RE: Anyone using v16 in WAN

[Timothy Penner via 4D_Tech]

Hi Chuck,

> OK what about when I connect from a v11 single user via sql row  64 BIT Mac 
> server. What network layer does it use.

Your v11 SingleUser app is definitely using the legacy network, it does not 
know about the New Network Layer.
Your 64 bit Mac Server is definitely using the new network layer, it does not 
support the legacy network.

But that doesn't matter -

The new network layer handles communications between 4D Server and remote 4D 
machines (clients).
The new network layer does not handle SQL/ODBC/Web/SOAP connections; only 
Client-Server.

So, connecting via SQL/ODBC connections should not be affected by the network 
layer or running on Mac 64 bit...
However, if you were to try to connect v11 as a 4D Client to the 64 bit Mac 
Server you would get error -19191


Refs:
http://doc.4d.com/4Dv16R2/4D/16-R2.1620/Network-and-Client-Server-options.300-3176533.en.html#1882948
http://doc.4d.com/4Dv15/4D/15/Compatibility-page.300-2045494.en.html
http://kb.4d.com/assetid=77427


-Tim



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RE: Anyone using v16 in WAN

[Dennis, Neil via 4D_Tech]

> OK what about when I connect from a v11 single user via sql row  64 BIT Mac 
> server.
> What network layer does it use. I have been running tests with v15 latest hot 
> fix. I have many disparate connection types.

If I had to take a guess, you are using the new network layer (as that is all 
the 64 Bit Mac knows)

There are some differences in client and SQL connections as they connect to 
different ports. However also keep in mind they are not changing the network 
protocol but the implementation of the network protocol. Something like an SQL 
connection shouldn't need to change based on what the server is speaking.

Agreed it would be a good topic for the World Tour

Neil


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RE: Anyone using v16 in WAN

[Timothy Penner via 4D_Tech]

Apparently my last post still wasn't clear so let me try again -


The new network layer is *required* if you are using:
* 4D Server 64 bit on Mac
* 4D 64 bit on Mac
* 4D 64 bit on Win
^ If you use any of these in your deployment you MUST use the new network layer 
because these products do not "understand" the legacy network, they only 
"understand" the new network layer.


The new network layer is *optional* if you are using:
* 4D Server 64 bit on Win
* 4D Server 32 bit on Mac
* 4D Server 32 bit on Win
* 4D 32 bit on Mac
* 4D 32 bit on Win
^ the products listed above can use *EITHER* the legacy network or the new 
network.



-Tim




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Re: Anyone using v16 in WAN

[Charles Miller via 4D_Tech]

On Tue, Apr 4, 2017 at 3:38 PM, Charles Miller 
wrote:

> This is true, you need to use the new network layer with a 64 bit MAC
>> server... legacy network doesn't exist.
>>
>>
>> Neil
>>
>>
> Ohm thanks to all. This was not how I understood it.


OK what about when I connect from a v11 single user via sql row  64 BIT Mac
server. What network layer does it use. I have been running tests with v15
latest hot fix. I have many disparate connection types.

4D single user to server to transfer data from inside the same network and
in the same building
4D single user to server to transfer data from inside the same network but
not in same building (connections speeds and types varies)

4D built clients connecting  to server from inside the same network and in
the same building
4D built clients connecting  to server from outside (WAN).

How does this change things and what to do about setting timeouts for this
type of setup

Thanks and boy do I wish this was more clear. I will be asking this at 4D
class on Thursday and Friday in Boston. I will report on answers I get there

Regards
Chuck


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Re: Anyone using v16 in WAN

[Charles Miller via 4D_Tech]

On Tue, Apr 4, 2017 at 3:37 PM, Dennis, Neil via 4D_Tech <
4d_tech@lists.4d.com> wrote:

>
> This is true, you need to use the new network layer with a 64 bit MAC
> server... legacy network doesn't exist.
>
>
> Neil
>
>
Ohm thanks to all. This was not how I understood it.

Regards

Chuck


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RE: Anyone using v16 in WAN

[Dennis, Neil via 4D_Tech]

> (Mac and Windows clients) and connect to a MAC server using 64 bit

This is true, you need to use the new network layer with a 64 bit MAC server... 
legacy network doesn't exist.

Neil








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Re: Anyone using v16 in WAN

[Jeffrey Kain via 4D_Tech]

Since you're using a 64-bit Mac server you have to use the new network layer. 
If you had a 64-bit Windows server with 32-bit clients, you could use the 
legacy (i.e. reliable) network layer.

