow and to think that I was going to use this list only to figure out 
>>how to titrate WVO correctly.
>>At the risk at attracting perhaps merited flames ..
>>Where is the outrage at the coverage of the war in Iraq ?
>>
>>
>
>   There's a lot of this kind of discussion in the archives.
>
>  
>
>>Have you heard one positive story on NPR or anywhere else ?
>>
>>
>
>   Well, initially the news coverage seemed almost gleeful.  The news, 
>however, has been getting more and more grim.  Perhaps the early flush 
>of military success made some people believe that our mission in Iraq 
>would be accomplished with little bloodshed.  (Did anyone with a 
>serious knowledge of our capability to project power ever believe we 
>would have difficulty rolling over the Iraqi army?  They made the most 
>inept defense of a nation I can recall.)  Now, however, we're dealing 
>with the harsh reality of trying to unify a nation long held together 
>by force.  I, for one, never doubted we could defeat the Iraqi army. 
>I, for one, never believed we could defeat the Iraqi people.
>
>  
>
>>Where is the outrage at the fine work Michael Moore and numerous others 
>>are doing at peddling lies ?
>>
>>
>
>   Lies?  Hmm . . .  I'll let Todd handle that one.
>
>  
>
>>Where is the outrage when fine mothers, sisters, sons and fathers who 
>>are proud of the service their sons and daughters are offering in the 
>>Armed Services are not given any voice and one heartbroken mother is 
>>given weeks of press coverage because she is against the war in Irag ?
>>
>>
>
>   I've found news coverage in the United States astonishingly pro war. 
>  For a long time, it seemed that very few voices were being raised in 
>opposition, and those of us who DID speak out were being shouted down 
>by a strong militarist sentiment that seemed pervasive in the United 
>States.  This is another topic we've discussed here many times.
>
>   Having written this, please don't confuse my opposition to the war 
>with opposition to individual soldiers.
>
>
>  
>
>>And finally a point that may need some attention by the "Men of God" 
>>judicatory committee on this list :
>>Where is the outrage at allowing Muslim clerics right here in America to 
>>daily call for the UTTER destruction of not only Americans who believe 
>>that Allah may not be the way, but also any other infidels?
>>
>>
>
>   You will find a very strong thread of sentiment among most people who 
>post here that decries "fundamentalism" in any form.  However, this is 
>also an international list, and some of the discussion here has 
>included an examination of WHY radical Islam has captured the 
>imagination of so many people.  Most of us Americans don't like to 
>hear some of these things.  Though I often find them hard to read, 
>listening has opened my mind to a perspective that differs radically 
>from my own.
>
>   Now, if we were behaving as a truly "Christian" nation, the world 
>would be a very different place, and I believe we would not be 
>inciting the wrath of so many citizens in other countries.
>
>
>  
>
>>All I'm saying is that I for one  feel compelled to be very conscious of 
>>my own "blind spots" as I am chief among those who can stand only by 
>>grace .
>>
>>
>
>   Indeed, as we all are.
>
>
>  
>
>>Just a thought to further take this list into a land far away from 
>>renewable energy sources.
>>
>>
>>
>
>   Some of these issues may seem tangential at first.  Close 
>examination, however, will reveal how energy use, foreign policy, 
>religious perspective, racism and many other "isms" blend to create 
>the overall milieu in which the topic of biofuels exist.  We who have 
>been here for any length of time agree by consensus that which is 
>deserving of discussion and that which is not.  It's remarkably self 
>regulating, for the most part.
>
>   Do you disagree with anything I've posted concerning "men of God" and 
>the scriptures?  Do you not see the relationship between oil reserves 
>in Venezuela and Mr. Robertson's political posturing?  In this thread, 
>we have the realms of religion and politics blending quite clearly 
>with an underlying need to access the world's energy supplies; by 
>force, if necessary.  Deal with the energy use issue, and the 
>compelling "need" to complain about Chavez will go away.
>
>
>robert luis rabello
>"The Edge of Justice"
>Adventure for Your Mind
>http://www.newadventure.ca
>
>Ranger Supercharger Project Page
>http://www.members.shaw.ca/rabello/
>
>
>
>___
>Biofuel mailing list
>Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org
>
>Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
>http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
>
>Search the combined Biofu

Re: [Biofuel] Robertson et al VS. followers

[Mike Weaver]

Clif Caldwell wrote:

>Wow and to think that I was going to use this list only to figure out 
>how to titrate WVO correctly.
>At the risk at attracting perhaps merited flames ..
>Where is the outrage at the coverage of the war in Iraq ?
>  
>
I am a US citizen and I am outraged.  I believe we need a massive 
demonstration mach on Washington DC to
make our voices heard.

>Have you heard one positive story on NPR or anywhere else ?
>  
>
There are plenty of stories in The Washington Post and even in the NY 
Times that have documented some positives aspects.
Unfortunately, the war has been a fiasco.  The Bush administration had 
no plans as to what to do after the invasion, and in fact
actively and anrgrily denounced any attempts to work out a post-conflict 
reconstruction plan prior to the invasion.   They've brought this on 
themselves, us, and the citizens of Iraq.

>Where is the outrage at the fine work Michael Moore and numerous others 
>are doing at peddling lies ?
>  
>
Which lies are you talking about?  It's easy to rant - how about some 
specifics?

>Where is the outrage when fine mothers, sisters, sons and fathers who 
>are proud of the service their sons and daughters are offering in the 
>Armed Services are not given any voice and one heartbroken mother is 
>given weeks of press coverage because she is against the war in Irag ?
>  
>
When the evening news rolls the names of those killed in combat in Iraq, 
respectfully, in silence, the response from the neocons is that
"they're focusing on the bad things".  The Post has run three (just from 
memory) front page stories about local soldiers and their families and 
the services they receive.  And I wonder how the Tillman family feels, 
if you want to talk about lies?

You are upset because she is exercising her right to free speech?

>And finally a point that may need some attention by the "Men of God" 
>judicatory committee on this list :
>Where is the outrage at allowing Muslim clerics right here in America to 
>daily call for the UTTER destruction of not only Americans who believe 
>that Allah may not be the way, but also any other infidels?
>  
>
Islam has its crackpots; Christianity has Pat Robertson.  I don't defend 
either one.

>All I'm saying is that I for one  feel compelled to be very conscious of 
>my own "blind spots" as I am chief among those who can stand only by 
>grace .
>
>Just a thought to further take this list into a land far away from 
>renewable energy sources.
>
>In need of clarity,
>Clif
>
>TarynToo wrote:
>
>  
>
>>Amen Robert!
>>
>>While not a christian, I've read many of the major scriptures of the 
>>world. While reading the Robertson thread, I was thinking how badly we 
>>needed to hear the "Who would Jesus hate? Who would Jesus kill?" 
>>message.
>>
>>Your message is so on target. The most important teaching we receive, 
>>not just from Jesus, but from almost all prophets is "Deeds are greater 
>>than words. Love the least, as you love the great. Power demands 
>>responsibility." If we are to follow their teachings, we must not tend 
>>the church, we must tend our hearts and minds, and the whole world.
>>
>>All it takes to distinguish the truly good from the hypocrite, is to 
>>attend to their actions more than their words. How sad that so many of 
>>us are deceived by the transparent and self-serving lies of our 
>>political, spiritual, and commercial masters.
>>
>>We are slaves, the truth will set us free.
>>Thank you, Taryn
>>ornae.com
>>
>>
>>On Aug 26, 2005, at 11:13 AM, robert luis rabello wrote:
>>
>> 
>>
>>
>>
>>>BT wrote:
>>>   
>>>
>>>  
>>>
Greetings fellow revolutionary alchemists!

The question I have is, How do we help separate the good-hearted
followers from their devious leaders?
 



>>> I've found the best thing to do is go back to the scriptures from
>>>whence Christians are supposed to derive standards for their behavior.
>>> This is especially true when the argument of "you shouldn't judge
>>>anyone" comes to fore.  Now, Jesus himself said this, in the second
>>>part of Luke 12: 48:
>>>
>>> "From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and
>>>  
>>>
>>>from one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked."
>>
>>
>>> Leaders, who ought to know better, are far more accountable than the
>>>average person.  When Jesus confronted the leaders of his day, he
>>>seldom had pleasant words for them for this very reason.  Here is an
>>>example:
>>>
>>> "Make a tree good and its fruit will be good, or make a tree bad and
>>>its fruit will be bad, for a tree is recognized by its fruit.
>>>(There's a biofuel angle in there!)  You brood of vipers!  How can you
>>>who are evil say anything good?  For out of the overflow of the heart
>>>the mouth speaks.  The good man brings good things out of the good
>>>stored up in him, and the evil man brings evil things out of the evil
>>>stored up in him.  But I t

Re: [Biofuel] Robertson et al VS. followers

[robert luis rabello]

Clif Caldwell wrote:

> Wow and to think that I was going to use this list only to figure out 
> how to titrate WVO correctly.
> At the risk at attracting perhaps merited flames ..
> Where is the outrage at the coverage of the war in Iraq ?

There's a lot of this kind of discussion in the archives.

> Have you heard one positive story on NPR or anywhere else ?

Well, initially the news coverage seemed almost gleeful.  The news, 
however, has been getting more and more grim.  Perhaps the early flush 
of military success made some people believe that our mission in Iraq 
would be accomplished with little bloodshed.  (Did anyone with a 
serious knowledge of our capability to project power ever believe we 
would have difficulty rolling over the Iraqi army?  They made the most 
inept defense of a nation I can recall.)  Now, however, we're dealing 
with the harsh reality of trying to unify a nation long held together 
by force.  I, for one, never doubted we could defeat the Iraqi army. 
I, for one, never believed we could defeat the Iraqi people.

> Where is the outrage at the fine work Michael Moore and numerous others 
> are doing at peddling lies ?

Lies?  Hmm . . .  I'll let Todd handle that one.

> Where is the outrage when fine mothers, sisters, sons and fathers who 
> are proud of the service their sons and daughters are offering in the 
> Armed Services are not given any voice and one heartbroken mother is 
> given weeks of press coverage because she is against the war in Irag ?

I've found news coverage in the United States astonishingly pro war. 
  For a long time, it seemed that very few voices were being raised in 
opposition, and those of us who DID speak out were being shouted down 
by a strong militarist sentiment that seemed pervasive in the United 
States.  This is another topic we've discussed here many times.

Having written this, please don't confuse my opposition to the war 
with opposition to individual soldiers.


> And finally a point that may need some attention by the "Men of God" 
> judicatory committee on this list :
> Where is the outrage at allowing Muslim clerics right here in America to 
> daily call for the UTTER destruction of not only Americans who believe 
> that Allah may not be the way, but also any other infidels?

You will find a very strong thread of sentiment among most people who 
post here that decries "fundamentalism" in any form.  However, this is 
also an international list, and some of the discussion here has 
included an examination of WHY radical Islam has captured the 
imagination of so many people.  Most of us Americans don't like to 
hear some of these things.  Though I often find them hard to read, 
listening has opened my mind to a perspective that differs radically 
from my own.

Now, if we were behaving as a truly "Christian" nation, the world 
would be a very different place, and I believe we would not be 
inciting the wrath of so many citizens in other countries.


> All I'm saying is that I for one  feel compelled to be very conscious of 
> my own "blind spots" as I am chief among those who can stand only by 
> grace .

Indeed, as we all are.


> Just a thought to further take this list into a land far away from 
> renewable energy sources.
> 

Some of these issues may seem tangential at first.  Close 
examination, however, will reveal how energy use, foreign policy, 
religious perspective, racism and many other "isms" blend to create 
the overall milieu in which the topic of biofuels exist.  We who have 
been here for any length of time agree by consensus that which is 
deserving of discussion and that which is not.  It's remarkably self 
regulating, for the most part.

Do you disagree with anything I've posted concerning "men of God" and 
the scriptures?  Do you not see the relationship between oil reserves 
in Venezuela and Mr. Robertson's political posturing?  In this thread, 
we have the realms of religion and politics blending quite clearly 
with an underlying need to access the world's energy supplies; by 
force, if necessary.  Deal with the energy use issue, and the 
compelling "need" to complain about Chavez will go away.


robert luis rabello
"The Edge of Justice"
Adventure for Your Mind
http://www.newadventure.ca

Ranger Supercharger Project Page
http://www.members.shaw.ca/rabello/



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Re: [Biofuel] Robertson et al VS. followers

[David Miller]

Hakan Falk wrote:

>David,
>
>So it is legal in US to suggest that a man should be assassinated?
>  
>

I expect that's covered under free speech.

I'd personally rate Robertsons comments as up there with any number of 
people who advocate the death of Bush for crimes against humanity or 
somesuch.  If Bush were assasinated would these people really be 
responsible?

