Re: [time-nuts] Win XP and NIST time
Hi Chris, On 03/26/2013 04:30 PM, Chris Albertson wrote: I would think that the best cure for persistent server abuse (abuse that continues even after a KoD is sent) would be to send back a bogus time with a huge random error of many thousands of hours. A normal NTP client will notice the error and stop sending requests and the simple ntp clients in Windows and home routers will annoy their users so much they would get disconnected. A lot of people don't understand how NTP works and think sending many packets will work better. It is simple to understand if you think about how to set a real mechanical wall clock.The goal is to set the fast/slow lever to the correct position. So you set you clock to match a standard clock then wait and after waiting you look at the offset from the standard. The LONGER you wait the better. NTP's goal is to adjust the rate of your clock. At first it waits a short time then as your clock's rate gets closer to correct it waits longer and longer. The longer times are actually a good sign. BUT somehow people think forcing a one second or one minute interval is better. Yes and no. As long as you are on the white frequency modulation noise of the local source, increasing the time-constant time is good, until you reach the flicker frequency modulation noise. It's the cut-off between them which forms the limit in that balance. There is another aspect, in that the amount of polling rate controls how well you are able to filter out the noise which steers how precise time become on the link. This is in fact an orthogonal property and goal to that of the frequency tracking. The polling rate and time constant of the filter remains two different things, aiming to solve two different problems with two different ideals. Cheers, Magnus ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Win XP and NIST time
The appearent conflict here is in the definition of real time. For the video capture application we only need to keep up with the average data rate and if the system stops reading data for a few tens of milliseconds and lets it buffer in the capture hardware then it is OK because nothing is lost. The only criteria for success is nothing is lost. The SDR application is a little more time critical because it needs to play the proceed audio. But again it can be buffered and we'd never notice a 50 millisecond lag in audio and for radio a 100 ms lag might go unnoticed But there is a category of what engineers ca hard real time. Home computer users don't normally use their PCs for hard real time applications. This would be things like controlling a walking robot, guiding an anti aircraft missile or just about any time a computer is inside the feedback loop of a control system. These are all engineering and science applications that home users wouldn't see. A harder real time use that people DO see in home use is music. If you try to do multi-track recording in a home music studio with windows. This can be done but people have to do thinks like (1) remove everything non music related from the PC and disconnect it from the network. (2) replace the audio subsystem software with special real-time ASIO audio drivers. Then it can work So real-time has a wide range of meanings, video capture is about the easiest to do and being embedded in a servo control loop the hardest On Tue, Mar 26, 2013 at 6:08 PM, David I. Emery d...@dieconsulting.com wrote: On Tue, Mar 26, 2013 at 07:39:51PM +0100, Alberto di Bene wrote: On 3/26/2013 7:21 PM, Dan Kemppainen wrote: Keep in mind, we are after all, taking about windows. An operating system that IS NOT real time operating system. (You think it is, try move a continuous stream of a few 6+ MBytes/Sec data to it!) Well, the Perseus SDR, when set to its maximum sampling rate after the DDC, sends the I and Q continuous streams (24 bit/sample each), to the PC at a rate of 2 MHz. This means 12 MBytes/sec via a high speed USB2 port. Using one the many available SDR programs, those 12 MBytes/sec are received, FIR and FFT are applied, demodulation algorithms are used, and there are no glitches in the final audio... if even a single sample would be lost, you would ear immediately the artifact Windows is not as bad as somebody would depict it... :-) I have been using Windows for digital video analysis and capture for years... often capture multiple 70-80 mb/s transport streams by the hour from USB and PCI sources and output similar for testing. It works. Does take buffering and tuning in the code, and some in the hardware. -- Dave Emery N1PRE/AE, d...@dieconsulting.com DIE Consulting, Weston, Mass 02493 An empty zombie mind with a forlorn barely readable weatherbeaten 'For Rent' sign still vainly flapping outside on the weed encrusted pole - in celebration of what could have been, but wasn't and is not to be now either. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. -- Chris Albertson Redondo Beach, California ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Win XP and NIST time
SDR isn't as taxing as you think. I'm running 4 of those rtlsdr type dongles on an A8-cortex. Granted under linux, but this is a single core Arm. The multimedia versions of linux don't get much press these days since the kernel itself now is rather low latency. But if you google linux musicians or windows musicians, there are tips for latency reduction. One of the nicest things you can do to a computer is turn off the stupid file indexing. On windows, the program everything is faster than windows file search ever was, and doesn't need the index. -Original Message- From: Chris Albertson albertson.ch...@gmail.com Sender: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2013 08:38:32 To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurementtime-nuts@febo.com Reply-To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Win XP and NIST time The appearent conflict here is in the definition of real time. For the video capture application we only need to keep up with the average data rate and if the system stops reading data for a few tens of milliseconds and lets it buffer in the capture hardware then it is OK because nothing is lost. The only criteria for success is nothing is lost. The SDR application is a little more time critical because it needs to play the proceed audio. But again it can be buffered and we'd never notice a 50 millisecond lag in audio and for radio a 100 ms lag might go unnoticed But there is a category of what engineers ca hard real time. Home computer users don't normally use their PCs for hard real time applications. This would be things like controlling a walking robot, guiding an anti aircraft missile or just about any time a computer is inside the feedback loop of a control system. These are all engineering and science applications that home users wouldn't see. A harder real time use that people DO see in home use is music. If you try to do multi-track recording in a home music studio with windows. This can be done but people have to do thinks like (1) remove everything non music related from the PC and disconnect it from the network. (2) replace the audio subsystem software with special real-time ASIO audio drivers. Then it can work So real-time has a wide range of meanings, video capture is about the easiest to do and being embedded in a servo control loop the hardest On Tue, Mar 26, 2013 at 6:08 PM, David I. Emery d...@dieconsulting.com wrote: On Tue, Mar 26, 2013 at 07:39:51PM +0100, Alberto di Bene wrote: On 3/26/2013 7:21 PM, Dan Kemppainen wrote: Keep in mind, we are after all, taking about windows. An operating system that IS NOT real time operating system. (You think it is, try move a continuous stream of a few 6+ MBytes/Sec data to it!) Well, the Perseus SDR, when set to its maximum sampling rate after the DDC, sends the I and Q continuous streams (24 bit/sample each), to the PC at a rate of 2 MHz. This means 12 MBytes/sec via a high speed USB2 port. Using one the many available SDR programs, those 12 MBytes/sec are received, FIR and FFT are applied, demodulation algorithms are used, and there are no glitches in the final audio... if even a single sample would be lost, you would ear immediately the artifact Windows is not as bad as somebody would depict it... :-) I have been using Windows for digital video analysis and capture for years... often capture multiple 70-80 mb/s transport streams by the hour from USB and PCI sources and output similar for testing. It works. Does take buffering and tuning in the code, and some in the hardware. -- Dave Emery N1PRE/AE, d...@dieconsulting.com DIE Consulting, Weston, Mass 02493 An empty zombie mind with a forlorn barely readable weatherbeaten 'For Rent' sign still vainly flapping outside on the weed encrusted pole - in celebration of what could have been, but wasn't and is not to be now either. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. -- Chris Albertson Redondo Beach, California ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Win XP and NIST time