> On Apr 4, 2017, at 2:13 PM, Charles Miller via 4D_Tech <4d_tech@lists.4d.com> 
> wrote:
> 
> OK I am a little confused. Ifs I build clients using 32 bit volume (Mac and
> Windows clients) and connect to a MAC server using 64 bit server, the new
> network layer is always used? or not? I thought 32 bit volume desktops did
> *NOT* support the new network layer

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RE: Anyone using v16 in WAN

[Dennis, Neil via 4D_Tech]

> OK I am a little confused. Ifs I build clients using 32 bit volume (Mac and 
> Windows clients) and 
> connect to a MAC server using 64 bit server, the new network layer is always 
> used? or not? 
> I thought 32 bit volume desktops did
> *NOT* support the new network layer

That would be 4D 32 bit, legacy network not required. Legacy network may not 
even be available... but absolutely not required.

Does that help?

Neil




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RE: Anyone using v16 in WAN

[Timothy Penner via 4D_Tech]

> Yes. You only need the new network layer to support 64-bit 4D on Mac.

The new network layer is required (legacy network not supported) if you are 
using:

* 4D Server 64 bit on Mac
* 4D 64 bit on Mac
* 4D 64 bit on Win

The new network layer is not required (legacy network supported) if you are 
using:

* 4D Server 64 bit on Win
* 4D Server 32 bit on Mac
* 4D Server 32 bit on Win
* 4D 32 bit on Mac
* 4D 32 bit on Win

-Tim



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Re: Anyone using v16 in WAN

[Jeffrey Kain via 4D_Tech]

Yes. You only need the new network layer to support 64-bit 4D on Mac. 

> On Apr 4, 2017, at 12:54 PM, Timothy Penner via 4D_Tech 
> <4d_tech@lists.4d.com> wrote:
> 
> Hi Tim,
> 
>>> I think it is important to investigate whether the instability is specific 
>>> to application code or not.
>>> 
>>> for instance, it is possible to create a bare bone copy of you database 
>>> with the export structure command. you can then open a copy of your 
>>> production data with that structure file.
>>> 
>>> if you have no issues using the database in user mode over the same 
>>> network, then perhaps some methods are choking the network in a way that 
>>> does not happen over the legacy layer.
> 
>> So is this a new feature of v16 and the new network layer? Are you saying 
>> that is is OK and acceptable for 4D v16 — using the new network layer — to 
>> drop a client connection simply because a method is running and choking the 
>> network? A developer can write some code that will kill the network 
>> connection?
>> Or are you saying that this is really an indication of a bug in v16 and the 
>> new network layer. That 4D should never disconnect 4D Client due to code 
>> running that “chokes” the network.

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Re: Anyone using v16 in WAN

[Tim Nevels via 4D_Tech]

On Apr 4, 2017, at 11:02 AM, Neil Dennis wrote:

> I found the new net work layer unusable as well. During heavy loads 4D will 
> quit responding. I use legacy network and things work great. This was all 
> done on a LAN not a WAN.
> 
> I let the 4D engineers know about this at the last 4D summit. I have been 
> unsuccessful in creating a small isolated database that demonstrates the 
> problem. In my case it only happens in heavy load conditions and can take a 
> few days to manifest itself.
> 
> By heavy load, we have over 100 users hitting the database (all on the same 
> network as the server) and there is a lot of network traffic. When I say quit 
> responding… there comes a time, sometimes after a few days, where no one can 
> log in, and those logged in appear to be frozen. Restarting the 4D server 
> fixes this for a few to several more days. When I run legacy network these 
> problems do not exist.

I was planning on upgrading a client from v14.4 to v16.0, but now I am having 
second thoughts. Their 4D Client connections are currently rock solid. And 
their 4D Server runs for months at a time without the need for a restart. This 
client has 70-80 users connected. 

I certainly don’t want to submit my clients to a v16 upgrade that results in 
regular, weekly support calls of “I can’t connect to 4D Server” and “4D Server 
is frozen and needs to be restarted”. 

Can I run 4D Server v16.0 64-bit Windows with legacy network layer and 4D 
Client v16.0 32-bit Windows without these network issues? Anybody doing that?

