Re: ​Someone help me out, how do you get good information out of 4D

[David Adams via 4D_Tech]

Hey Kirk, thanks for the thoughtful post.

And, just for the record, I'm not a CS guy. I was an English major and have
never taken any sort of CS class. But i'm good at learning on my own.

On Wed, Jul 12, 2017 at 1:03 PM, Kirk Brooks via 4D_Tech <
4d_tech@lists.4d.com> wrote:

> David,
> Interesting initial post - like marmalade on a flakey croissant, a little
> sweet and a little bitter. I've hammered a similar nail before: what is
> 4D's vision of itself? What is the target market? Why does such a fabulous
> product remain so unknown? Why isn't there better documentation? Let's
> build the user base... There seems to be a resolute determination not to
> pursue any of that sort of thing. To my American brain that seems just
> weird. My wife has been very helpful in getting me to accept just how
> "French" 4D is. These aren't prime motivators. I think Americans really get
> jazzed about getting bigger, richer, and just having 'more'. 4D seems to be
> about control and being happy. I don't know of many other software
> companies that have been active for 30+ years and remained as closely held
> as 4D has. OK, maybe some of us would fit that profile but we're pretty
> small. Heck 4D itself isn't that big at ~$20million US. A number of their
> customers are larger. I don't know if you've had a chance to see Laurent in
> the past few years but every time I do I see a really happy guy. JPR is the
> most affable curmudgeon I've ever met. I've never seen Thomas Maul not
> smiling. And so on. Perhaps Atavan is part of the compensation package. But
> the folks who matter in the company all seem pretty content with the way
> things are and so I think that's the way things will be. Is it so bad being
> happy in a world on the edge of oblivion at the hands of morons?
>
> Personally I think 4D's weaknesses and strengths are side by side with each
> other. Or it's like a uroboros for a darker metaphor of the R release
> cycle. The thing now is what made 4D cool 30 years ago - it's a single
> package that allows you to do some of almost everything. You got your
> relational database engine, you got your PHP, you got your Web thingy, you
> got your JSON stuff, you got your graphical interface designer whizy, we
> got plugins, we got components. Many of these are quite well developed and
> some are just bolted on. You don't like the way we do databases then go
> ahead and write your own database inside of ours. Heck now that we can
> query a JSON field it's almost like noSQL, ar you can mimic noSQL. 4D
> doesn't try to lead anything because there's no payoff with a small user
> base and in some areas always lags (I'm looking at you security guys). This
> makes it attractive to folks looking for a well equipped playground. Again,
> it's always been that way.
>
> The most common 4D origin story I hear is similar to my own: it was 1987
> and I was doing some work for a company that needed a database to do a
> specific thing, just like Steve said, and they were using Macs and I said
> "I can do that" because I'd read an article in MacWorld or something
> talking about the cool things you could do with this new program called 4D
> and this was a great excuse to go spend the $500 or so to buy it. The thing
> is that's about the only origin story I really hear. I know there are
> others that's just the one I've heard most. In a very roundabout way this
> brings me back to the frustrations I hear in your posts from time to time.
> And you're not alone, just perhaps more willing to go on record with them.
> You're like a real CS guy and while I can muddle around in the 4D middle
> ground for the rest of my life you drill down into stuff, 'cause you know
> about it, (and here's another metaphor) it's like hopping the fence at
> Disneyland and finding there aren't real buildings on Main Street. So
> that's why there's no actual records in City Hall, for example. (Stretching
> it even further.)
>
> Reading back over this I see I sort of hijacked your post a little. Sorry
> about that. For me I decided to stop trying to get 4D to do anything and
> just decide for myself whether it was worth my effort to use it. As is.
> Like any other relationship - accept the other as they are or leave. I
> never successfully changed anyone but myself. And funny enough the more I
> focused on that the happier I became with 4D. And you are totally right
> about the JSON parser. I mean really.
>
> I will echo Steve's comment about how valuable I find your contributions
> here and the times we've exchanged emails off line. The iNug is better with
> folks like you.
>
> On Tue, Jul 11, 2017 at 6:19 PM, David Adams via 4D_Tech <
> 4d_tech@lists.4d.com> wrote:
>
> > You're right, I need more tools - and I'm find with that. 4D isn't a data
> > analysis tool and I actually accept that part. But, yeah, I do get
> > frustrated by some things, like, an incomplete JSON parser? Makes no
> sense
> > to me.
> >
> > Anyway, 4D has a ton of features I love and I'm 

Re: ​Someone help me out, how do you get good information out of 4D

[David Adams via 4D_Tech]

I just wanted to post something about my post. In a word: D'oh!

I woke up this morning to realize that I'd posted my message to the list,
which wasn't what I intended. I meant to post it to a bunch of old-timers I
stay in touch with when I need a grumble. I've mis-posted tings on various
lists down the years by doing a "reply to all" when I meant "reply to
sender.:" My practice normally is to just live with the embarrassment and
move on. Posts like this one usually seem silly because, well, I already
sent the post. In this case, I think I should post something so here it is.

First up, I was meaning to send this along to a bunch of old-timers who
know my context. So, when I was complaining about the culture inside of 4D,
I was talking about the US branch *25 years ago*. So, anything I said based
on that isn't relevant today and posting it here was rude. So, sorry for
that and do your best to ignore me on that. The people I meant to write to
know perfectly well my history and what I'm talking about - and know that
it's form a quarter of a century ago. (By now, virtually no one from those
days is even around.)

I'm a big 4D fan and still contribute to the effort. I've been trying to
post decent information here and even got together with some people to
write some new tech notes (forthcoming.) Why? Because I like to help out.
We just wrote up the tech notes and sent them to 4D like that out of the
blue. So, I'm in the "friends" column, or should me.

Do I get worked up about waffle and BS answers? Or no answers? Yes, yes I
do. But like I've been saying, if you want to be an angry old man shouting
at clouds, you can't just wake up one day and do it. It's like anything, if
you want it, you have to train, train early, and train hard.

http://knowyourmeme.com/photos/1045815
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Re: ​Someone help me out, how do you get good information out of 4D

[Kirk Brooks via 4D_Tech]

David,
Interesting initial post - like marmalade on a flakey croissant, a little
sweet and a little bitter. I've hammered a similar nail before: what is
4D's vision of itself? What is the target market? Why does such a fabulous
product remain so unknown? Why isn't there better documentation? Let's
build the user base... There seems to be a resolute determination not to
pursue any of that sort of thing. To my American brain that seems just
weird. My wife has been very helpful in getting me to accept just how
"French" 4D is. These aren't prime motivators. I think Americans really get
jazzed about getting bigger, richer, and just having 'more'. 4D seems to be
about control and being happy. I don't know of many other software
companies that have been active for 30+ years and remained as closely held
as 4D has. OK, maybe some of us would fit that profile but we're pretty
small. Heck 4D itself isn't that big at ~$20million US. A number of their
customers are larger. I don't know if you've had a chance to see Laurent in
the past few years but every time I do I see a really happy guy. JPR is the
most affable curmudgeon I've ever met. I've never seen Thomas Maul not
smiling. And so on. Perhaps Atavan is part of the compensation package. But
the folks who matter in the company all seem pretty content with the way
things are and so I think that's the way things will be. Is it so bad being
happy in a world on the edge of oblivion at the hands of morons?