albertson.ch...@gmail.com said: For the video capture application we only need to keep up with the average data rate and if the system stops reading data for a few tens of milliseconds and lets it buffer in the capture hardware then it is OK because nothing is lost. The only criteria for success is nothing is lost. I agree in general. The catch is that you need enough buffering. In lots of cases, buffering is expensive so the hardware designers try to avoid it. A big chunk of the USB architecture is trying to guarantee service so the dongle designer can figure out how little buffering they can get away with. -- These are my opinions. I hate spam. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Win XP and NIST time
Good explanation. I guessed, since the list is time nuts I assumed real time in reference to an OS would be understood. :) My bad. Because windows is not a real time operating system (RTOS), I lack seeing the purpose in getting the windows clock synchronized to within microseconds or nanoseconds of anything. Even if you could do it, you won't get much out of doing so. I've seen windows regularly stall critical code loops for more than a second at a time, when the loops would normally take a few milliseconds to run. If reading data down a USB connection, with limited buffering on the USB peripheral, data can and will be lost in streaming applications. (I suspect the SDR mentioned has a good bit of buffering in it!) As for timing things on windows, check out how to read the performance counters in windows. I believe these are QueryPerformanceCounter and QueryPerformanceFrequency in kernel32. In most modern systems these should give a time stamp from the system start, at the native core clock frequency. Now, using these with interrupts on some sort of input, one should be able to get some really good resolution on measurements from a PC. If the CPU clock frequency was locked to a really good source, you could get quite a system out of it... Dan On 3/27/2013 12:00 PM, time-nuts-requ...@febo.com wrote: The appearent conflict here is in the definition of real time. For the video capture application we only need to keep up with the average data rate and if the system stops reading data for a few tens of milliseconds and lets it buffer in the capture hardware then it is OK because nothing is lost. The only criteria for success is nothing is lost. The SDR application is a little more time critical because it needs to play the proceed audio. But again it can be buffered and we'd never notice a 50 millisecond lag in audio and for radio a 100 ms lag might go unnoticed But there is a category of what engineers ca hard real time. Home computer users don't normally use their PCs for hard real time applications. This would be things like controlling a walking robot, guiding an anti aircraft missile or just about any time a computer is inside the feedback loop of a control system. These are all engineering and science applications that home users wouldn't see. A harder real time use that people DO see in home use is music. If you try to do multi-track recording in a home music studio with windows. This can be done but people have to do thinks like (1) remove everything non music related from the PC and disconnect it from the network. (2) replace the audio subsystem software with special real-time ASIO audio drivers. Then it can work So real-time has a wide range of meanings, video capture is about the easiest to do and being embedded in a servo control loop the hardest ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Win XP and NIST time
The timing/logging of events can benefit from precise time, even if the processing of such data is not real time. MLAT/TDOA for example. But I believe stock trading uses precise timing in order to queue orders. On my list of sdr hacks is a radio interferometer. Precise event timing there would be key. (I will have to hack the sdrs to use one time source.) -Original Message- From: Dan Kemppainen d...@irtelemetrics.com Sender: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2013 12:46:08 To: time-nuts@febo.com Reply-To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Win XP and NIST time Good explanation. I guessed, since the list is time nuts I assumed real time in reference to an OS would be understood. :) My bad. Because windows is not a real time operating system (RTOS), I lack seeing the purpose in getting the windows clock synchronized to within microseconds or nanoseconds of anything. Even if you could do it, you won't get much out of doing so. I've seen windows regularly stall critical code loops for more than a second at a time, when the loops would normally take a few milliseconds to run. If reading data down a USB connection, with limited buffering on the USB peripheral, data can and will be lost in streaming applications. (I suspect the SDR mentioned has a good bit of buffering in it!) As for timing things on windows, check out how to read the performance counters in windows. I believe these are QueryPerformanceCounter and QueryPerformanceFrequency in kernel32. In most modern systems these should give a time stamp from the system start, at the native core clock frequency. Now, using these with interrupts on some sort of input, one should be able to get some really good resolution on measurements from a PC. If the CPU clock frequency was locked to a really good source, you could get quite a system out of it... Dan On 3/27/2013 12:00 PM, time-nuts-requ...@febo.com wrote: The appearent conflict here is in the definition of real time. For the video capture application we only need to keep up with the average data rate and if the system stops reading data for a few tens of milliseconds and lets it buffer in the capture hardware then it is OK because nothing is lost. The only criteria for success is nothing is lost. The SDR application is a little more time critical because it needs to play the proceed audio. But again it can be buffered and we'd never notice a 50 millisecond lag in audio and for radio a 100 ms lag might go unnoticed But there is a category of what engineers ca hard real time. Home computer users don't normally use their PCs for hard real time applications. This would be things like controlling a walking robot, guiding an anti aircraft missile or just about any time a computer is inside the feedback loop of a control system. These are all engineering and science applications that home users wouldn't see. A harder real time use that people DO see in home use is music. If you try to do multi-track recording in a home music studio with windows. This can be done but people have to do thinks like (1) remove everything non music related from the PC and disconnect it from the network. (2) replace the audio subsystem software with special real-time ASIO audio drivers. Then it can work So real-time has a wide range of meanings, video capture is about the easiest to do and being embedded in a servo control loop the hardest ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Win XP and NIST time
On Wed, Mar 27, 2013 at 9:46 AM, Dan Kemppainen d...@irtelemetrics.comwrote: As for timing things on windows, check out how to read the performance counters in windows. I believe these are QueryPerformanceCounter and QueryPerformanceFrequency in kernel32. In most modern systems these should give a time stamp from the system start, at the native core clock frequency. If you use those, you have to lock the thread you are timing to one CPU/Core as the performance counters are per CPU/Core and can get out of step. Or you can force your thread onto one CPU for the QueryPerformanceCounter call. This seems to be a bad idea to me as it would add an indeterminate time before querying the counter (indeterminate as if you are running on a different CPU, the OS would have to switch to the one you requested). Search for SetThreadAffinityMask and/or SetProcessAffinityMask along with QueryPerformanceCounter. Then all bets are off if you have a CPU that runs at variable speed if you want the result to be actual time. Orin. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Win XP and NIST time
