Re: Move v12 to v15 or v16

[Alan Chan]

For v16 on pure Mac environment, would it be possible to use 32bit client but 
64bit server in new network layer?

Alan Chan

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Re: Move v12 to v15 or v16

[Alan Chan]

Not until you have clients using touch bar macbook pro.

Alan Chan

4D iNug Technical <4d_tech@lists.4d.com> writes:
>What other info do you have re OS version on Mac. I am having NO problems with 
>15.2


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Re: Query editor in v15

[Keisuke Miyako]

(excuse me for the multi posts earlier; Mail on Mac is super aggressive when 
there is a network error)

I am not sure if the query path or plan tells anything about the network usage.
I would look into the C/S request log instead (database parameters 28 and 45)

there is a new appendix E that documents the TSV
http://doc.4d.com/4Dv16/4D/16/Appendix-E-Description-of-log-files.300-3188166.en.html

> Is there any such documentation (we’re using 4D v15.2) that you know of?



宮古 啓介
セールス・エンジニア

株式会社フォーディー・ジャパン
〒150-0043
東京都渋谷区道玄坂1-10-2 渋谷THビル6F
Tel: 03-6427-8441
Fax: 03-6427-8449

keisuke.miy...@4d.com
www.4D.com/JP

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Re: More Fun with Objects

[Keisuke Miyako]

only if the passed $test_object is not undefined (that is, {} or has at least 
one property)

if the method is going to be called under all different circumstances,
you could assert in the Test_Object method is defined to avoid unintended bugs.

> 2017/01/19 8:38、Lee Hinde  のメール：
>
> I've been explicitly returning a passed object with $0, or passing a
> pointer, if I was going to change the object  in the calling method.
>
> Don't need to...


宮古 啓介
セールス・エンジニア

株式会社フォーディー・ジャパン
〒150-0043
東京都渋谷区道玄坂1-10-2 渋谷THビル6F
Tel: 03-6427-8441
Fax: 03-6427-8449

keisuke.miy...@4d.com
www.4D.com/JP

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Re: Website development path

[Peter Jakobsson]

On 18 Jan 2017, at 23:16, Sujit Shah  wrote:

> I will be sold on any 4D based plugin or component that can demonstrate
> this.

Hi Sujit

I agree with the sentiment of your post which is why I’ve decided to sit out 
this particular phase of the human race’s evolution until it gets sorted out.

I blame Easyjet. They saw a tool that was invented for passing documents around 
university departments and decided they could fill plane seats with it. The 
rest is history, largely written by high-calibre electronic plumbers ;)

Never mind, the first 4D job I ever got was for a plumber so I can’t be too 
disrespectful. (Also, they’ve now overtaken me in billing rates so I’ll 
probably be joining them soon anyway :)  )

Peter
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More Fun with Objects

[Lee Hinde]

This is part and parcel of all the discussion about how objects are
special, and may have been explicitly discussed, but I just tested this:


*C_OBJECT*($test_object)

*OB SET*($test_object;"an";"object")

*Test_Object*($test_object)

// put a trace point here


And Test_Object is:

*C_OBJECT*($object;*$1*)

$object:=*$1 *// good habits die hard even for simple test..

*OB SET*($object;"test";"I added test")


I've been explicitly returning a passed object with $0, or passing a
pointer, if I was going to change the object  in the calling method.

Don't need to...
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Re: Website development path

[Sujit Shah]

Peter

That demo is great for those who are familiar with 4D. The one aspect that
I struggle with is outputting a modern UI. And for that matter I don't see
many examples that demonstrate this either. In 4D this was just a matter of
"drag and drop", add the colours, formats,  handle the events and you are
done. For the web you need to understand frameworks, HTML, Typescript/
Javascript, Angular, Wakanda whatever.. I am sure a lot of lazy 4D
developers like me are facing similar challenges. A single developer can
develop a full blown VMA on his/ her own. I am not sure this is even
possible with any of the current web technologies. My preference has always
been to start with a bootstrap template so you have the basic menu,
buttons, navigation pane, search, login, grids and other objects ready for
you to start coding.

I will be sold on any 4D based plugin or component that can demonstrate
this.



On Thu, Jan 19, 2017 at 8:14 AM, Peter Jakobsson 
wrote:

