Re: [WISPA] High Power RF close-proximity on tower question

2010-12-22 Thread Tom DeReggi
Ouch. I can just feel the flesh boiling. Probably have to wear a radiation 
suite to work on your radio, being that close to that.
I'd predict the Ubiquitits would get severe receiver overload without filters 
added.
Any chance of moving your antennas further away? Or the FM antennas further 
away? Dont you have a non-interference clause?
I'd think that would protect against receive overload also. Can you put the 
expense on the FM antenna guy, to buy your filters, since you were there first?
 
Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


  - Original Message - 
  From: Scott Carullo 
  To: wireless@wispa.org 
  Sent: Monday, December 20, 2010 4:30 PM
  Subject: [WISPA] High Power RF close-proximity on tower question



  Ok, I've dealt with up to about 20KW on FM transmitter 20 feet away and dealt 
with it decently.  

  Now I'm told one of our installs of gear on a tower is about to get a 100KW 
20ft above my gear and a TV antenna 20ft below it at 700KW channel 39 I think.

  Anyone have gear running close to this kind of high-power antennas?  Am I 
screwed or will I be able to have my equipment work int his RF environment?  
Assume I did everything right (grounded metal box, shielded cable soldered 
drain wires, ferrite cores on the cables etc...).

  Thanks


  Scott Carullo
  Technical Operations
  855-FLSPEED x102




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Re: [WISPA] High Power RF close-proximity on tower question

2010-12-20 Thread Scott Carullo
Yeah, external filters are not an option for me.  They are going to work 
or...

The Trango and Radwin equipment may have a chance.  I'm not really giving 
the UBNT stuff a chance at all.  Am I being too pessimistic?  Its the 
ethernet I've had the most problems with in the past, not the radios 
receivers

Scott Carullo
Technical Operations
855-FLSPEED x102



From: "Bob Moldashel" 
Sent: Monday, December 20, 2010 6:39 PM
To: wa4...@arrl.net, "WISPA General List" 
Subject: Re: [WISPA] High Power RF close-proximity on tower question

Filtering is pretty moot when you consider they are in plastic housings 
with no significant shielding  :-)

-B-

On 12/20/2010 6:31 PM, Leon D. Zetekoff wrote:
> On 12/20/2010 05:56 PM, Jack Unger wrote:
>> There is QUITE a difference between a separation distance of 20 ft and 
a
>> separation distance of 100 yards. Remember the inverse-square law - RF 
intensity
>> decreases as the SQUARE of the separation distance. 100 yards is 300 
feet and 20
>> feet goes into 300 feet 15 times so the RF intensity at 100 yards is the 
inverse
>> of 15 squared (15X15) or the inverse of 225. Inverting 225 means that 
the
>> intensity at 100 yards is only 1/225th as much as at 20 feet. Scott's 
equipment
>> is going to be exposed to 225 times greater RF energy than yours so his
>> equipment is likely to be overloaded with receiver de-sensitization 
while your
>> equipment may be OK.
>>
>> The solution is to "do everything right" as Scott says. The 11 GHz 
equipment is
>> likely so far away from the FM and TV frequencies that it is probably 
OK. The
>> solution for 2.4 and 5 GHz is use proper bandpass filters between the 
antennas
>> and the equipment then test to see if the receivers seem to have full
>> sensitivity or not.
>>
> Jack is 100% correct. Remember these radios do not have much filtering
> in the front-ends so you have to make up for it with external 
accessories.
>
> Leon
>> jack
>>
>>
>> On 12/20/2010 2:34 PM, Bret Clark wrote:
>>
>>>> On 12/20/2010 1:30 PM, Scott Carullo wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Ok, I've dealt with up to about 20KW on FM transmitter 20 feet away
>>>>> and dealt with it decently.
>>>>>
>>>>> Now I'm told one of our installs of gear on a tower is about to get 
a
>>>>> 100KW 20ft above my gear and a TV antenna 20ft below it at 700KW
>>>>> channel 39 I think.
>>>>>
>>>>> Anyone have gear running close to this kind of high-power antennas?
>>>>> Am I screwed or will I be able to have my equipment work int his RF
>>>>> environment?  Assume I did everything right (grounded metal box,
>>>>> shielded cable soldered drain wires, ferrite cores on the cables 
etc...).
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks
>>>>>
>>>>> Scott Carullo
>>>>> Technical Operations
>>>>> 855-FLSPEED x102
>>>>>
>>> We are running 5.8 and 3.65 stuff on towers with 100KW TV systems on 
the
>>> tower located about a 100 yards from us on another tower...no 
problems.
>>> Probably not much difference between 100KW 20 feet or 100 yards apart.
>>>
>
>
> 


