Re: [9fans] suggestion : new service targets for plan9

[vic . thacker]

On Fri, Jan 28, 2022, at 11:03, ibrahim via 9fans wrote:
> I developed a kiosk version of plan9 (based on 9front and legacy9) and 
> am about to develop a single user desktop system. Those can coexist 
> with the existing plan9 system.
>
> I named the new service targets kiosk and desktop. Both work without rio.
[snip]

Hmm. Have you considered using Inferno?

- Vic 

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Re: [9fans] acme and sam - mouse suggestions?

[sirjofri]

Hello all,

I just quickly want to share my experience, although I haven't used any 
real three buttons mouse in the last ten years.


For my laptop system I really love the (older) IBM/lenovo trackpoint. It 
has three physical buttons below the keyboard and I can reach them easily 
with my thumbs. I'm sure many of you know this experience.


It's a different story on newer lenovo laptops (the ones with the modern 
keyboard) where the point feels sluggish and tends to drift, which is 
extremely annoying. Also it's deeper and it doesn't feel like you control 
the joystick.


For my desktop environment I prefer the cheapest usable wired vertical 
mouse with scrollwheel (20 Euros)[1]. It's almost one of the first search 
results on amazon and it looks like many brands just use the exact same 
model from the same (chinese?) manufacturer, although there are slight 
differences in quality and feel.


I can click on the scrollwheel to create a MB2 event, which is fine for 
me. I have to say I have used blender for years and am using Unreal 
Engine as a job, so I'm used to using the scrollwheel.


The cheap vertical mice usually have two additional buttons at the thumb 
side in the upper part of the devices. They are mapped to 
forward/backward, but they're irrelevant for any 9 experience. I also 
have another wireless vertical mouse where these buttons are in the 
bottom part.


In my experience it's better to have them in the upper part since you 
grab the mouse for dragging them around while repositioning. However, 
it's just weird holding the mouse in the air while pressing one of the 
buttons in the lower part. It's like pushing a button downwards while 
keeping the device up, against gravity. However, that's just my personal 
opinion. I barely use the device as I'm mostly in an office-like 
situation and for mobile the trackpoint has more benefits.


sirjofri

[1] if you try to get one of these make sure to not get the very 
cheapest. When I was looking the first I bought was 15 euros and it broke 
after half a year or so, the next one I got for 20 euros was fine and 
it's still in use after years. The material is not the best and feels 
cheap but I guess that's what you get for this price.


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Re: [9fans] acme and sam - mouse suggestions?

[umbraticus]

> small ones seem to me like a pain to point, and the large ones look
> like hard to make chords with the big ball in the middle. Could you
> share your experience?

I use a Kensington Expert which I guess falls into the big
ball in the middle category.  Honestly, most of the time I
click/chord with my left hand on the thinkpad's trackpad
buttons while rolling the ball with my right hand, but
chording with the trackball buttons is also fine.  The
scrollwheel thing is pretty nice too.

umbraticus

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Re: [9fans] acme and sam - mouse suggestions?

[adr]

Trackballs also often have more than two real buttons.
umbraticus


The good 3 buttons mouses are vanishing, I've been thinking on
giving a try to a trackball for a while. The problem is that the
small ones seem to me like a pain to point, and the large ones look
like hard to make chords with the big ball in the middle. Could you
share your experience?

adr.

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Re: [9fans] acme and sam - mouse suggestions?

[Rob Pike]

Sorry, yes, it's MO09BOA on mine too. Small print, old eyes.

The bottom of my IBM-branded one has the same model number.

-rob


On Fri, Jan 28, 2022 at 4:16 PM Bakul Shah  wrote:

> Mine says MO09BOA. It has a Lenovo logo
> and the scroll thingy is lighted blue.  It is not
> a wheel, more like a single axis trackpoint.
>
> On Jan 27, 2022, at 8:47 PM, Rob Pike  wrote:
>
> I have one mouse still in the original unopened box, just to be safe. The
> label reads
>
> 31P7405 Lenovo Scrollpoint Mouse Model MO098OA
>
> And I have now opened it to be sure, and it is the true blue (literally)
> 3-button version. It is labeled Lenovo, although the ones I use are all
> labeled IBM.
>
> -rob
>
>
> On Fri, Jan 28, 2022 at 3:44 PM Kurt H Maier via 9fans <9fans@9fans.net>
> wrote:
>
>> On Thu, Jan 27, 2022 at 08:39:09PM -0800, Kurt H Maier via 9fans wrote:
>> > The Scrollpoint Rob mentioned was made
>> > with both IBM and Lenovo branding, and was also available in a sculpted
>> > Pro model with a thumb-actuated fourth button.
>> 
>> I should specify:  the Scrollpoint mouse technically only has two
>> buttons and a round pointing device in between.  The Scrollpoint II is
>> the one Rob describes (with either a blue or red oval pointing stick
>> behind a middle mouse button), and it was available in both optical and
>> mechanical configurations.  The Scrollpoint Pro ergonomic mouse was also
>> available in both optical and mechanical setups; the mechanical version
>> is absolutely miserable, but the optical version was great.
>> 
>> khm
>> 
>
> *9fans * / 9fans / see discussions
>  + participants
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> 
>