> Hello ernie
>
> > But, I have tried four time to 'get a grip' on Active4D, I slam into
> text (manuals)  that makes no cense to me and does not empower me to
> continue to want to 'learn' this fantastic product
>
> Indeed, I feel your pain. Some of the documentation and material focuses
> more on the powerful, fancy stuff that Active4D can do rather than the
> simple.
>
> For that reason I’ve created a small demo for you in case you find it more
> accessible. In the time since you made that post I’ve both cooked my
> daughter’s dinner and created this 1-page site containing active content
> generated in pure 4D script written directly into the web page. The beauty
> of this approach is that it levers what you already know and doesn’t
> require acquiring a whole new active script skill set. (Clearly for some
> stuff you always do such as Javascript etc).
>
> The demo page demonstrates queries, writing data to a table, reading data
> from the table and outputing to html as well as calling into native 4D
> methods and commands from the web page.
>
> What I did:
>
> 1. Downloaded the Active4D shell from here: http://www.aparajitaworld.com/
> downloads/
> 2. Created a table and 1 method (the “getRoman” function)
> 3. Opened TextMate and wrote the code you see below
> 4. Saved the page in the “web” folder next to my structure (“mypage.a4d”)
>
> Here’s the finished page output:
> https://s29.postimg.org/892ryx4g7/page.png
>
> Here’s active web page code containing 4D code written into the html
> between percent tags:
> https://s24.postimg.org/xwguynfrp/code1.png
> https://s27.postimg.org/hjf1128wz/code2.png
>
> Here’s the structure:
> https://s29.postimg.org/67cmogc47/structure.png
>
> Here’s Active4D helping me debug the finished result:
> https://s30.postimg.org/m6sps0p6p/debug.png
>
> I’ve sent you the demo by PM in case you’d like to explore it. ill be
> happy to do so for anyone else that wants it.
>
> Hope that helps although I realise you may already have got past this
> stage but many people don’t even get that far as they are under the
> impression that the learning curve is steeper.
>
> Best Regards
>
> Peter
>
>
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-- 

xxx
"There must be ingenuity as well as intention, strategy as well as
strength. "
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Re: OB commands, confirming a few points

[David Adams]

For anyone still following along with this (and for the archives), I joined
Arnaud on the forums and got in trouble ;-) I also made a few feature
requests:

New command: JSON Stringify stored array
http://forums.4d.fr/Post//18931320/1/

OB Get Array 4D type
http://forums.4d.fr/Post//18931295/1/

OB GET PROPERTY NAMES enhancement
http://forums.4d.fr/Post//18931215/1/

I'm also cross-posting (mea culpa) so code for anyone interested in the way
4D coerces arrays of different types out of a C_OBJECT area. It's really
dumb code. This is from V16.0 in a brand new database. The results appear
the same interpreted and compiled It lets you see what you get for the
supported types apart from pointers. I haven't tried pointers via objects
yet so I left them out. If anyone feels like updating the code, I'd be
happy to see the results. Sorry, I don't know the names of the commands in
French, this is just code in English.

ARRAY BOOLEAN(boolean_array_in;0)
APPEND TO ARRAY(boolean_array_in;True)
APPEND TO ARRAY(boolean_array_in;False)
APPEND TO ARRAY(boolean_array_in;True)

ARRAY REAL(real_array_in;0)
APPEND TO ARRAY(real_array_in;1.1)
APPEND TO ARRAY(real_array_in;2.2)
APPEND TO ARRAY(real_array_in;3.3)

ARRAY TEXT(text_array_in;0)
APPEND TO ARRAY(text_array_in;"monday")
APPEND TO ARRAY(text_array_in;"tuesday")
APPEND TO ARRAY(text_array_in;"wednesday")

ARRAY OBJECT(object_array_in;0)
C_OBJECT($empty_object)

C_OBJECT($simple_object)
$simple_object:=JSON Parse("{}")

C_OBJECT($object_with_a_few_elements)
$object_with_a_few_elements:=JSON Parse("{}")
OB SET($object_with_a_few_elements;"Number";Pi)
OB SET($object_with_a_few_elements;"Text";"Hello world!")
OB SET($object_with_a_few_elements;"Boolean";True)

APPEND TO ARRAY(object_array_in;$empty_object)
APPEND TO ARRAY(object_array_in;$simple_object)
APPEND TO ARRAY(object_array_in;$object_with_a_few_elements)

C_OBJECT(object)
object:=JSON Parse("{}")
OB SET ARRAY(object;"boolean_array_in";boolean_array_in)
OB SET ARRAY(object;"real_array_in";real_array_in)
OB SET ARRAY(object;"text_array_in";text_array_in)
OB SET ARRAY(object;"object_array_in";object_array_in)

C_TEXT($cr)
$cr:=Char(Carriage return)

C_TEXT($dump_text)
$dump_text:=""
$dump_text:=$dump_text+"JSON Stringify of complete object."
$dump_text:=$dump_text+$cr

C_TEXT($json)
$dump_text:=$dump_text+JSON Stringify(object;*)+$cr+$cr
$dump_text:=$dump_text+$cr

$dump_text:=$dump_text+"--"+$cr
$dump_text:=$dump_text+"Pull each type out into a Boolean array"+$cr
$dump_text:=$dump_text+"--"+$cr

ARRAY BOOLEAN(boolean_array_out;0)
ARRAY REAL(real_array_out;0)
ARRAY TEXT(text_array_out;0)
ARRAY OBJECT(object_array_out;0)

OB GET ARRAY(object;"boolean_array_in";boolean_array_out)
OB GET ARRAY(object;"boolean_array_in";real_array_out)
OB GET ARRAY(object;"boolean_array_in";text_array_out)
OB GET ARRAY(object;"boolean_array_in";object_array_out)