Personally I think 4D's weaknesses and strengths are side by side with each
other. Or it's like a uroboros for a darker metaphor of the R release
cycle. The thing now is what made 4D cool 30 years ago - it's a single
package that allows you to do some of almost everything. You got your
relational database engine, you got your PHP, you got your Web thingy, you
got your JSON stuff, you got your graphical interface designer whizy, we
got plugins, we got components. Many of these are quite well developed and
some are just bolted on. You don't like the way we do databases then go
ahead and write your own database inside of ours. Heck now that we can
query a JSON field it's almost like noSQL, ar you can mimic noSQL. 4D
doesn't try to lead anything because there's no payoff with a small user
base and in some areas always lags (I'm looking at you security guys). This
makes it attractive to folks looking for a well equipped playground. Again,
it's always been that way.

The most common 4D origin story I hear is similar to my own: it was 1987
and I was doing some work for a company that needed a database to do a
specific thing, just like Steve said, and they were using Macs and I said
"I can do that" because I'd read an article in MacWorld or something
talking about the cool things you could do with this new program called 4D
and this was a great excuse to go spend the $500 or so to buy it. The thing
is that's about the only origin story I really hear. I know there are
others that's just the one I've heard most. In a very roundabout way this
brings me back to the frustrations I hear in your posts from time to time.
And you're not alone, just perhaps more willing to go on record with them.
You're like a real CS guy and while I can muddle around in the 4D middle
ground for the rest of my life you drill down into stuff, 'cause you know
about it, (and here's another metaphor) it's like hopping the fence at
Disneyland and finding there aren't real buildings on Main Street. So
that's why there's no actual records in City Hall, for example. (Stretching
it even further.)

Reading back over this I see I sort of hijacked your post a little. Sorry
about that. For me I decided to stop trying to get 4D to do anything and
just decide for myself whether it was worth my effort to use it. As is.
Like any other relationship - accept the other as they are or leave. I
never successfully changed anyone but myself. And funny enough the more I
focused on that the happier I became with 4D. And you are totally right
about the JSON parser. I mean really.

I will echo Steve's comment about how valuable I find your contributions
here and the times we've exchanged emails off line. The iNug is better with
folks like you.

On Tue, Jul 11, 2017 at 6:19 PM, David Adams via 4D_Tech <
4d_tech@lists.4d.com> wrote:

> You're right, I need more tools - and I'm find with that. 4D isn't a data
> analysis tool and I actually accept that part. But, yeah, I do get
> frustrated by some things, like, an incomplete JSON parser? Makes no sense
> to me.
>
> Anyway, 4D has a ton of features I love and I'm fluent in it enough to get
> things done quickly. It's absolutely my go-to tool for grinding and
> reprocessing data. It's great for that. And I don't think that's just
> because I know it already, I think it's actually pretty great at connecting
> to a huge range of systems and tweaking stuff.
>

-- 
Kirk Brooks
San Francisco, CA
===

*The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to 

Re: Someone help me out, how do you get good information out of 4D

[David Adams via 4D_Tech]

I just wanted to post something about my post. In a word: D'oh!

I woke up this morning to realize that I'd posted my message to the NUG,
which wasn't what I intended. I meant to post it to a bunch of old-timers I
stay in touch with when I need a grumble. I've mis-posted tings on various
lists down the years by doing a "reply to all" when I meant "reply to
sender.:" My practice normally is to just live with the embarrassment and
move on. Posts like this one usually seem silly because, well, I already
sent the post. In this case, I think I should post something so here it is.

First up, I was meaning to send this along to a bunch of old-timers who
know my context. So, when I was complaining about the culture inside of 4D,
I was talking about the US branch *25 years ago*. So, anything I said based
on that isn't relevant today and posting it here was rude. So, sorry for
that and do your best to ignore me. The people I meant to write to know
perfectly well my history and what I'm talking about - and know that it's
form a quarter of a century ago. (By now, virtually no one from those days
is even around.) They also think that I'm too cranky.

I'm a big 4D fan and still contribute to the effort. I've been trying to
post decent information here and even got together with some people to
write some new tech notes (forthcoming.) Why? Because I like to help out.
We just wrote up the tech notes and sent them to 4D like that out of the
blue. So, I'm in the "friends" column, or should me.

Do I get worked up about waffle and BS answers? Or no answers? Yes, yes I
do. Will I push back on that stuff? Absolutely. Will I push back on a clear
answer I don't like? Sometimes, but I'll always be happy to have the
information.

So, yeah, I can be cranky on the lists. (Not so much in person.) But like
I've been saying, if you want to be an angry old man shouting at clouds,
you can't just wake up one day and do it. It's like anything, if you want
it, you have to train, train early, and train hard!

http://knowyourmeme.com/photos/1045815
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Re: ​Someone help me out, how do you get good information out of 4D

[David Adams via 4D_Tech]

Steve,

Wow! Thank you so, so much for your beautiful post. I loved it all, and I
think that your assessment is pretty much right on the money on all counts.
And, yes, I am a very quick typist ;-) I am also sleeping great these days,
but thanks for your concern there. I grew up in an environment I now
recognize is a bit weird. The way we were taught to deal with intellectual
questions was to thrash them out until you got a clear answer. Personal
insults/ Not cool. Cheap arguments like "it's a secret" or "someone smarter
than you knows better", well, let's just say you only ever tried any of
that nonsense once as the rest of the group would tear at you like a pack
of dogs. Unpleasant. So, I'm all for pushing ahead until I get an answer
that makes sense.

You're right, I need more tools - and I'm find with that. 4D isn't a data
analysis tool and I actually accept that part. But, yeah, I do get
frustrated by some things, like, an incomplete JSON parser? Makes no sense
to me.

Anyway, 4D has a ton of features I love and I'm fluent in it enough to get
things done quickly. It's absolutely my go-to tool for grinding and
reprocessing data. It's great for that. And I don't think that's just
because I know it already, I think it's actually pretty great at connecting
to a huge range of systems and tweaking stuff.

But, again, thanks for your long and thoughtful post, very much appreciated.