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Re: [WISPA] High Power RF close-proximity on tower question

2010-12-20 Thread Bob Moldashel
Filtering is pretty moot when you consider they are in plastic housings 
with no significant shielding  :-)

-B-




On 12/20/2010 6:31 PM, Leon D. Zetekoff wrote:
> On 12/20/2010 05:56 PM, Jack Unger wrote:
>> There is QUITE a difference between a separation distance of 20 ft and a
>> separation distance of 100 yards. Remember the inverse-square law - RF 
>> intensity
>> decreases as the SQUARE of the separation distance. 100 yards is 300 feet 
>> and 20
>> feet goes into 300 feet 15 times so the RF intensity at 100 yards is the 
>> inverse
>> of 15 squared (15X15) or the inverse of 225. Inverting 225 means that the
>> intensity at 100 yards is only 1/225th as much as at 20 feet. Scott's 
>> equipment
>> is going to be exposed to 225 times greater RF energy than yours so his
>> equipment is likely to be overloaded with receiver de-sensitization while 
>> your
>> equipment may be OK.
>>
>> The solution is to "do everything right" as Scott says. The 11 GHz equipment 
>> is
>> likely so far away from the FM and TV frequencies that it is probably OK. The
>> solution for 2.4 and 5 GHz is use proper bandpass filters between the 
>> antennas
>> and the equipment then test to see if the receivers seem to have full
>> sensitivity or not.
>>
> Jack is 100% correct. Remember these radios do not have much filtering
> in the front-ends so you have to make up for it with external accessories.
>
> Leon
>> jack
>>
>>
>> On 12/20/2010 2:34 PM, Bret Clark wrote:
>>
 On 12/20/2010 1:30 PM, Scott Carullo wrote:

> Ok, I've dealt with up to about 20KW on FM transmitter 20 feet away
> and dealt with it decently.
>
> Now I'm told one of our installs of gear on a tower is about to get a
> 100KW 20ft above my gear and a TV antenna 20ft below it at 700KW
> channel 39 I think.
>
> Anyone have gear running close to this kind of high-power antennas?
> Am I screwed or will I be able to have my equipment work int his RF
> environment?  Assume I did everything right (grounded metal box,
> shielded cable soldered drain wires, ferrite cores on the cables etc...).
>
> Thanks
>
> Scott Carullo
> Technical Operations
> 855-FLSPEED x102
>
>>> We are running 5.8 and 3.65 stuff on towers with 100KW TV systems on the
>>> tower located about a 100 yards from us on another tower...no problems.
>>> Probably not much difference between 100KW 20 feet or 100 yards apart.
>>>
>
>
> 
> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> http://signup.wispa.org/
> 
>
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>
> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>
> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
>
>




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Re: [WISPA] High Power RF close-proximity on tower question

2010-12-20 Thread Jeremie Chism
I have an fm antenna (low power) on the tower where I am at at about 35 feet 
above me and I have a CPE on an FM backup antenna with no problems. This is 
Axxcelera 3.65 wimax. Shielded cable with good grounds. No need for ferrite 
beads so far. 

Sent from my iPhone4

On Dec 20, 2010, at 5:31 PM, "Leon D. Zetekoff"  
wrote:

> On 12/20/2010 05:56 PM, Jack Unger wrote:
>> There is QUITE a difference between a separation distance of 20 ft and a 
>> separation distance of 100 yards. Remember the inverse-square law - RF 
>> intensity 
>> decreases as the SQUARE of the separation distance. 100 yards is 300 feet 
>> and 20 
>> feet goes into 300 feet 15 times so the RF intensity at 100 yards is the 
>> inverse 
>> of 15 squared (15X15) or the inverse of 225. Inverting 225 means that the 
>> intensity at 100 yards is only 1/225th as much as at 20 feet. Scott's 
>> equipment 
>> is going to be exposed to 225 times greater RF energy than yours so his 
>> equipment is likely to be overloaded with receiver de-sensitization while 
>> your 
>> equipment may be OK.
>> 
>> The solution is to "do everything right" as Scott says. The 11 GHz equipment 
>> is 
>> likely so far away from the FM and TV frequencies that it is probably OK. 
>> The 
>> solution for 2.4 and 5 GHz is use proper bandpass filters between the 
>> antennas 
>> and the equipment then test to see if the receivers seem to have full 
>> sensitivity or not.
>> 
> Jack is 100% correct. Remember these radios do not have much filtering
> in the front-ends so you have to make up for it with external accessories.
> 
> Leon
>> jack
>> 
>> 
>> On 12/20/2010 2:34 PM, Bret Clark wrote:
>> 
 On 12/20/2010 1:30 PM, Scott Carullo wrote:
 
> Ok, I've dealt with up to about 20KW on FM transmitter 20 feet away
> and dealt with it decently.
> 
> Now I'm told one of our installs of gear on a tower is about to get a
> 100KW 20ft above my gear and a TV antenna 20ft below it at 700KW
> channel 39 I think.
> 
> Anyone have gear running close to this kind of high-power antennas?
> Am I screwed or will I be able to have my equipment work int his RF
> environment?  Assume I did everything right (grounded metal box,
> shielded cable soldered drain wires, ferrite cores on the cables etc...).
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Scott Carullo
> Technical Operations
> 855-FLSPEED x102
> 
>>> We are running 5.8 and 3.65 stuff on towers with 100KW TV systems on the
>>> tower located about a 100 yards from us on another tower...no problems.
>>> Probably not much difference between 100KW 20 feet or 100 yards apart.
>>> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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> http://signup.wispa.org/
> 
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> 
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Re: [WISPA] High Power RF close-proximity on tower question

2010-12-20 Thread Leon D. Zetekoff
On 12/20/2010 05:56 PM, Jack Unger wrote:
> There is QUITE a difference between a separation distance of 20 ft and a 
> separation distance of 100 yards. Remember the inverse-square law - RF 
> intensity 
> decreases as the SQUARE of the separation distance. 100 yards is 300 feet and 
> 20 
> feet goes into 300 feet 15 times so the RF intensity at 100 yards is the 
> inverse 
> of 15 squared (15X15) or the inverse of 225. Inverting 225 means that the 
> intensity at 100 yards is only 1/225th as much as at 20 feet. Scott's 
> equipment 
> is going to be exposed to 225 times greater RF energy than yours so his 
> equipment is likely to be overloaded with receiver de-sensitization while 
> your 
> equipment may be OK.
>
> The solution is to "do everything right" as Scott says. The 11 GHz equipment 
> is 
> likely so far away from the FM and TV frequencies that it is probably OK. The 
> solution for 2.4 and 5 GHz is use proper bandpass filters between the 
> antennas 
> and the equipment then test to see if the receivers seem to have full 
> sensitivity or not.
>   
Jack is 100% correct. Remember these radios do not have much filtering
in the front-ends so you have to make up for it with external accessories.

Leon
> jack
>
>
> On 12/20/2010 2:34 PM, Bret Clark wrote:
>   
>>> On 12/20/2010 1:30 PM, Scott Carullo wrote:
>>>   
 Ok, I've dealt with up to about 20KW on FM transmitter 20 feet away
 and dealt with it decently.

 Now I'm told one of our installs of gear on a tower is about to get a
 100KW 20ft above my gear and a TV antenna 20ft below it at 700KW
 channel 39 I think.

 Anyone have gear running close to this kind of high-power antennas?
 Am I screwed or will I be able to have my equipment work int his RF
 environment?  Assume I did everything right (grounded metal box,
 shielded cable soldered drain wires, ferrite cores on the cables etc...).

 Thanks

 Scott Carullo
 Technical Operations
 855-FLSPEED x102
 
>> We are running 5.8 and 3.65 stuff on towers with 100KW TV systems on the
>> tower located about a 100 yards from us on another tower...no problems.
>> Probably not much difference between 100KW 20 feet or 100 yards apart.
>> 




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Re: [WISPA] High Power RF close-proximity on tower question

2010-12-20 Thread Bret Clark
True...good advice.