$dump_text:=$dump_text+"Source array boolean_array_in"+$cr
$dump_text:=$dump_text+JSON Stringify array(boolean_array_in)+$cr+$cr

$dump_text:=$dump_text+"Output array boolean_array_out"+$cr
$dump_text:=$dump_text+JSON Stringify array(boolean_array_out)+$cr+$cr

$dump_text:=$dump_text+"Output array real_array_out"+$cr
$dump_text:=$dump_text+JSON Stringify array(real_array_out)+$cr+$cr

$dump_text:=$dump_text+"Output array text_array_out"+$cr
$dump_text:=$dump_text+JSON Stringify array(text_array_out)+$cr+$cr

$dump_text:=$dump_text+"Output array object_array_out"+$cr
$dump_text:=$dump_text+JSON Stringify array(object_array_out)+$cr+$cr

$dump_text:=$dump_text+"--"+$cr
$dump_text:=$dump_text+"Pull each type out into a Real array"+$cr
$dump_text:=$dump_text+"--"+$cr

ARRAY BOOLEAN(boolean_array_out;0)
ARRAY REAL(real_array_out;0)
ARRAY TEXT(text_array_out;0)
ARRAY OBJECT(object_array_out;0)

OB GET ARRAY(object;"real_array_in";boolean_array_out)
OB GET ARRAY(object;"real_array_in";real_array_out)
OB GET ARRAY(object;"real_array_in";text_array_out)
OB GET ARRAY(object;"real_array_in";object_array_out)

$dump_text:=$dump_text+"Source array real_array_in"+$cr
$dump_text:=$dump_text+JSON Stringify array(real_array_in)+$cr+$cr

$dump_text:=$dump_text+"Output array boolean_array_out"+$cr
$dump_text:=$dump_text+JSON Stringify array(boolean_array_out)+$cr+$cr

$dump_text:=$dump_text+"Output array real_array_out"+$cr
$dump_text:=$dump_text+JSON Stringify array(real_array_out)+$cr+$cr

$dump_text:=$dump_text+"Output array text_array_out"+$cr
$dump_text:=$dump_text+JSON Stringify array(text_array_out)+$cr+$cr

$dump_text:=$dump_text+"Output array object_array_out"+$cr
$dump_text:=$dump_text+JSON Stringify array(object_array_out)+$cr+$cr

$dump_text:=$dump_text+"--"+$cr
$dump_text:=$dump_text+"Pull each type out into a 

Re: v13 - text field Copy/Paste

[Chip Scheide]

1 - 'silt' = style
2 - I am playing with this a bit more and I have found that:

If I paste in the text field when there is already text in the field, 
the newly pasted text confirms to the style sheet.

HOWEVER,

If I paste into an empty text field the text does not seem to conform 
to the style sheet and is larger, 12 point. Also text entered 
subsequent to the paste is ALSO 12 point.
...


On Wed, 18 Jan 2017 16:31:24 -0500, Chip Scheide wrote:
> I am testing an entry form, in this case that the edit menu functions 
> as expected (copy/cut/paste)
> 
> I have a couple of text fields which are displayed on a tab control.
> I enter some text.
> Cut the text
> paste the text
> 
> AND... the pasted text is largerlike from 10 (original) to 12 
> (pasted) points!?!?
> 
> Both text fields exhibit the same behavior. Both text fields are using 
> a silt sheet, which uses (Mac) Lucida Grande at 10 point size.
> 
> Any ideas???
> Thanks
> **
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Re: Query editor in v15

[Chip Scheide]

turn on query path logging?


On Thu, 19 Jan 2017 10:18:16 +1300, Keith Goebel wrote:
> 
>> On 18/01/2017, at 2:40 pm, Keisuke Miyako wrote:
>> you could just activate the "execute on server" method property if 
>> you need that function in your QBF
>> 
>>> 2017/01/18 5:15、Keith Goebel >> > のメール：
>>> If my "execution"assumptions are wrong for any items, please let me know.
> 
> Thanks for your reply.
> That’s what I do now but the advice from Thomas was to change the 
> compatibility settings to “unleash the power”.
> 
> I want to do that, but need to see the doc(s) that clearly explain 
> how the "x by formula" commands will work (i.e.; what each call 
> scenario will do. as per my example calls).
> 
> Is there any such documentation (we’re using 4D v15.2) that you know of?
> 
> I could just test it to see which runs on the Server and which on 
> Client, but any behaviour that is undocumented has more chance of 
> changing in the future.
> Cheers, Keith
> 
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Re: Website development path

[Chip Scheide]

AWESOME!!

