Re: [Zope-dev] Re: [Zope-CMF] i18n for CMF And Plone, backporting i18n to Zope 2.x

[Joachim Werner]

Hi!

> Barry A. Warsaw writes:
>  > concerns.  After talking with Fred, I came to understand that much of
>  > the code's current obscurity is due to optimizations to make TAL
>  > perform at least as fast as DTML.
>
> Well, faster than it used to.  We need to spend time on performance.

Indeed. All my "pseudo-benchmarking" resulted in ZPT being up to 4 times
slower than DTML ...

Wouldn't it possible to precompile ZPT into Python bytecode or even
something more efficient? We've compared DTML and ZPT to working with Python
strings that get variables passed, and the later was way faster. Which is
more or less obvious as it does not do nearly the same DTML/ZPT do (i.e.
security checks and the like) ...

I'd probably be happy with some way of creating pseudo-dynamic templates
that only have dynamic "hot spots", like server side includes in Apache, but
use precompiled or cached version of the template for the rest. The problem
is that most of the time we could use Zope + a cacheing proxy, except for
very small parts of the page that make it uncacheable as a whole ...

>  > So while I'd love to have the code be cleaner and more pluggable, we
>  > have to decide 1) if we're willing to give up some performance to
>  > acheive this, and 2) if not, can you provide a design and
>  > implementation that will "perform adequately"?
>
> It might be time to investigate Pyrex:
>
> http://www.cosc.canterbury.ac.nz/~greg/python/Pyrex/

This one sounds good ...

Joachim



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Re: [Zope-dev] Re: [Zope-CMF] i18n for CMF And Plone, backporting i18n to Zope 2.x

[Jim Fulton]

Sidnei da Silva wrote:
> On Seg 01 Jul 2002 15:26, Jim Fulton wrote:
> | I'll add that the current ZPT implementation is too slow
> | (thanks to recent DTML speedups ;).
> |
> | ZPT needs to be as fast as or faster than DTML.  It would be
> | great if it was cleaner and more pluggable.
> |
> | Jim
> 
> I remember that i had the same concern when discussing this with lalo, and he 
> told me that this should be faster, as TAL-Current stores a binary 
> representation of the XML Parsed source, and his version is based on PAX, and 
> this would not need to be pre-compiled and stored. Unfortunately I cannot 
> give more information as this explanation seemed fine to me at that time.

I'm far less concerned with parsing speed than with execution speed. I find it
hard to believe that an implementation that parses every time a page is rendered
will be faster than an implementation that renders from a compiled form.

Jim

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Re: [Zope-dev] Re: [Zope-CMF] i18n for CMF And Plone, backporting i18n to Zope 2.x

[Sidnei da Silva]

On Seg 01 Jul 2002 15:26, Jim Fulton wrote:
| I'll add that the current ZPT implementation is too slow
| (thanks to recent DTML speedups ;).
|
| ZPT needs to be as fast as or faster than DTML.  It would be
| great if it was cleaner and more pluggable.
|
| Jim

I remember that i had the same concern when discussing this with lalo, and he 
told me that this should be faster, as TAL-Current stores a binary 
representation of the XML Parsed source, and his version is based on PAX, and 
this would not need to be pre-compiled and stored. Unfortunately I cannot 
give more information as this explanation seemed fine to me at that time.

[]'s

-- 
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X3ng Web Technology 
GNU/Linux user 257852
Debian GNU/Linux 3.0 (Sid) 2.4.18-newpmac ppc

FORTRAN rots the brain.
-- John McQuillin



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Re: [Zope-dev] Re: [Zope-CMF] i18n for CMF And Plone, backporting i18n to Zope 2.x

[Jim Fulton]