orin.e...@gmail.com said: Then all bets are off if you have a CPU that runs at variable speed if you want the result to be actual time. I think that got fixed on newer CPU chips. I don't know when. Another interesting problem in that area is that the temperature changes with the CPU load. The crystal on most PCs actually makes a pretty good thermometer. -- These are my opinions. I hate spam. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Win XP and NIST time
On 3/27/2013 2:54 PM, time-nuts-requ...@febo.com wrote: Then all bets are off if you have a CPU that runs at variable speed if you want the result to be actual time. I think that got fixed on newer CPU chips. I don't know when. Another interesting problem in that area is that the temperature changes with the CPU load. The crystal on most PCs actually makes a pretty good thermometer. My modern processors (Phenom II x4's etc) don't have this issue with the performance counters. I believe that has been sorted out for a while now. (Thus my qualification of 'should' give you a time stamp from system start). I wouldn't use the performance counters in any critical code, just for testing said code loops while writing them. As for affinity, I do lock my time critical loops in windows to a single core before starting them. Windows is terrible at time critical data streaming stuff when handing off threads from one core to another. You can see the problems pop up as soon as the CPU load shifts from one core to another. And, don't get me started about hyperthreading! :) The bottom line is that windows is not good at doing anything in a timely manner. (Thus the use of lots of buffering!) It was never was meant to run time critical applications, and probably never will. So, knowing what we do about windows, why worry about locking it to anything? Even if the core and RTC were locked to a GPSDO, what will you gain? Correct time of day within a few seconds is good enough for me! Dan ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Win XP and NIST time
Orin writes: If you use those, you have to lock the thread you are timing to one CPU/Core as the performance counters are per CPU/Core and can get out of step. Or you can force your thread onto one CPU for the QueryPerformanceCounter call. This seems to be a bad idea to me as it would add an indeterminate time before querying the counter (indeterminate as if you are running on a different CPU, the OS would have to switch to the one you requested). In the WWV3 program I posted about some time ago, I use these calls to precisely calculate sleep times between second pulses, with excellent results (accurate to within human perception, not sure about microsecond accuracy). This does not mean that the timing cannot be temporarily off for one beep, but overall it is extremely precise. This was the only solution I could find for getting the sleep times correct, since they vary from one second to the next depending on how much time the program actually slept on the previous call (Windows does not guarantee that sleep times will be exact). The resolution for sleeping is also one millisecond, as I recall, and you need better timing than that in order to keep the beeps consistent. Generally, though, if you don't have an application or system function stalling the system, and the hardware is fast enough, you should be able to get away with all sorts of real-time use, as long as you accept that one day the machine might miss something (preferably not during a Cat III ILS approach). -- Anthony ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Win XP and NIST time
Chris writes: For most users I think that is reasonable. It's just not what one expects to read on a Time Nuts list. Here we expect to see posting from true nut-cases who want microsecond just because they can do it. But how can you verify microsecond accuracy on Windows? Even the OS only has 10 ms resolution for the system clock. I think there are different ways to be nuts about time. I like time measurement that is extremely accurate over long periods. Like my Waveceptor watch, which is accurate to within 1 second in 30 million years over the long term (because it syncs with atomic time), although it's free-running accuracy is only about a few hundred milliseconds per day, and its probably off by a few tens of milliseconds regularly, due to propagation delay and such. For me, it's okay if the clock is 10 microseconds off, but it's not okay if it's off by 10 microseconds today, 20 usec tomorrow, 40 usec the day after, and so on. I guess it's the difference between time-of-day measurement and interval measurement. I'm particularly fascinated by time-of-day measurement, but much less so by interval measurement. Perhaps because TOD is easier to verify directly through human perception, whereas with interval measurement you quickly become dependent on machines for verification. -- Anthony ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Win XP and NIST time
On Mon, Mar 25, 2013 at 9:46 PM, Hal Murray hmur...@megapathdsl.net wrote: albertson.ch...@gmail.com said: I think you can get Windows to run at the few milliseconds of error range with the standard NTP distribution. I don't think I've seen anything that bad, but it's easy to be off by 100s of ms if I download something big like a CD or a long video What I meant was that you can get Windows to run at the few milliseconds of error range. not that it will be that good in every case. What I really meant was don't expect uSec level timing from a normal Windows system. But is CAN be as good as a few mS. In your case you'd need GPS or some other reference clock to get there. Most people are getting no better than 10s of mS over the Internet -- Chris Albertson Redondo Beach, California ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Win XP and NIST time
On Mon, Mar 25, 2013 at 10:56 PM, Anthony G. Atkielski anth...@atkielski.com wrote: Chris writes: For most users I think that is reasonable. It's just not what one expects to read on a Time Nuts list. Here we expect to see posting from true nut-cases who want microsecond just because they can do it. But how can you verify microsecond accuracy on Windows? Even the OS only has 10 ms resolution for the system clock. First off, I was hardly serious. Making fun of someone for being sane? But the technical answer to your question about how to measure. Usually with NTP you'd build a set of at least five computers and each of the five measures the other four. You will find a core subset that track each other very well and then measure the Windows system relative to the local consensus time. Being a true nut you'd have have a few GPS receivers to help establish to local time and also a core set of NTP servers running BSD or maybe Linux. The thing to remember about NTP is that it is both a server and a client. So your Windows system will tell the other NTP system son your network its idea of the correct time. Those other systems will report the jitter and offset of the Windows NTP. Yes it is a lot of work for nothing. -- Chris Albertson Redondo Beach, California ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Win XP and NIST time
From: Anthony G. Atkielski [] I've been using the standard NTP client in Windows XP for ages, and it works just fine. I tried third-party stuff. It was just more work for no apparent gain. The XP desktop is synchronized with my NTP server perfectly within the limits of my perception, so there is no reason to go further. Microsecond accuracy is not necessary because I have no way of testing accuracy with that resolution, nor do I have any application that requires it. I'm mainly concerned with long-term accuracy, not short-term accuracy, so it's more important to be correct within 1/100 second over a period of years than to be correct within 1 microsecond over a day. Anthony == Anthony, As it happens, I have four PCs all taking satellite data at high-speed, together with dozens of other independently-operated PCs doing the same across Europe, and it's helpful to be able to correlate the time on any events which happen out of the ordinary. The accuracy provided by the reference NTP is most helpful for this, as well as its ease of management. There are amateur radio applications which also require much better accuracy than is provided by Microsoft's NTP for Windows. Cheers, David -- SatSignal Software - Quality software written to your requirements Web: http://www.satsignal.eu Email: david-tay...@blueyonder.co.uk ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Win XP and NIST time