Thanks
On Wed, 18 Jan 2017 22:14:27 +0100, Peter Jakobsson wrote:
> Hello ernie
> 
>> But, I have tried four time to 'get a grip' on Active4D, I slam into 
>> text (manuals)  that makes no cense to me and does not empower me to 
>> continue to want to 'learn' this fantastic product
> 
> Indeed, I feel your pain. Some of the documentation and material 
> focuses more on the powerful, fancy stuff that Active4D can do rather 
> than the simple.
> 
> For that reason I’ve created a small demo for you in case you find 
> it more accessible. In the time since you made that post I’ve both 
> cooked my daughter’s dinner and created this 1-page site containing 
> active content generated in pure 4D script written directly into the 
> web page. The beauty of this approach is that it levers what you 
> already know and doesn’t require acquiring a whole new active script 
> skill set. (Clearly for some stuff you always do such as Javascript 
> etc).
> 
> The demo page demonstrates queries, writing data to a table, reading 
> data from the table and outputing to html as well as calling into 
> native 4D methods and commands from the web page.
> 
> What I did:
> 
> 1. Downloaded the Active4D shell from here: 
> http://www.aparajitaworld.com/downloads/
> 2. Created a table and 1 method (the “getRoman” function)
> 3. Opened TextMate and wrote the code you see below
> 4. Saved the page in the “web” folder next to my structure (“
> mypage.a4d”)
> 
> Here’s the finished page output:
> https://s29.postimg.org/892ryx4g7/page.png
> 
> Here’s active web page code containing 4D code written into the html 
> between percent tags:
> https://s24.postimg.org/xwguynfrp/code1.png
> https://s27.postimg.org/hjf1128wz/code2.png
> 
> Here’s the structure:
> https://s29.postimg.org/67cmogc47/structure.png
> 
> Here’s Active4D helping me debug the finished result:
> https://s30.postimg.org/m6sps0p6p/debug.png
> 
> I’ve sent you the demo by PM in case you’d like to explore it. ill 
> be happy to do so for anyone else that wants it.
> 
> Hope that helps although I realise you may already have got past this 
> stage but many people don’t even get that far as they are under the 
> impression that the learning curve is steeper.
> 
> Best Regards
> 
> Peter
> 
> 
> **
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v13 - text field Copy/Paste

[Chip Scheide]

I am testing an entry form, in this case that the edit menu functions 
as expected (copy/cut/paste)

I have a couple of text fields which are displayed on a tab control.
I enter some text.
Cut the text
paste the text

AND... the pasted text is largerlike from 10 (original) to 12 
(pasted) points!?!?

Both text fields exhibit the same behavior. Both text fields are using 
a silt sheet, which uses (Mac) Lucida Grande at 10 point size.

Any ideas???
Thanks
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Re: Website development path

[Keith Goebel]

> On 19/01/2017, at 9:00 am, ernie hilgers wrote:
> …
> Its no use to talk to web developers for that matter because all praise their 
> tools only.  Mention 4D and blank stares or repulsion is the reaction...

That is our experience.

The reason I started this thread was because we had a website developed using 
Java and Flash which used SQL to get the 4D data and TomCat to serve it. It was 
developed outside 4D by a non-4D programmer and needed virtually no 4D code 
changes (apart from a special method to handle login access and a couple of 
others).
This worked very well - he got on with his web work and I got on with mine 
(on-going development of the client/server version).

The web system died (apparently thanks to Java dropping ODBC support) when we 
moved from 4D v13.5 to v15, and we now have to rewrite it (the web system) and 
our new web developer has to decide “using what?" to do it.

I idea of this thread was to find out from other 4D people what system(s) they 
use to develop and deploy their website.
There have been many replies but virtually none that don’t require a 4D 
programmer to be involved to a large extent.

It is looking like the world of web deployment using 4D data is not so diverse 
after all.
Cheers, Keith
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Re: Query editor in v15

[Keith Goebel]

> On 18/01/2017, at 2:40 pm, Keisuke Miyako wrote:
> you could just activate the "execute on server" method property if you need 
> that function in your QBF
> 
>> 2017/01/18 5:15、Keith Goebel > > のメール：
>> If my "execution"assumptions are wrong for any items, please let me know.

Thanks for your reply.
That’s what I do now but the advice from Thomas was to change the compatibility 
settings to “unleash the power”.

I want to do that, but need to see the doc(s) that clearly explain how the "x 
by formula" commands will work (i.e.; what each call scenario will do. as per 
my example calls).

Is there any such documentation (we’re using 4D v15.2) that you know of?

I could just test it to see which runs on the Server and which on Client, but 
any behaviour that is undocumented has more chance of changing in the future.
Cheers, Keith

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Re: Website development path

[ernie hilgers]

On Jan 18, 2017, this was written:

> From: Peter Jakobsson
> 
> Secondly, it has always bamboozled me the amount of non-native technologies 
> that get cited on threads like this when staring us in the face is one that 
> extends 4D’s language seamlessly and faithfully right out onto the web. In 
> that respect alone there can surely be few greater inhibitors to 
> scaleability, productivity and economy than to be working across multiple 
> language platforms instead of one.