It's legal in the US to hold an opinion that someone should be killed.  
It's legal to express that opinion.  Bear in mind, of course, that IANAL.

It crosses the line when it becomes "inciting to violence" or something 
clearer, like paying someone to perform the murder.

>What if Chavez is murdered is murdered and CIA is behind it, will he
>not be pursued for suggesting it?
>  
>
I don't believe so.  The idea that the CIA would do something because 
this nut thought it was a good idea is laughable.

Take a step back and listen to yourself.  Does anyone on this list thing 
anyone at the CIA is going to wake up and say "HEY!  Robertson thinks we 
should assasinate a foreign head of state!  Guess we'd better start 
laying plans"

C'mon, that's just silly.

>I know that it is against US law to have any agency to kill a leader of
>an other Nation. This means also that Robertson is instigating a crime,
>by suggesting it. Why is he not in jail?
>  
>

He's not instigating a crime.  He's not causing a crime to be 
committed.  He's not soliciting anyone to commit the crime.  He's not 
offering money or other reward for the crime, he's not issuing a 
challenge to his followers that one of them should go kill the man.

He's expressing a moronic, immoral opinion, not calling people to 
action.  I'm not trying to support Robertson, just trying to defend free 
speech.  You see if you want to be able to speak freely you have to let 
others do so too, even if you don't like what they say.

And I'd suggest that people here think along those lines.  If expressing 
the opinion that a criminal act would  have a desirable outcome becomes 
a crime then free speech no longer exists.  IE, if someone suggests that 
the world would be a better place without Bush are you calling for a 
crime to be committed and subject to arrest?  In the US we call that 
dissent, and the government may be trying to extinguish it but they 
haven't yet succeeded.  Lets not give them any ammo in their efforts.

--- David



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Re: [Biofuel] temperate oilseed tree

[Erik Andelman]

> > You can get seeds from ECHO. Try jojoba too.
>
>I just ordered 5,000 moringa seeds. US$150 including
>shipping. At the post office now.  I'll post info on
>germination rate later.

Hi,

Looking forward to hearing about germination, but I noticed you're in
Thailand, and I was originally wondering about at *temperate*
tree.  The brief info I found on the web does show this tree comes
from himalayan "foothills" but depending on altitude that could mean a
lot of different climates.

Does this tree grow where it gets cold in the winter?  Average low
for january here is 26F (-3C) but record low is -19F (-28C).
Thanks so much,
Erik

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Re: [Biofuel] Robertson et al VS. followers

[Fred Finch]

Clif, 

No flames from me just...



> Where is the outrage at the coverage of the war in Iraq ?

Coverage is adequate and the news is not very good.

> Have you heard one positive story on NPR or anywhere else ?

When there is no good news what is the use of making a fake report?

> Where is the outrage at the fine work Michael Moore and numerous others
> are doing at peddling lies ?

Lies or opinions?  It seems that Pat roberston can have them but not
Michael Moore?  Cite Links to the lies and we'll talk...

> Where is the outrage when fine mothers, sisters, sons and fathers who
> are proud of the service their sons and daughters are offering in the
> Armed Services are not given any voice and one heartbroken mother is
> given weeks of press coverage because she is against the war in Irag ?

It seems that President Bush and Faux Nooze  is giving them voice, but
who is listening?

> And finally a point that may need some attention by the "Men of God"
> judicatory committee on this list :
> Where is the outrage at allowing Muslim clerics right here in America to
> daily call for the UTTER destruction of not only Americans who believe
> that Allah may not be the way, but also any other infidels?

Again, cite a link and we'll talk.  

For every link you bring, I will find 10 Muslim cleric statements
denouncing those statements and the war and the 9/11 attacks.

> 
> All I'm saying is that I for one  feel compelled to be very conscious of
> my own "blind spots" as I am chief among those who can stand only by
> grace .

Yet you make it point to attempt to point out the "blind spots" of others.  

A suggestion perhaps, work on your own "blind spots."  

IMO, Peace is not a blind spot.  

fred


> 
> Just a thought to further take this list into a land far away from
> renewable energy sources.
> 
> In need of clarity,
> Clif
> 
> TarynToo wrote:
> 
> >Amen Robert!
> >
> >While not a christian, I've read many of the major scriptures of the
> >world. While reading the Robertson thread, I was thinking how badly we
> >needed to hear the "Who would Jesus hate? Who would Jesus kill?"
> >message.
> >
> >Your message is so on target. The most important teaching we receive,
> >not just from Jesus, but from almost all prophets is "Deeds are greater
> >than words. Love the least, as you love the great. Power demands
> >responsibility." If we are to follow their teachings, we must not tend
> >the church, we must tend our hearts and minds, and the whole world.
> >
> >All it takes to distinguish the truly good from the hypocrite, is to
> >attend to their actions more than their words. How sad that so many of
> >us are deceived by the transparent and self-serving lies of our
> >political, spiritual, and commercial masters.
> >
> >We are slaves, the truth will set us free.
> >Thank you, Taryn
> >ornae.com
> >
> >
> >On Aug 26, 2005, at 11:13 AM, robert luis rabello wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >>BT wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>>Greetings fellow revolutionary alchemists!
> >>>
> >>>The question I have is, How do we help separate the good-hearted
> >>>followers from their devious leaders?
> >>>
> >>>
> >>  I've found the best thing to do is go back to the scriptures from
> >>whence Christians are supposed to derive standards for their behavior.
> >>  This is especially true when the argument of "you shouldn't judge
> >>anyone" comes to fore.  Now, Jesus himself said this, in the second
> >>part of Luke 12: 48:
> >>
> >>  "From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and
> >>from one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked."
> >>
> >>  Leaders, who ought to know better, are far more accountable than the
> >>average person.  When Jesus confronted the leaders of his day, he
> >>seldom had pleasant words for them for this very reason.  Here is an
> >>example:
> >>
> >>  "Make a tree good and its fruit will be good, or make a tree bad and
> >>its fruit will be bad, for a tree is recognized by its fruit.
> >>(There's a biofuel angle in there!)  You brood of vipers!  How can you
> >>who are evil say anything good?  For out of the overflow of the heart
> >>the mouth speaks.  The good man brings good things out of the good
> >>stored up in him, and the evil man brings evil things out of the evil
> >>stored up in him.  But I tell you that men will have to give account
> >>on the day of judgment for every careless word they have spoken.  For
> >>by your words you will be acquitted, and by your words you will be
> >>condemned."  (Matthew 12: 33 - 37)
> >>
> >>  So, no higher authority than Jesus Christ himself condemns reckless
> >>rhetoric, and we who call ourselves Christians should not soft pedal
> >>this kind of behavior either.  A man like Pat Robertson, who CLAIMS to
> >>be a Christian, should have read statements of this nature and taken
> >>them to heart long ago.  When I complain about this kind of problem, I
> >>do so because it degrades the standing of the Christian faith in the
> >>eyes 

Re: [Biofuel] Robertson et al VS. followers

[Keith Addison]

>Hakan Falk wrote:
>
> > Robert,
> >
> > A question,
> >
> > In many countries death threat and instigation of murdering a person
> > is against the criminal laws. Is it not the same in US and if, why
> > have they not arrested and questioned Robertson?
>
>   At the very least, such a threat would cross the threshold of
>assault, provided that Mr. Robertson had the means at his disposal to
>carry out his intention.  Even though his followers are legion, he
>really LACKS the power to do anything more than influence his minions
>to send money, or vote a certain way.  Therefore the question is this:
>  "Who will press charges under American law?"
>
>   Many of us over here consider Pat Robertson and other "evangelists"
>of his ilk little more than buffoons not worthy of serious
>consideration.

Not when you consider the effect he's had Robert. He's highly 
dangerous, IMHO. All of them are, they've been frightening me for 20 
years.

Anyway, more in response to your other post, we seem to have the same 
problems with our religions that we have with our governments and 
corporations etc etc - the backward and unregenerate institutions of 
our societies, as opposed (very much so!) to the interests of the 
community. We don't seem to find much more religion in religions than 
we find democracy in governments or anything Adam Smith wouldn't have 
been outraged by in corporations. As with the others, I mean 
religious organisations rather than the individuals belonging to the 
religion. We humans are not happy in our so-called leaders! But we 
seldom have been. Religions have always been good business. 
Interesting piece below...

Best wishes

Keith


>(He could probably plead insanity to any such charge
>anyway and list a mountain of evidence in support of his claim.)  In
>that light, it's simply not worth taxpayer money to bother.
>
>
>robert luis rabello

http://www.counterpunch.com/jacobs08252005.html
August 24, 2005

Who Would Jesus Assassinate?

Hugo Chavez and the Men Who Claim to Speak for Jesus

By RON JACOBS

You know, when I was growing up as a Catholic, I was given many 
differing views of Jesus Christ. Virtually all of them were 
speculative, of course, and as I grew older, I became aware that most 
of them were based on the teacher's particular political and cultural 
persuasion. The Pallotinian nuns that taught me in the first and 
second grades were always telling us horror stories about the 
communists in the Soviet Union and China and had us pray for the 
souls of their children every morning. The Jesuits I knew in high 
school provided me and my fellow catechism students with a different 
view of Jesus. Indeed, for most of these men Jesus was a 
revolutionary. How much of his revolution was spiritual and how much 
was social depended on their level of social and political 
involvement. Being a very political person, I saw Jesus as a 
revolutionary communist with a small "c." Of course, there were a 
number of men with Roman collars at the time who were taking this 
perception and turning it into the basis for a social movement in 
many parts of the world, especially in Latin America. Many of them 
were Jesuits.

It is this tradition that Hugo Chavez of Venezuela recalls in his 
speeches and social programs. It is also this tradition, known today 
as liberation theology that the late pope John Paul II attacked 
within months of his appointment in 1978. John Paul II's opposition 
to this perception of Jesus and his works were also part of the 
reason for the demotion of the Jesuit order as the pope's protectors 
and the ascension of the right wing Catholic organization Opus Dei 
into that role. The new pope is even less sympathetic to this train 
of thought. The underlying reason for this vehement opposition to 
liberation theology among the Catholic hierarchy stems from its 
alliances with nonreligious leftists and its attacks on the Church's 
role as part of the oppressive structure in the world of the 
peasantry. Nowhere is this role greater than it is in Latin America.

Ever since Chavez began his popular upheaval in Venezuela he has been 
under attack by the Catholic hierarchy in that country. In fact, 
members of Opus Dei were involved in the failed coup of 2000 and have 
been instrumental in the CIA-funded opposition movement since the 
coup, just as they were intimately involved in the murderous 
CIA-sponsored coup in September 1973 in Chile. Last month, Bishop 
Baltazar Porras, president of the Venezuelan bishops' conference, 
said proponents of radical liberation theology are using it to weaken 
and divide the Church. "This is part of a plan to debilitate the 
Church," Porras told The Associated Press in an interview last week. 
He cited a recent forum in which the Church was accused of turning 
her back on the poor, where Chavez garners most of his political 
support. "This is a new program led by a group of theologians like 
the ones in the times of the Sandinista rule in Nicara

Re: [Biofuel] DSE web site

[Keith Addison]

Hi Chris

> > Do you mean John Nicholson's Biopower stuff Chris? <
>
>Hi Keith, No idea I just caught part of a news item while channel
>changing. The reporter was telling about this chap who collected all the
>old cooking oil in his area, mixed it with an additive (some sort of
>catalyst) then left it to settle. Skimmed off the clean stuff and used
>it. It was seeing that news clip that made me join this list.

:-) And welcome you are. I think you may have had a lucky escape, 
good timing there with the bad timing with the channel switcher.

Best

Keith


>Chris


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Re: [Biofuel] Robertson et al VS. followers

[Clif Caldwell]

Wow and to think that I was going to use this list only to figure out 
how to titrate WVO correctly.
At the risk at attracting perhaps merited flames ..
Where is the outrage at the coverage of the war in Iraq ?
Have you heard one positive story on NPR or anywhere else ?
Where is the outrage at the fine work Michael Moore and numerous others 
are doing at peddling lies ?
Where is the outrage when fine mothers, sisters, sons and fathers who 
are proud of the service their sons and daughters are offering in the 
Armed Services are not given any voice and one heartbroken mother is 
given weeks of press coverage because she is against the war in Irag ?
And finally a point that may need some attention by the "Men of God" 
judicatory committee on this list :
Where is the outrage at allowing Muslim clerics right here in America to 
daily call for the UTTER destruction of not only Americans who believe 
that Allah may not be the way, but also any other infidels?

All I'm saying is that I for one  feel compelled to be very conscious of 
my own "blind spots" as I am chief among those who can stand only by 
grace .

Just a thought to further take this list into a land far away from 
renewable energy sources.