P.S. I did a department-type document scanning program a few years back and
it worked great. Used PDF Viewer for the PDFs in the system but, otherwise,
it was pretty much just 4D. After much thought, I used the 'store data
outside of data file' option and it worked out well. I had some concerns
about the data getting scrambled after a recovery or something, so I also
had a nightly job that exported all of the documents into a standard file
structure tree. So, a bunch of nested folders grouped by client (or
whatever) with the documents and an identifier. That made it easier to
sleep at night ;-) It also gave us a traversable directory of documents
that could be drag-and-dropped (or written to) a Web server directory. Kind
of handy!
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Re: Object field storage: Questions and alternatives

[David Adams via 4D_Tech]

> I think it was unfortunate that  "some thing like a hash table" was
mentioned,
> in passing, when the object feature was explained in detail.

Thanks *very* much for the clarification.

Of course now, we don't even know that about object field indexes ;-)

> it was simply a demo to show how using an object property name, which is
case sensitive,
> is much faster than "Find in array". that was all.

Presumably, the comparison was with an unsorted array. A binary search is
competitive with a hash table, depending a lot on the hash. And binary
searches are great for range searches whereas hash tables are *not*
optimized for ranges. So even here "faster" depends on what you're
searching for and why.
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Re: Object field storage: Questions and alternatives

[David Adams via 4D_Tech]

Keisuke,

You are *the* man on character encoding stuff in 4D, so thanks for adding
your observations.

I'm likely to be working with nothing but low ASCII, Latin1 data, for what
it's worth. Just simple names for keys and numbers for most values.

As far as the planning quesiton goes, I'm just trying to get some rules of
thumb, not totally perfect numbers. And I think that I have that now:

* 4D stores objects/text in UTF-16.

* The data is stored in a binary format.

* The binary format isn't really meaningfully more compact than the
original text. (In fact, it may be larger for some reason.)

That's enough for planning, if correct.

And, for the application part:

* An object field can be searched in various ways, so long as you use 4D's
supported styles.

* These styles of JSON are not (meant to be) space efficient.

* If you want to do space-efficient, valid JSON, I don't think 4D offers
any options. Nor does its parser. You need NTK to do very compact, valid
JSON.

I haven't used 4D's object fields much (obviously), but I've done a ton
with JSON with various formats at scale. I've had to rework formats
repeatedly in the past to address space and performance constraints. This
is one reason I'd like a more complete JSON parser and code set natively in
4D. NTK is great, but not everyone has it and, in my experience, it's
significantly slower than 4D's native JSON tools. (They're remarkably fast.)
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Re: Object field storage: Questions and alternatives

[Keisuke Miyako via 4D_Tech]

one more thing,

it is not incorrect to do something like

{
"\u0066\u006F\u006F":"\u0062\u0063\u0072"
}

instead of {"foo":"bar"}

it's an extreme example,
but it happens all the time in non-ASCII JSON.

I may prefer one over the other,
but really I don't care, and nor should I care,
because it would be wrong to assume a particular implementation.

in hindsight,

I think it was unfortunate that  "some thing like a hash table" was mentioned,
in passing, when the object feature was explained in detail.

it gave the wrong signal that there was some kind of clever optimisation going 
on,
but 4D will not talk about it in detail.

that was not the context.

it was simply a demo to show how using an object property name, which is case 
sensitive,
is much faster than "Find in array". that was all.

it had nothing to do with QUERY BY ATTRIBUTE,
it had nothing to do with automatic indexes,
it definitely had nothing to do with optimising storage.







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Re: Object field storage: Questions and alternatives

[Keisuke Miyako via 4D_Tech]

Hello,

I think it would not be telling the full story if you just focus on how UTF-16 
takes double the size for standard ASCII, and therefore uneconomic.
and I am not speaking because UTF-16 actually takes less space than UTF-8 for 
Japanese text.

one must take into account that standard Windows API (wide characters) and 
macOS API (NSString) both use UTF-16, as does the file system (paths).
so its make sense that 4D uses UTF-16 for internal string representation, since 
it can be used directly with native APIs.

if UTF-8 was used for storage, then the data file may be smaller,
but 4D would have to do the conversion back to UTF-16 before loading it to 
memory.

> 2017/07/12 9:03、David Adams via 4D_Tech <4d_tech@lists.4d.com> のメール：
> In 4D, I think you're always
> using UTF-16, is that right?




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Re: ​Someone help me out, how do you get good information out of 4D

[steve simpson via 4D_Tech]

>
> From: David Adams 
>
> For anyone that's seen me on the forums in recent months, let's just
> say...what I'm doing isn't working. I keep raising what I think are pretty
> basic issues and I just end up with a ton of heat back from 4D and not a
> lot of information. It's exhausting and renews my disgust.
> ​[snip]
>
> Advice appreciated, on-list or off. I know I tend to sound cranky and that
> can rub people the wrong way.
> ​[snip]
>

​David, I do not use the Fr. forums because I honestly cannot understand
them any better than you can evidently, nor get any real information from
them. Whether that is simply because I'm more used to this list, I can't
say, but that forum is totally inscrutable to me. So I'm not familiar with
the "heat" you receive over there.​ That said

I'm probably not alone in saying that I always look forward to your posts
here, whether they have anything to do with my own issues at the moment or
not. I always find some nugget that I find thought provoking or useful or
worthy of filing away for future use. And generally I just get a kick out
of your intellect and ability to delve deeply and let it all hang out. I do
find myself worrying about you sometimes though, as to whether you get
enough sleep, or just how healthy it might be to go so deep for so long on
this or that single issue. Maybe it is just that you are a way faster
typist than I am. But ... anyway...

I get the feeling that you use 4D (recently at least) for much different
projects than I (or most of us?) do. 4D to me, is not a "big data" kind of
product. To me it is more like an "office automation" product. A
secretarial pool type product. A company or departmental "get this work
done like THIS" type product. Whereas (at least recently) I get the
impression that you are trying to stuff 4D  into some sort of big data
manipulation role that might be a pretty frustrating task. And demanding
big data tools like you are needing these days might seem a bit off track
to the guys in France who have been making this "officey" kind of thing for
so many years. I see 4D's real strength in the developer's ability to craft
a really high end user interface. But recently you seem to have been
frustrated in it's inability to "scale" to something...different -- more
"headless" -- something I haven't yet figured out where you are going.