> 
> For me, the whole point of 4D is working in a seamless, coherent platform so 
> if I ever jump headlong into this world beyond Active4D it’ll be 4D+Wakanda 
> or a change of career (=retirement ?). Obviously I respect the fact that 
> others have genuine commercial priorities which dictate otherwise.
> 
> Just my 2c !

all comments full of insight and correct, great

But, I have tried four time to 'get a grip' on Active4D, I slam into text 
(manuals)  that makes no cense to me and does not empower me to continue to 
want to 'learn' this fantastic product, Which I had the privilege to be 
introduced to at it's presentation on a summit meeting.  
So I've scoured the internet for text / books / movies to see how one does work 
with this product, but found nothing much that could help me.  

Then if you try again after 1 year or so, there is a new version and the 'old 
ways' are phased out for a 'new way'.  That will keep you frustrated. 

The manuals might be very informative for those already versed in this matter.  
For me, a 4D developer from the first hour and no internet development 
background or any knowledge of oop nor javascript or html5, (I know some 
languages but they don't help here) where does one begin???.  Its no use to 
talk to web developers for that matter because all praise their tools only.  
Mention 4D and blank stares or repulsion is the reaction. 
Now if there were instruction books / movies  etc that will get you somewhere. 
For, why is there soo much literature on javascript, html5, php, python and a 
plethora of others ? because there are hundreds of thousands if not millions of 
users that are looking for reading / learning materials and for those there ARE 
and writers that write books.

You want to have a particular product accepted by the world, make sure you have 
good reading (teaching) material for all levels (beginners to advanced) for 
those that want to learn. Do something on Lynda.com to get the ball going. 

I don't have the time to learn a language like I did in 1986, no books and only 
examples in the language manuals to 'crack' or an example file with a coding 
style according to the level of the developer, try to un-spagetti that !!!   
With the amount of experience gained over the years, it's imperative to get 
results somewhat faster in a new technology since we did in the last century. 

If there are any good how-to books, aka 4D for Dummies or Active4D for dummies 
or any plugin, we all know them, then maybe we see more people using this 
product, otherwise it's stumbling around in the dark and that gets you nowhere 
and the developer nowhere.  Especially for people not living near user groups 
or in foreign countries.   In order to put up a good question, you have to know 
3/4 of the answer already else you start the presenter going into lecture mode. 
 

another 2 cts.   (keep them cents coming..)

ernie hilgers (aruba)
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Re: How to halt execution, to avoid Quit 4D

[Lee Hinde]

On Wed, Jan 18, 2017 at 1:56 AM, Koen Van Hooreweghe  wrote:

> Sorry for jumping in late.
> Maybe there is a default user set in the Structure Settings. Which is not
> the Administrator or Designer.
> Hold the shift key (I think, cannot verify at this moment)  upon opening
> the db will show the user dialog.
>

Koen! That did it. I'm in.

Thanks very much.
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Re: How to halt execution, to avoid Quit 4D

[Lee Hinde]

The point of pointing out the error message was to say it didn't allow me
to trace or edit. (i.e, no structure access.) The error itself was
generated because I pulled out the plugins folder to force an error.

On Tue, Jan 17, 2017 at 7:35 PM, Tim Nevels  wrote:

> On Jan 17, 2017, at 7:40 PM, Lee Hinde wrote:
>
> > I just updated the license with the 2017 license and I still can't get
> in.
> > It's behaving like a compiled system. I get an error alert without
> > edit/trace option.
>
> Hard to tell what is causing the error without seeing the error message
> dialog box with "Details" expanded.
>
> I always include the following as the first 3 lines of code in On Startup
> and On Server Startup:
>
> If (Caps lock)
>TRACE
> End if
>
> This gives you a definite way to bring up the debugger. That way I can
> determine if any of my code has run and caused the error, or it is a plugin
> or 4D specific error.
>
> Have you tried running MSC on the structure file and repair it? That will
> definitely strip out any compiled code, if there is any.
>
> Tim
>
>
>
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Re: Move v12 to v15 or v16

[James Crate]

> On Jan 18, 2017, at 10:00 AM, Chuck Miller  
> wrote:

>> On Jan 18, 2017, at 9:52 AM, James Crate  wrote:
>> 
>> Even v15.3 is not rock-solid on Macs, although it is better than earlier v15 
>> releases. The open file dialog still crashes sometimes (i.e. when choosing a 
>> saved quick report or a folder). The open file dialog crashing may actually 
>> be resolved in V16, since it appears to be related to incomplete 
>> decarbonization, and the R releases (and thus V16) have continued farther 
>> down that path.
>> 
>> The 4D Internet Commands plugin is also unreliable, so if you use that much 
>> you’ll want to be considering a replacement.

> What other info do you have re OS version on Mac. I am having NO problems 
> with 15.2

All clients are macOS 10.9-10.11, most are 10.11.  The Mac Mini server is on 
10.11.

If your users aren’t using the open file dialog much, like choosing saved quick 
reports and searches, then they won’t experience those crashes. If you’re not 
doing thousands of http requests with 4D IC during a client session, you also 
likely won’t experience the crashes I saw with that. 

