Re: [9fans] 9base-3
On Fri, Aug 7, 2009 at 6:13 PM, Urielurie...@gmail.com wrote:
Always get p9p from hg, the tarballs have been partially broken for
ages and
Excuse me?
Instead of keeping that to yourself why not tell me so I can fix it?
I know many people who install from the tar file, though,
so I expect you're just whining instead of checking the facts,
as usual.
always have problems being untared in some environments
Again, details?
FreeBSD:
holo=; hget http://swtch.com/plan9port/plan9port.tgz | gunzip | tar xf -
holo=; ls -lR plan9 | awk '/^-/ {s+=$5} END{print s}'
49413465
holo=;
Linux:
c2=; gunzip plan9port.tgz | tar xf -
tar: Ignoring unknown extended header keyword `SCHILY.dev'
tar: Ignoring unknown extended header keyword `SCHILY.ino'
tar: Ignoring unknown extended header keyword `SCHILY.nlink'
c2=; ls -lR plan9 | awk '/^-/ {s+=$5} END{print s}'
49413465
c2=;
OS X:
mini=; gunzip plan9port.tgz | tar xf -
mini=; ls -lR plan9 | awk '/^-/ {s+=$5} END{print s}'
49342685
mini=;
The GNU tar warnings about SCHILY extensions don't count as
a problem: it's an inconsequential warning message.
The missing 70780 bytes on OS X are the files HI, HX, LH, RC, lH, and rH
from troff/font/devutf/charlib, which have been overwritten with differently
cased versions of the same files. It doesn't matter since basically
no one uses those special characters, and you'd have the same problem
using Hg or any other file program: the bug is in the file system, not
the extractor.
I'm plenty happy for people to use hg instead of the tar files--
I think that's good advice for the people who enjoy using
version control systems--but please don't go spreading
misinformation.
Thanks.
Russ
Re: [9fans] 9base-3
I haven't used the tarball in years because I simply find hg more
convenient, but a few times when I have recommended somebody to
install p9p they have complained about problems unpacking the tarball,
I just tell them to do a fresh hg checkout instead, and that usually
works for them. Maybe they are simply confused by whatever errors gnu
tar spews for who knows what reason, but people that have no problems
with other tarballs do have problems with the p9p tarballs, and it has
been going on for a while.
uriel
On Sat, Aug 8, 2009 at 8:58 AM, Russ Coxr...@swtch.com wrote:
On Fri, Aug 7, 2009 at 6:13 PM, Urielurie...@gmail.com wrote:
Always get p9p from hg, the tarballs have been partially broken for
ages and
Excuse me?
Instead of keeping that to yourself why not tell me so I can fix it?
I know many people who install from the tar file, though,
so I expect you're just whining instead of checking the facts,
as usual.
always have problems being untared in some environments
Again, details?
FreeBSD:
holo=; hget http://swtch.com/plan9port/plan9port.tgz | gunzip | tar xf -
holo=; ls -lR plan9 | awk '/^-/ {s+=$5} END{print s}'
49413465
holo=;
Linux:
c2=; gunzip plan9port.tgz | tar xf -
tar: Ignoring unknown extended header keyword `SCHILY.dev'
tar: Ignoring unknown extended header keyword `SCHILY.ino'
tar: Ignoring unknown extended header keyword `SCHILY.nlink'
c2=; ls -lR plan9 | awk '/^-/ {s+=$5} END{print s}'
49413465
c2=;
OS X:
mini=; gunzip plan9port.tgz | tar xf -
mini=; ls -lR plan9 | awk '/^-/ {s+=$5} END{print s}'
49342685
mini=;
The GNU tar warnings about SCHILY extensions don't count as
a problem: it's an inconsequential warning message.
The missing 70780 bytes on OS X are the files HI, HX, LH, RC, lH, and rH
from troff/font/devutf/charlib, which have been overwritten with differently
cased versions of the same files. It doesn't matter since basically
no one uses those special characters, and you'd have the same problem
using Hg or any other file program: the bug is in the file system, not
the extractor.