From: Anthony G. Atkielski [] But how can you verify microsecond accuracy on Windows? Even the OS only has 10 ms resolution for the system clock. [] Anthony === Anthony, I appreciate that your needs don't include accurate PC time, but for the record 1 - with Windows, you can quite easily get better accuracy than 10 milliseconds. From at least Windows XP onwards, you can have the system clock run at nearly 1 KHz, providing millisecond accuracy, from native Windows. 2 - You can interpolate and obtain more accurate timestamps, see: http://www.satsignal.eu/ntp/TSCtime.html 3 - Windows-8 provides a much more accurate system call, GetSystemTimePreciseAsFileTime, with microsecond precision. See: http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-gb/library/windows/desktop/hh706895%28v=vs.85%29.aspx The reference NTP port will use the GetSystemTimePreciseAsFileTime function on Windows-8 for better performance. Cheers, David -- SatSignal Software - Quality software written to your requirements Web: http://www.satsignal.eu Email: david-tay...@blueyonder.co.uk ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Win XP and NIST time
On Tue, 26 Mar 2013 05:05:26 +0100, Anthony G. Atkielski anth...@atkielski.com wrote: Dan (I think) writes: Because, up until today, windows time did what I needed it to do. It may still, if the fault turns out to be network related. In reality, it's more software to learn to administer, and setup and run on bunch of PC's. As a time nut, I know exactly how much time I need for all of my other hobbies, since there's never enough of it... :) I've been using the standard NTP client in Windows XP for ages, and it works just fine. I tried third-party stuff. It was just more work for no apparent gain. The XP desktop is synchronized with my NTP server perfectly within the limits of my perception, so there is no reason to go further. Microsecond accuracy is not necessary because I have no way of testing accuracy with that resolution, nor do I have any application that requires it. I'm mainly concerned with long-term accuracy, not short-term accuracy, so it's more important to be correct within 1/100 second over a period of years than to be correct within 1 microsecond over a day. I have had trouble with the built in XP NTP client where it fails silently so I usually install Tardis which keeps an easy to read log which includes performance data. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Win XP and NIST time
davidwh...@gmail.com said: I have had trouble with the built in XP NTP client where it fails silently so I usually install Tardis which keeps an easy to read log which includes performance data. One of the problems with timekeeping is the load on the servers. The standard ntpd package tries hard to be a good citizen. I don't know the current status, but Tardis is a good example of a bad guy. Lots of other systems are also buggy. Here is a wonderful summary: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NTP_server_misuse_and_abuse If I was at a university, I'd call this required reading for anybody interested in networks. I urge all time-nuts to scan it. In particular, the Univ of Wisc mess by Dave Plonka. Flawed Routers Flood University of Wisconsin Internet Time Server Netgear Cooperating with University on a Resolution http://pages.cs.wisc.edu/~plonka/netgear-sntp/ -- These are my opinions. I hate spam. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Win XP and NIST time
On Tue, Mar 26, 2013 at 12:41 AM, Hal Murray hmur...@megapathdsl.net wrote: davidwh...@gmail.com said: I have had trouble with the built in XP NTP client where it fails silently so I usually install Tardis which keeps an easy to read log which includes performance data. One of the problems with timekeeping is the load on the servers. The standard ntpd package tries hard to be a good citizen. I don't know the current status, but Tardis is a good example of a bad guy. Lots of other systems are also buggy. Here is a wonderful summary: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NTP_server_misuse_and_abuse I would think that the best cure for persistent server abuse (abuse that continues even after a KoD is sent) would be to send back a bogus time with a huge random error of many thousands of hours. A normal NTP client will notice the error and stop sending requests and the simple ntp clients in Windows and home routers will annoy their users so much they would get disconnected. A lot of people don't understand how NTP works and think sending many packets will work better. It is simple to understand if you think about how to set a real mechanical wall clock.The goal is to set the fast/slow lever to the correct position. So you set you clock to match a standard clock then wait and after waiting you look at the offset from the standard. The LONGER you wait the better. NTP's goal is to adjust the rate of your clock. At first it waits a short time then as your clock's rate gets closer to correct it waits longer and longer. The longer times are actually a good sign. BUT somehow people think forcing a one second or one minute interval is better. Chris Albertson Redondo Beach, California ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Win XP and NIST time
I think using satellite Dave's plot routines is the way to tweak NTP. If you update too often, you can see the disturbance. This isn't a scientific solution, but a practical one. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Win XP and NIST time
On 3/26/2013 2:43 AM, time-nuts-requ...@febo.com wrote: albertson.ch...@gmail.com said: I think you can get Windows to run at the few milliseconds of error range with the standard NTP distribution. I don't think I've seen anything that bad, but it's easy to be off by 100s of ms if I download something big like a CD or a long video What I meant was that you can get Windows to run at the few milliseconds of error range. not that it will be that good in every case. What I really meant was don't expect uSec level timing from a normal Windows system. But is CAN be as good as a few mS. In your case you'd need GPS or some other reference clock to get there. Most people are getting no better than 10s of mS over the Internet -- Oddly enough, I had a strange way to compare two windows system today. I had a webex meeting, and the other party opened their clock and I could see seconds ticking away. I opened my clock, and the seconds were only about a second apart, mostly due to latency in getting data across the network. This isn't the first time I've done this. This is, in reality impressive, considering the delays in moving video data across the network. So, two windows boxes half way across the US showed the same time to within network latency of around a second or so. (TZ offset ignored, of course) Keep in mind, we are after all, taking about windows. An operating system that IS NOT real time operating system. (You think it is, try move a continuous stream of a few 6+ MBytes/Sec data to it!) As much as this gets to some time nuts (you know who you are! :) ), on windows, this is good 'enuf' for me! (Even when measuring how long it takes to calculate PI to 80e9 places...) Dan ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Win XP and NIST time
On 3/26/2013 7:21 PM, Dan Kemppainen wrote: Keep in mind, we are after all, taking about windows. An operating system that IS NOT real time operating system. (You think it is, try move a continuous stream of a few 6+ MBytes/Sec data to it!) Well, the Perseus SDR, when set to its maximum sampling rate after the DDC, sends the I and Q continuous streams (24 bit/sample each), to the PC at a rate of 2 MHz. This means 12 MBytes/sec via a high speed USB2 port. Using one the many available SDR programs, those 12 MBytes/sec are received, FIR and FFT are applied, demodulation algorithms are used, and there are no glitches in the final audio... if even a single sample would be lost, you would ear immediately the artifact Windows is not as bad as somebody would depict it... :-) 73 Alberto I2PHD ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Win XP and NIST time
within network latency of around a second or so A second is a long time/distance for a packet. The measured round trip time from California to Maine is under 100 ms. Sanity check: The US is 3000 miles east-west. A mile is 5000 feet. The speed of light is 1 ft/ns in vacuum. So that's ballpark of 15ms one way, 30 ms round trip. Fiber is slower than vacuum and fibers don't take the direct path. A factor of 3 seems reasonable. -- These are my opinions. I hate spam. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Win XP and NIST time