Big data dismissals above aside, I'm knee deep for the last two years in a
project to digitize USA county courthouses. That means millions and
millions and millions of scanned (and then digitized) court documents with
massive amounts of data stored in searchable fields whereby ordinary title
insurance secretarial types can find (and receive locally) documents they
need (for a closing for instance). This requires massive data stores with
really easy data access by normal non-tech type people. It requires an
extremely facile "database system" that the developer can use to craft
multitudes of import routines with a high level scripted environment (every
county court clerk has his own ideas about format), as well as an easy user
environment for legal expert tech staff to massage that data into usable
digital formats -- and an easy way to move that data to web environments to
make it available to the hoi polloi. So I understand your frustrations of
"big data" needs. (One single state county can entail 12+TB of assets
available to 4D!) On the other hand, I don't have to do much with that data
- no really complex slice and dice operations; no complicated accounting
mathematics; no historical comparison graphing operations, etc. Its "big"
data in many ways, but mundane data in most other ways, with most needs
tilted toward normal everyday user access. I just cannot find a better
platform for all of this together than 4D. (Though I'd be really interested
in those products you are turning to as I'm sure some of them might be
useful.) I could go in search of multiple products to handle all this data
-- but on the whole I want to keep my life simple with ONE product I know
really really well. When confronted with a project that would clearly
unambiguously demand other systems I'd have to learn well to succeed with,
I turn down that project. 4D is not for everything and everyone. Nor am I.
I decided long ago that I could not be everything for everyone so I
decided to be good with one thing and pretty thin on other things. Sort of
the opposite of your typical computer science program these days. And
somewhat different from your own quest lately to be really good at
EVERYTHING, it sometimes sounds like. That is what I love about your posts,
but what I also worry about for you when I read those long beautiful emails
you send out. Like your brain is on overdrive. Like I could never get work
done and write that much unless I never slept and was a super fast typist.
I admire that about you.

But... to get back to your core point, I think you are demanding that
France come up with a product that 

Re: Object field storage: Questions and alternatives

[David Adams via 4D_Tech]

On Wed, Jul 12, 2017 at 6:41 AM, Lee Hinde via 4D_Tech <4d_tech@lists.4d.com
> wrote:

> On Tue, Jul 11, 2017 at 3:10 AM, David Adams via 4D_Tech <
> 4d_tech@lists.4d.com> wrote:
>
> > * Use a header object that describes the 'columns' and then use compact
> > JSON arrays for the data. Rob Laveaux reminded me about this option some
> > months back and it's a really decent compromise.
> >
>
> That seems like a good option - it's the same, mostly, as a TSV/CSV. But it
> seems like JSON isn't appropriate for your storage needs (compactness
> trumps all), irrespective of how 4D stores it internally.
>
>
Hey Lee!

It depends. In the system I just described with
4D+MySQL+Mustache+PHP+DataTables+D3, some of the pre-rendered data was
stored as JSON and some was stored as TSV and converted to JSON on the fly.
The example I brought up here wasn't about my big flabby arrays - there are
lots of ways to rework those. But bytes are bytes. Imagine that you had
100KB of sensible JSON, not silly JSON. It's the behavior of the storage
engine that I'm interested in.

As to storing JSON in a more compact format, well, I think you then lose
all of the nifty search, etc. features that 4D offers. At that point,
there's no strong argument for using JSON at all. I guess it's a bit easier
to parse than plain text, so there's that. Actually, TSV is super easy to
parse.

As far as I can tell, price of admission for the enticing object field
features is that you lay your JSON out as pure name-value pairs (at
whatever level of nesting.) If that's how it works, fine. I just want to
make sure so that I can make the right design choices. I tend to iterate
through implementations from easier to more optimized. This whole question
was just an iteration in that sort of process. Day 1: Stuff everything into
an object field. OMG, it's huge! That's the point where the thread came
in...but now I think I have a grip on the storage costs of JSON (however
formatted) in 4D's engine.
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Re: Object field storage: Questions and alternatives

[David Adams via 4D_Tech]

Okay, I'm back and think that I get it now. And, yeah, storage space with
4D object fields is definitely a planning issue. Headline result: Copy and
paste a 1MB JSON from a text editor and save it in 4D and it's likely to
take about 2MB to store. More below. Corrections welcomed. I've also posted
my 'findings' (current notions) on the forums on France where, hopefully,
an errors I've made will be addressed. (I've experienced some vigorous
correction already on that thread, so clearly folks aren't being shy about
telling me when I'm wrong.)

On this thread, I'm also adding a story and some comments at the bottom for
background and thoguht. The take-away from that is if you've got a small
system, you'll probably never care about this and that if you have a big
system you very likely might care a lot.

Oh, and I posted a link to a feature request I made but Cannon Smith made a
better one already, please vote for it:

Option To Compress Object (and Text) Fields
http://forums.4d.fr/Post/FR/17748608/1/17748609#17748609

Okay, as far as I can tell, the answer I was after is really simple:

Question: How much room do objects require for storage in an object field?

Answer: Very nearly the amount the object-as-JSON-without-whitespace would
take stored as UTF-16.

Put another way, if you take a 1MB JSON in a text editor, paste it into an
object field and save it, it's likely to take roughly 2MB to store.

Below are several points that I think are right (or close to it), but
improvements and corrections are welcome:

* Object fields don't store straight JSON, they use some kind of binary
format.

* The binary format seems to take up very nearly as much space as the raw
JSON would, stripped of whitespace. (Padding between elements.)

* It is likely that the storage space is double what you would expect
because 4D tables always use UTF-16. If you need to store large character
data, then UTF-16 is what you need. If you don't need to store large
character data, then UTF-16 doubles the storage requirements for all your
alpha/text/object data. If you're using something like SQLLite,
MySQL/MariaDB, or PostgreSQL, you can specify the character set on a
per-table basis. (All support UTF8, all but SQLite support even smaller
character encodings.) So, if you're dealing with pure ASCII-like data, you
could potentially save it without compression in another character set that
takes 1/4 or 1/2 as much space as UTF-16. In 4D, I think you're always
using UTF-16, is that right?

* I don't care what the binary format is. No one else cares either ;-)

* The binary format may change in future versions. Again, no one minds or
cares about the details.

* There are a lot of ways to format and store JSON. Some are inefficient
(like the example I was using), some are more compact. This is a pretty
well-travelled subject in the world as JSON is so common, regardless of
language. I'll skip discussing how to pack and organize JSON as it's a
different subject entirely from how the JSON is stored and handled by the
DB engine.

* If you want to use 4D's object field magic features, your data needs to
be laid out in name-value pairs. And the name-value pairs are *stored in
the data without compression.* You can see them right in the hex of the 4DD.

* If you don't need to use 4D's object field magic features, you can
rewrite your JSON to be more compact. Or, for that matter, you can convert
it to something even more compact than that and store it as text.