Jim Crate

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Re: LOST INDEX

[stardata.info]

I dont remember of to have cancelled one indexing


Il 18/01/2017 17:23, 4d_tech-requ...@lists.4d.com ha scritto:

Message: 10
Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2017 16:37:28 +0100
From: Herr Alexander Heintz
To: 4D iNug Technical<4d_tech@lists.4d.com>
Subject: Re: LOST INDEX
Message-ID:<639c53a8-e8c4-443d-8638-cb57ba691...@heintz.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8


I have a 4d application in V13.2 on windows.
I notice that in the structure database i have lost all the index settings in 
my tables.
So all the indexed fields now are not indexed.
I haven't change anything, how is possible this?

Have you canceled an indexing run for a datafile?
This will remove all indexes in the structure, at least it used to last I 
checked…


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RE: Website development path

[Justin Will]

In response to David's statement...

Question: "We can't use preemptive threads."
Answer: "So what."

I have been in a situation where because 4D could not handle preemptive 
threading we ended up setting up a RAIC with NGINX in front of it.  NGINX load 
balanced the requests to multiple 4D workstations to handle requests because of 
some peak load issues where a single thread was literally killing us.  The RAIC 
mostly solved the problem but, managing a bunch of computers vs 1 server that 
could easily handle the same load in a pre-emptive environment was a hassle.

My reason for bringing this lack of non-preemptive support for A4D, NTK etc. 
was simply to make sure people are considering all aspects of the decisions 
they are making.

With that said I,  have probably done 30+ 4D databases on the web and have done 
it in just about every imaginable way (WS4D, Lightning, 4DWebPack 2.0, 4D For 
Flex, A4D, NTK, ITK, Contextual, Non-Contextual etc).  In only 1 case was the 
lack of pre-emptive support an issue.

Thanks
Justin Will
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Re: LOST INDEX

[Herr Alexander Heintz]

> I have a 4d application in V13.2 on windows.
> I notice that in the structure database i have lost all the index settings in 
> my tables.
> So all the indexed fields now are not indexed.
> I haven't change anything, how is possible this?

Have you canceled an indexing run for a datafile?
This will remove all indexes in the structure, at least it used to last I 
checked…

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LOST INDEX

[stardata.info]

Hi all,

I have a 4d application in V13.2 on windows.
I notice that in the structure database i have lost all the index 
settings in my tables.

So all the indexed fields now are not indexed.
I haven't change anything, how is possible this?

Thanks
Ferdinando
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Re: Move v12 to v15 or v16

[Chuck Miller]

What other info do you have re OS version on Mac. I am having NO problems with 
15.2

Regards

Chuck

 Chuck Miller Voice: (617) 739-0306
 Informed Solutions, Inc. Fax: (617) 232-1064   
 mailto:cjmillerinformed-solutions.com 
 Brookline, MA 02446 USA Registered 4D Developer
   Providers of 4D and Sybase connectivity
  http://www.informed-solutions.com  

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> On Jan 18, 2017, at 9:52 AM, James Crate  wrote:
> 
> Even v15.3 is not rock-solid on Macs, although it is better than earlier v15 
> releases. The open file dialog still crashes sometimes (i.e. when choosing a 
> saved quick report or a folder). The open file dialog crashing may actually 
> be resolved in V16, since it appears to be related to incomplete 
> decarbonization, and the R releases (and thus V16) have continued farther 
> down that path.
> 
> The 4D Internet Commands plugin is also unreliable, so if you use that much 
> you’ll want to be considering a replacement.
> 
> The only thing you can do is test, and accept that unless you can test with 
> production-level workloads you will likely still experience some problems 
> only after releasing into production regardless of which version you choose.

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Re: Move v12 to v15 or v16

[James Crate]

On Jan 18, 2017, at 2:04 AM, Paul Lovejoy  wrote:
> 
> We’ve been spending quite a bit of time preparing our 4D databases to move 
> from v12 to v15. We originally had planned to transit via v13 but since we’re 
> 100% Mac, we saw that numerous problems with recent Mac OS X versions are 
> causing severe compatibility issues, ie crashes. So we’re skipping v13 and 
> v14 to move directly to v15, although we did test heavily on v13 also. 
> 
> Recently I’ve seen a lot of activity surrounding v16 and one of my colleagues 
> suggested skipping straight to v16. We have about 200 client connections and 
> the databases are mission critical. The largest is about 100gb. My 30 years 
> of experience with 4D tell me NOT to jump straight to v16. Does anyone have 
> any reason to believe it’s worth taking the leap? Is v16 rock solid?

Even v15.3 is not rock-solid on Macs, although it is better than earlier v15 
releases. The open file dialog still crashes sometimes (i.e. when choosing a 
saved quick report or a folder). The open file dialog crashing may actually be 
resolved in V16, since it appears to be related to incomplete decarbonization, 
and the R releases (and thus V16) have continued farther down that path.