On Tue, Mar 26, 2013 at 07:39:51PM +0100, Alberto di Bene wrote: On 3/26/2013 7:21 PM, Dan Kemppainen wrote: Keep in mind, we are after all, taking about windows. An operating system that IS NOT real time operating system. (You think it is, try move a continuous stream of a few 6+ MBytes/Sec data to it!) Well, the Perseus SDR, when set to its maximum sampling rate after the DDC, sends the I and Q continuous streams (24 bit/sample each), to the PC at a rate of 2 MHz. This means 12 MBytes/sec via a high speed USB2 port. Using one the many available SDR programs, those 12 MBytes/sec are received, FIR and FFT are applied, demodulation algorithms are used, and there are no glitches in the final audio... if even a single sample would be lost, you would ear immediately the artifact Windows is not as bad as somebody would depict it... :-) I have been using Windows for digital video analysis and capture for years... often capture multiple 70-80 mb/s transport streams by the hour from USB and PCI sources and output similar for testing. It works. Does take buffering and tuning in the code, and some in the hardware. -- Dave Emery N1PRE/AE, d...@dieconsulting.com DIE Consulting, Weston, Mass 02493 An empty zombie mind with a forlorn barely readable weatherbeaten 'For Rent' sign still vainly flapping outside on the weed encrusted pole - in celebration of what could have been, but wasn't and is not to be now either. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Win XP and NIST time
Because, up until today, windows time did what I needed it to do. It may still, if the fault turns out to be network related. In reality, it's more software to learn to administer, and setup and run on bunch of PC's. As a time nut, I know exactly how much time I need for all of my other hobbies, since there's never enough of it... :) Dan On 3/25/2013 12:00 PM, time-nuts-requ...@febo.com wrote: .. and as Time-nut, Dan, why aren't you using NTP on your Windows PCs? http://www.satsignal.eu/ntp/setup.html Cheers, David -- SatSignal Software - Quality software written to your requirements Web: http://www.satsignal.eu Email: david-tay...@blueyonder.co.uk ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Win XP and NIST time
Because, up until today, windows time did what I needed it to do. It may still, if the fault turns out to be network related. In reality, it's more software to learn to administer, and setup and run on bunch of PC's. As a time nut, I know exactly how much time I need for all of my other hobbies, since there's never enough of it... :) Dan === I do take your point about administration, Dan, and there NTP offers you the advantage that administration is basically cross-platform, so it's very similar for UNIX, Linux, FreeBSD, and Windows etc. Learn once, apply in many places. Cheers, David -- SatSignal Software - Quality software written to your requirements Web: http://www.satsignal.eu Email: david-tay...@blueyonder.co.uk ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Win XP and NIST time
Dan (I think) writes: Because, up until today, windows time did what I needed it to do. It may still, if the fault turns out to be network related. In reality, it's more software to learn to administer, and setup and run on bunch of PC's. As a time nut, I know exactly how much time I need for all of my other hobbies, since there's never enough of it... :) I've been using the standard NTP client in Windows XP for ages, and it works just fine. I tried third-party stuff. It was just more work for no apparent gain. The XP desktop is synchronized with my NTP server perfectly within the limits of my perception, so there is no reason to go further. Microsecond accuracy is not necessary because I have no way of testing accuracy with that resolution, nor do I have any application that requires it. I'm mainly concerned with long-term accuracy, not short-term accuracy, so it's more important to be correct within 1/100 second over a period of years than to be correct within 1 microsecond over a day. -- Anthony ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Win XP and NIST time
albertson.ch...@gmail.com said: I think you can get Windows to run at the few milliseconds of error range with the standard NTP distribution. I assume you are talking about getting time from the net rather than a local GPS/GPSDO or such. The accuracy depends upon your network connection and/or the way you use it. This is not a Windows problem. Any OS will have similar problems. I have an old/slow 384 KB SDSL connection. The downlink side has almost 4 seconds of buffering. That means ntpd can be off by almost 2 seconds. (Yes, seconds.) I don't think I've seen anything that bad, but it's easy to be off by 100s of ms if I download something big like a CD or a long video from YouTube, anything that that keeps the pipe full for long enough will confuse NTP. The other evil player is Firefox and/or the way I use it. It opens a zillion connections to download stuff in parallel. (I think I found the way to limit that. I'm not sure it always does the right thing.) - Changing hats slightly. NTP works by exchanging a pair of packets. The client ends up with 4 time stamps: client side send, server side arrival and send, and client side arrival. NTP assumes the network delays are symmetrical and calculates the time offset from client to server. If you trust that the clocks are correct, you can measure the network transit times in each direction. -- These are my opinions. I hate spam. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Win XP and NIST time
On Mon, Mar 25, 2013 at 9:05 PM, Anthony G. Atkielski anth...@atkielski.com wrote: I've been using the standard NTP client in Windows XP for ages, and it works just fine. I tried third-party stuff. It was just more work for no apparent gain. The XP desktop is synchronized with my NTP server perfectly within the limits of my perception, For most users I think that is reasonable. It's just not what one expects to read on a Time Nuts list. Here we expect to see posting from true nut-cases who want microsecond just because they can do it. Gosh what next? Someone will admit that a normal TTL $2 can oscillator is actually good enough and he is tossing out the GPSDO. -- Chris Albertson Redondo Beach, California ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Win XP and NIST time
From: Anthony G. Atkielski [] I've been running XP for years using its built-in simple NTP client to query the NTP server on my server, which in turn synchronizes with a variety of NTP sources on the Net. [] Anthony == Folks, I'm surprised by how many time-nuts are not using the reference NTP port for Windows, considering the many advantages it has over the simple (non conformant and non-manageable) client built into Windows). I made some notes here: http://www.satsignal.eu/ntp/setup.html You can then use the same management tools (ntpq) and configuration expertise you have on you UNIX, Linux, FreeBSD etc. systems. Serial-port PPS devices are supported, allowing you to make stratum-1 clocks on Windows with performances down to the 100-200 microsecond level: PCs Alta Bacchus Feenix and Stamsund http://www.satsignal.eu/mrtg/performance_ntp.php and with Windows-8, network synced PCs with offsets typically below 250 microseconds even over Wi-Fi sync, PC Bergen: http://www.satsignal.eu/mrtg/performance_ntp.php Cheers, David -- SatSignal Software - Quality software written to your requirements Web: http://www.satsignal.eu Email: david-tay...@blueyonder.co.uk ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Win XP and NIST time
Being an old-timer, I've been running Jag-Air's Nixie Clock on Windows machines. See: http://www.clockvault.com/clocks%5Cnixiehowto.htm I've also used GPSCon with an HP Z3801 receiver as a source for SNTP. The Jag-Air solution is much simpler. Of course, NTP is more challenging, if that's what you want. Bill Hawkins ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Win XP and NIST time
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 24/03/2013 06:27, David J Taylor wrote: I'm surprised by how many time-nuts are not using the reference NTP port for Windows, considering the many advantages it has over the simple (non conformant and non-manageable) client built into Windows). I made some notes here: http://www.satsignal.eu/ntp/setup.html You can then use the same management tools (ntpq) and configuration expertise you have on you UNIX, Linux, FreeBSD etc. systems. Serial-port PPS devices are supported, allowing you to make stratum-1 clocks on Windows with performances down to the 100-200 microsecond level: PCs Alta Bacchus Feenix and Stamsund http://www.satsignal.eu/mrtg/performance_ntp.php and with Windows-8, network synced PCs with offsets typically below 250 microseconds even over Wi-Fi sync, PC Bergen: http://www.satsignal.eu/mrtg/performance_ntp.php Cheers, David +1 to this - on the Windows boxes I used to have running at a radio station (including playout machines, which needed good time synchronization) we ran Meinberg's NTPd port on all the machines and had no issues. That's with XP under a support contract, though - I suspect some people without said contracts via work etc will be hitting issues. http://windows.microsoft.com/en-GB/windows/products/lifecycle#section_2 suggests end of extended support April 2014, though - so only just over a year until even businesses can't get updates. Happily migrated everything to Win7 or Linux now so no more headaches on that front here. If you've not looked into 7 and are on XP still, I do recommend at least considering a migration - 7 is stable now and will be supported at least until 2020, but I'd wager longer than that the way Windows 8 appears to be crashing and burning in the market. Cheers, James -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v2.0.17 (MingW32) iEYEARECAAYFAlFO180ACgkQ22kkGnnJQAwfxwCfcZ9SJOE86Iw3J21e2yfKWGH9 upkAniM5ga/4e+96/mEGKVjpx4LMoSb+ =1d/u -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Win XP and NIST time