In need of clarity,
Clif

TarynToo wrote:

>Amen Robert!
>
>While not a christian, I've read many of the major scriptures of the 
>world. While reading the Robertson thread, I was thinking how badly we 
>needed to hear the "Who would Jesus hate? Who would Jesus kill?" 
>message.
>
>Your message is so on target. The most important teaching we receive, 
>not just from Jesus, but from almost all prophets is "Deeds are greater 
>than words. Love the least, as you love the great. Power demands 
>responsibility." If we are to follow their teachings, we must not tend 
>the church, we must tend our hearts and minds, and the whole world.
>
>All it takes to distinguish the truly good from the hypocrite, is to 
>attend to their actions more than their words. How sad that so many of 
>us are deceived by the transparent and self-serving lies of our 
>political, spiritual, and commercial masters.
>
>We are slaves, the truth will set us free.
>Thank you, Taryn
>ornae.com
>
>
>On Aug 26, 2005, at 11:13 AM, robert luis rabello wrote:
>
>  
>
>>BT wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Greetings fellow revolutionary alchemists!
>>>
>>>The question I have is, How do we help separate the good-hearted
>>>followers from their devious leaders?
>>>  
>>>
>>  I've found the best thing to do is go back to the scriptures from
>>whence Christians are supposed to derive standards for their behavior.
>>  This is especially true when the argument of "you shouldn't judge
>>anyone" comes to fore.  Now, Jesus himself said this, in the second
>>part of Luke 12: 48:
>>
>>  "From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and
>>from one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked."
>>
>>  Leaders, who ought to know better, are far more accountable than the
>>average person.  When Jesus confronted the leaders of his day, he
>>seldom had pleasant words for them for this very reason.  Here is an
>>example:
>>
>>  "Make a tree good and its fruit will be good, or make a tree bad and
>>its fruit will be bad, for a tree is recognized by its fruit.
>>(There's a biofuel angle in there!)  You brood of vipers!  How can you
>>who are evil say anything good?  For out of the overflow of the heart
>>the mouth speaks.  The good man brings good things out of the good
>>stored up in him, and the evil man brings evil things out of the evil
>>stored up in him.  But I tell you that men will have to give account
>>on the day of judgment for every careless word they have spoken.  For
>>by your words you will be acquitted, and by your words you will be
>>condemned."  (Matthew 12: 33 - 37)
>>
>>  So, no higher authority than Jesus Christ himself condemns reckless
>>rhetoric, and we who call ourselves Christians should not soft pedal
>>this kind of behavior either.  A man like Pat Robertson, who CLAIMS to
>>be a Christian, should have read statements of this nature and taken
>>them to heart long ago.  When I complain about this kind of problem, I
>>do so because it degrades the standing of the Christian faith in the
>>eyes of nonbelievers who are watching.  If I, a nobody, get upset when
>>the name of God is blasphemed in this manner, shouldn't genuine
>>Christian leaders roundly condemn the same behavior?  After all, this
>>is what the scriptures admonish:
>>
>>  "Live such good lives among the pagans that, though they accuse you
>>of wrongdoing, they may see your good deeds and glorify God on the day
>>he visits us."  (1 Peter 2: 12)
>>
>>  And elsewhere:
>>
>>  "But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there
>>WILL BE FALSE TEACHERS AMONG YOU.  (Emphasis is mine.)  They will
>>secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Sovereign
>>Lord who bought them--bringing swift destruction on the

Re: [Biofuel] Robertson et al VS. followers

[Hakan Falk]

David,

So it is legal in US to suggest that a man should be assassinated?
What if Chavez is murdered is murdered and CIA is behind it, will he
not be pursued for suggesting it?

I know that it is against US law to have any agency to kill a leader of
an other Nation. This means also that Robertson is instigating a crime,
by suggesting it. Why is he not in jail?

Hakan

At 19:41 26/08/2005, you wrote:
>Hakan Falk wrote:
>
> >Robert,
> >
> >A question,
> >
> >In many countries death threat and instigation of murdering a person
> >is against the criminal laws. Is it not the same in US and if, why
> >have they not arrested and questioned Robertson?
> >
> >
>
>It's tempting to reply to the effect that he's a supporter of Bush and
>the neocon agenda, but that's irrelevent.
>
>I've read the quotes, and I've never liked Robertson.  That said, he
>never made a threat agains Chavez.  He never asked any of his followers
>to kill the man.  He offered his unsolicited opinion that the CIA should
>assasinate him.
>
>Suggesting that a government agency should kill a foreign leader may be
>stupid, mean, immoral, and a number of other things, but it's not
>illegal to offer a mean, stupid, and immoral opinion.
>
>If he were funding an undercover operation to kill someone - anyone -
>then he could be arrested under any number of laws.  But we're very
>short on evidence that's the case, and long on rhetoric about his
>hypocritic nature.
>
>I'm not trying to support the man, just trying to inject a little reason
>back into the discussion.
>
>--- David



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Re: [Biofuel] Robertson et al VS. followers

[David Miller]

Hakan Falk wrote:

>Robert,
>
>A question,
>
>In many countries death threat and instigation of murdering a person
>is against the criminal laws. Is it not the same in US and if, why
>have they not arrested and questioned Robertson?
>  
>

It's tempting to reply to the effect that he's a supporter of Bush and 
the neocon agenda, but that's irrelevent.

I've read the quotes, and I've never liked Robertson.  That said, he 
never made a threat agains Chavez.  He never asked any of his followers 
to kill the man.  He offered his unsolicited opinion that the CIA should 
assasinate him.

Suggesting that a government agency should kill a foreign leader may be 
stupid, mean, immoral, and a number of other things, but it's not 
illegal to offer a mean, stupid, and immoral opinion.

If he were funding an undercover operation to kill someone - anyone - 
then he could be arrested under any number of laws.  But we're very 
short on evidence that's the case, and long on rhetoric about his 
hypocritic nature.

I'm not trying to support the man, just trying to inject a little reason 
back into the discussion.

--- David

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Re: [Biofuel] Robertson et al VS. followers

[Robert Ingram]

Robertson will never be arrested Rummy says this is a free country and 
everyon has the right to free speeech and besides we have laws a ginst 
killing people . He failed to mention the thousands of dead American service 
men and Iraqui citizens and Robertson owns George Bush sometimes known as 
Satans Little Stooge
- Original Message - 
From: "Hakan Falk" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Friday, August 26, 2005 1:13 PM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Robertson et al VS. followers


>
> Robert,
>
> A question,
>
> In many countries death threat and instigation of murdering a person
> is against the criminal laws. Is it not the same in US and if, why
> have they not arrested and questioned Robertson?
>
> Hakan
>
> At 17:13 26/08/2005, you wrote:
>>BT wrote:
>> > Greetings fellow revolutionary alchemists!
>> >
>> > The question I have is, How do we help separate the good-hearted
>> > followers from their devious leaders?
>>
>> I've found the best thing to do is go back to the scriptures from
>>whence Christians are supposed to derive standards for their behavior.
>>   This is especially true when the argument of "you shouldn't judge
>>anyone" comes to fore.  Now, Jesus himself said this, in the second
>>part of Luke 12: 48:
>>
>> "From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; 
>> and
>>from one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked."
>>
>> Leaders, who ought to know better, are far more accountable than 
>> the
>>average person.
>
>
>
>
>
> ___
> Biofuel mailing list
> Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
> http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org
>
> Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
>
> Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 
> messages):
> http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
> 


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Re: [Biofuel] Robertson et al VS. followers

[TarynToo]

Amen Robert!

While not a christian, I've read many of the major scriptures of the 
world. While reading the Robertson thread, I was thinking how badly we 
needed to hear the "Who would Jesus hate? Who would Jesus kill?" 
message.

Your message is so on target. The most important teaching we receive, 
not just from Jesus, but from almost all prophets is "Deeds are greater 
than words. Love the least, as you love the great. Power demands 
responsibility." If we are to follow their teachings, we must not tend 
the church, we must tend our hearts and minds, and the whole world.

All it takes to distinguish the truly good from the hypocrite, is to 
attend to their actions more than their words. How sad that so many of 
us are deceived by the transparent and self-serving lies of our 
political, spiritual, and commercial masters.

We are slaves, the truth will set us free.
Thank you, Taryn
ornae.com


On Aug 26, 2005, at 11:13 AM, robert luis rabello wrote:

> BT wrote:
>> Greetings fellow revolutionary alchemists!
>>
>> The question I have is, How do we help separate the good-hearted
>> followers from their devious leaders?
>
>   I've found the best thing to do is go back to the scriptures from
> whence Christians are supposed to derive standards for their behavior.
>   This is especially true when the argument of "you shouldn't judge
> anyone" comes to fore.  Now, Jesus himself said this, in the second
> part of Luke 12: 48:
>
>   "From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and
> from one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked."
>
>   Leaders, who ought to know better, are far more accountable than the
> average person.  When Jesus confronted the leaders of his day, he
> seldom had pleasant words for them for this very reason.  Here is an
> example:
>
>   "Make a tree good and its fruit will be good, or make a tree bad and
> its fruit will be bad, for a tree is recognized by its fruit.
> (There's a biofuel angle in there!)  You brood of vipers!  How can you
> who are evil say anything good?  For out of the overflow of the heart
> the mouth speaks.  The good man brings good things out of the good
> stored up in him, and the evil man brings evil things out of the evil
> stored up in him.  But I tell you that men will have to give account
> on the day of judgment for every careless word they have spoken.  For
> by your words you will be acquitted, and by your words you will be
> condemned."  (Matthew 12: 33 - 37)
>
>   So, no higher authority than Jesus Christ himself condemns reckless
> rhetoric, and we who call ourselves Christians should not soft pedal
> this kind of behavior either.  A man like Pat Robertson, who CLAIMS to
> be a Christian, should have read statements of this nature and taken
> them to heart long ago.  When I complain about this kind of problem, I
> do so because it degrades the standing of the Christian faith in the
> eyes of nonbelievers who are watching.  If I, a nobody, get upset when
> the name of God is blasphemed in this manner, shouldn't genuine
> Christian leaders roundly condemn the same behavior?  After all, this
> is what the scriptures admonish:
>
>   "Live such good lives among the pagans that, though they accuse you
> of wrongdoing, they may see your good deeds and glorify God on the day
> he visits us."  (1 Peter 2: 12)
>
>   And elsewhere:
>
>   "But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there
> WILL BE FALSE TEACHERS AMONG YOU.  (Emphasis is mine.)  They will
> secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Sovereign
> Lord who bought them--bringing swift destruction on themselves.  Many
> will follow their shameful ways and will bring the way of truth into
> disrepute.  In their greed, these teachers will exploit you with
> stories they have made up . . ."  (2 Peter 2: 1 - 3)
>
>   The fact that Pat Robertson calls himself a Christian disgusts me for
> this very reason.  He's not following the example of Jesus Christ, so
> by his actions, he denies Christ.  If he's impulsive and can't control
> himself, he has no power from God.  A person who calls himself a
> Christian is one who should know God very well.  Therefore:
>
>   "We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands.  The
> man who says, 'I know him', but does not do what he commands is a liar
> and the truth is not in him.  But if anyone obeys his word, God's love
> is truly made complete in him.  This is how we know we are in him:
> Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did."  (1 John 2: 3 - 
> 6)
>
>   So then, if we examine what Jesus did, we will find a man who never
> sought harm for anyone else.  He was a man who lived by high principle
> and spoke very carefully.  He did not advocate violence, he did not
> stir up a mob to overthrow the Romans, he did not seek political power
> or financial gain.  Therefore, if you see someone who claims to be a
> Christian doing these thing

Re: [Biofuel] DSE web site

[Chris Lloyd]

> Do you mean John Nicholson's Biopower stuff Chris? <

Hi Keith, No idea I just caught part of a news item while channel
changing. The reporter was telling about this chap who collected all the
old cooking oil in his area, mixed it with an additive (some sort of
catalyst) then left it to settle. Skimmed off the clean stuff and used
it. It was seeing that news clip that made me join this list.
Chris  



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Re: [Biofuel] Robertson et al VS. followers

[robert luis rabello]

Hakan Falk wrote:

> Robert,
> 
> A question,
> 
> In many countries death threat and instigation of murdering a person
> is against the criminal laws. Is it not the same in US and if, why
> have they not arrested and questioned Robertson?


At the very least, such a threat would cross the threshold of 
assault, provided that Mr. Robertson had the means at his disposal to 
carry out his intention.  Even though his followers are legion, he 
really LACKS the power to do anything more than influence his minions 
to send money, or vote a certain way.  Therefore the question is this: 
  "Who will press charges under American law?"