It would be great to have the option to compress JSON stored by 4D, so long
as it allows indexed searching to work properly. The idea is that if you're
using 4D to as a repository for flabby data (logs, instrumentation reports,
etc.) or pre-rendered JSON for export/serving, you don't typically need to
search into it, indexes are just fine. There's a cost to the
compression/decompression, but that could pay for itself quickly in some
situations. I put in a request like this and then Cannon Smith posted a
link to a better-written existing request:

Option To Compress Object (and Text) Fields
http://forums.4d.fr/Post/FR/17748608/1/17748609#17748609

Please vote for Cannon's request.
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Re: Object field storage: Questions and alternatives

[Lee Hinde via 4D_Tech]

On Tue, Jul 11, 2017 at 3:10 AM, David Adams via 4D_Tech <
4d_tech@lists.4d.com> wrote:

> * Use a header object that describes the 'columns' and then use compact
> JSON arrays for the data. Rob Laveaux reminded me about this option some
> months back and it's a really decent compromise.
>

That seems like a good option - it's the same, mostly, as a TSV/CSV. But it
seems like JSON isn't appropriate for your storage needs (compactness
trumps all), irrespective of how 4D stores it internally.
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Re: 4D Not Seeing A Mounted Network Drive

[Chuck Miller via 4D_Tech]

what is the error? It may be do to permissions? It may be due to syntax. I 
create folders all the time on mounted volumes

Regards

Chuck

 Chuck Miller Voice: (617) 739-0306
 Informed Solutions, Inc. Fax: (617) 232-1064   
 mailto:cjmillerinformed-solutions.com 
 Brookline, MA 02446 USA Registered 4D Developer
   Providers of 4D and Sybase connectivity
  http://www.informed-solutions.com  

This message and any attached documents contain information which may be 
confidential, subject to privilege or exempt from disclosure under applicable 
law.  These materials are intended only for the use of the intended recipient. 
If you are not the intended recipient of this transmission, you are hereby 
notified that any distribution, disclosure, printing, copying, storage, 
modification or the taking of any action in reliance upon this transmission is 
strictly prohibited.  Delivery of this message to any person other than the 
intended recipient shall not compromise or waive such confidentiality, 
privilege or exemption from disclosure as to this communication. 

> On Jul 11, 2017, at 9:19 AM, John S. Poteat via 4D_Tech 
> <4d_tech@lists.4d.com> wrote:
> 
> I have a system where I am trying to create a folder or write a file to a 
> mounted network drive.
> When I try to create a folder or write a file to that drive, 4D comes back 
> with an error. If I try to
> do it to a physical drive on the computer, it has no problem.
> 
> Has anyone ran into this problem before and found a solution?
> 
> The system is running on Windows Server 2012R2 and using 4D version 15.2 HF1.
> 
> Thanks in advance for your help.

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Re(2): 4D Write Pro interface plug in or component?

[Don Lapin via 4D_Tech]

Hi Ingo,

The sample db generates a range-check error on startup (v16 R3 Windows, US), 
and other errors after cancelling various menu actions: "improper file name 
during export", "operation not compatible with the two arguments", "...is an 
invalid name for a file", "boolean argument expected", etc. 

The menus run together visually ("File Edit Display Insert..."), possibly due 
to the font used for the English version(?) The menu drop-downs do not stop 
displaying on a second click, which is the expected UI behavior. When I click 
into a selection of text, the toolbar does not display the style of the 
selection, but instead remains on the last menu item selected. I haven't found 
where styles can be defined or modified. There do not appear to be options for 
file types in the Import... and Export... menu items.

Regarding 4D Write Pro itself, the "4D_Write_Pro_v16.pdf" document lists a 
minuscule selection of 23 available commands...compared to perhaps 100(?) in 4D 
Write. And the document doesn't provide parameters or information on how to use 
the commands. Surely I must be missing something, because there doesn't even 
appear to be a way to procedurally insert text or define styles.

I admire the commitment of the DDD Group in beginning to address such an 
obvious foible as the UI in the 4D Write Pro offering. It's a start - thank you!

But it shouldn't be left to the community to provide a usable interface for a 
feature which has been touted for the past two years. 

I don't want to receive scores of phone calls asking where the File menu is, or 
how to export to Microsoft Word. So staying with the old plug-in is the only 
option for now. I'll worry about customers with 64-bit OSs some time in the 
future.

Thanks for your ideas and suggestions,
Don


>Hi,
>
>have a look at 
>
>HTH
>Ingo Wolf
>
>


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Re: Quick report strange behavior

[Alan Chan via 4D_Tech]

We do use v13.6 on Windows 8 and 10 without your problem. Did you try 13.6 
instead of 13.3?

v11 of 4D does exhibit problem you mentioned. I'm not sure if the problem 
exists in 13.3 or not.

Alan Chan

4D iNug Technical <4d_tech@lists.4d.com> writes:
>Hi all,
>
>No one use 4D V13 on windows 8?
>
>Thanks
>
>Ferdinando
>
>
>Il 11/07/2017 01:02, stardata.info ha scritto:
>>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> Quick report on 4D V13.3 on windows, work fine until windows 7.
>>
>> From Windows 8 quick report not work properly, like explained below.
>>
>> Someone have a solution?
>>
>> Thanks
>> Ferdinando
>>
>> Il 10/07/2017 16:18, 4d_tech-requ...@lists.4d.com ha scritto:
>>> Message: 11
>>> Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2017 14:14:15 +0200
>>> From: "stardata.info"
>>> To:4d_tech@lists.4d.com
>>> Subject: Quick report strange behavior
>>> Message-ID:<259a189d-28ac-3559-e814-54525f6e3...@stardata.info>
>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
>>>
>>> Hi all,
>>>
>>> in one pc i use 4d v13 on windows and wheni create a report with Quick
>>> Report editor  i see the print in very little characters.
>>> On others pc is ok. If i use other softwares all is ok, and even if i
>>> create a report into the 4d application all is ok.
>>> The issue in only if i use 4D Quick Report.
>>>
>>> Someone have a solution?
>>>
>>> Thanks
>>> Ferdinando
>>
>
>**
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Re: Quick report strange behavior

[stardata.info via 4D_Tech]

Hi Chip,

Can you give me the link to use for search?

Many thanks

Ferdinando


Il 11/07/2017 20:17, Chip Scheide ha scritto:

Yes, Ferdinando
that is the issue
- everything is small.

search the archives, others have reported (and I think) resolved the
issue.

On Tue, 11 Jul 2017 19:29:15 +0200, stardata.info wrote:

Hi,

Quick report when work on windows 7 work fine, when run on windows 8
give this problems.

All report are very small this not depend of the font used

Thanks
/Ferdinando/

Il 11/07/2017 18:12, Chip Scheide ha scritto:

No I do not.
I have seen posts regarding font size issues and windows 7?, 8?, 10?

Since I do not use 4D on these systems I do  not pay a lot of attention.
search the archives on the 4D KB, or gmane, or Nabble

sorry, best I can offer
Chip


On Tue, 11 Jul 2017 17:50:45 +0200, stardata.info via 4D_Tech wrote:

Hi all,

No one use 4D V13 on windows 8?

Thanks

Ferdinando


Il 11/07/2017 01:02, stardata.info ha scritto:

Hi all,

Quick report on 4D V13.3 on windows, work fine until windows 7.

  From Windows 8 quick report not work properly, like explained below.

Someone have a solution?

Thanks
Ferdinando

Il 10/07/2017 16:18, 4d_tech-requ...@lists.4d.com ha scritto:

Message: 11
Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2017 14:14:15 +0200
From: "stardata.info"
To:4d_tech@lists.4d.com
Subject: Quick report strange behavior
Message-ID:<259a189d-28ac-3559-e814-54525f6e3...@stardata.info>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed

Hi all,

in one pc i use 4d v13 on windows and wheni create a report with Quick
Report editor  i see the print in very little characters.
On others pc is ok. If i use other softwares all is ok, and even if i
create a report into the 4d application all is ok.
The issue in only if i use 4D Quick Report.