I'm plenty happy for people to use hg instead of the tar files--
I think that's good advice for the people who enjoy using
version control systems--but please don't go spreading
misinformation.
Thanks.
Russ
Re: [9fans] 9base-3
Perhaps a way to solve this problems and save you work and trouble
would be to simply link to: http://code.swtch.com/plan9port/get/tip.gz
and let mercurial do the job of building a tarball for the latest
repo.
uriel
On Sat, Aug 8, 2009 at 9:35 AM, Urielurie...@gmail.com wrote:
I haven't used the tarball in years because I simply find hg more
convenient, but a few times when I have recommended somebody to
install p9p they have complained about problems unpacking the tarball,
I just tell them to do a fresh hg checkout instead, and that usually
works for them. Maybe they are simply confused by whatever errors gnu
tar spews for who knows what reason, but people that have no problems
with other tarballs do have problems with the p9p tarballs, and it has
been going on for a while.
uriel
On Sat, Aug 8, 2009 at 8:58 AM, Russ Coxr...@swtch.com wrote:
On Fri, Aug 7, 2009 at 6:13 PM, Urielurie...@gmail.com wrote:
Always get p9p from hg, the tarballs have been partially broken for
ages and
Excuse me?
Instead of keeping that to yourself why not tell me so I can fix it?
I know many people who install from the tar file, though,
so I expect you're just whining instead of checking the facts,
as usual.
always have problems being untared in some environments
Again, details?
FreeBSD:
holo=; hget http://swtch.com/plan9port/plan9port.tgz | gunzip | tar xf -
holo=; ls -lR plan9 | awk '/^-/ {s+=$5} END{print s}'
49413465
holo=;
Linux:
c2=; gunzip plan9port.tgz | tar xf -
tar: Ignoring unknown extended header keyword `SCHILY.dev'
tar: Ignoring unknown extended header keyword `SCHILY.ino'
tar: Ignoring unknown extended header keyword `SCHILY.nlink'
c2=; ls -lR plan9 | awk '/^-/ {s+=$5} END{print s}'
49413465
c2=;
OS X:
mini=; gunzip plan9port.tgz | tar xf -
mini=; ls -lR plan9 | awk '/^-/ {s+=$5} END{print s}'
49342685
mini=;
The GNU tar warnings about SCHILY extensions don't count as
a problem: it's an inconsequential warning message.
The missing 70780 bytes on OS X are the files HI, HX, LH, RC, lH, and rH
from troff/font/devutf/charlib, which have been overwritten with differently
cased versions of the same files. It doesn't matter since basically
no one uses those special characters, and you'd have the same problem
using Hg or any other file program: the bug is in the file system, not
the extractor.
I'm plenty happy for people to use hg instead of the tar files--
I think that's good advice for the people who enjoy using
version control systems--but please don't go spreading
misinformation.
Thanks.
Russ
Re: [9fans] a few Q's regarding cpu/auth server
On Aug 7, 2009, at 10:08 PM, lu...@proxima.alt.za wrote: Story time. :) You're also falling into the trap of believing that because it _can_ happen, it has to happen (Murphy's Law). It punishes the many for the sins of the few and is a very poor foundation for progress. It wasn't a position, just a story. Though I do think a Murphy's law approach to security is better than a credulous one. But I don't think the Plan 9 approach is credulous. It just places priority on the network rather than the machine and assumes valuable machines will be treated that way. Plan 9 has a good balance of cost of security against eventual real protection and forces you to re-evaluate the accepted paradigms. That is sufficient reason to explore Plan 9, if not to adopt it wholesale. I agree completely. When I have a budget for hardware I plan on adopting it wholesale actually. I wouldn't be here if I weren't interested in different paradigms and evaluating them. -- Daniel Lyons
Re: [9fans] 9base-3
Thanks, but I'm happy with the current tar files. They are a working CVS checkout, so that people who use them can then use the recipes in cvs(1) [9 man cvs] to update their trees. The one you linked to is not a working anything checkout. I haven't touched the tar file generation in over a year so work and trouble is quite the exaggeration. I have changed the script that generates the tar files to use the Plan 9 tar. Now there will be no SCHILY.* extensions for GNU tar to whine about. Maybe that will kill off this myth. Russ
Re: [9fans] USB HDD connection problem