Many of us over here consider Pat Robertson and other "evangelists" 
of his ilk little more than buffoons not worthy of serious 
consideration.  (He could probably plead insanity to any such charge 
anyway and list a mountain of evidence in support of his claim.)  In 
that light, it's simply not worth taxpayer money to bother.


robert luis rabello
"The Edge of Justice"
Adventure for Your Mind
http://www.newadventure.ca

Ranger Supercharger Project Page
http://www.members.shaw.ca/rabello/



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Re: [Biofuel] How to make ehtanol, second try.......

[Manick Harris]

Hi,
I sent a mail showing how to make ethanol from molasses but it bounced from hotmail mailbox. Email me again when the mailbox is not full. The email is 2 bitmaps with diagrams and method of manufacture composed from MS paint.Michael Redler <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:




"Hello there! This is the second time I post this question, since nobody responded to the first time, please advice!"
 
(some) links to Books, equipment, videos
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_library/ethanol_manual/manual1-2.html

http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_library/ethanol_motherearth/meCh9.html
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_library/ethanol_manual/manual14.html
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_library/ethanol_sawdust.html
http://www.amphora-society.com/
http://www.gin-vodka.com/
http://buffalo-creek-press.com/
http://www.moonshine-still.com/page2.htm
http://www.homedistiller.org/
I haven't thoroughly researched the last four sites but, at a glance they looked fine. The Amphora Society is mentioned in various distillers discussion groups and has not received any negative comments to my knowledge.
Good luck!
Mike___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/__Do You Yahoo!?Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ___
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Re: [Biofuel] Removing water from WVO

[Manzo, Emil]

Thanks Kieth. You know how newbies get so enthusiastic digesting
information at lightning speed and missing a lot? After reading what
Dave states and from the other links, the polymer will work for free
water that has separated but not for water that is combined with the
impurities left from incomplete processing. It is becoming clear to me
that accurate testing and processing of your WVO will save time, money
and yields a better product. My old IDI lister-types will probably be OK
on the filtered and settled WVO straight but not my other DI engines.
More to learn.   

Regards,
Emil

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Keith Addison
Sent: Thursday, August 25, 2005 11:47 PM
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Removing water from WVO

Have a look at what Dale says about it here:

Removing the water
http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_make.html#water

Best wishes

Keith


>Emil
>
>I was thinking about something like that a few months ago but stayed 
>away from it because I felt that this forum would have covered it 
>already if it was worth doing.
>The minds here are great and that product is not new.
>I guess I will join you in venturing into that area.
>Thanks for getting my mental juices going again in that area.'
>Good Luck
>Roy
>
>"Manzo, Emil" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>Greetings. Has anyone tried using an absorptive polymer to remove 
>water from WVO? It is a cheap product that is used in sandy soils to 
>increase water retention for plants. It is also used in products 
>that remove water from the bottom of fuel tanks at gas stations. I 
>think one brand is called "water sock". The WVO could be pumped 
>through a vessel containing the crystals as it was being filtered. 
>The crystals expand with water and turn to "jello" then they can be 
>dried out in the sun and reused. There is a similar product used in 
>diapers but that is starch based and wouldn't work as well. If it 
>works, we might save time and energy removing water. Am I making 
>sense to anyone?
>
>
>
>
>
>Regards,
>
>Emil
>
>
>
>
>
>Roy Washbish


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Re: [Biofuel] switchable permanent magnets? was Magnetic boots

[Alt.EnergyNetwork]

OK thanks Cris.
That still would'nt be practical for those NASA boots though would it. Adding 
electromagnets and a power supply 
would be bulky and inefficient at the very least.
Just thinking out loud here but couldn't an electromagnet be combined with a 
"so called magnet motor" to
help the magnets get by the stick points? 
regards
tallex



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---Original Message---
> From: Chris Lloyd <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Subject: Re: [Biofuel] switchable permanent magnets? was Magnetic boots
> Sent: 25 Aug '05 11:51
> 
>  >How do you turn off a permanent magnet electronically? <
>  
>  Hi Tallex, permanent magnets are laid in the track and used by the
>  signalling system on British Rail. (AWS) To turn off the permanent
>  magnet the electro magnet which lays along side the permanent is
>  activated and swamps the magnetic field. As you rightly say it does not
>  turn off the field, just cancels it out.   Chris.
>  
>  
>  
>  
>  
>  

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/next_generation_grid

 news  resources  forums

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/tomorrow-energy



Alternative Energy Politics

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>  
>  
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---Original Message---

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Re: [Biofuel] temperate oilseed tree?

[Keith Addison]

Hi Peter

>Hi Keith ;
>
> > You can get seeds from ECHO. Try jojoba too.
>
>I just ordered 5,000 moringa seeds. US$150 including
>shipping. At the post office now.  I'll post info on
>germination rate later.

Please do.

Good luck!

Best

Keith



>Best Regards,
>
>Peter G.
>Thailand
>
>
>Dear Sirs
>
>Your ordered Moringa seeds are despatched by Speed
>post
>
>No. EE749036407IN DATED 20 AUGUST, 2005
>
>TOTAL NO. OF SEEDS ARE 5000 , 500 SEEDS IN EACH
>PACKET. TOTAL NO. OF PACKETS 10
>
>REGARDS
>
>
>PARITOSH GULATI
>PROJECT MANAGER
>ASIAN POWER CYCLOPES
>ROCHIPURA
>MAJRA
>DEHRADUN-248171 INDIA
>PHONE :- 91-135-2620488
>FAX :- 91-135-2620961
>MOBILE :- 9897226101
>EMAIL:-  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>  [EMAIL PROTECTED]


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Re: [Biofuel] Alternative to Toxic Mold Compounds?

[Manzo, Emil]

Hi Mike. I was restoring an old car once
and made a part I couldn’t afford to purchase. Try looking up a company
called “Castolite” (The Castolite
Company 4915 Dean St. Woodstock, IL 60098 (815) 338-4670 (815) 338-4671) they have all kinds of mold making
materials. Some are durable enough for soft metal pouring. I have made molds
out of plaster with “lost-wax” to do a one-off of brass. There are
lots of alternatives. Let us know what you find!

 



Regards,

Emil



-Original Message-
From:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Michael Redler
Sent: Friday, August 26, 2005
10:12 AM
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Subject: [Biofuel] Alternative to
Toxic Mold Compounds?

 



I know that this may fall outside the scope of our
usual discussions but, I thought there might be knowledge to gain here.

In the process of building a prototype solar tracker,
I'm stuck with a dilemma. Some of the parts I make need to be molded. So, I'm
making silicone based molds and casting the parts with two-part polyurethane.

According to the MSDS sheets, the catalyst for the
silicone mold is a tin-based compound and very toxic. The reason I started in
this direction is that it's readily available, widely used and proven to
work. When finished, I can cast parts in almost any material. I can even pour
low melt temperature metals.

I would like to make/use a casting material from
something which is safer to me and the environment and still be durable and
weather-proof. I was making pasta the other night and found (the next morning)
a couple of pieces of spaghetti, dried and conforming to the shape of the
colander. It made me wonder if there is a casting materiel made of
carbohydrates and /or starch that I can use with a latex rubber mold.

Any thoughts?

Mike 








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Re: [Biofuel] Robertson et al VS. followers

[Robert Ingram]

The other night on CNN Christpher Hitchens called Pat Robertson a babbling 
idiot and proof of unintelligent design
- Original Message - 
From: "robert luis rabello" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Friday, August 26, 2005 11:13 AM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Robertson et al VS. followers


> BT wrote:
>> Greetings fellow revolutionary alchemists!
>>
>> The question I have is, How do we help separate the good-hearted
>> followers from their devious leaders?
>
> I've found the best thing to do is go back to the scriptures from
> whence Christians are supposed to derive standards for their behavior.
>  This is especially true when the argument of "you shouldn't judge
> anyone" comes to fore.  Now, Jesus himself said this, in the second
> part of Luke 12: 48:
>
> "From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and
> from one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked."
>
> Leaders, who ought to know better, are far more accountable than the
> average person.  When Jesus confronted the leaders of his day, he
> seldom had pleasant words for them for this very reason.  Here is an
> example:
>
> "Make a tree good and its fruit will be good, or make a tree bad and
> its fruit will be bad, for a tree is recognized by its fruit.
> (There's a biofuel angle in there!)  You brood of vipers!  How can you
> who are evil say anything good?  For out of the overflow of the heart
> the mouth speaks.  The good man brings good things out of the good
> stored up in him, and the evil man brings evil things out of the evil
> stored up in him.  But I tell you that men will have to give account
> on the day of judgment for every careless word they have spoken.  For
> by your words you will be acquitted, and by your words you will be
> condemned."  (Matthew 12: 33 - 37)
>
> So, no higher authority than Jesus Christ himself condemns reckless
> rhetoric, and we who call ourselves Christians should not soft pedal
> this kind of behavior either.  A man like Pat Robertson, who CLAIMS to
> be a Christian, should have read statements of this nature and taken
> them to heart long ago.  When I complain about this kind of problem, I
> do so because it degrades the standing of the Christian faith in the
> eyes of nonbelievers who are watching.  If I, a nobody, get upset when
> the name of God is blasphemed in this manner, shouldn't genuine
> Christian leaders roundly condemn the same behavior?  After all, this
> is what the scriptures admonish:
>
> "Live such good lives among the pagans that, though they accuse you
> of wrongdoing, they may see your good deeds and glorify God on the day
> he visits us."  (1 Peter 2: 12)
>
> And elsewhere:
>
> "But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there
> WILL BE FALSE TEACHERS AMONG YOU.  (Emphasis is mine.)  They will
> secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Sovereign
> Lord who bought them--bringing swift destruction on themselves.  Many
> will follow their shameful ways and will bring the way of truth into
> disrepute.  In their greed, these teachers will exploit you with
> stories they have made up . . ."  (2 Peter 2: 1 - 3)
>
> The fact that Pat Robertson calls himself a Christian disgusts me for
> this very reason.  He's not following the example of Jesus Christ, so
> by his actions, he denies Christ.  If he's impulsive and can't control
> himself, he has no power from God.  A person who calls himself a
> Christian is one who should know God very well.  Therefore:
>
> "We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands.  The
> man who says, 'I know him', but does not do what he commands is a liar
> and the truth is not in him.  But if anyone obeys his word, God's love
> is truly made complete in him.  This is how we know we are in him:
> Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did."  (1 John 2: 3 - 6)
>
> So then, if we examine what Jesus did, we will find a man who never
> sought harm for anyone else.  He was a man who lived by high principle
> and spoke very carefully.  He did not advocate violence, he did not
> stir up a mob to overthrow the Romans, he did not seek political power
> or financial gain.  Therefore, if you see someone who claims to be a
> Christian doing these things, you can KNOW that he's a liar.  Further
> on, you can read this:
>
> "Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no
> murderer has eternal life in him."  (1 John 3: 15)
>
> Now, I know that these faux Christians will say "Those verses only
> apply to your Christian brother," because that's what they're
> programmed to say by the false teachers they follow.  But the
> principles that Christians should follow transcend this worldly
> attitude.  Once again, here's what Jesus actually taught:
>
> "You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor and hate your
> enemy.  But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who
> persecute you that you may be sons of your Father in heaven.  He
> causes his sun to ri

Re: [Biofuel] Robertson et al VS. followers

[Ken Provost]

--- Hakan Falk <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> In many countries death threat and instigation of
> murdering a person is against the criminal laws. 
> Is it not the same in US and if, why have they not
> arrested and questioned Robertson?
> 


Because he is the darling of the far right "Christian
fundamentalists", even tho they pretend to distance
themselves from him every time he says something
outrageous, like feminists being Satanists, or the
need to blow up the State Dept. with a nuclear
device. That last one would get any left-winger
tossed into Guantanamo till they rotted!   

-K




Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page 
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs 
 

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Re: [Biofuel] Robertson et al VS. followers

[Hakan Falk]

Robert,

A question,

In many countries death threat and instigation of murdering a person
is against the criminal laws. Is it not the same in US and if, why
have they not arrested and questioned Robertson?

Hakan

At 17:13 26/08/2005, you wrote:
>BT wrote:
> > Greetings fellow revolutionary alchemists!
> >
> > The question I have is, How do we help separate the good-hearted
> > followers from their devious leaders?
>
> I've found the best thing to do is go back to the scriptures from
>whence Christians are supposed to derive standards for their behavior.
>   This is especially true when the argument of "you shouldn't judge
>anyone" comes to fore.  Now, Jesus himself said this, in the second
>part of Luke 12: 48:
>
> "From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and
>from one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked."
>
> Leaders, who ought to know better, are far more accountable than the
>average person.