Tim


Tim Nevels
Innovative Solutions
785-749-3444
timnev...@mac.com


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RE: Anyone using v16 in WAN

[Timothy Penner via 4D_Tech]

Hi Tim,

> > I think it is important to investigate whether the instability is specific 
> > to application code or not.
> >
> > for instance, it is possible to create a bare bone copy of you database 
> > with the export structure command. you can then open a copy of your 
> > production data with that structure file.
> >
> > if you have no issues using the database in user mode over the same 
> > network, then perhaps some methods are choking the network in a way that 
> > does not happen over the legacy layer.

> So is this a new feature of v16 and the new network layer? Are you saying 
> that is is OK and acceptable for 4D v16 — using the new network layer — to 
> drop a client connection simply because a method is running and choking the 
> network? A developer can write some code that will kill the network 
> connection?
> Or are you saying that this is really an indication of a bug in v16 and the 
> new network layer. That 4D should never disconnect 4D Client due to code 
> running that “chokes” the network.


I think he was describing a way to "troubleshoot" or "investigate" the 
situation... Once it is narrowed down to a specific command or routine then a 
bug could be filed.

-Tim




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Re: Anyone using v16 in WAN

[Tim Nevels via 4D_Tech]

On Apr 4, 2017, at 11:02 AM,Keisuke Miyako wrote:

> I think it is important to investigate whether the instability is specific to 
> application code or not.
> 
> for instance, it is possible to create a bare bone copy of you database with 
> the export structure command. you can then open a copy of your production 
> data with that structure file.
> 
> if you have no issues using the database in user mode over the same network, 
> then perhaps some methods are choking the network in a way that does not 
> happen over the legacy layer.

So is this a new feature of v16 and the new network layer? Are you saying that 
is is OK and acceptable for 4D v16 — using the new network layer — to drop a 
client connection simply because a method is running and choking the network? A 
developer can write some code that will kill the network connection?

Or are you saying that this is really an indication of a bug in v16 and the new 
network layer. That 4D should never disconnect 4D Client due to code running 
that “chokes” the network.

Tim


Tim Nevels
Innovative Solutions
785-749-3444
timnev...@mac.com


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Re: Anyone using v16 in WAN

[John DeSoi via 4D_Tech]

Are folks having trouble with the new network layer using it in 32 bit mode or 
64 bit mode? Just wondering if 64 bit mode is also problematic.

John DeSoi, Ph.D.


> On Apr 4, 2017, at 10:56 AM, lists via 4D_Tech <4d_tech@lists.4d.com> wrote:
> 
> Of the sites we are running at, all but the smallest ones exhibit the same 
> slowness, non-responsiveness after several days (number of days depended on 
> usage load), logged off clients not clearing from the server and occupying 
> licenses.  We can actually see the system response time increase as more 
> clients are logging in.
> 
> All of the above disappears and work correctly with the legacy network layer. 
> 
> I strongly second the assertion that the new network layer is more of a 
> "proof of concept" work in progress alpha stage.

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RE: Anyone using v16 in WAN

[lists via 4D_Tech]

Of the sites we are running at, all but the smallest ones exhibit the same 
slowness, non-responsiveness after several days (number of days depended on 
usage load), logged off clients not clearing from the server and occupying 
licenses.  We can actually see the system response time increase as more 
clients are logging in.

 All of the above disappears and work correctly with the legacy network layer. 

I strongly second the assertion that the new network layer is more of a "proof 
of concept" work in progress alpha stage.

Lahav

-Original Message-
From: 4D_Tech [mailto:4d_tech-boun...@lists.4d.com] On Behalf Of Herr Alexander 
Heintz via 4D_Tech
Sent: April 4, 2017 7:50 AM
To: 4D iNug Technical <4d_tech@lists.4d.com>
Cc: Herr Alexander Heintz <listrea...@heintz.net>
Subject: Re: Anyone using v16 in WAN

Am 04.04.2017 um 14:54 schrieb npdennis via 4D_Tech <4d_tech@lists.4d.com>:
> 
>> if you have no issues using the database in user mode over the same network, 
>> then perhaps some methods are choking the network in a way that does not 
>> happen over the legacy layer.
> 
> I found the new net work layer unusable as well. During heavy loads 4D will 
> quit responding. I use legacy network and things work great. This was all 
> done on a LAN not a WAN.

Same here, found the new network layer to be extremely unreliable, switched it 
off everywhere.
Will not try again until 4D tells me they fixed it big time!
The specs and the theory is sure interesting and it would be great, believe me, 
very great, but currently it is at most in a  „proof of concept“ Alpha stage...