- usb/usbd is up and running - the only option in my BIOS is to turn USB off - I am sorry, i dont understand the part about the old and new USB devices and tools. can you explain a bit? Thanks: Béla 2009/8/7 erik quanstrom quans...@coraid.com: On Fri Aug 7 02:53:14 EDT 2009, bval...@gmail.com wrote: There is more: I don't have a usbdisk manpage. '%man usbdisk' complains that its not there, but if i do a '%lookman usbdisk', the manpage is listed as a hit, so it must be in the search index. [...] - usb/disk gives this: usb/disk: /dev/usb: no devs - usbfat: writes: mount: can't open /srv/usb: '/srv/usb' file does not exist cannot mount /srv/usb The USB mouse works. hmm. if the usb mouse works, yet plan 9 is not running usb/usbd (have you checked), it may be that your bios has put your usb in legacy mode and either won't or hasn't been asked to let go. if you are running usbd and usb/kb, then this could happen if you are mixing #U and tools for #U (the old usb device) and #u and tools for #u. your man page problem sounds like you've damaged your local fs. consider a pull to update. - erik
Re: [9fans] just an idea (Splashtop like)
On Sat Aug 8 00:47:40 EDT 2009, davide...@cs.cmu.edu wrote: would you expect to have a bad spot in 2,000 fujitsu eagles? If you do, I have a repair manual. i prefer two strong oxen. - erik
Re: [9fans] 9base-3
On Sat, 8 Aug 2009 01:39:00 -0700 Russ Cox r...@swtch.com wrote: Thanks, but I'm happy with the current tar files. They are a working CVS checkout, so that people who use them can then use the recipes in cvs(1) [9 man cvs] to update their trees. The one you linked to is not a working anything checkout. I haven't touched the tar file generation in over a year so work and trouble is quite the exaggeration. I have changed the script that generates the tar files to use the Plan 9 tar. Now there will be no SCHILY.* extensions for GNU tar to whine about. Maybe that will kill off this myth. Russ I usually blame distro patching, perhaps unfairly but I have had quite a bit of bother from distro patches. I haven't had any trouble unpacking p9p on source mage or debian, and looking through source mage 'spell' history I found gnu tar did need a patch for security reasons a couple of years ago. Perhaps some distro used a more agressive patch never removed it. -- Ethan Grammatikidis Those who are slower at parsing information must necessarily be faster at problem-solving.
Re: [9fans] linux reinvents factotum, secstore ...
On Fri, Aug 7, 2009 at 10:34 AM, Daniel Lyons fus...@storytotell.orgwrote: On Aug 7, 2009, at 7:06 AM, Ethan Grammatikidis wrote: X11 isn't a desktop, it tries very hard not to define a look and feel, but it has to include inter-app communications to support the supposedly desirable drag drop as well as any copy/paste beyond plain text. In fact my big beef with dbus is that everything is all hot-all-over about dbus when it needs to be using X IPC. My beef is that they were hot-all-over CORBA not too long ago. I expect in another three years nobody will be using D-Bus, they'll be using some new layer that sits on top of it... ad nauseam. Outside Plan 9 I don't see anyone solving two problems with one technology; instead, they're just solving one problem and introducing a new one. Yeah they were hot on CORBA, and KDE folks were doing DCOP, which was derived from some X11 ICE thing... Neither of them was that great, and somehow they've both come back to DBUS. I don't honestly know the rhyme or reason for any of it. Anyone who thought CORBA was the answer didn't seem to understand the question. — Daniel Lyons
Re: [9fans] the old floppy set
the CD includes sources to the kernel on platforms which required NDAs to get the information to do the port. part of the NDA, as i understand it, required the sorts of restrictions on redistribution in the commercial license. people have tried to get at least some bits of that opened up, and at least one vendor has given a definitive no. so i don't think the CD, per se, will ever be available without a license. CDs with licenses do, every so often, come up for sale. after my original copy got lost in a move, i bought one off someone here about two years ago. but i think at this point, it's a good bet that no new licenses for the CD will be generated. i believe it would, theoretically, be possible for the Labs to offer the CD contents, minus the restricted platforms, under the current licensing terms, but i wouldn't hold out too much hope that anyone with the authority to do so will find 2e worth the time. on the chance i'm wrong: if anyone with such authority can give the OK, i'm more than happy to do the legwork: prune the tree of restricted stuff (which i understand to be the SGI, MIPS, and NeXT kernel and boot loader bits, /sys/src/9/(chm indigo3k indigo4k next power) and /sys/src/boot/(indigo magnum)) and stick either the tree or a .tgz up somewhere. failing that, i think you're left to ebay. sorry.