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Re: [Biofuel] Cindy Sheehan: "Still Not Worth It"

[John Hayes]

> John Hayes wrote:
>>I was getting my haircut in New Haven on Tuesday and walked past a Yalie 
>>watering hole Barbara is known to frequent.
>>
>>On a telephone pole out front, there were 2 photos of injured Iraq War 
>>vets. With the photos was a sign that read something to the effect of
>>
>>"Is it in poor taste to ask why Barbara and Jenna haven't enlisted yet?"
>>
>>jh

Clif Caldwell wrote:
> As a former Air Force officer I am want to weigh in on this ... but I'd 
> rather ask where I can find a source for a cheap centrifugal pump and 
> reasonable carboy containers ...
> 
> A slightly cowed,
> Clif

Clif.

My sister and her husband are both Majors with the 48th MDG USAF and my 
wife's best friend is CO of the 514th Med Evac USA. Thank you for your 
service. I hope you didn't take my comments to be anti-service, as they 
were certainly not intended as such. However, the rallying cry of 
"support our troops" should not, and need not be a codeword for blind 
allegience to our civilian leadership.

As far a pumps go, I can't help other than to suggest Northern Tool.

http://www.northerntool.com/

Regarding carboys, check out US Plastic.

http://www.usplastic.com/

jh

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Re: [Biofuel] Robertson / Chavez story on CNN

[Keith Addison]

Hi Kirk

>Furthermore, the Scottish banker's charter became the pattern for 
>the US Federal Reserve Board, a 'diabolic' agency created and 
>nurtured by the US Senate Finance Committee, whose chairman was the 
>'Money Trust's' dependable friend, Senator A. Willis Robertson - Pat 
>Robertson's father.
>http://www.gregpalast.com/detail.cfm?artid=49&row=1

Thanks! Greg Palast does it agriculture. Worth posting it in full, below.

>Pat Roberson is a piece of work. Too bad people don't research or 
>read before they send weasels their money. Few people know the real 
>Pat Robertson.
>
>Kirk



http://www.gregpalast.com/detail.cfm?artid=49&row=1

Pat Robertson: 'I don't have to be nice to the spirit of the Antichrist'

Observer, London - reprint

Tuesday, August 23, 2005

by Greg Palast

Palast was nominated "Business Journalist of the Year" by Britain's 
Press Association for his investigation of Robertson.

It's time someone told you the truth. There is an Invisible Cord that 
can be traced from the European bankers who ordered the assassination 
of President Lincoln, to Karl Marx, to the British bankers who funded 
the Soviet KGB. They are members of the 'tightly knit cabal whose 
goal is nothing less than a new order for the human race under the 
domination of Lucifer'.

If you don't know about the Invisible Cord, then you have not read 
New World Order by Dr Marion 'Pat' Robertson. This is the same Pat 
Robertson that the Bank of Scotland recently named chairman of its 
new American consumer-bank holding company. Interestingly, the 
Scottish bank's biography of Robertson failed to mention New World 
Order, the 1991 bestseller that the Wall Street Journal, in a 
mean-spirited review, described as written by 'a paranoid pinhead 
with a deep distrust of democracy'.

There is so much the Bank of Scotland forgot to include in its 
profile of Robertson that it is left to this newspaper to describe 
this man of wealth and taste. The bank, for example, failed to note 
that he is best known to Americans as leader of the 1.2 
million-strong ultra-right political front, Christian Coalition.

It may seem a bit odd for the Bank of Scotland to choose as its 
spokesman a man who has been compared to Ian Paisley. But bank 
officials say they are not concerned with Robertson's religious 
beliefs. Nor, apparently, is Robertson concerned with theirs.

He said: 'You're supposed to be nice to Episcopalians, Presbyterians 
and Methodists ... Nonsense. I don't have to be nice to the spirit of 
the Antichrist.'

Why would the Bank of Scotland want to join up with a figure whose 
unpalatable views on women, gays, Democrats and others led one unkind 
civil liberties organisation to describe him as 'the most dangerous 
man in America'?

Someone more cynical than me might suspect that the Bank of Scotland 
covets Robertson's fiercely loyal following, the 2 million conspiracy 
wonks and charismatic evangelicals who, a former business partner 
says, 'would give him their life savings'. 'These people believe he 
has a hot-line to God.'

In an exclusive interview with The Observer, Robertson swears he will 
keep bank commerce, Christianity and the Coalition completely 
separate. But our look into the Robertson empire, including 
interviews with his former and current business associates, reveals a 
history of mixing God, gain and Republican campaign.

The combination of ministry and Mammon has provided Robertson with a 
net worth estimated at between $200m and $1 billion. He himself would 
not confirm his wealth, except to tell me that his share of the 
reported $50m start-up capital for the bank is 'just a small 
investment for me'.

Neil Volder, president of Robertson Financial and director of the new 
bank venture, emphasises that Robertson selflessly donated between 65 
and 75 per cent of his salary as head of International Family 
Entertainment. But that amounted to only a few hundred thousand 
dollars a year - pocket change for a man of Robertson's means.

There was also, says Volder, the $7m he gave to 'Operation Blessing' 
to alleviate the woes of refugees fleeing genocide in Rwanda. 
Robertson's press operation puts the sum at only $1.2m. More 
interesting is the way the Operation Blessing funds were used in 
Africa. Through an emotional fundraising drive on his TV station, 
Robertson raised several million dollars for the tax-free charitable 
trust. Operation Blessing bought planes to shuttle medical supplies 
in and out of the refugee camp in Goma, Congo (then Zaire).

But investigative reporter Bill Sizemore of the Virginian Pilot 
discovered that over a six-month period - except for one medical 
flight - the planes were used to haul equipment for something called 
African Development Corporation, a diamond mining operation a long 
way from Goma. African Development is owned by Pat Robertson.

Did Robertson know about the diversion of the relief planes? 
According to pilots' records, he actually flew on one plane ferrying 
eq

Re: [Biofuel] DSE web site

[Keith Addison]

>I have seen something similar used in England, after adding and 
>shaking the mixture has to stand for about a week. ÝChris.

Do you mean John Nicholson's Biopower stuff Chris? Just add a magic 
solvent, 30%, or was it 3%, or was it only a spoonful? Please see:

http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/msg46086.html
[Biofuel] Biopower - was Re: On-farm biodiesel or ethanol

Best wishes

Keith


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Re: [Biofuel] Apartment dwellers - was Re: (no subject)

[John Hayes]

In the US, fuel jugs are color-coded - red for gas, yellow for diesel 
and if, I remember correctly, blue for kerosene.

Of course, in the vast majority of cases, the same polymer is used for 
all three so you can certainly substitute one for another safetywise. As 
to whether dispensing locations (eg gas stations/distributers) will give 
you a hard time about using the wrong color, I can't comment.

I've had good luck finding yellow jugs locally at Home Depot. Yeah, it's 
big box retail, but at least it isn't Walmart.

If you want to look online, try searching froogle.google.com using the 
phrase diesel can or blitz jug


Good luck!

jh



Mike Weaver wrote:
> Dunno on the cans but some places won't let you put Diesel in a gas can.
> 
>>
>>>I'm pretty new here. Hello all:
>>>
>>>Question:
>>>
>>>1. Is there a requirement to use a red gas can for biofuel (yellow for
>>>diesel)?
>>>   
>>>
>>
>>Never heard of it, but I guess it depends where you are.


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Re: [Biofuel] Alternative to Toxic Mold Compounds?

[Ecogenics3]

yes you can use dental impression  compound called alginate it makes 
perfect molds and ive used it  extensivelyh in making latex molds for 
fiberglass parts..  its relatively cheap absolutly safe and makes perfect 
impressions you can get it at any dental supply houses youll love 
it but you can onml;y make a few copies  and if you dont 
let it dry out you can make quite a few... 
marc
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Re: [Biofuel] New Biodegradable Polymers

[Greg and April]

I wonder what they would get if they tried it with BioDiesel?


Greg H.

- Original Message - 
From: "Keith Addison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Wednesday, August 24, 2005 12:47
Subject: [Biofuel] New Biodegradable Polymers


> STORY LEAD:
> New Citric Acid-Based Polymers for Agricultural Applications
> ___
>
> ARS News Service
> Agricultural Research Service, USDA
> Sharon Durham, (301) 504-1611, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> August 24, 2005
> --View this report online, plus any included photos or other images,
> at www.ars.usda.gov/is/pr
> ___
>
> A biodiesel fuel byproduct called glycerol and an agricultural
> commodity called citric acid can be chemically combined to produce
> biodegradable polymers that could be used in produce packaging and
> other products, according to Agricultural Research Service scientists.
>
> Justin Barone, a chemist at the ARS Environmental Quality Laboratory
> in Beltsville, Md., made the discovery while studying processes for
> improving the effectiveness of insecticides that contain citric acid
> as an active ingredient. Citric acid washes away very quickly in the
> environment, limiting its effectiveness.
>
> Barone found that molecules containing hydrogen and oxygen--such as
> glycerol, sorbitol or polyethylene glycol--reacted with citric acid
> to produce polymers with citric acid groups in them. The materials
> formed are biodegradable polyesters. Further study showed that the
> viscosity of the material can range from the consistency of paint to
> a slow-to-dissolve, glasslike product, depending on how the chemical
> reaction takes place.
>
> The new biodegradable polymers may provide the biodiesel industry
> with a new use for glycerol, which is now disposed of after the
> biodiesel is made. In addition, citric acid is used in the food
> industry as a retardant to browning in cut fruits and vegetables. The
> new citric acid-based polyesters may prove useful as a packaging
> material. Studies are under way to determine whether the new polymers
> would work as well as pure citric acid in these applications.
>
> ARS is the U.S. Department of Agriculture's chief scientific research
agency.
>
> ___
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>
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>
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messages):
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>
>


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Re: [Biofuel] (no subject)

[Greg and April]

Use the Yellow can, for BioDiesel.

The reason for the color difference of the can, is so someone will not
mistake it for gasoline ( red ) or kerosene ( blue ).I know, you would
check, but, it doesn't mean someone else will.

Greg H.


- Original Message - 
From: "Scott Yancey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Thursday, August 25, 2005 14:21
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] (no subject)


> I'm pretty new here. Hello all:
>
> Question:
>
> 1. Is there a requirement to use a red gas can for biofuel (yellow for
> diesel)?
>
> 2. How does an apartment dweller create fuel in his or her small space?
>
> Scott
>


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Re: [Biofuel] Alternative to Toxic Mold Compounds?

[Greg and April]

Why use synthetic molds?
 
Why not use classic greensand or plaster 
molds?    It's something that highschool kids can 
do.
 
Greg H.
 

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  Michael Redler 
  
  To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org 
  
  Sent: Friday, August 26, 2005 8:11
  Subject: [Biofuel] Alternative to Toxic 
  Mold Compounds?
  
  
  I know that this may fall outside the scope of our usual discussions but, I 
  thought there might be knowledge to gain here.
  In the process of building a prototype solar tracker, I'm stuck with a 
  dilemma. Some of the parts I make need to be molded. So, I'm making silicone 
  based molds and casting the parts with two-part polyurethane.
  According to the MSDS sheets, the catalyst for the silicone mold is a 
  tin-based compound and very toxic. The reason I started in this 
  direction is that it's readily available, widely used and proven to work. 
  When finished, I can cast parts in almost any material. I can even pour low 
  melt temperature metals.
  I would like to make/use a casting material from something which is 
  safer to me and the environment and still be durable and weather-proof. I was 
  making pasta the other night and found (the next morning) a couple of pieces 
  of spaghetti, dried and conforming to the shape of the colander. It made me 
  wonder if there is a casting materiel made of carbohydrates and /or starch 
  that I can use with a latex rubber mold.
  Any thoughts?
  Mike 
  
  

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Re: [Biofuel] Alternative to Toxic Mold Compounds?

[Peter Childers]

How about using JB Weld. It has a high heat resistance and is impervious to 
oils and chemicals etc. Not sure how big your molds are but you may be able 
to buy direct from JB Weld in larger quantities. It is a two part epoxy that 
I have used to mold repair plastic items. It gravity flows and sets into a 
shapeable and sandable mold.
Peter
- Original Message - 
From: "Mike Weaver" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Friday, August 26, 2005 10:23 AM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Alternative to Toxic Mold Compounds?