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RE: Anyone using v16 in WAN

[lists via 4D_Tech]

Of the sites we are running at, all but the smallest ones exhibit the same 
slowness, non-responsiveness after several days (number of days depended on 
usage load), logged off clients not clearing from the server and occupying 
licenses.  We can actually see the system response time increase as more 
clients are logging in.

 All of the above disappears and work correctly with the legacy network layer. 

I strongly second the assertion that the new network layer is more of a "proof 
of concept" work in progress alpha stage.

Lahav

-Original Message-
From: 4D_Tech [mailto:4d_tech-boun...@lists.4d.com] On Behalf Of Herr Alexander 
Heintz via 4D_Tech
Sent: April 4, 2017 7:50 AM
To: 4D iNug Technical <4d_tech@lists.4d.com>
Cc: Herr Alexander Heintz <listrea...@heintz.net>
Subject: Re: Anyone using v16 in WAN

Am 04.04.2017 um 14:54 schrieb npdennis via 4D_Tech <4d_tech@lists.4d.com>:
> 
>> if you have no issues using the database in user mode over the same network, 
>> then perhaps some methods are choking the network in a way that does not 
>> happen over the legacy layer.
> 
> I found the new net work layer unusable as well. During heavy loads 4D will 
> quit responding. I use legacy network and things work great. This was all 
> done on a LAN not a WAN.

Same here, found the new network layer to be extremely unreliable, switched it 
off everywhere.
Will not try again until 4D tells me they fixed it big time!
The specs and the theory is sure interesting and it would be great, believe me, 
very great, but currently it is at most in a  „proof of concept“ Alpha stage...

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Re: Anyone using v16 in WAN

[Herr Alexander Heintz via 4D_Tech]

Am 04.04.2017 um 14:54 schrieb npdennis via 4D_Tech <4d_tech@lists.4d.com>:
> 
>> if you have no issues using the database in user mode over the same network, 
>> then perhaps some methods are choking the network in a way that does not 
>> happen over the legacy layer.
> 
> I found the new net work layer unusable as well. During heavy loads 4D will 
> quit responding. I use legacy network and things work great. This was all 
> done on a LAN not a WAN.

Same here, found the new network layer to be extremely unreliable, switched it 
off everywhere.
Will not try again until 4D tells me they fixed it big time!
The specs and the theory is sure interesting and it would be great, believe me, 
very great, but currently it is at most in a  „proof of concept“ Alpha stage...

**
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Re: Anyone using v16 in WAN

[npdennis via 4D_Tech]

> if you have no issues using the database in user mode over the same network, 
> then perhaps some methods are choking the network in a way that does not 
> happen over the legacy layer.

I found the new net work layer unusable as well. During heavy loads 4D will 
quit responding. I use legacy network and things work great. This was all done 
on a LAN not a WAN.

I let the 4D engineers know about this at the last 4D summit. I have been 
unsuccessful in creating a small isolated database that demonstrates the 
problem. In my case it only happens in heavy load conditions and can take a few 
days to manifest itself.

By heavy load, we have over 100 users hitting the database (all on the same 
network as the server) and there is a lot of network traffic. When I say quit 
responding… there comes a time, sometimes after a few days, where no one can 
log in, and those logged in appear to be frozen. Restarting the 4D server fixes 
this for a few to several more days. When I run legacy network these problems 
do not exist.

Neil

--
Neil Dennis
4D Developer since 1990


GreaText - Designing Software for the Way You Work
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North Ogden, UT 84414

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Re: Anyone using v16 in WAN

[Kirk Brooks via 4D_Tech]

Doug,
I've been running a db over WAN since v2004. I've found v15 to be more
stable than any of the others but I'm also running it on the legacy
setting. I've changed to the new one a couple of times and it always gets
complaints from users about responsiveness or sluggishness. I don't have
any v16 databases running with appreciable load yet but the one I do have
in production is totally acceptable with the new network layer.

Miyako is right, as I'm sure you know, about the attention you have to pay
to exactly where operations take place like searches, loops and such all
running on the server and not clients. But I'm guessing that's not the sort
of problems you're seeing.