Barry A. Warsaw wrote:
>>"SdS" == Sidnei da Silva <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>>
> 
> SdS> Well, i didnt told there was i18n support there ;)
> 
> Oh! :)
> 
> SdS> Basically, Alt-TAL is a rewrite of TAL to allow one to expand
> SdS> TAL by providing plugins. This means that if you want to
> SdS> provide i18n for Alt-TAL you just need to write an i18n
> SdS> plugin and register it as a handler for i18n:something.  The
> SdS> the current TAL implementation is very obscure, and Shane
> SdS> agrees with us that it could be highly improved with no much
> SdS> effort.
> 
> SdS> At a first glance, you can see that this implementation is
> SdS> much clear, and pluggable, and the current TAL needs too much
> SdS> hacking to extend support for new tags, and has too much
> SdS> dependencies on Zope right now, as someone pointed out.
> 
> I don't know about the "not much effort" part, but in theory, this is
> something I'd support.  We talked about doing this for the Zope3 i18n
> effort, but the primary reason we didn't was due to performance
> concerns.  After talking with Fred, I came to understand that much of
> the code's current obscurity is due to optimizations to make TAL
> perform at least as fast as DTML.
> 
> So while I'd love to have the code be cleaner and more pluggable, we
> have to decide 1) if we're willing to give up some performance to
> acheive this, and 2) if not, can you provide a design and
> implementation that will "perform adequately"?

I'll add that the current ZPT implementation is too slow
(thanks to recent DTML speedups ;).

ZPT needs to be as fast as or faster than DTML.  It would be
great if it was cleaner and more pluggable.

Jim

-- 
--
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Re: [Zope-dev] Re: [Zope-CMF] i18n for CMF And Plone,backporting i18n to Zope 2.x

[Fred L. Drake, Jr.]

Barry A. Warsaw writes:
 > concerns.  After talking with Fred, I came to understand that much of
 > the code's current obscurity is due to optimizations to make TAL
 > perform at least as fast as DTML.

Well, faster than it used to.  We need to spend time on performance.

 > So while I'd love to have the code be cleaner and more pluggable, we
 > have to decide 1) if we're willing to give up some performance to
 > acheive this, and 2) if not, can you provide a design and
 > implementation that will "perform adequately"?

It might be time to investigate Pyrex:

http://www.cosc.canterbury.ac.nz/~greg/python/Pyrex/


  -Fred

-- 
Fred L. Drake, Jr.  
PythonLabs at Zope Corporation


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Re: [Zope-dev] Re: [Zope-CMF] i18n for CMF And Plone, backporting i18n to Zope 2.x

[Barry A. Warsaw]

> "SdS" == Sidnei da Silva <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

SdS> Well, i didnt told there was i18n support there ;)

Oh! :)

SdS> Basically, Alt-TAL is a rewrite of TAL to allow one to expand
SdS> TAL by providing plugins. This means that if you want to
SdS> provide i18n for Alt-TAL you just need to write an i18n
SdS> plugin and register it as a handler for i18n:something.  The
SdS> the current TAL implementation is very obscure, and Shane
SdS> agrees with us that it could be highly improved with no much
SdS> effort.

SdS> At a first glance, you can see that this implementation is
SdS> much clear, and pluggable, and the current TAL needs too much
SdS> hacking to extend support for new tags, and has too much
SdS> dependencies on Zope right now, as someone pointed out.

I don't know about the "not much effort" part, but in theory, this is
something I'd support.  We talked about doing this for the Zope3 i18n
effort, but the primary reason we didn't was due to performance
concerns.  After talking with Fred, I came to understand that much of
the code's current obscurity is due to optimizations to make TAL
perform at least as fast as DTML.

So while I'd love to have the code be cleaner and more pluggable, we
have to decide 1) if we're willing to give up some performance to
acheive this, and 2) if not, can you provide a design and
implementation that will "perform adequately"?

-Barry


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Re: [Zope-dev] Re: [Zope-CMF] i18n for CMF And Plone, backporting i18n to Zope 2.x

[Sidnei da Silva]

Well, i didnt told there was i18n support there ;) 

Basically, Alt-TAL is a rewrite of TAL to allow one to expand TAL by providing 
plugins. This means that if you want to provide i18n for Alt-TAL you just 
need to write an i18n plugin and register it as a handler for i18n:something.
The the current TAL implementation is very obscure, and Shane agrees with us 
that it could be highly improved with no much effort.