Someone have a solution?

Thanks
Ferdinando

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---
Gas is for washing parts
Alcohol is for drinkin'
Nitromethane is for racing



---
Gas is for washing parts
Alcohol is for drinkin'
Nitromethane is for racing




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Re: Quick report strange behavior

[Chip Scheide via 4D_Tech]

Yes, Ferdinando
that is the issue
- everything is small.

search the archives, others have reported (and I think) resolved the 
issue.

On Tue, 11 Jul 2017 19:29:15 +0200, stardata.info wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> Quick report when work on windows 7 work fine, when run on windows 8 
> give this problems.
> 
> All report are very small this not depend of the font used
> 
> Thanks
> /Ferdinando/
> 
> Il 11/07/2017 18:12, Chip Scheide ha scritto:
>> No I do not.
>> I have seen posts regarding font size issues and windows 7?, 8?, 10?
>> 
>> Since I do not use 4D on these systems I do  not pay a lot of attention.
>> search the archives on the 4D KB, or gmane, or Nabble
>> 
>> sorry, best I can offer
>> Chip
>> 
>> 
>> On Tue, 11 Jul 2017 17:50:45 +0200, stardata.info via 4D_Tech wrote:
>>> Hi all,
>>> 
>>> No one use 4D V13 on windows 8?
>>> 
>>> Thanks
>>> 
>>> Ferdinando
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Il 11/07/2017 01:02, stardata.info ha scritto:
 Hi all,
 
 Quick report on 4D V13.3 on windows, work fine until windows 7.
 
  From Windows 8 quick report not work properly, like explained below.
 
 Someone have a solution?
 
 Thanks
 Ferdinando
 
 Il 10/07/2017 16:18, 4d_tech-requ...@lists.4d.com ha scritto:
> Message: 11
> Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2017 14:14:15 +0200
> From: "stardata.info"
> To:4d_tech@lists.4d.com
> Subject: Quick report strange behavior
> Message-ID:<259a189d-28ac-3559-e814-54525f6e3...@stardata.info>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
> 
> Hi all,
> 
> in one pc i use 4d v13 on windows and wheni create a report with Quick
> Report editor  i see the print in very little characters.
> On others pc is ok. If i use other softwares all is ok, and even if i
> create a report into the 4d application all is ok.
> The issue in only if i use 4D Quick Report.
> 
> Someone have a solution?
> 
> Thanks
> Ferdinando
>>> **
>>> 4D Internet Users Group (4D iNUG)
>>> FAQ:  http://lists.4d.com/faqnug.html
>>> Archive:  http://lists.4d.com/archives.html
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>> ---
>> Gas is for washing parts
>> Alcohol is for drinkin'
>> Nitromethane is for racing
>> 
>> 
> 
---
Gas is for washing parts
Alcohol is for drinkin'
Nitromethane is for racing 
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Re: Interesting(?) Tales of Coding Was : Request for tech note

[Alan Chan via 4D_Tech]

I wrote a Get Prime routine in 56 lines of 4D code years ago for fun to 
generate prime number in array of whatever number users enter as parameter.

Alan Chan

4D iNug Technical <4d_tech@lists.4d.com> writes:
>https://i.redd.it/fjcv9evg6u8z.png

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Re: Quick report strange behavior

[stardata.info via 4D_Tech]

Hi,

Quick report when work on windows 7 work fine, when run on windows 8 
give this problems.


All report are very small this not depend of the font used

Thanks
/Ferdinando/

Il 11/07/2017 18:12, Chip Scheide ha scritto:

No I do not.
I have seen posts regarding font size issues and windows 7?, 8?, 10?

Since I do not use 4D on these systems I do  not pay a lot of attention.
search the archives on the 4D KB, or gmane, or Nabble

sorry, best I can offer
Chip


On Tue, 11 Jul 2017 17:50:45 +0200, stardata.info via 4D_Tech wrote:

Hi all,

No one use 4D V13 on windows 8?

Thanks

Ferdinando


Il 11/07/2017 01:02, stardata.info ha scritto:

Hi all,

Quick report on 4D V13.3 on windows, work fine until windows 7.

 From Windows 8 quick report not work properly, like explained below.

Someone have a solution?

Thanks
Ferdinando

Il 10/07/2017 16:18, 4d_tech-requ...@lists.4d.com ha scritto:

Message: 11
Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2017 14:14:15 +0200
From: "stardata.info"
To:4d_tech@lists.4d.com
Subject: Quick report strange behavior
Message-ID:<259a189d-28ac-3559-e814-54525f6e3...@stardata.info>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed

Hi all,

in one pc i use 4d v13 on windows and wheni create a report with Quick
Report editor  i see the print in very little characters.
On others pc is ok. If i use other softwares all is ok, and even if i
create a report into the 4d application all is ok.
The issue in only if i use 4D Quick Report.

Someone have a solution?

Thanks
Ferdinando

**
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Alcohol is for drinkin'
Nitromethane is for racing




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Re: 4D Write Pro interface plug in or component?

[Keith Culotta via 4D_Tech]

As mentioned in Ortwin's link, the Widget and the WPro area are separate.  
Another alternative would be to put the Widget in a floating window OPEN WINDOW 
and DIALOG(*).  Most parts of the Widget worked when I tested that (I think I 
had to use the variable name), but there were problems with the Expressions 
page.

Keith - CDI

> On Jul 11, 2017, at 5:50 AM, Ortwin Zillgen via 4D_Tech 
> <4d_tech@lists.4d.com> wrote:
> 
> http://.mettre.de/wp/the-real-estate-blues/#english
> 
> Grüße/regards
> Ortwin Zillgen 

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Re: Quick report strange behavior

[Chip Scheide via 4D_Tech]

No I do not.
I have seen posts regarding font size issues and windows 7?, 8?, 10?