MS has/had a program to verify if your hardware would run win7. It has been too many years for me to recall the name. But if you are running really old hardware, it makes sense at some point just to dump it if you run it 24 and 7, if only for the cost of electricity (well depending where you live.) MS does not make OS switching economical. I'd say the cheapest version of win7 you should get is PRO since it has all the XP fallback hook. Win7 is missing a few features of older MS operation systems. The search feature is gone, but you can run a free program called everything. It is so fast, you can turn off indexing. Also gone is hyperterminal, but you can run terraterm, also free. I have a dual core intel atom for 24/7 use. With SSD and 4G of Ram, it used 25 watts. D525 processor. I've also been running linux on Arm. Even less power. -Original Message- From: James Harrison ja...@talkunafraid.co.uk Sender: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2013 10:39:09 To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurementtime-nuts@febo.com Reply-To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Win XP and NIST time -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 24/03/2013 06:27, David J Taylor wrote: I'm surprised by how many time-nuts are not using the reference NTP port for Windows, considering the many advantages it has over the simple (non conformant and non-manageable) client built into Windows). I made some notes here: http://www.satsignal.eu/ntp/setup.html You can then use the same management tools (ntpq) and configuration expertise you have on you UNIX, Linux, FreeBSD etc. systems. Serial-port PPS devices are supported, allowing you to make stratum-1 clocks on Windows with performances down to the 100-200 microsecond level: PCs Alta Bacchus Feenix and Stamsund http://www.satsignal.eu/mrtg/performance_ntp.php and with Windows-8, network synced PCs with offsets typically below 250 microseconds even over Wi-Fi sync, PC Bergen: http://www.satsignal.eu/mrtg/performance_ntp.php Cheers, David +1 to this - on the Windows boxes I used to have running at a radio station (including playout machines, which needed good time synchronization) we ran Meinberg's NTPd port on all the machines and had no issues. That's with XP under a support contract, though - I suspect some people without said contracts via work etc will be hitting issues. http://windows.microsoft.com/en-GB/windows/products/lifecycle#section_2 suggests end of extended support April 2014, though - so only just over a year until even businesses can't get updates. Happily migrated everything to Win7 or Linux now so no more headaches on that front here. If you've not looked into 7 and are on XP still, I do recommend at least considering a migration - 7 is stable now and will be supported at least until 2020, but I'd wager longer than that the way Windows 8 appears to be crashing and burning in the market. Cheers, James -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v2.0.17 (MingW32) iEYEARECAAYFAlFO180ACgkQ22kkGnnJQAwfxwCfcZ9SJOE86Iw3J21e2yfKWGH9 upkAniM5ga/4e+96/mEGKVjpx4LMoSb+ =1d/u -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Win XP and NIST time
From: li...@lazygranch.com [] Win7 is missing a few features of older MS operation systems. The search feature is gone, but you can run a free program called everything. It is so fast, you can turn off indexing. Also gone is hyperterminal, but you can run terraterm, also free. [] PuTTY is also quite a nice terminal emulation program. http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~sgtatham/putty/download.html Cheers, David -- SatSignal Software - Quality software written to your requirements Web: http://www.satsignal.eu Email: david-tay...@blueyonder.co.uk ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Win XP and NIST time
On Sat, Mar 23, 2013 at 11:27 PM, David J Taylor david-tay...@blueyonder.co.uk wrote: I'm surprised by how many time-nuts are not using the reference NTP port for Windows, considering the many advantages it has over the simple (non conformant and non-manageable) client built into Windows). I was about to write the same thing. I'd expect the avaerance Windows user not to care but some one on a timeNUTS list, you'd think would be more demanding and be looking at microseconds (even if a 10 second error is good enough) I think you can get Windows to run at the few milliseconds of error range with the standard NTP distribution. Again, not that many people need this but that is not the point if you are on this list. -- Chris Albertson Redondo Beach, California ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] Win XP and NIST Time
Recently, my 'puter clock has been resetting back an hour every so often. The auto-sync to time.NIST.gov is the timeserver it uses. Does that site change to Daylight time? Does the Windows time site change to aylight time? Tjanks, -John == ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Win XP and NIST Time
Recently, my 'puter clock has been resetting back an hour every so often. The auto-sync to time.NIST.gov is the timeserver it uses. Does that site change to Daylight time? Does the Windows time site change to aylight time? Tjanks, -John === John, Internally, Windows (like UNIX systems) uses UTC, and that can be kept correct by e.g. the NTP software: http://www.satsignal.eu/ntp/setup.html Windows own timekeeping software is not as robust or accurate. What you see displayed is determined by your Control Panel settings, and that should be under your control. Summer/Winter time settings for a particular time zone are what determines how Windows internal UTC is presented to you. (If you dual-boot between Windows and UNIX, there are other issues.) Cheers, David -- SatSignal Software - Quality software written to your requirements Web: http://www.satsignal.eu Email: david-tay...@blueyonder.co.uk ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Win XP and NIST Time
I think the date for the DST time change were altered some years ago, hence the Win SW messes up. I keep the 'puter clock on local time for convenience, and switch because eBay does. I am only concerned with roughly accurate local time. Best, -John === Recently, my 'puter clock has been resetting back an hour every so often. The auto-sync to time.NIST.gov is the timeserver it uses. Does that site change to Daylight time? Does the Windows time site change to aylight time? Tjanks, -John === John, Internally, Windows (like UNIX systems) uses UTC, and that can be kept correct by e.g. the NTP software: http://www.satsignal.eu/ntp/setup.html Windows own timekeeping software is not as robust or accurate. What you see displayed is determined by your Control Panel settings, and that should be under your control. Summer/Winter time settings for a particular time zone are what determines how Windows internal UTC is presented to you. (If you dual-boot between Windows and UNIX, there are other issues.) Cheers, David -- SatSignal Software - Quality software written to your requirements Web: http://www.satsignal.eu Email: david-tay...@blueyonder.co.uk ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Win XP and NIST Time
I think the date for the DST time change were altered some years ago, hence the Win SW messes up. I keep the 'puter clock on local time for convenience, and switch because eBay does. I am only concerned with roughly accurate local time. Best, -John John, I am not in the US, but I do know that Microsoft has been issuing routine updates for the various changes in Winter/Summer time switchover across the world. I would be surprised if your system were not switching at the correct times, assuming it is fully patched. I've seen no issues here in the UK, but it sounds as if it may be a US-specific issue, so I hope that a US resident can help further. Cheers, David -- SatSignal Software - Quality software written to your requirements Web: http://www.satsignal.eu Email: david-tay...@blueyonder.co.uk ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Win XP and NIST Time