On 12/20/2010 05:56 PM, Jack Unger wrote:
> There is QUITE a difference between a separation distance of 20 ft and a
> separation distance of 100 yards. Remember the inverse-square law - RF 
> intensity
> decreases as the SQUARE of the separation distance. 100 yards is 300 feet and 
> 20
> feet goes into 300 feet 15 times so the RF intensity at 100 yards is the 
> inverse
> of 15 squared (15X15) or the inverse of 225. Inverting 225 means that the
> intensity at 100 yards is only 1/225th as much as at 20 feet. Scott's 
> equipment
> is going to be exposed to 225 times greater RF energy than yours so his
> equipment is likely to be overloaded with receiver de-sensitization while your
> equipment may be OK.
>
> The solution is to "do everything right" as Scott says. The 11 GHz equipment 
> is
> likely so far away from the FM and TV frequencies that it is probably OK. The
> solution for 2.4 and 5 GHz is use proper bandpass filters between the antennas
> and the equipment then test to see if the receivers seem to have full
> sensitivity or not.
>
> jack
>
>
> On 12/20/2010 2:34 PM, Bret Clark wrote:
>
>>> On 12/20/2010 1:30 PM, Scott Carullo wrote:
>>>
 Ok, I've dealt with up to about 20KW on FM transmitter 20 feet away
 and dealt with it decently.

 Now I'm told one of our installs of gear on a tower is about to get a
 100KW 20ft above my gear and a TV antenna 20ft below it at 700KW
 channel 39 I think.

 Anyone have gear running close to this kind of high-power antennas?
 Am I screwed or will I be able to have my equipment work int his RF
 environment?  Assume I did everything right (grounded metal box,
 shielded cable soldered drain wires, ferrite cores on the cables etc...).

 Thanks

 Scott Carullo
 Technical Operations
 855-FLSPEED x102
  
>> We are running 5.8 and 3.65 stuff on towers with 100KW TV systems on the
>> tower located about a 100 yards from us on another tower...no problems.
>> Probably not much difference between 100KW 20 feet or 100 yards apart.
>>
>>
>>
>> 
>> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
>> http://signup.wispa.org/
>> 
>>
>> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>>
>> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
>> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>>
>> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
>>
>>
>>  
>




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Re: [WISPA] High Power RF close-proximity on tower question

2010-12-20 Thread Jack Unger
There is QUITE a difference between a separation distance of 20 ft and a 
separation distance of 100 yards. Remember the inverse-square law - RF 
intensity 
decreases as the SQUARE of the separation distance. 100 yards is 300 feet and 
20 
feet goes into 300 feet 15 times so the RF intensity at 100 yards is the 
inverse 
of 15 squared (15X15) or the inverse of 225. Inverting 225 means that the 
intensity at 100 yards is only 1/225th as much as at 20 feet. Scott's equipment 
is going to be exposed to 225 times greater RF energy than yours so his 
equipment is likely to be overloaded with receiver de-sensitization while your 
equipment may be OK.

The solution is to "do everything right" as Scott says. The 11 GHz equipment is 
likely so far away from the FM and TV frequencies that it is probably OK. The 
solution for 2.4 and 5 GHz is use proper bandpass filters between the antennas 
and the equipment then test to see if the receivers seem to have full 
sensitivity or not.

jack


On 12/20/2010 2:34 PM, Bret Clark wrote:
>> On 12/20/2010 1:30 PM, Scott Carullo wrote:
>>> Ok, I've dealt with up to about 20KW on FM transmitter 20 feet away
>>> and dealt with it decently.
>>>
>>> Now I'm told one of our installs of gear on a tower is about to get a
>>> 100KW 20ft above my gear and a TV antenna 20ft below it at 700KW
>>> channel 39 I think.
>>>
>>> Anyone have gear running close to this kind of high-power antennas?
>>> Am I screwed or will I be able to have my equipment work int his RF
>>> environment?  Assume I did everything right (grounded metal box,
>>> shielded cable soldered drain wires, ferrite cores on the cables etc...).
>>>
>>> Thanks
>>>
>>> Scott Carullo
>>> Technical Operations
>>> 855-FLSPEED x102
>
> We are running 5.8 and 3.65 stuff on towers with 100KW TV systems on the
> tower located about a 100 yards from us on another tower...no problems.
> Probably not much difference between 100KW 20 feet or 100 yards apart.
>
>
>
> 
> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> http://signup.wispa.org/
> 
>
> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>
> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>
> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
>
>