Since I do not use 4D on these systems I do  not pay a lot of attention.
search the archives on the 4D KB, or gmane, or Nabble

sorry, best I can offer
Chip


On Tue, 11 Jul 2017 17:50:45 +0200, stardata.info via 4D_Tech wrote:
> Hi all,
> 
> No one use 4D V13 on windows 8?
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Ferdinando
> 
> 
> Il 11/07/2017 01:02, stardata.info ha scritto:
>> 
>> Hi all,
>> 
>> Quick report on 4D V13.3 on windows, work fine until windows 7.
>> 
>> From Windows 8 quick report not work properly, like explained below.
>> 
>> Someone have a solution?
>> 
>> Thanks
>> Ferdinando
>> 
>> Il 10/07/2017 16:18, 4d_tech-requ...@lists.4d.com ha scritto:
>>> Message: 11
>>> Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2017 14:14:15 +0200
>>> From: "stardata.info"
>>> To:4d_tech@lists.4d.com
>>> Subject: Quick report strange behavior
>>> Message-ID:<259a189d-28ac-3559-e814-54525f6e3...@stardata.info>
>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
>>> 
>>> Hi all,
>>> 
>>> in one pc i use 4d v13 on windows and wheni create a report with Quick
>>> Report editor  i see the print in very little characters.
>>> On others pc is ok. If i use other softwares all is ok, and even if i
>>> create a report into the 4d application all is ok.
>>> The issue in only if i use 4D Quick Report.
>>> 
>>> Someone have a solution?
>>> 
>>> Thanks
>>> Ferdinando
>> 
> 
> **
> 4D Internet Users Group (4D iNUG)
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---
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Alcohol is for drinkin'
Nitromethane is for racing 
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Re: Quick report strange behavior

[stardata.info via 4D_Tech]

Hi all,

No one use 4D V13 on windows 8?

Thanks

Ferdinando


Il 11/07/2017 01:02, stardata.info ha scritto:


Hi all,

Quick report on 4D V13.3 on windows, work fine until windows 7.

From Windows 8 quick report not work properly, like explained below.

Someone have a solution?

Thanks
Ferdinando

Il 10/07/2017 16:18, 4d_tech-requ...@lists.4d.com ha scritto:

Message: 11
Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2017 14:14:15 +0200
From: "stardata.info"
To:4d_tech@lists.4d.com
Subject: Quick report strange behavior
Message-ID:<259a189d-28ac-3559-e814-54525f6e3...@stardata.info>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed

Hi all,

in one pc i use 4d v13 on windows and wheni create a report with Quick
Report editor  i see the print in very little characters.
On others pc is ok. If i use other softwares all is ok, and even if i
create a report into the 4d application all is ok.
The issue in only if i use 4D Quick Report.

Someone have a solution?

Thanks
Ferdinando




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4D Not Seeing A Mounted Network Drive

[John S. Poteat via 4D_Tech]

I have a system where I am trying to create a folder or write a file to a 
mounted network drive.
When I try to create a folder or write a file to that drive, 4D comes back with 
an error. If I try to
do it to a physical drive on the computer, it has no problem.

Has anyone ran into this problem before and found a solution?

The system is running on Windows Server 2012R2 and using 4D version 15.2 HF1.

Thanks in advance for your help.

Thanks,
John Poteat
jpote...@gmail.com 


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Re: 4D Write Pro interface plug in or component?

[Ortwin Zillgen via 4D_Tech]

http://.mettre.de/wp/the-real-estate-blues/#english

Grüße/regards
Ortwin Zillgen
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Re: Packages-building an installer

[James Crate via 4D_Tech]

On Jul 11, 2017, at 7:12 AM, Nigel Greenlee via 4D_Tech <4d_tech@lists.4d.com> 
wrote:
> 
> I wondered if anyone else has used ‘Packages’ for creating an installer(maybe 
> you can suggest a similar product). I am creating a simple installer for an 
> in-house application-i will rather give the users a link to an installer than 
> a .zip as they have a habit of installing stuff on the desktop.(this is on 
> OSX only)
> 
> I know this is slightly ‘off topic'
> 
> I am however having two problems:-
> 
> The first is with permissions. If i zip the .4dbase up and send it to a 
> machine the installed app runs fine. However when i create an installer 
> package(with user persmissions set to Owner Root and user Admin(i also tried 
> user Wheel) The installed application does not have the correct permissions 
> and wants to open read only. I wondered if anyone has a suggestion to 
> overcome that.

In Packages, in the Payload tab, you can specify the permissions you would like 
the files to have, including user and group. Keep in mind that only users with 
administrator privileges are in the “wheel” group, while all user accounts 
should be in the “staff” group. You can also just make the datafile writable by 
everyone.

Jim Crate

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Re: Interesting(?) Tales of Coding Was : Request for tech note

[Chip Scheide via 4D_Tech]

https://i.redd.it/fjcv9evg6u8z.png

now THAT is hard work.
I wonder if it was complete...
Chip
---
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Alcohol is for drinkin'
Nitromethane is for racing 
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Someone help me out, how do you get good information out of 4D

[David Adams via 4D_Tech]

For anyone that's seen me on the forums in recent months, let's just
say...what I'm doing isn't working. I keep raising what I think are pretty
basic issues and I just end up with a ton of heat back from 4D and not a
lot of information. It's exhausting and renews my disgust.

It's possible that I'm misreading them. Individually, everyone has always
seemed pretty darn nice to me. But I do remember when I worked at the US
office for 4 years that they openly held there customers in contempt. It
was real, customers where just "whiners."

So, how do you guys get decent information out of France? Or do you? Or do
you increasingly do what so many people have done and use other tools from
vendors with a positive approach to customer service? That's what I've been
doing so dealing with 4D is just that much more painful.

Advice appreciated, on-list or off. I know I tend to sound cranky and that
can rub people the wrong way. So, feel free to tell me the truth in
private, if you like.

Thanks!
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Re: 4D Write Pro interface plug in or component?

[Benedict, Tom via 4D_Tech]

John DeSoi writes:

>> On Jul 10, 2017, at 5:55 PM, John Baughman via 4D_Tech 
>> <4d_tech@lists.4d.com> wrote:
>>
>> Pro looks to be a good upgrade, but I hate the fact that it comes without a 
>> typical word processor user interface built in. I just don't have time to 
>> create the interface.

>Agree. The application I am working on only used it for online help and one 
>template based table. It was much easier (and less expensive) to convert 
>everything to use markdown instead.

We used 4D Write for years as a styled text editor with rulers. It didn't need 
any DB integration. Finally moved that functionality to a Javascript Text 
Editor. Works great.


Tom Benedict
Optum Inc
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[blog] new post concerning de- and encoding of IMAP Mailbox names (modified UTF-7)

[Herr Alexander Heintz via 4D_Tech]

Hi Folks,

in case anyone ever encountered the fun of having to decode funny mailbox names 
as used in IMAP, here may be something useful for you:

http://blog.heintz.net/holy-imap-folder-batman/ 


Cheers
Alex
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Re: Packages-building an installer

[Keisuke Miyako via 4D_Tech]

I believe there are some nice applications that makes the process easier,
but you can still use basic command line tools to deploy a built 4D desktop 
application for macOS.

 if you want to create an installer package, the steps are:

1. sign the application and move it to /Applications (locally)
2. create a signed package of the signed application

snippets:

1.

codesign -s "Developer ID Application: keisuke miyako (Y69CWUC25B)" sample.app

2.

pkgbuild --component /Applications/sample.app --sign "Developer ID Installer: 
keisuke miyako (Y69CWUC25B)" /Users/miyako/Desktop/sample.pkg

Note: you use a different certificate for 1 and 2. (2 is an installer 
certificate. since this is not an App Store deployment, you use pkgbuild, not 
productbuild)

https://developer.apple.com/library/content/documentation/IDEs/Conceptual/AppDistributionGuide/MaintainingCertificates/MaintainingCertificates.html

alternatively, you could use a disk image instead of an installer package.