At a first glance, you can see that this implementation is much clear, and 
pluggable, and the current TAL needs too much hacking to extend support for 
new tags, and has too much dependencies on Zope right now, as someone pointed 
out.

Im forwarding this thread to zope-dev so we can disscuss this there. 

I hope Lalo can get online soon and explain his ideas, as i havent 
participated on this rewrite at all.

Jim also said that I should talk with Fred Drake, as he is the guy at 
PythonLabs that is in charge of TAL, so im forwarding this to him too.

[]'s

On Seg 01 Jul 2002 13:48, Barry A. Warsaw wrote:
| > "SdS" == Sidnei da Silva <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
|
| SdS> My friend Lalo ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) started a rewrite of TAL to
| SdS> make it more pluggable and ease backporting of i18n to
| SdS> Zope2. I dont know how much if it is done right now, but the
| SdS> last time I talked to him, he said that only METAL was
| SdS> missing.
|
| SdS> His work is available at http://sf.net/projects/collective ->
| SdS> Browse CVS -> Alt-TAL module.
|
| SdS> I think that the best idea is support him, as he has almost
| SdS> everything in place.
|
| A quick scan didn't show much i18n support there, but perhaps I'm
| missing it.
|
| FTR, Stephan demoed the Zope3 i18n stuff at EuroPython and we're
| planning on backporting it to Zope2, but for the Zope 2.7 release.
|
| -Barry

-- 
Sidnei da Silva (dreamcatcher) <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
X3ng Web Technology 
GNU/Linux user 257852
Debian GNU/Linux 3.0 (Sid) 2.4.18-newpmac ppc

All the existing 2.0.x kernels are to buggy for 2.1.x to be the
main goal.
-- Alan Cox



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Re: [Zope-dev] Re: [Zope-CMF] i18n for CMF And Plone, backporting i18n to Zope 2.x

[Barry A. Warsaw]

> "SdS" == Sidnei da Silva <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

SdS> My friend Lalo ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) started a rewrite of TAL to
SdS> make it more pluggable and ease backporting of i18n to
SdS> Zope2. I dont know how much if it is done right now, but the
SdS> last time I talked to him, he said that only METAL was
SdS> missing.

SdS> His work is available at http://sf.net/projects/collective ->
SdS> Browse CVS -> Alt-TAL module.

SdS> I think that the best idea is support him, as he has almost
SdS> everything in place.

A quick scan didn't show much i18n support there, but perhaps I'm
missing it.

FTR, Stephan demoed the Zope3 i18n stuff at EuroPython and we're
planning on backporting it to Zope2, but for the Zope 2.7 release.

-Barry


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Re: [Zope-dev] Re: [Zope-CMF] i18n for CMF And Plone, backporting i18n to Zope 2.x

[Jim Fulton]

Stephan Richter and Zope Corp are porting Zope 3 ZPT I18n support
to Zope 2.x, probably with a target of Zope 2.7.