Re: [9fans] the old floppy set
On Sat, Aug 8, 2009 at 6:49 AM, John Florenslawmas...@gmail.com wrote: On Fri, Aug 7, 2009 at 2:15 AM, Steve Simonst...@quintile.net wrote: As Anthony says it is very very old, but I might be fun if you had the time on your hands. The 2nd edition books/cdrom are nolonger available but you might find a set seccond hand (abebooks.com etc). The floppys are here: /n/sources/contrib/steve/historic/2nd-edition/pcdist/ I found a complete mirror of the old 2nd edition site and I think uriel has copied it to cat-v.org. You will need 16Mb to install and 8Mb to run a terminal though It will work at 640x480x1 resolution. The 4th edition should run on a 486, though you will need (say) 128Mb of ram - much more if you want to recompile gs(1). -Steve With a little help from FreeDOS, I am now successfully running 2e on a 66MHz 486 with 32 MB of RAM and little bitty hard drive ( 300 MB). It's fun; on the surface, it's not a lot different, although 800x600x1 makes things interesting (I like it, actually... rio hacking time?). I'd kill for the full CD, which I guess would have to go on my other 486, since I seem to recall that the full system needs 500 MB. However, given licensing, I suppose it's out of reach for the time being--anybody with experience in this sort of thing, is there a point in time when it could be distributed freely, or will it be stuck in the You can't have 2e without a license, and you can't have a license state forever? If you follow the insane rules of copyright, you will have to wait at least 90 years or so before it falls into the public domain. And by then they probably will have expanded copyright terms by another extra hundred years, so 'forever' seems about right. uriel
Re: [9fans] the old floppy set
On Sat, Aug 8, 2009 at 11:45, ron minnichrminn...@gmail.com wrote: I wonder how many of the companies involved still exist :-) i suspect ron knows all this already; this is intended for anyone else who comes along and thinks this might make getting 2e CDs out easier (instead of harder). again, this is all from my memory, mostly from discussions on 9fans. various people with more first-hand knowledge of the situation have spoken on the subject in the past; check the archives if you want a more definitive answer. the relevant companies were Sun, NeXT, SGI, and MIPS. One way or another, the Sun sources are available; i think, but am not certain, that Sun was asked and said okay (but maybe the original NDA just never had that sort of restriction). see extra/sun.tgz for the results. NeXT was acquired by Apple, who in legal terms became a successor entity (while I haven't seen the NDAs in question, that or similar is pretty standard language). While I was still at the Labs, word was that someone in 1127 (named at the time, but I don't remember now) with a good relationship with higher-up types there asked and was summarily denied. SGI bought MIPS, then spun them out again, but kept parts. No clear successor organization, which makes it likely that it'd be far more work on the part of SGI and/or MIPS to figure out who can even say yes. even if there is a clear answer, neither company seems like they've got a lot of spare personnel to devote the the question. SGI's own NDA is almost certainly with SGI (sorry: sgi). that's probably the easiest of the three to deal with, if someone were really, really inclined. but really: don't be. these are kernels for very, very outdated platforms, some of which even eBay has trouble turning up. cobbling together a 2e-supported pc would no doubt be faster and cheaper - and you could likely get beefier results out of the deal. none of the described platforms even have modern equivalents in their line. sun was probably the closest here, and we've got that already. anyway, to ron's question, for those keeping score: Sun: released their stuff; recently acquired by Oracle. NeXT: acquired by Apple, ate it from within. MIPS: acquired by SGI. a smaller MIPS was then spit out when SGI realized Itanium was their future (oops). SGI: went backrupt, twice, then acquired by Rackable before the whole shebang was renamed sgi. i was going to say that having Plan 9 ported to your platform seemed like a bad omen for your company, but equally valid is the observation that being a platform vender (other than Apple) is bad for your company.