> What about milling Acrylic?
>
> Michael Redler wrote:
>
>> I know that this may fall outside the scope of our usual discussions
>> but, I thought there might be knowledge to gain here.
>>
>> In the process of building a prototype solar tracker, I'm stuck with a
>> dilemma. Some of the parts I make need to be molded. So, I'm making
>> silicone based molds and casting the parts with two-part polyurethane.
>>
>> According to the MSDS sheets, the catalyst for the silicone mold is a
>> tin-based compound and very toxic. The reason I started in this
>> direction is that it's readily available, widely used and proven to
>> work. When finished, I can cast parts in almost any material. I can
>> even pour low melt temperature metals.
>>
>> I would like to make/use a casting material from something which is
>> safer to me and the environment and still be durable and
>> weather-proof. I was making pasta the other night and found (the next
>> morning) a couple of pieces of spaghetti, dried and conforming to the
>> shape of the colander. It made me wonder if there is a casting
>> materiel made of carbohydrates and /or starch that I can use with a
>> latex rubber mold.
>>
>> Any thoughts?
>>
>> Mike
>>
>>
>>
>>___
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>>messages):
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>>
>>
>
>
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Re: [Biofuel] Robertson et al VS. followers

[robert luis rabello]

BT wrote:
> Greetings fellow revolutionary alchemists!
> 
> The question I have is, How do we help separate the good-hearted 
> followers from their devious leaders?

I've found the best thing to do is go back to the scriptures from 
whence Christians are supposed to derive standards for their behavior. 
  This is especially true when the argument of "you shouldn't judge 
anyone" comes to fore.  Now, Jesus himself said this, in the second 
part of Luke 12: 48:

"From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and 
from one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked."

Leaders, who ought to know better, are far more accountable than the 
average person.  When Jesus confronted the leaders of his day, he 
seldom had pleasant words for them for this very reason.  Here is an 
example:

"Make a tree good and its fruit will be good, or make a tree bad and 
its fruit will be bad, for a tree is recognized by its fruit. 
(There's a biofuel angle in there!)  You brood of vipers!  How can you 
who are evil say anything good?  For out of the overflow of the heart 
the mouth speaks.  The good man brings good things out of the good 
stored up in him, and the evil man brings evil things out of the evil 
stored up in him.  But I tell you that men will have to give account 
on the day of judgment for every careless word they have spoken.  For 
by your words you will be acquitted, and by your words you will be 
condemned."  (Matthew 12: 33 - 37)

So, no higher authority than Jesus Christ himself condemns reckless 
rhetoric, and we who call ourselves Christians should not soft pedal 
this kind of behavior either.  A man like Pat Robertson, who CLAIMS to 
be a Christian, should have read statements of this nature and taken 
them to heart long ago.  When I complain about this kind of problem, I 
do so because it degrades the standing of the Christian faith in the 
eyes of nonbelievers who are watching.  If I, a nobody, get upset when 
the name of God is blasphemed in this manner, shouldn't genuine 
Christian leaders roundly condemn the same behavior?  After all, this 
is what the scriptures admonish:

"Live such good lives among the pagans that, though they accuse you 
of wrongdoing, they may see your good deeds and glorify God on the day 
he visits us."  (1 Peter 2: 12)

And elsewhere:

"But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there 
WILL BE FALSE TEACHERS AMONG YOU.  (Emphasis is mine.)  They will 
secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Sovereign 
Lord who bought them--bringing swift destruction on themselves.  Many 
will follow their shameful ways and will bring the way of truth into 
disrepute.  In their greed, these teachers will exploit you with 
stories they have made up . . ."  (2 Peter 2: 1 - 3)

The fact that Pat Robertson calls himself a Christian disgusts me for 
this very reason.  He's not following the example of Jesus Christ, so 
by his actions, he denies Christ.  If he's impulsive and can't control 
himself, he has no power from God.  A person who calls himself a 
Christian is one who should know God very well.  Therefore:

"We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands.  The 
man who says, 'I know him', but does not do what he commands is a liar 
and the truth is not in him.  But if anyone obeys his word, God's love 
is truly made complete in him.  This is how we know we are in him: 
Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did."  (1 John 2: 3 - 6)

So then, if we examine what Jesus did, we will find a man who never 
sought harm for anyone else.  He was a man who lived by high principle 
and spoke very carefully.  He did not advocate violence, he did not 
stir up a mob to overthrow the Romans, he did not seek political power 
or financial gain.  Therefore, if you see someone who claims to be a 
Christian doing these things, you can KNOW that he's a liar.  Further 
on, you can read this:

"Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no 
murderer has eternal life in him."  (1 John 3: 15)

Now, I know that these faux Christians will say "Those verses only 
apply to your Christian brother," because that's what they're 
programmed to say by the false teachers they follow.  But the 
principles that Christians should follow transcend this worldly 
attitude.  Once again, here's what Jesus actually taught:

"You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor and hate your 
enemy.  But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who 
persecute you that you may be sons of your Father in heaven.  He 
causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the 
righteous and the unrighteous.  If you love those who love you, what 
reward will you get?  Are not even the tax collectors doing that?  And 
if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? 
  Do not even the

Re: [Biofuel] Alternative to Toxic Mold Compounds?

[Mike Weaver]

What about milling Acrylic?

Michael Redler wrote:

> I know that this may fall outside the scope of our usual discussions 
> but, I thought there might be knowledge to gain here.
>
> In the process of building a prototype solar tracker, I'm stuck with a 
> dilemma. Some of the parts I make need to be molded. So, I'm making 
> silicone based molds and casting the parts with two-part polyurethane.
>
> According to the MSDS sheets, the catalyst for the silicone mold is a 
> tin-based compound and very toxic. The reason I started in this 
> direction is that it's readily available, widely used and proven to 
> work. When finished, I can cast parts in almost any material. I can 
> even pour low melt temperature metals.
>
> I would like to make/use a casting material from something which is 
> safer to me and the environment and still be durable and 
> weather-proof. I was making pasta the other night and found (the next 
> morning) a couple of pieces of spaghetti, dried and conforming to the 
> shape of the colander. It made me wonder if there is a casting 
> materiel made of carbohydrates and /or starch that I can use with a 
> latex rubber mold.
>
> Any thoughts?
>
> Mike 
>
>
>
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>  
>


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[Biofuel] Alternative to Toxic Mold Compounds?

[Michael Redler]

I know that this may fall outside the scope of our usual discussions but, I thought there might be knowledge to gain here.
In the process of building a prototype solar tracker, I'm stuck with a dilemma. Some of the parts I make need to be molded. So, I'm making silicone based molds and casting the parts with two-part polyurethane.
According to the MSDS sheets, the catalyst for the silicone mold is a tin-based compound and very toxic. The reason I started in this direction is that it's readily available, widely used and proven to work. When finished, I can cast parts in almost any material. I can even pour low melt temperature metals.
I would like to make/use a casting material from something which is safer to me and the environment and still be durable and weather-proof. I was making pasta the other night and found (the next morning) a couple of pieces of spaghetti, dried and conforming to the shape of the colander. It made me wonder if there is a casting materiel made of carbohydrates and /or starch that I can use with a latex rubber mold.
Any thoughts?
Mike ___
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Re: [Biofuel] Robertson / Chavez story on CNN

[Kirk McLoren]

Furthermore, the Scottish banker's charter became the pattern for the US Federal Reserve Board, a 'diabolic' agency created and nurtured by the US Senate Finance Committee, whose chairman was the 'Money Trust's' dependable friend, Senator A. Willis Robertson - Pat Robertson's father. 
http://www.gregpalast.com/detail.cfm?artid=49&row=1
 
Pat Roberson is a piece of work. Too bad people don't research or read before they send weasels their money. Few people know the real Pat Robertson.
 
Kirk
Mike Weaver <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Hakan,not to bust your chops, but don't you think your remark was a little offensive? I mean apes are pretty smartand generally live in a fairly harmonious family unit. I think perhaps you were thinking weasel or ferret ;-)There's no call to go insulting apes like that...-MikeHakan Falk wrote:>Mike,>>Most of the really good Spanish Dr.s, get their education and >especially practices in US. Some very popular specialities are mental >and beauty treatments. Sweden is well known for replacement surgery, >but they have not yet tried to replace human brains with the ones >from apes, as far as I know. Maybe Robertson is an experiment, who >knows? We would probably only heard about it, if it was regarded as >successful.>>How can a representative of a religious fraction
 recommend >assassination as a solution? Robertson is unbelievable stupid and I >wonder who his God is and who are his followers?>>It is really amazing.>>Hakan>>>At 01:53 24/08/2005, you wrote:> >>>I thought for sure I had seen Robertson being interviewed recently >>on FOX. If my memory serves me correctly, he had only been out of a >>facility for the mental challenged for 48 hours. In Madrid, yes >>that's where it was, Spain!!! But then, most of the Dr.'s in this >>particular hospital were from Denmark, or Sweden, or Norway, >>or...oh, who cares. Strange combination, and as we can all clearly >>see, not at all effective! Or.maybe he's just a nutcase.BTWnone of the above should, in any way, be taken literally. It >>is all a friendly jab at Hakan : )To say it more clearly,
 everything written above is "El Crapo".>>Man I hope that's not really spanish for something. : (On 8/23/05, Hakan Falk >><[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:What mental hospital let this Robertson out too early? Does US not>>have the money to treat their "basket cases" in proper facilities?Hakan>>At 13:26 23/08/2005, you wrote:>> >http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/08/23/robertson.chavez/>>> >>>___>>Biofuel mailing list>>Biofuel@sustainablelists.org>>http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:>>http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):>>http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -->>Mike K>>AntiFossil>>MN, USA"Behind the ostensible government sits>>enthroned an invisible government owing no>>allegiance and acknowledging no>>responsibility to the people. To destroy this>>invisible government, to befoul the unholy>>alliance between corrupt business and>>corrupt politics is the first task of the>>statesmen of today.">>President Theodore Roosevelt - 1906Give me the money that has been spent in>>war and I will clothe every man, woman,
 and>>child in an attire of which kings and queens>>will be proud. I will build a schoolhouse in>>every valley over the whole earth. I will crown>>every hillside with a place of worship>>consecrated to peace:>>Charles SumnerQuotes from>>" Information Clearing House ">>___>>Biofuel mailing list>>Biofuel@sustainablelists.org>>http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:>>http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):>>http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/>> >>___>Biofuel mailing
 list>Biofuel@sustainablelists.org>http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org>>Biofuel at Journey to Forever:>http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html>>Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):>http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/> >___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
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Re: [Biofuel] Robertson et al VS. followers

[Mike Weaver]

I once sent them (Oral Roberts?) a brick.  They were asking for 25.00 to 
buy a brick, so I sent them a letter saying I could get a much better 
price and did they want more.
Cost me something like 4.00 for 4th class postage but it was worth it.

Manick Harris wrote:

> Hi everybody,
> I do not know about Robertson, but thereare many so-called 
> 'evangelists' whose sole purpose is to collect money from naive 
> believers. My late mother once donated !R 200 to a well known TV 
> evangelist.and received a hasty letter back from the guy stating that 
> it wasn't enough even for one brick. God, what kind of bricks do you 
> use anyway. The Indian evangelists often use resurrection trick to con 
> target groups into parting with large amounts of cash. When one such 
> fellow who was claiming how he resurrected a corpse noticed how I was 
> frowning he turned me in anger. With these guys no public accounts are 
> kept at all and everything goes into their pocket. One fellow here was 
> exorcising a young girl  with her dress up and sitting on him, not 
> knowing a police party was watching him...I think anyone who collects 
> money should be accountable to prevent fraud of the divine kind. LOL
>
> */BT <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>/* wrote:
>
> Greetings fellow revolutionary alchemists!
>
> The question I have is, How do we help separate the good-hearted
> followers from their devious leaders?
>
> For example:
> I often forward news and interesting articles (much of which I
> find on this list, thanks to you all)  to a few friends and
> family. I never get any responses. One of my friends I know is a
> 700 Club 'member' and his church preaches along the same political
> lines. After forwarding the news about Robertson's comments, I
> received this reply from my friend:
> 
> "He is a passionate man who speaks from his heart and who has said
> some stupid stuff in the past and probably will say some stupid
> things in the future but he apologized and that's good in my
> book.  Heck, it's alot more than most political or public figures
> would do."
>  
>
> "Is it right to call for assassination? No, and I apologize for
> that statement," Robertson said. "I spoke in frustration that we
> should accommodate the man who thinks the U.S. is out to kill him."
>
> http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/08/24/robertson.chavez/index.html
>
> 
> To which I responded with a more complete quote from Robertson's
> "apology", a page of links relating to Robertson's money-making
> operations in Africa (included at the bottom of this long email,
> in case anyone is interested)  and a comment:
>
> "Obviously Pat Robertson does not have any business interests in
> common with Hugo Chavez, otherwise Robertson would be defending
> Chavez instead of condemning him."
>
> My friend's reply:
> --
>
> "I heard from a story on NPR the other day regarding a current
> State Governor that when in the political spotlight and "riding a
> white horse" the dirt shows up easier.  Too many resources have
> been wasted on putting Pat Roberts[on] on public "trial". 
> Everyone knows that he is a religous man but the primary word in
> that description is "man".  He is not God.  Man makes mistakes. 
> When shadey politicians make mistakes it's OK because nobody
> expects them to be perfect.  I wish the world would focus on
> solutions to problems instead of dwelling on the faults of man.
>  
> Spread that comment around the Internet and see where it gets you."
> --
>
> Ok, so it's spreading. :-)
>
> My friend is no fool. He is perfectly capable of thinking
> logically and rationally. But from this irrational reply, I think
> we have clearly reached the point where my friend is not really
> defending Robertson but is actually defending himself since he
> sees himself associated with Robertson.
>
> If anyone has ever had the opportunity to watch a 700 Club
> broadcast, you will notice how softly and pleasantly they speak
> about helping the poor around the world and healing people. They
> give the impression of being 'good Christians' and that is how
> they get the cash from their listeners, who see their donation as
> doing something good to help others.
>
> So I can see how it would be easy to get sucked into their influence.
>
> For us on the 'outside', it is easy to view Robertson as a crazy
> demagogue on one hand and an astute, greedy business man on the other.
>
> But what does it take for those on the 'inside' to look at
> Robertson (or Bush or whoever) and say, "I've been deceived. That
> is not what I support."; to separate themselves from the object of
> criticism?
>
> I think that does happen in some cases. Or maybe, in other cases
> the people haven't been deceived, but they just don't ca

Re: [Biofuel] Apartment dwellers - was Re: (no subject)

[Mike Weaver]

Dunno on the cans but some places won't let you put Diesel in a gas can.