The latency issue is still a bugger. Since it's highly dependent on the
routing it's not something you can control completely and it can bite you.
We had an issue a few years ago when a couple of our locations were on
Comcast and Comcast and L3 were having a fight resulting in Comcast
avoiding L3 connections. This resulted in the route from those offices,
about 8 miles from our colo, requiring hopping all the way from here to
Europe, turning around in Sweden ( I think) and then coming back to
California if you were connecting from a Comcast node. This took a
noticeable amount of time and 4D was not amused. Lead me to install a
couple of lines from a local carrier just for the data while they had their
pissing match. Actually we just ditched Comcast 'cause they are a miserable
company to deal with.

On Tue, Apr 4, 2017 at 12:20 AM, Douglas Cryer via 4D_Tech <
4d_tech@lists.4d.com> wrote:

> I would like to hear from anyone using v16 in a WAN environment.
>
> Frankly every time I have tried out v16 or for that matter any v15 R
> release I have been shocked at how poor the network connection stability
> has been.
>
> It seems to stem from the new networking layer and certainly it seems to
> be more stable when the legacy  networking checkbox is checked but frankly
> it scared me off being an early adopter.
>
> I now have a little time to look at this again but wanted to gather some
> information from the community before I proceed with more testing.
>
> Are there any recommended settings and configurations I should look at?
> Some background:
>
> All our servers are running on Windows Servers mixture of 2008 and 2012.
> - 90% are dedicated hosted servers with a few in-house servers
> - Multiple databases run on our hosted servers on separate ports
> - WAN connection for each server is dedicated 100Mb
> - Client connections vary from domestic grade ADSL, Virgin Cable and
> Leased lines
> - Clients are a mixture of platforms 90% Windows 7, 8 & 10 and 10% OSX
>
> We have occasionally had issues with certain clients broadband connections
> but all in all v15 stability has been good.
>
> Issues I was seeing with v16 were:
> - Client connection timeout errors
> - Clients which had logged off, showing as connected to the server
>
> Am I missing some key documentation in this area or maybe some new
> networking layer tech note?
>
> Regards,  Dougie
> 
>
> telekinetix Limited- J. Douglas Cryer
> Phone : 01234 761759  Mobile : 07973 675 218
> 2nd Floor Broadway House, 4-6 The Broadway, Bedford MK40 2TE
> Email : jdcr...@telekinetix.com <mailto:jdcr...@telekinetix.com>  Web :
> http://www.telekinetix.com <http://www.telekinetix.com/>
> 
>
>
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-- 
Kirk Brooks
San Francisco, CA
===

*The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do
nothing.*

*- Edmund Burke*
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Re: Anyone using v16 in WAN

[Keisuke Miyako via 4D_Tech]

Hello,

I think it is important to investigate whether the instability is specific to 
application code or not.

for instance, it is possible to create a bare bone copy of you database with 
the export structure command. you can then open a copy of your production data 
with that structure file.

if you have no issues using the database in user mode over the same network, 
then perhaps some methods are choking the network in a way that does not happen 
over the legacy layer.



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Anyone using v16 in WAN

[Douglas Cryer via 4D_Tech]

I would like to hear from anyone using v16 in a WAN environment.

Frankly every time I have tried out v16 or for that matter any v15 R release I 
have been shocked at how poor the network connection stability has been.

It seems to stem from the new networking layer and certainly it seems to be 
more stable when the legacy  networking checkbox is checked but frankly it 
scared me off being an early adopter.

I now have a little time to look at this again but wanted to gather some 
information from the community before I proceed with more testing.

Are there any recommended settings and configurations I should look at?  Some 
background:

All our servers are running on Windows Servers mixture of 2008 and 2012.
- 90% are dedicated hosted servers with a few in-house servers
- Multiple databases run on our hosted servers on separate ports
- WAN connection for each server is dedicated 100Mb
- Client connections vary from domestic grade ADSL, Virgin Cable and Leased 
lines
- Clients are a mixture of platforms 90% Windows 7, 8 & 10 and 10% OSX

We have occasionally had issues with certain clients broadband connections but 
all in all v15 stability has been good.

Issues I was seeing with v16 were:
- Client connection timeout errors
- Clients which had logged off, showing as connected to the server

Am I missing some key documentation in this area or maybe some new networking 
layer tech note?

Regards,  Dougie


telekinetix Limited- J. Douglas Cryer
Phone : 01234 761759  Mobile : 07973 675 218
2nd Floor Broadway House, 4-6 The Broadway, Bedford MK40 2TE
Email : jdcr...@telekinetix.com <mailto:jdcr...@telekinetix.com>  Web : 
http://www.telekinetix.com <http://www.telekinetix.com/>

 

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