Jim


Sidnei da Silva wrote:
> Hi Robert,
> 
> My friend Lalo ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) started a rewrite of TAL to make it more 
> pluggable and ease backporting of i18n to Zope2. I dont know how much if it 
> is done right now, but the last time I talked to him, he said that only METAL 
> was missing.
> 
> His work is available at http://sf.net/projects/collective -> Browse CVS -> 
> Alt-TAL module.
> 
> I think that the best idea is support him, as he has almost everything in 
> place.
> 
> []'s
> 
> On Seg 01 Jul 2002 11:50, Robert Rottermann wrote:
> | Hi Zopistas,
> |
> | I would very much appreciate your ideas and support in the matter of
> | backporting Z3 i18n support to 2.6+
> |
> | I did get a number of answers to my inquiry regarding i18n support for
> | Plone.
> | It seems that the only sensible way to do this, is to backport the i18n
> | support from Zope3's TAL to Zope2.'s TAL.
> |
> | I have been looking into Zope3's TAL. What I found created mixed
> | enthusiasm.
> |
> | - there seems not to much code in TAL itself that is i18n related.
> | - However the TAL3's structure has been altered somehow to reflect changes
> | in Zope3's structure.
> |
> | Since I have not dealt much with Zope3 yet I have no idea what is needed to
> | add a module in TAL 2.6+ that
> | adds functionality to deal with such tags:
> |
> | (This are a snippets from Plone templates.)
> | -
> |  Posted by:
> |  Poster Name
> |  at
> |  8/23/2001
> | 12:40:44 PM
> | -
> ||i18n:id="no_body_text">
> |   This document has yet to be written, click the edit tab to change the
> | document.
> |   
> | -
> |
> | One could maybe use a brute force approach and just add a filter after the
> | TAL processing that deals with all i18n artifacts it finds.
> |
> | thanks for your input
> |
> | mit freundlichen Grüssen
> |
> | Robert Rottermann
> |
> | Wir wollen Technik mit Menschlichkeit verbinden,
> | um Menschen mit Technik zu erreichen.
> | www.redcor.ch-   die website
> | www.redcor.net   -   zope trainings (and more)
> |
> |
> |
> | ___
> | Zope-CMF maillist  -  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> | http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-cmf
> |
> | See http://www.zope.org/Products/PTK/Tracker for bug reports and feature
> | requests
> 
> 



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[Zope-dev] Re: [Zope-CMF] i18n for CMF And Plone, backporting i18n to Zope 2.x

[Sidnei da Silva]

Hi Robert,

My friend Lalo ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) started a rewrite of TAL to make it more 
pluggable and ease backporting of i18n to Zope2. I dont know how much if it 
is done right now, but the last time I talked to him, he said that only METAL 
was missing.

His work is available at http://sf.net/projects/collective -> Browse CVS -> 
Alt-TAL module.

I think that the best idea is support him, as he has almost everything in 
place.

[]'s

On Seg 01 Jul 2002 11:50, Robert Rottermann wrote:
| Hi Zopistas,
|
| I would very much appreciate your ideas and support in the matter of
| backporting Z3 i18n support to 2.6+
|
| I did get a number of answers to my inquiry regarding i18n support for
| Plone.
| It seems that the only sensible way to do this, is to backport the i18n
| support from Zope3's TAL to Zope2.'s TAL.
|
| I have been looking into Zope3's TAL. What I found created mixed
| enthusiasm.
|
| - there seems not to much code in TAL itself that is i18n related.
| - However the TAL3's structure has been altered somehow to reflect changes
| in Zope3's structure.
|
| Since I have not dealt much with Zope3 yet I have no idea what is needed to
| add a module in TAL 2.6+ that
| adds functionality to deal with such tags:
|
| (This are a snippets from Plone templates.)
| -
|  Posted by:
|  Poster Name
|  at
|  8/23/2001
| 12:40:44 PM
| -
|   
|   This document has yet to be written, click the edit tab to change the
| document.
|   
| -
|
| One could maybe use a brute force approach and just add a filter after the
| TAL processing that deals with all i18n artifacts it finds.
|
| thanks for your input
|
| mit freundlichen Grüssen
|
| Robert Rottermann
|
| Wir wollen Technik mit Menschlichkeit verbinden,
| um Menschen mit Technik zu erreichen.
| www.redcor.ch-   die website
| www.redcor.net   -   zope trainings (and more)
|
|
|
| ___
| Zope-CMF maillist  -  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
| http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-cmf
|
| See http://www.zope.org/Products/PTK/Tracker for bug reports and feature
| requests

-- 
Sidnei da Silva (dreamcatcher) <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
X3ng Web Technology 
GNU/Linux user 257852
Debian GNU/Linux 3.0 (Sid) 2.4.18-newpmac ppc

I wish you humans would leave me alone.



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