I've made it inside - I would advise setting up a long table with a good 
fan near an open window.  Keep some water handy.  I finally decided to 
build a shed - I live in a house.

Keith Addison wrote:

>Hello Scott, welcome
>
>  
>
>>I'm pretty new here. Hello all:
>>
>>Question:
>>
>>1. Is there a requirement to use a red gas can for biofuel (yellow for
>>diesel)?
>>
>>
>
>Never heard of it, but I guess it depends where you are.
>
>  
>
>>2. How does an apartment dweller create fuel in his or her small space?
>>
>>
>
>Have a look at these:
>
>Test-batch mini-processor
>http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_processor7.html
>
>Simple 5-gallon processor
>http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_processor5.html
>
>LOTS of people use those.
>
>Best wishes
>
>Keith
>
>
>  
>
>>Scott
>>
>>- Original Message -
>>From: "Gary Shenberg" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>To: 
>>Sent: Wednesday, August 24, 2005 11:47 PM
>>Subject: Re: [Biofuel] (no subject)
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>Hey Michael
>>>
>>>Would like some help also if you have the time.  Any advice on the best
>>>way
>>>to get started?
>>>
>>>Thanks
>>>
>>>Gary
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>  
>>>
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Reply-To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] (no subject)
Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 07:37:21 -0400

Hi, I live in Seale, Alabama.

I would be happy to work with you.  I have been making biodiesel for
almost 3 years now.

I look forward to hearing from you.

Cheers!

Michael Lendzian
CINS Network Support Team
Columbus State University
CINS/Center for Commerce & Technology Room 105
706.569.3044 (help desk)

- Original Message -
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Tuesday, August 23, 2005 7:22 pm
Subject: [Biofuel] (no subject)



>I am looking for someone in Alabama, preferably Birmingham area
>that is making bio fuel that would be willing to show me the
>process and equipment used. I will also drive to TN, GA, MS, N-FL,
>if anyone is available.
>
>Thanks,
>Hunter
>
>
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>>>
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>>>
>>>  
>>>
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>
>
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Re: [Biofuel] How to make ehtanol, second try.......

[Michael Redler]

"Hello there! This is the second time I post this question, since nobody responded to the first time, please advice!"
 
(some) links to Books, equipment, videos
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_library/ethanol_manual/manual1-2.html

http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_library/ethanol_motherearth/meCh9.html
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_library/ethanol_manual/manual14.html
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_library/ethanol_sawdust.html
http://www.amphora-society.com/
http://www.gin-vodka.com/
http://buffalo-creek-press.com/
http://www.moonshine-still.com/page2.htm
http://www.homedistiller.org/
I haven't thoroughly researched the last four sites but, at a glance they looked fine. The Amphora Society is mentioned in various distillers discussion groups and has not received any negative comments to my knowledge.
Good luck!
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Re: [Biofuel] temperate oilseed tree?

[Guag Meister]

Hi Keith ;

> You can get seeds from ECHO. Try jojoba too.

I just ordered 5,000 moringa seeds. US$150 including
shipping. At the post office now.  I'll post info on
germination rate later.

Best Regards,

Peter G.
Thailand


Dear Sirs
 
Your ordered Moringa seeds are despatched by Speed
post
 
No. EE749036407IN DATED 20 AUGUST, 2005
 
TOTAL NO. OF SEEDS ARE 5000 , 500 SEEDS IN EACH
PACKET. TOTAL NO. OF PACKETS 10
 
REGARDS
 
 
PARITOSH GULATI
PROJECT MANAGER
ASIAN POWER CYCLOPES
ROCHIPURA
MAJRA
DEHRADUN-248171 INDIA
PHONE :- 91-135-2620488
FAX :- 91-135-2620961
MOBILE :- 9897226101
EMAIL:-  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
  [EMAIL PROTECTED]





Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page 
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs 
 

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[Biofuel] Apartment dwellers - was Re: (no subject)

[Keith Addison]

Hello Scott, welcome

>I'm pretty new here. Hello all:
>
>Question:
>
>1. Is there a requirement to use a red gas can for biofuel (yellow for
>diesel)?

Never heard of it, but I guess it depends where you are.

>2. How does an apartment dweller create fuel in his or her small space?

Have a look at these:

Test-batch mini-processor
http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_processor7.html

Simple 5-gallon processor
http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_processor5.html

LOTS of people use those.

Best wishes

Keith


>Scott
>
>- Original Message -
>From: "Gary Shenberg" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>To: 
>Sent: Wednesday, August 24, 2005 11:47 PM
>Subject: Re: [Biofuel] (no subject)
>
>
> > Hey Michael
> >
> > Would like some help also if you have the time.  Any advice on the best
> > way
> > to get started?
> >
> > Thanks
> >
> > Gary
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >>From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >>Reply-To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
> >>To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
> >>Subject: Re: [Biofuel] (no subject)
> >>Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 07:37:21 -0400
> >>
> >>Hi, I live in Seale, Alabama.
> >>
> >>I would be happy to work with you.  I have been making biodiesel for
> >>almost 3 years now.
> >>
> >>I look forward to hearing from you.
> >>
> >>Cheers!
> >>
> >>Michael Lendzian
> >>CINS Network Support Team
> >>Columbus State University
> >>CINS/Center for Commerce & Technology Room 105
> >>706.569.3044 (help desk)
> >>
> >>- Original Message -
> >>From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >>Date: Tuesday, August 23, 2005 7:22 pm
> >>Subject: [Biofuel] (no subject)
> >>
> >> > I am looking for someone in Alabama, preferably Birmingham area
> >> > that is making bio fuel that would be willing to show me the
> >> > process and equipment used. I will also drive to TN, GA, MS, N-FL,
> >> > if anyone is available.
> >> >
> >> > Thanks,
> >> > Hunter
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > ___
> >> > Biofuel mailing list
> >> > Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
> >> >
> >>http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.or
> >>g
> >> >
> >> > Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
> >> > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
> >> >
> >> > Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000
> >> > messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> >>___
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> >>Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
> >>http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org
> >>
> >>Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
> >>http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
> >>
> >>Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000
> >>messages):
> >>http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> > ___
> > Biofuel mailing list
> > Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
> > http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org
> >
> > Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
> > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
> >
> > Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000
> > messages):
> > http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
> >
> >
>
>___
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>
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>http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
>
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Re: [Biofuel] Thank you JtF, for continued excellence!

[Keith Addison]

Gosh... :-)

Thankyou Sean, good for you!

>In the four short months that I've been reading and
>learning from the Biofuels listserv, I have come to
>value greatly the breadth and depth of knowledge of
>its members, not to mention its moderator.  For this I
>thank you all.
>
>I just successfully completed my first test batch,
>have begun gathering bits with which to build my
>processor, and I stand quite bouyed with the promise
>of a home-brewed, non-petrol future for my beloved
>Volkswagen.
>
>Cheers to you, JtF!

And to you Sean.

>Sean Michael Dargan
>Singer/Songwriter/Biodieseler
>Madison, Wisconsin
>
>P.S.  In the interest of plumbing multiple sources for
>my new-found biodiesel obsession... er, I mean
>interest... I ordered a certain popular book and  "how
>to" video from an another BD site, just to check it
>out.  Heavens to Mergatroid!  I'm sure it's been
>covered before at *great* lengths,

Not that I recall.

>but what a
>nightmare is that video!  I gather that the chap
>behind that outfit must be VERY good at the marketing
>part, because he certainly missed the bus on the
>acting part.  And the savvy communicating part...  and
>the chemistry...  Good gracious!

That's sad to hear. If only it were good stuff, eh? :-(

Best wishes, thanks again!

Keith


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Re: [Biofuel] DSE web site

[Chris Lloyd]

I have seen something similar
used in England, after adding and shaking the mixture has to
stand for about a week.  Chris.

 

  

 








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Re: [Biofuel] Robertson et al VS. followers

[Manick Harris]

Hi everybody,
I do not know about Robertson, but thereare many so-called 'evangelists' whose sole purpose is to collect money from naive believers. My late mother once donated !R 200 to a well known TV evangelist.and received a hasty letter back from the guy stating that it wasn't enough even for one brick. God, what kind of bricks do you use anyway. The Indian evangelists often use resurrection trick to con target groups into parting with large amounts of cash. When one such fellow who was claiming how he resurrected a corpse noticed how I was frowning he turned me in anger. With these guys no public accounts are kept at all and everything goes into their pocket. One fellow here was exorcising a young girl  with her dress up and sitting on him, not knowing a police party was watching him...I think anyone who collects money should be accountable to prevent fraud of the divine kind. LOLBT <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Greetings fellow revolutionary alchemists!The question I have is, How do we help separate the good-hearted followers from their devious leaders?For example:I often forward news and interesting articles (much of which I find on this list, thanks to you all)  to a few friends and family. I never get any responses. One of my friends I know is a 700 Club 'member' and his church preaches along the same political lines. After forwarding the news about Robertson's comments, I received this reply from my friend:
"He is a passionate man who speaks from his heart and who has said some stupid stuff in the past and probably will say some stupid things in the future but he apologized and that's good in my book.  Heck, it's alot more than most political or public figures would do."
 

"Is it right to call for assassination? No, and I apologize for that statement," Robertson said. "I spoke in frustration that we should accommodate the man who thinks the U.S. is out to kill him." 
http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/08/24/robertson.chavez/index.htmlTo which I responded with a more complete quote from Robertson's "apology", a page of links relating to Robertson's money-making operations in Africa (included at the bottom of this long email, in case anyone is interested)  and a comment:
"Obviously Pat Robertson does not have any business interests in common with Hugo Chavez, otherwise Robertson would be defending Chavez instead of condemning him."
My friend's reply:--

"I heard from a story on NPR the other day regarding a current State Governor that when in the political spotlight and "riding a white horse" the dirt shows up easier.  Too many resources have been wasted on putting Pat Roberts[on] on public "trial".  Everyone knows that he is a religous man but the primary word in that description is "man".  He is not God.  Man makes mistakes.  When shadey politicians make mistakes it's OK because nobody expects them to be perfect.  I wish the world would focus on solutions to problems instead of dwelling on the faults of man.
 
Spread that comment around the Internet and see where it gets you."--

Ok, so it's spreading. :-)
My friend is no fool. He is perfectly capable of thinking logically and rationally. But from this irrational reply, I think we have clearly reached the point where my friend is not really defending Robertson but is actually defending himself since he sees himself associated with Robertson.If anyone has ever had the opportunity to watch a 700 Club broadcast, you will notice how softly and pleasantly they speak about helping the poor around the world and healing people. They give the impression of being 'good Christians' and that is how they get the cash from their listeners, who see their donation as doing something good to help others. 
So I can see how it would be easy to get sucked into their influence.
For us on the 'outside', it is easy to view Robertson as a crazy demagogue on one hand and an astute, greedy business man on the other.
But what does it take for those on the 'inside' to look at Robertson (or Bush or whoever) and say, "I've been deceived. That is not what I support."; to separate themselves from the object of criticism?
I think that does happen in some cases. Or maybe, in other cases the people haven't been deceived, but they just don't care which means that they really aren't any different than the 'leader'.
I hope I'm not delving into some social-psychology mumbo-jumbo that no-one is interested in?
BT

Obviously Pat Robertson does not have any business interests in common with Hugo Chavez, otherwise Robertson would be defending Chavez instead of condemning him.
-http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pat_Robertson#Robertson.27s_advocacy_of_assassination_of_Venezuelan_President_Hugo_Ch.C3.A1vez
On the August 24 edition of The 700 Club, Robertson attempted to clarify that he hadn't actually calling for Chávez's assassination, but that there were other ways of "taking him out", such as having special forces carry out a

Re: [Biofuel] Robertson / Chavez story on CNN

[Hakan Falk]

Mike,

What can I say? More than that you are right and I apologize.