The 4D Internet Commands plugin is also unreliable, so if you use that much 
you’ll want to be considering a replacement.

The only thing you can do is test, and accept that unless you can test with 
production-level workloads you will likely still experience some problems only 
after releasing into production regardless of which version you choose.

Jim Crate

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RE: Move v12 to v15 or v16

[Dennis, Neil]

> Does anyone have any reason to believe it’s worth taking the leap? Is v16 
> rock solid?

I have been using 16.0 in house for a few months now and found absolutely no 
issues with it. Granted every version will have some minor defects, but I 
haven't seen any of them. I will be upgrading one of my clients to use 4D v16.0 
in the next week or so.

Neil








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Re: 32 Bit or 64 Bit ? 4D Write

[Chuck Miller]

Thanks, but we do not generally going into production with r releases. Hard 
enough to get this client to upgrade as testing is so immense

Regards


Chuck

 Chuck Miller Voice: (617) 739-0306
 Informed Solutions, Inc. Fax: (617) 232-1064   
 mailto:cjmillerinformed-solutions.com 
 Brookline, MA 02446 USA Registered 4D Developer
   Providers of 4D and Sybase connectivity
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> On Jan 17, 2017, at 9:16 PM, Wayne Stewart  wrote:
> 
> Chuck,
> 
> Cross table reports now in v16r2:
> 
> http://blog.4d.com/4d-v16-r2-beta-test-starts-today/
> 
> Not certain if you're on the leading or the bleeding edge though.
> 
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Wayne
> 
> 
> Wayne Stewart
> about.me/waynestewart
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On 18 January 2017 at 12:40, Chuck Miller
>  wrote:
>> HI Tim,
>> 
>> Thanks for response. No clients killall be 32 bit. We can not move to total 
>> 64 bit since as far as I know quick report (64) doe snot have cross table 
>> reports, which we use and we have too much code in 4d write to move to pro. 
>> Testing would be too much at this point
>> 
>> Regards
>> 
>> Chuck
>> 
>> Chuck Miller Voice: (617) 739-0306
>> Informed Solutions, Inc. Fax: (617) 232-1064
>> mailto:cjmillerinformed-solutions.com
>> Brookline, MA 02446 USA Registered 4D Developer
>>   Providers of 4D and Sybase connectivity
>>  http://www.informed-solutions.com
>> 
>> This message and any attached documents contain information which may be 
>> confidential, subject to privilege or exempt from disclosure under 
>> applicable law.  These materials are intended only for the use of the 
>> intended recipient. If you are not the intended recipient of this 
>> transmission, you are hereby notified that any distribution, disclosure, 
>> printing, copying, storage, modification or the taking of any action in 
>> reliance upon this transmission is strictly prohibited.  Delivery of this 
>> message to any person other than the intended recipient shall not compromise 
>> or waive such confidentiality, privilege or exemption from disclosure as to 
>> this communication.
>> 
>>> On Jan 17, 2017, at 7:52 PM, Timothy Penner  wrote:
>>> 
>>> 
>>> You plan to use 4D Server 64 bit to take advantage of more ram; makes 
>>> perfect sense... but your curious if there is anything you need to know 
>>> about 4D Write before switching to use 4D Server 64 bit (I assume this is 
>>> for Mac since 4D Server 64 bit has been available for Windows since v12)?
>>> 
>>> I can only think of the following restrictions:
>>> * 4D Write cannot run on 4D Server 64 bit for Mac, so don’t execute the 
>>> commands on the server.
>>> * There is no problem using 4D Write on 32 bit Clients that are connected 
>>> to a 64 bit Server, you just can't execute the commands on the Server
>>> 
>>> Since it is just the 4D Server you are changing from 32 bit to 64 bit, then 
>>> there isn't really anything else about 4D Write to be made aware of... 
>>> Nothing else in regards to 4D Write is really affected when changing from 
>>> 4D Server32 bit to 4D Server 64 bit.
>>> 
>>> On the other hand, if you plan to swap to 64 bit Clients also, then you 
>>> will need to handle the conversion of the 4D Write documents and 4D Write 
>>> Areas prior to switching (as 4D Write is unavailable with 64 bit Client).
>> 
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> FAQ:  

Re: Website development path

[Peter Jakobsson]

On 18 Jan 2017, at 15:01, John DeSoi  wrote:

> It is a good point, but a lot of other options allow you to leverage open 
> source features rather than re-inventing them in 4D. For example, Drupal has 
> a great feature set out of the box and I'm not going to re-implement all of 
> that in 4D anytime soon. I'd rather just figure out how to synchronize the 
> data.

Yes, this is a huge point but maybe on a different subject. A long-time 
customer of mine recently did that and ditched their 4D (cCommerce) solution 
altogether for that reason. (I think they went for Magento actually).

The issue there is that there is no comprehensive, open source enterprise grade 
ERP/eCommerce solution for 4D like there is for other platforms (Dynamics, Odo 
etc).