On 3/23/13 7:27 AM, J. Forster wrote: I think the date for the DST time change were altered some years ago, hence the Win SW messes up. I keep the 'puter clock on local time for convenience, and switch because eBay does. I am only concerned with roughly accurate local time. For the last few years, the US DST transition date has been changing every year (Congress can spend time arguing about whether DST should start or end earlier or later, rather than actually working on hard things). It wouldn't surprise me that XP doesn't have an accurate table of this, since that would be one of the casualties of being past support EOL although the KB entries I link below indicate that they ARE still providing updates for XP. There are a lot of places where timezones can go wrong because it's all stored in the registry and there have been updates over the years that are incremental and others that purport to be monolithic, etc. This year, it changed very early (March 10) catching lots of people by surprise. I also learned that if you set your timezone to Iceland/Mali (GMT+0) you get UTC without any Daylight time (setting to London (GMT+0) gets you a shift for Summer Time) http://support.microsoft.com/kb/914387 http://support.microsoft.com/kb/2756822 ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Win XP and NIST Time
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 23/03/2013 14:50, Jim Lux wrote: It wouldn't surprise me that XP doesn't have an accurate table of this, since that would be one of the casualties of being past support EOL although the KB entries I link below indicate that they ARE still providing updates for XP. There are a lot of places where timezones can go wrong because it's all stored in the registry and there have been updates over the years that are incremental and others that purport to be monolithic, etc. XP is still up to date with timezone changes as far as I am aware but you will need to ensure all (including optional) updates are installed, and that may only be possible with an enterprise support contract now. If all else fails, you can disable automatic timezone updates with the following registry key: HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Control\TimeZoneInformation DisableAutoDaylightTimeSet REG_DWORD (1 = disable daylight-savings adjustment, 0 or not set = enable adjustment) Not sure if third party software can keep you in the right zone then, but I'd imagine so. Really though the correct fix is to upgrade to Windows 7. It's stable, works well, and will be supported for years to come; though if you want long term stability/updates you're better off looking into Linux systems. Cheers, James Harrison -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v2.0.17 (MingW32) iEYEARECAAYFAlFN3QIACgkQ22kkGnnJQAwXcQCfecSf69PAckTtmjDMCrNB/lWr Fk0AnjQpynN3/uK+qKbYlX4njLNnZBk8 =ziSq -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Win XP and NIST Time
Thank you. My question is really does NIST time change to DST. I'm completely happy with manually changing the time twice a year by hand. I'm trying to see if disabling the auto-update fixes the problem. Resetting a clock is not exactly a major task. I have no interest in going to Vista or Windows 7 or anything else. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. I made the mistake of clicking a link and 'upgrading' RealPlayer and the new version takes hugely more resources, crashes all the time, has loads of 'features' of zero interest, and I cannot even find out how to uninstall the bloatware, without losing saved files. YMMV, -John -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 23/03/2013 14:50, Jim Lux wrote: It wouldn't surprise me that XP doesn't have an accurate table of this, since that would be one of the casualties of being past support EOL although the KB entries I link below indicate that they ARE still providing updates for XP. There are a lot of places where timezones can go wrong because it's all stored in the registry and there have been updates over the years that are incremental and others that purport to be monolithic, etc. XP is still up to date with timezone changes as far as I am aware but you will need to ensure all (including optional) updates are installed, and that may only be possible with an enterprise support contract now. If all else fails, you can disable automatic timezone updates with the following registry key: HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Control\TimeZoneInformation DisableAutoDaylightTimeSet REG_DWORD (1 = disable daylight-savings adjustment, 0 or not set = enable adjustment) Not sure if third party software can keep you in the right zone then, but I'd imagine so. Really though the correct fix is to upgrade to Windows 7. It's stable, works well, and will be supported for years to come; though if you want long term stability/updates you're better off looking into Linux systems. Cheers, James Harrison -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v2.0.17 (MingW32) iEYEARECAAYFAlFN3QIACgkQ22kkGnnJQAwXcQCfecSf69PAckTtmjDMCrNB/lWr Fk0AnjQpynN3/uK+qKbYlX4njLNnZBk8 =ziSq -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Win XP and NIST Time
For some reason, I always had trouble with the XP time service so I disabled it and added a different NTP demon. I never had another problem. As I understand it, NTP never does DST changes. That's up to your OS to handle. I live in an area that doesn't do DST changes so I've never had to deal with it - other than dealing with some WWVB clocks that don't let you disable DST! Ed On 3/23/2013 11:02 AM, J. Forster wrote: Thank you. My question is really does NIST time change to DST. I'm completely happy with manually changing the time twice a year by hand. I'm trying to see if disabling the auto-update fixes the problem. Resetting a clock is not exactly a major task. I have no interest in going to Vista or Windows 7 or anything else. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. I made the mistake of clicking a link and 'upgrading' RealPlayer and the new version takes hugely more resources, crashes all the time, has loads of 'features' of zero interest, and I cannot even find out how to uninstall the bloatware, without losing saved files. YMMV, -John -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 23/03/2013 14:50, Jim Lux wrote: It wouldn't surprise me that XP doesn't have an accurate table of this, since that would be one of the casualties of being past support EOL although the KB entries I link below indicate that they ARE still providing updates for XP. There are a lot of places where timezones can go wrong because it's all stored in the registry and there have been updates over the years that are incremental and others that purport to be monolithic, etc. XP is still up to date with timezone changes as far as I am aware but you will need to ensure all (including optional) updates are installed, and that may only be possible with an enterprise support contract now. If all else fails, you can disable automatic timezone updates with the following registry key: HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Control\TimeZoneInformation DisableAutoDaylightTimeSet REG_DWORD (1 = disable daylight-savings adjustment, 0 or not set = enable adjustment) Not sure if third party software can keep you in the right zone then, but I'd imagine so. Really though the correct fix is to upgrade to Windows 7. It's stable, works well, and will be supported for years to come; though if you want long term stability/updates you're better off looking into Linux systems. Cheers, James Harrison -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v2.0.17 (MingW32) ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Win XP and NIST Time