Hakan


At 06:08 26/08/2005, you wrote:
>Hakan,
>
>not to bust your chops, but don't you think your remark was a little
>offensive?  I mean apes are pretty smart
>and generally live in a fairly harmonious family unit.  I think perhaps
>you were thinking weasel or ferret ;-)
>
>There's no call to go insulting apes like that...
>
>-Mike
>
>Hakan Falk wrote:
>
> >Mike,
> >
> >Most of the really good Spanish Dr.s, get their education and
> >especially practices in US. Some very popular specialities are mental
> >and beauty treatments. Sweden is well known for replacement surgery,
> >but they have not yet tried to replace human brains with the ones
> >from apes, as far as I know. Maybe Robertson is an experiment, who
> >knows? We would probably only heard about it, if it was regarded as
> >successful.
> >
> >How can a representative of a religious fraction recommend
> >assassination as a solution? Robertson is unbelievable stupid and I
> >wonder who his God is and who are his followers?
> >
> >It is really amazing.
> >
> >Hakan
> >
> >
> >At 01:53 24/08/2005, you wrote:
> >
> >
> >>I thought for sure I had seen Robertson being interviewed recently
> >>on FOX. If my memory serves me correctly, he had only been out of a
> >>facility for the mental challenged for 48 hours.  In Madrid, yes
> >>that's where it was, Spain!!!  But then, most of the Dr.'s in this
> >>particular hospital were from Denmark, or Sweden, or Norway,
> >>or...oh, who cares.  Strange combination, and as we can all clearly
> >>see, not at all effective!  Or.maybe he's just a nutcase.
> >>
> >>BTWnone of the above should, in any way, be taken literally.  It
> >>is all a friendly jab at Hakan : )
> >>
> >>To say it more clearly, everything written above is "El Crapo".
> >>Man I hope that's not really spanish for something.  : (
> >>
> >>On 8/23/05, Hakan Falk
> >><[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >>
> >>What mental hospital let this Robertson out too early? Does US not
> >>have the money to treat their "basket cases" in proper facilities?
> >>
> >>Hakan
> >>
> >>
> >>At 13:26 23/08/2005, you wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>>http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/08/23/robertson.chavez/
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >>___
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> >>Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
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> >>
> >>Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
> >>http://journeytoforever. 
> org/biofuel.html
> >>
> >>Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives 
> (50,000 messages):
> >>http:// 
> www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>--
> >>Mike K
> >>AntiFossil
> >>MN, USA
> >>
> >>"Behind the ostensible government sits
> >>enthroned an invisible government owing no
> >>allegiance and acknowledging no
> >>responsibility to the people. To destroy this
> >>invisible government, to befoul the unholy
> >>alliance between corrupt business and
> >>corrupt politics is the first task of the
> >>statesmen of today."
> >>President Theodore Roosevelt - 1906
> >>
> >>Give me the money that has been spent in
> >>war and I will clothe every man, woman, and
> >>child in an attire of which kings and queens
> >>will be proud. I will build a schoolhouse in
> >>every valley over the whole earth. I will crown
> >>every hillside with a place of worship
> >>consecrated to peace:
> >>Charles Sumner
> >>
> >>Quotes from
> >>" Information Clearing House "
> >>___
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> >>Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
> >>http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org
> >>
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> >>
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> (50,000 messages):
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> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >___
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> >
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> >
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> messages):
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> >
> >
>
>
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Re: [Biofuel] How to make ehtanol, second try.......

[Keith Addison]

Hello Wireless Data Transfer

>Hello there! This is the second time I post this question, since 
>nobody responded to the first time, please advice!
>I own a fairly big piece of land, in which I grow oranges, and a lot of them
>fall from the trees and rot on the ground.
>I have been told that making ethanol from those rotting oranges can be quite
>simple.
>I can also have access to an almost unlimited supply of wood chips and
>sawdust from a nearby lumber yard, from which I read Methanol can be
>obtained, or those can be turned on fire to run the furnaces to make 
>the Ethanol, right?
>The main use I will have for either the Ethanol or the Methanol is to fuel
>a small fleet of cars that I use for traveling back and forth to where the
>oranges are.The 4 cars combined consume about 50~60 gallons of fuel per
>month, each. I have found in various places on the Web that Brazil has many
>vehicles that come from the factory ready to use alcohol as the fuel, but
>nobody seems to have many details of the systems.
>I'm looking forward for any suggestions to learn how to produce my 
>own fuel at reduced costs, in order to make my operation as 
>self-sustainable as possible.
>Thank you in advance!

Not in advance, in arrears. When you came to the list you were 
pointed at the list resources, listed in the Welcome message and at 
the list homepage, it says this:

There are resources, FAQs, how-to's, full recipes and an online 
Biofuels Library at the Journey to Forever website, the premier 
source of small-scale biofuels information:

Biofuels
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Biodiesel
http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel.html

Biodiesel - "Where do I start?"
http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_make.html#start

Straight vegetable oil (SVO)
http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_svo.html

Ethanol
http://journeytoforever.org/ethanol.html

Wood gas
http://journeytoforever.org/at_woodfire.html#woodgas

Biofuels Library
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_library.html

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-

There are two complete online manuals on making your own ethanol, 
using fruit is covered, there are designs for stills, how-to's, 
forums, everything you need.

There's also a method of how to make ethanol from sawdust.

Whether methanol can or cannot be produced from wood short of a major 
industrial investment has been recently discussed at the list, you'll 
find the discussion in the list archives. It's also been discussed 
many times previously. Using wood as a heating source has also been 
discussed many times and in many ways, and there are good resources 
on it at the Journey to Forever website.

So maybe that's why you didn't get an answer the first time, you'd 
already received it and didn't notice.

Best wishes

Keith


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[Biofuel] Robertson et al VS. followers

[BT]

Greetings fellow revolutionary alchemists!

The question I have is, How do we help separate the good-hearted
followers from their devious leaders?

For example:
I often forward news and interesting articles (much of which I find on
this list, thanks to you all)  to a few friends and family. I never get
any responses. One of my friends I know is a 700 Club 'member' and his
church preaches along the same political lines. After forwarding the
news about Robertson's comments, I received this reply from my friend:

"He is a passionate man who speaks from his heart and who has said some
stupid stuff in the past and probably will say some stupid things in
the future but he apologized and that's good in my book.  Heck, it's
alot more than most political or public figures would do."
 


"Is it right to call for assassination? No, and I
apologize for that statement," Robertson said. "I spoke in frustration
that we should accommodate the man who thinks the U.S. is out to kill
him." 

http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/08/24/robertson.chavez/index.html


To which I responded with a more complete quote from Robertson's
"apology", a page of links relating to Robertson's money-making
operations in Africa (included at the bottom of this long email, in
case anyone is interested)  and a comment:
"Obviously Pat Robertson does not have any business interests in
common with Hugo Chavez, otherwise Robertson would be defending Chavez
instead of condemning him."

My friend's reply:
--


"I heard from a story on NPR the other day regarding a current
State Governor that when in the political spotlight and "riding a white
horse" the dirt shows up easier.  Too many resources have been wasted
on putting Pat Roberts[on] on public "trial".  Everyone knows that he
is a religous man but the primary word in that description is "man". 
He is not God.  Man makes mistakes.  When shadey politicians make
mistakes it's OK because nobody expects them to be perfect.  I wish the
world would focus on solutions to problems instead of dwelling on the
faults of man.
 
Spread that comment around the Internet and see where it gets you."
--


Ok, so it's spreading. :-)
My friend is no fool. He is perfectly capable of thinking logically
and rationally. But from this irrational reply, I think we have clearly
reached the point where my friend is not really defending Robertson but
is actually defending himself since he sees himself associated with
Robertson.

If anyone has ever had the opportunity to watch a 700 Club broadcast,
you will notice how softly and pleasantly they speak about helping the
poor around the world and healing people. They give the impression of
being 'good
Christians' and that is how they get the cash from their listeners, who
see their donation as doing something good to help others. 
So I can see how it would be easy to get sucked into their influence.

For us on the 'outside', it is easy to view Robertson as a crazy
demagogue on one hand and an astute, greedy business man on the other.

But what does it take for those on the 'inside' to look at Robertson
(or Bush or whoever) and say, "I've been deceived. That is not what I
support."; to separate themselves from the object of criticism?

I think that does happen in some cases. Or maybe, in other cases the
people haven't been deceived, but they just don't care which means that
they really aren't any different than the 'leader'.

I hope I'm not delving into some social-psychology mumbo-jumbo that
no-one is interested in?
BT

Obviously Pat Robertson does not have any business interests in
common with Hugo Chavez, otherwise Robertson would be defending Chavez
instead of condemning him.
-
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pat_Robertson#Robertson.27s_advocacy_of_assassination_of_Venezuelan_President_Hugo_Ch.C3.A1vez
On the August 24 edition of The 700 Club,
Robertson attempted to clarify that he hadn't actually calling for
Chávez's assassination, but that there were other ways of "taking him
out", such as having special forces carry out a kidnapping.
Robertson flatly denied using the word "assassination", despite video
tape evidence that he did.[11]
Later that day, he issued a written statement in which he said, "Is
it right to call for assassination? No, and I apologize for that
statement." However, he continued to justify his original stance and
called Chávez "a dangerous enemy to our south, controlling a huge pool
of oil that could hurt us very badly".[12]
He went on in the written statement to accuse Chávez of involvement
with terrorism: "Col. Chavez [sic] has found common cause with
terrorists such as the noted assassin Carlos the Jackal, has visited Iran
reportedly to gain access to nuclear technology, and has referred to Saddam Hussein and Fidel
Castro
as his comrades. Col. Chavez also intends to fund the violent overthrow
of democratically elected governments throughout South America,
beginning with neighboring Co

[Biofuel] Thank you JtF, for continued excellence!

[Sean Michael Dargan]

In the four short months that I've been reading and
learning from the Biofuels listserv, I have come to
value greatly the breadth and depth of knowledge of
its members, not to mention its moderator.  For this I
thank you all.

I just successfully completed my first test batch,
have begun gathering bits with which to build my
processor, and I stand quite bouyed with the promise
of a home-brewed, non-petrol future for my beloved
Volkswagen.  

Cheers to you, JtF!

Sean Michael Dargan
Singer/Songwriter/Biodieseler
Madison, Wisconsin

P.S.  In the interest of plumbing multiple sources for
my new-found biodiesel obsession... er, I mean
interest... I ordered a certain popular book and  "how
to" video from an another BD site, just to check it
out.  Heavens to Mergatroid!  I'm sure it's been
covered before at *great* lengths, but what a
nightmare is that video!  I gather that the chap
behind that outfit must be VERY good at the marketing
part, because he certainly missed the bus on the
acting part.  And the savvy communicating part...  and
the chemistry...  Good gracious!  

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Re: [Biofuel] Magnetic boots

[Mike Montour]

Chris Lloyd wrote:

> Funny things magnets, I did some work with them back in the 60s, they do
> seem to contain far more energy than they should. Although energy is
> probably not the right word. Use electro magnets to hold 100 Kg in the
> air and you can see the energy being used by the current flow, now how
> do you calculate the "energy" being used with permanent magnets doing
> the same job. 

The electromagnet example is misleading, because the energy is not
helping to hold the 100kg in the air. Instead it's being wasted as heat
in the wire. The strength of the magnetic field is determined by the
current flowing through the wire, and if your wire had a resistance of 0
then this current would continue to flow without requiring any further
input of energy. Superconducting magnets are commercially available, but
only operate at extremely low temperatures (and are expensive).

Permanent magnets have the equivalent of a very large electric current
circulating within them, due to the way that the atoms line up inside
the material. However this does not mean that you can extract a
sustained flow of energy from them. The closest you can get are toys
like this:

http://www.scitoys.com/scitoys/scitoys/magnets/gauss.html

> There is no problem in turning off a permanent magnet, it can be done
> electronically or mechanically.Chris.

The usual mechanical method doesn't actually turn the magnet off,
instead it moves it so that its magnetic field is "short-circuited"
through the device instead of extending outward. This product is an example:

http://www.littlemachineshop.com/products/product_view.php?ProductID=1593

When you turn it "on", the magnetic base will stick to a metal table
with a very strong force. When you switch it "off", you can easily pick
it up and re-position it. I would guess that the magnetic boots were an
extension of this concept.

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