1. create a disk image of the application
2. create a signed disk image of the application

snippets:

1.

hdiutil create -srcfolder sample.app sample.dmg

2.

codesign -s "Developer ID Application: keisuke miyako (Y69CWUC25B)" sample.dmg

if the application or installer or disk image is not signed, it will be 
translocated and launch in read-only mode.

https://developer.apple.com/library/content/technotes/tn2206/_index.html#//apple_ref/doc/uid/DTS40007919-CH1-TNTAG17

miyako



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Re: 4D Write Pro interface plug in or component?

[Jeremy French via 4D_Tech]

Also https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_fFafP-hgs=em-subs_digest


> On Jul 11, 2017, at 6:41 AM, Ingo Wolf via 4D_Tech <4d_tech@lists.4d.com> 
> wrote:
> 
> have a look at  >

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Re: Packages-building an installer

[Spencer Hinsdale via 4D_Tech]

Assuming you are talking about Apple's PackageMaker, you can use a shell script 
to set read-write.  For the Package there is a Scripts tab with an entry for 
Postinstall that will run after install.  I think you are using this for 
AppleScript already.

You can create a shell script by going to Terminal and typing "pico" to run the 
text editor.

Then type a script like:
#!/bin/sh
chmod -R 777 '/Applications/MyApp'

Type control-x (shown as ^x at the bottom of the window) to eXit and follow 
prompts to save as something like "myscript".

Back in Package, Scripts, Postinstall select your script (/Users/me/myscript).  
This script just says use bourne shell (bin/sh) set all contents (-R) to 
read-write for all (777).

hth,


Spencer


> On Jul 11, 2017, at 4:12 AM, Nigel Greenlee via 4D_Tech 
> <4d_tech@lists.4d.com> wrote:
> 
> Hi
> 
> I wondered if anyone else has used ‘Packages’ for creating an installer(maybe 
> you can suggest a similar product). I am creating a simple installer for an 
> in-house application-i will rather give the users a link to an installer than 
> a .zip as they have a habit of installing stuff on the desktop.(this is on 
> OSX only)
> 
> I know this is slightly ‘off topic'
> 
> I am however having two problems:-
> 
> The first is with permissions. If i zip the .4dbase up and send it to a 
> machine the installed app runs fine. However when i create an installer 
> package(with user persmissions set to Owner Root and user Admin(i also tried 
> user Wheel) The installed application does not have the correct permissions 
> and wants to open read only. I wondered if anyone has a suggestion to 
> overcome that.
> 

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Packages-building an installer

[Nigel Greenlee via 4D_Tech]

Hi

I wondered if anyone else has used ‘Packages’ for creating an installer(maybe 
you can suggest a similar product). I am creating a simple installer for an 
in-house application-i will rather give the users a link to an installer than a 
.zip as they have a habit of installing stuff on the desktop.(this is on OSX 
only)

I know this is slightly ‘off topic'

I am however having two problems:-

The first is with permissions. If i zip the .4dbase up and send it to a machine 
the installed app runs fine. However when i create an installer package(with 
user persmissions set to Owner Root and user Admin(i also tried user Wheel) The 
installed application does not have the correct permissions and wants to open 
read only. I wondered if anyone has a suggestion to overcome that.

The second problem I have i with making an icon in the doc. I have written an 
Applescript which runs after the install. and this should make an icon in the 
Doc and relaunch the doc. If i run the Applescript it works fine but when i 
attach it to my installer to run automatically it seems to fail. I wondered if 
anyone might know a reason why the script might fail when it is executed from 
an installer.

(the script could be better)
set the_choice to "Add Application" as string
if the_choice is "false" then error number -128
try
if word 1 of the_choice is "Add" then

set persistent_what to "persistent-apps"
set this_file to "/applications/xx.app" as string<<—here we 
have the app name
do shell script "defaults write com.apple.dock " & 
persistent_what & " -array-add 
'tile-datafile-data_CFURLString"
 & this_file & 
"_CFURLStringType0'"

end if

tell application "Dock"
quit
repeat
try
activate
exit repeat
end try
end repeat
end tell
on error error_message number error_number
if error_number is not -128 then -- not user cancelled
display dialog "Error: " & error_number & return & error_message
end if
end try

Thanks to anyone who can point me in the right direction.



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Re: Object field storage: Questions and alternatives

[David Adams via 4D_Tech]

I was making some related comments on the forums in France today and
Rob Laveaux, a hero of the 4D world, made a great technical post:

Hi David,

Please elaborate what makes you conclude this?

You seem to imply that objects fields are stored in JSON format, but I'm
sorry ... that is not true. Take a hex-editor to examine your datafile and
you will see they are stored in a binary format. I just want to set this
straight, before it is taken as a fact by others.

Of course, if you store large objects, they occupy disk space. Just like
large text, picture or blob fields.

Compression of data is possible, but it comes at a cost: the cost of
decompression and recompression. This takes CPU time, which is more costly
than the cost of disk space. But I agree, it would be nice to have data
compression as an option.

Greetings,

Rob


I wanted to repost it here for the sake of the archives because, according
to Rob, I'm starting an erroneous superstition. I'm still in the dark about
the real-world story and trade-offs in 4D'S object fields (I tired them for
the first time yesterday), and hopefully we'll get some more details out of
the folks in France.

For now, it looks like, based on what Rob says, thing aren't as dire as I
feared - but I don't have an easy way to quantify that yet. Not keen to get
out a hex editor and start experimenting/counting when France could just
tell us.
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Re: 4D Write Pro interface plug in or component?

[Ingo Wolf via 4D_Tech]

Hi,

have a look at 

HTH
Ingo Wolf


>Hello,
>
>I have just started looking at the 4D Write Pro interface. 
>
>Currently I have an "old" (current) 4D Write area embedded into a fairly 
>complex form (25 tabs, lots of fields and listboxes, etc.). The program 
>generates complex, multi-page documents procedurally using 4D Write commands.
>
>When the users work with the current 4D Write interface, it looks like a 
>normal word processor, and they know what to do without help. Click into some 
>text to see the style sheet. There's adequate room to see the document and its 
>margins.
>
>The "new" interface consists of a stylized widget on the right side, which 
>consumes about one third of the available form space. No menus. The ruler is 
>three times as thick as the old one. There don't appear to be open and save 
>options. 
>
>Tech support suggested that if I wanted a more conventional interface, I could 
>create it myself.
>
>Is anyone aware of a plug-in or component that provides a normal interface for 
>4D Write Pro? Or is 4D Write Pro actually intended for some other use than its 
>predecessor?
>
>Thanks,
>Don 


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