Thank you, -John == For some reason, I always had trouble with the XP time service so I disabled it and added a different NTP demon. I never had another problem. As I understand it, NTP never does DST changes. That's up to your OS to handle. I live in an area that doesn't do DST changes so I've never had to deal with it - other than dealing with some WWVB clocks that don't let you disable DST! Ed On 3/23/2013 11:02 AM, J. Forster wrote: Thank you. My question is really does NIST time change to DST. I'm completely happy with manually changing the time twice a year by hand. I'm trying to see if disabling the auto-update fixes the problem. Resetting a clock is not exactly a major task. I have no interest in going to Vista or Windows 7 or anything else. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. I made the mistake of clicking a link and 'upgrading' RealPlayer and the new version takes hugely more resources, crashes all the time, has loads of 'features' of zero interest, and I cannot even find out how to uninstall the bloatware, without losing saved files. YMMV, -John -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 23/03/2013 14:50, Jim Lux wrote: It wouldn't surprise me that XP doesn't have an accurate table of this, since that would be one of the casualties of being past support EOL although the KB entries I link below indicate that they ARE still providing updates for XP. There are a lot of places where timezones can go wrong because it's all stored in the registry and there have been updates over the years that are incremental and others that purport to be monolithic, etc. XP is still up to date with timezone changes as far as I am aware but you will need to ensure all (including optional) updates are installed, and that may only be possible with an enterprise support contract now. If all else fails, you can disable automatic timezone updates with the following registry key: HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Control\TimeZoneInformation DisableAutoDaylightTimeSet REG_DWORD (1 = disable daylight-savings adjustment, 0 or not set = enable adjustment) Not sure if third party software can keep you in the right zone then, but I'd imagine so. Really though the correct fix is to upgrade to Windows 7. It's stable, works well, and will be supported for years to come; though if you want long term stability/updates you're better off looking into Linux systems. Cheers, James Harrison -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v2.0.17 (MingW32) ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Win XP and NIST Time
On Sat, Mar 23, 2013 at 10:02 AM, J. Forster j...@quikus.com wrote: Thank you. My question is really does NIST time change to DST. I'm completely happy with manually changing the time twice a year by hand. I'm trying to see if disabling the auto-update fixes the problem. Resetting a clock is not exactly a major task. They keep time in UTC. (they time at Greenwich England) then your computer is set to some offset that might change twice per year. The question is how are to communicating with NIST? What kind of software are you using. Is it what shipped with MS Windows,then that would be a dumbed-down version NTP or maybe you have a current distripution if NTP. Then the next queston is the set of time servers you are using and how many of them. Or perhaps you have a GPS you are uins as a reference? Then there is WWVB. I think that signal has a daylight savings bitin the data But in all cases the conversion to local time is done locally. Chris Albertson Redondo Beach, California ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] Win XP and NIST time
Hi all, I am a new member, in St Pete, Florida. I noticed that last week, my XP laptop had not updated at the arrival of summer time and I had to do it manually. Cheers. Jay ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Win XP and NIST time
If you double left click on the clock; click on the Time Zone tab, there is a check box for DST update on/off. Since the dates of DST have changed, it does not work right. Best, -John = Hi all, I am a new member, in St Pete, Florida. I noticed that last week, my XP laptop had not updated at the arrival of summer time and I had to do it manually. Cheers. Jay ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Win XP and NIST time
I'm running Microsoft Windows XP Professional -- Version 5.1.2600 Service Pack 3 Build 2600. I still get occasional notifications and update my OS with latest changes. (Don't know how much longer that will continue.) The time on my system updated OK and is currently correct. I haven't noticed any issues with the DST changeover. I just asked it to do a time synchronization and that completed OK. So rumors of XP being broken seem to be exaggerated. On 3/23/2013 5:06 PM, J. Forster wrote: If you double left click on the clock; click on the Time Zone tab, there is a check box for DST update on/off. Since the dates of DST have changed, it does not work right. Best, -John = Hi all, I am a new member, in St Pete, Florida. I noticed that last week, my XP laptop had not updated at the arrival of summer time and I had to do it manually. Cheers. Jay ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Win XP and NIST time
When I was having trouble with my XP system, I could set the time off by a few minutes and then ask it to do a time sync. It would report success, but the time was still a few minutes off. At that point I disabled the time service and installed an NTP program. Ed On 3/23/2013 8:30 PM, Rex wrote: I'm running Microsoft Windows XP Professional -- Version 5.1.2600 Service Pack 3 Build 2600. I still get occasional notifications and update my OS with latest changes. (Don't know how much longer that will continue.) The time on my system updated OK and is currently correct. I haven't noticed any issues with the DST changeover. I just asked it to do a time synchronization and that completed OK. So rumors of XP being broken seem to be exaggerated. On 3/23/2013 5:06 PM, J. Forster wrote: If you double left click on the clock; click on the Time Zone tab, there is a check box for DST update on/off. Since the dates of DST have changed, it does not work right. Best, -John = Hi all, I am a new member, in St Pete, Florida. I noticed that last week, my XP laptop had not updated at the arrival of summer time and I had to do it manually. Cheers. Jay ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Win XP and NIST time
Jay Cox writes: I am a new member, in St Pete, Florida. I noticed that last week, my XP laptop had not updated at the arrival of summer time and I had to do it manually. The DST changeover times are contained in the registry. Each time they change, Microsoft issues an update that corrects the times in the registry. However, you can also download a tool from Microsoft that allows you to edit the changeover yourself, available from here: http://download.microsoft.com/download/5/8/a/58a208b7-7dc7-4bc7-8357-28e29cdac52f/TZEDIT.exe You just run this little program and it's self-explanatory. It lets you update changeover times for any time zone. I've been running XP for years using its built-in simple NTP client to query the NTP server on my server, which in turn synchronizes with a variety of NTP sources on the Net. It works extremely well, although oddly enough, if I tell it to sync manually it seems to mess up sometimes, while if I let it sync automatically there's no problem. It's set to sync every few minutes, which isn't a problem because it syncs against my own server. -- Anthony ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Win XP and NIST time
Same here. Regards. Max. K 4 O DS. Email: m...@maxsmusicplace.com Transistor site http://www.funwithtransistors.net Vacuum tube site: http://www.funwithtubes.net Woodworking site http://www.angelfire.com/electronic/funwithtubes/Woodworking/wwindex.html Music site: http://www.maxsmusicplace.com To subscribe to the fun with transistors group send an email to. funwithtransistors-subscr...@yahoogroups.com To subscribe to the fun with tubes group send an email to, funwithtubes-subscr...@yahoogroups.com To subscribe to the fun with wood group send a blank email to funwithwood-subscr...@yahoogroups.com - Original Message - From: Rex r...@sonic.net To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Saturday, March 23, 2013 9:30 PM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Win XP and NIST time I'm running Microsoft Windows XP Professional -- Version 5.1.2600 Service Pack 3 Build 2600. I still get occasional notifications and update my OS with latest changes. (Don't know how much longer that will continue.) The time on my system updated OK and is currently correct. I haven't noticed any issues with the DST changeover. I just asked it to do a time synchronization and that completed OK. So rumors of XP being broken seem to be exaggerated. On 3/23/2013 5:06 PM, J. Forster wrote: If you double left click on the clock; click on the Time Zone tab, there is a check box for DST update on/off. Since the dates of DST have changed, it does not work right. Best, -John = Hi all, I am a new member, in St Pete, Florida. I noticed that last week, my XP laptop had not updated at the arrival of summer time and I had to do it manually. Cheers. Jay ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