-- 
Jack Unger - President, Ask-Wi.Com, Inc.
Author - "Deploying License-Free Wireless Wide-Area Networks"
Serving the WISP, Networking and Telecom Communities since 1993
www.ask-wi.com  818-227-4220  jun...@ask-wi.com






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Re: [WISPA] High Power RF close-proximity on tower question

2010-12-20 Thread Bret Clark

>
> On 12/20/2010 1:30 PM, Scott Carullo wrote:
>>
>> Ok, I've dealt with up to about 20KW on FM transmitter 20 feet away 
>> and dealt with it decently.
>>
>> Now I'm told one of our installs of gear on a tower is about to get a 
>> 100KW 20ft above my gear and a TV antenna 20ft below it at 700KW 
>> channel 39 I think.
>>
>> Anyone have gear running close to this kind of high-power antennas?  
>> Am I screwed or will I be able to have my equipment work int his RF 
>> environment?  Assume I did everything right (grounded metal box, 
>> shielded cable soldered drain wires, ferrite cores on the cables etc...).
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>> Scott Carullo
>> Technical Operations
>> 855-FLSPEED x102


We are running 5.8 and 3.65 stuff on towers with 100KW TV systems on the 
tower located about a 100 yards from us on another tower...no problems. 
Probably not much difference between 100KW 20 feet or 100 yards apart.




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Re: [WISPA] High Power RF close-proximity on tower question

2010-12-20 Thread Scott Carullo
2 Trango 11Ghz Apex's
3 Ubiquiti Rocket M5 sectors
3 Ubiquiti Rocket M2 sectors
1 Nanostation M5
3 Rocket M5s with 34db dishes
2 Radwin 2000C's 

Scott Carullo
Technical Operations
855-FLSPEED x102



From: "Jack Unger" 
Sent: Monday, December 20, 2010 4:47 PM
To: sc...@brevardwireless.com, "WISPA General List" 
Subject: Re: [WISPA] High Power RF close-proximity on tower question

What gear are you running?

On 12/20/2010 1:30 PM, Scott Carullo wrote:

Ok, I've dealt with up to about 20KW on FM transmitter 20 feet
away and dealt with it decently.  

Now I'm told one of our installs of gear on a tower is about to
get a 100KW 20ft above my gear and a TV antenna 20ft below it at
700KW channel 39 I think.

Anyone have gear running close to this kind of high-power
antennas?  Am I screwed or will I be able to have my equipment
work int his RF environment?  Assume I did everything right
(grounded metal box, shielded cable soldered drain wires,
ferrite cores on the cables etc...).

Thanks

Scott Carullo
Technical Operations
855-FLSPEED x102








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-- 
Jack Unger - President, Ask-Wi.Com, Inc.
Author - "Deploying License-Free Wireless Wide-Area Networks"
Serving the WISP, Networking and Telecom Communities since 1993
www.ask-wi.com  818-227-4220  jun...@ask-wi.com






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Re: [WISPA] High Power RF close-proximity on tower question

2010-12-20 Thread Jack Unger


  
  
What gear are you running?

On 12/20/2010 1:30 PM, Scott Carullo wrote:

Ok, I've dealt with up to about 20KW on FM transmitter 20 feet
away and dealt with it decently.  

Now I'm told one of our installs of gear on a tower is about to
get a 100KW 20ft above my gear and a TV antenna 20ft below it at
700KW channel 39 I think.

Anyone have gear running close to this kind of high-power
antennas?  Am I screwed or will I be able to have my equipment
work int his RF environment?  Assume I did everything right
(grounded metal box, shielded cable soldered drain wires,
ferrite cores on the cables etc...).

Thanks

Scott Carullo
  Technical Operations
  855-FLSPEED x102
  
  
  
  




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Author - "Deploying License-Free Wireless Wide-Area Networks"
Serving the WISP, Networking and Telecom Communities since 1993
www.ask-wi.com  818-227-4220  jun...@ask-wi.com



  




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