I see that as increasingly being the challenge more than any technology 
limitation.

Peter
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Re: Move v12 to v15 or v16

[Magnus Torell]

Hi Paul,

I did a move from v12 to v15R5 3 weeks ago. Mainly mac clients and an xServe
with Accelsior pcie drive.
Not so big database as yours, but 30 users and 10 Gb datafile.
Mission critical also.
Regarding database and stability everything has been running
very well.
I had to do some changes regarding the web compatibility setting
"Remove / on unknown urls". The setting did not change, but in some
places logic failed. In the overall picture nothing to bother about at all.

We did have a timeframe round new year so it became v15R5.
Not fully updated if 16 is in v16.0 or .1 or if there is a next release R1.
I would have chosen the successor to R5 today.

Using v15R5 mac and pc, 32 bit, legacy network.

Best
Magnus Torell



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Re: Website development path

[John DeSoi]

> On Jan 18, 2017, at 3:04 AM, Peter Jakobsson  wrote:
> 
> Secondly, it has always bamboozled me the amount of non-native technologies 
> that get cited on threads like this when staring us in the face is one that 
> extends 4D’s language seamlessly and faithfully right out onto the web. In 
> that respect alone there can surely be few greater inhibitors to 
> scaleability, productivity and economy than to be working across multiple 
> language platforms instead of one.

It is a good point, but a lot of other options allow you to leverage open 
source features rather than re-inventing them in 4D. For example, Drupal has a 
great feature set out of the box and I'm not going to re-implement all of that 
in 4D anytime soon. I'd rather just figure out how to synchronize the data.

My other problem with 4D as a public facing web server is the system is 
unusable during backups. And you have to bring down the website to perform 
software updates.

John DeSoi, Ph.D.

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Re: How to halt execution, to avoid Quit 4D

[Koen Van Hooreweghe]

Hi Lee,

Sorry for jumping in late.
Maybe there is a default user set in the Structure Settings. Which is not the 
Administrator or Designer.
Hold the shift key (I think, cannot verify at this moment)  upon opening the db 
will show the user dialog.

HTH
Koen

Op 17-jan.-2017, om 21:24 heeft Lee Hinde  het volgende 
geschreven:

> Is there any other reason the debugger would be blocked from coming up? Now
> I'm having the problem with an old v13 database.  I know it's an
> interpreted database (no compiled choice in the open dialog).




Compass bvba
Koen Van Hooreweghe
Kloosterstraat 65
9910 Knesselare
Belgium
tel +32 495 511.653

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Re: Website development path

[Peter Jakobsson]

On 18 Jan 2017, at 00:13, David Adams  wrote:

> Question: "We can't use pre-emptive threads."
> Answer: "So what."
> 
> Seriously, so what. Does it matter in your case? Does *anyone* have a case
> where it matters.

Just to chime in on this, I can see both David’s side and Justin’s side and 
Aparajita’s side.

First of all, Active4D is now probably one of the most scaleable web serving 
solutions available for 4D. The reason for that is that it now supports 
centralised cookie handling on the server which means you can run a load 
balanced site running across multiple 4D Clients, not having to route sessions 
through any client in particular and scale it to kingdom come - far more so 
than you could with just pre-emptivethreading alone.

Secondly, it has always bamboozled me the amount of non-native technologies 
that get cited on threads like this when staring us in the face is one that 
extends 4D’s language seamlessly and faithfully right out onto the web. In that 
respect alone there can surely be few greater inhibitors to scaleability, 
productivity and economy than to be working across multiple language platforms 
instead of one.

Meanwhile, I think that Justin’s point is significant in that you would get 
more serving capacity from a genuinely pre-emptive web server that also 
supported active content. (Though if you just stick Apache in front then the 
advantage is marginal).

Finally, I think David is right that you could probably take 95% of 4D 
applications today, run them in a hypothetically pre-emptive environment and 
not notice a blind bit of difference (unless you were writing Arcade games in 
4D ;) ).

For me, the whole point of 4D is working in a seamless, coherent platform so if 
I ever jump headlong into this world beyond Active4D it’ll be 4D+Wakanda or a 
change of career (=retirement ?). Obviously I respect the fact that others have 
genuine commercial priorities which dictate otherwise.

Just my 2c !

Peter

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Re: Move v12 to v15 or v16

[Keisuke Miyako]

all the bug reports I received since the v16 release so far fall into one of 
the following categories:

1.  it concerns Windows 64-bit Mono (which is a preview release)
2.  it concerns 32-bit version on a MacBook Pro with Sierra and a touch of 
genius
3.  it concerns v15 too

so I would say v16 (64-bit, if circumstances allow), definitely.


Keisuke Miyako
Sales Engineer

4D Japan
1-10-2 Dogenzaka, Shibuya TH BLDG 6F
Shibuya Tokyo Japan 150-0043
Email: keisuke.miy...@4d.com
Tel:   03-6427-8441
Fax:   03-6427-8449
Web:   www.4D.com/jp

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