Re: [9fans] linux reinvents factotum, secstore ...
On Sat, Aug 8, 2009 at 4:44 PM, David Leimbachleim...@gmail.com wrote: Yeah they were hot on CORBA, and KDE folks were doing DCOP, which was derived from some X11 ICE thing... Neither of them was that great, and somehow they've both come back to DBUS. I don't honestly know the rhyme or reason for any of it. Anyone who thought CORBA was the answer didn't seem to understand the question. The problem with CORBA is that it doesn't use XML, fortunately DBUS fixes that. uriel
Re: [9fans] the old floppy set
i was going to say that having Plan 9 ported to your platform seemed like a bad omen for your company, but equally valid is the observation that being a platform vender (other than Apple) is bad for your company. ibm seems to be doing ok. but sequent, the original home of ken's fs kernels, is not, having been swallowed by the aforementioned ibm. another platform vendor to fail recently which has been mentioned here is sicortex, the guys who made the low-power supercomputers. - erik
[9fans] Fwd: [coreboot] ELC 2009 videos and slides
some interesting talks in here, esp. the boot time reduction one. ron -- Forwarded message -- From: Peter Stuge pe...@stuge.se Date: Sat, Aug 8, 2009 at 7:28 AM Subject: [coreboot] ELC 2009 videos and slides To: coreb...@coreboot.org http://free-electrons.com/blog/elc-2009-videos/ Some I found particularly interesting: Quantitative analysis of system initialization in embedded Linux systems, by Andre Puschmann http://tree.celinuxforum.org/CelfPubWiki/ELC2009Presentations?action=AttachFiledo=gettarget=ELC09_boottime_reduction.pdf Building Embedded Linux Systems with Buildroot, by Thomas Petazzoni http://www.celinuxforum.org/CelfPubWiki/ELC2009Presentations?action=AttachFiledo=gettarget=buildroot.pdf Ksplice: Rebootless kernel updates, by Jeff Arnold (if new to you) http://www.celinuxforum.org/CelfPubWiki/ELC2009Presentations?action=AttachFiledo=viewtarget=elc2009-ksplice.pdf //Peter -- coreboot mailing list: coreb...@coreboot.org http://www.coreboot.org/mailman/listinfo/coreboot
Re: [9fans] the old floppy set
anyway, to ron's question, for those keeping score: Sun: released their stuff; recently acquired by Oracle. NeXT: acquired by Apple, ate it from within. MIPS: acquired by SGI. a smaller MIPS was then spit out when SGI realized Itanium was their future (oops). SGI: went backrupt, twice, then acquired by Rackable before the whole shebang was renamed sgi. i was going to say that having Plan 9 ported to your platform seemed like a bad omen for your company, but equally valid is the observation that being a platform vender (other than Apple) is bad for your company. Last I had read, Rob Pike had tried several times to get SGI to allow the release of their stuff, but they always said no. I don't think any attempt has been made since Rackable acquired SGI. It still might be interesting to see someday, since I thought I had heard that Bell Labs still has an SGI Power Challenge running a 4th Edition kernel whose release is also barred by the 2e NDA... Maybe it's been turned off for good by now, though... -Ben winmail.dat
Re: [9fans] the old floppy set
probably the easiest of the three to deal with, if someone were really, really inclined. but really: don't be. these are kernels for very, very outdated platforms, some of which even eBay has trouble turning up. cobbling That's besides the point. This stuff should be saved for posterity, and hopefully at some point, shared for its educational and historic value. The legal issues will probably lead to the software being lost sooner or later, if not resolved... If someone is really, really inclined, please DO... There are lots of us who would be very grateful. Tim Newsham http://www.thenewsh.com/~newsham/