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Re: [9fans] suggestion : new service targets for plan9

[ori]

Quoth ibrahim via 9fans <9fans@9fans.net>:
> 1) Define new service targets kiosk and desktop
> (Currently I do this in init or /user/.../lib/profile.
> This makes it possible for a user to start an
> alternative window manager or even a single applicaton
> (kiosk service) with a modern look and feel.

It'd probably make sense to generalize: 'service=foo'
in plan9.ini could run /bin/^$foo^rc.

> 2) Define a layer between vga and devdraw perhaps
> vgafb which improves the performance for frame
> buffer rendered window managers. 

Why would another layer be help?

Libmemdraw is not very fast, and profiling+optimization
will be needed to solve that, but I'm not sure what an
additional layer is supposed to do there.

> 3) Define events for mouse, keyboard, touchpad,
> windows which is based on notes managed by light
> threads inside the client app. 

Sure.  It fits -- same place as kbdfs -- but someone
needs to come up with the event encoding, write the
'touchfs', and implement the readers that toss events
down channels.

Nothing insurmountable, just needs someone who cares
about it to roll up their sleeves and write code.


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Re: [9fans] building blocks speaking 9p

[Bakul Shah]

On Jan 27, 2022, at 7:31 PM, Lucio De Re  wrote:
> 
> On 1/28/22, Bakul Shah  wrote:
> 
>> This will probably have to ride on USB first. A verilog
>> implementation would be useful in an FPGA!
>> 
> I never understood why USB receives so much attention (but thanks to
> all those who valiantly tried to tame that wild beast!). What does it
> do that PoE doesn't do infinitely better?

Think of really simple, low power, low cost devices.
USB can also provide power. USB+ATtiny85 devel boards
cost ~$3 even at Amazon. And FPGA boards can be
pretty inexpensive too. If you can find them.

But note these are just preliminary ideas.

>> Would this be a useful component? If such a thing were
>> available, what would you want to build with it?
>> 
> What I would want from such a tool is its availability within
> educational institutions so we stop teaching greed technology to
> learners and lower the knowledge entry bar that Intel and Microsoft -
> and their allies - have created (that, I make no apologies for, is
> Politics, the Politics of Technological Domination).


Let us first build a few before worrying about such things.


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Re: [9fans] acme and sam - mouse suggestions?

[Bakul Shah]

Mine says MO09BOA. It has a Lenovo logo
and the scroll thingy is lighted blue.  It is not
a wheel, more like a single axis trackpoint.

> On Jan 27, 2022, at 8:47 PM, Rob Pike  > wrote:
> 
> I have one mouse still in the original unopened box, just to be safe. The 
> label reads
> 
> 31P7405 Lenovo Scrollpoint Mouse Model MO098OA
> 
> And I have now opened it to be sure, and it is the true blue (literally) 
> 3-button version. It is labeled Lenovo, although the ones I use are all 
> labeled IBM.
> 
> -rob
> 
> 
> On Fri, Jan 28, 2022 at 3:44 PM Kurt H Maier via 9fans <9fans@9fans.net 
> > wrote:
> On Thu, Jan 27, 2022 at 08:39:09PM -0800, Kurt H Maier via 9fans wrote:
> > The Scrollpoint Rob mentioned was made
> > with both IBM and Lenovo branding, and was also available in a sculpted
> > Pro model with a thumb-actuated fourth button.
> 
> I should specify:  the Scrollpoint mouse technically only has two
> buttons and a round pointing device in between.  The Scrollpoint II is
> the one Rob describes (with either a blue or red oval pointing stick
> behind a middle mouse button), and it was available in both optical and
> mechanical configurations.  The Scrollpoint Pro ergonomic mouse was also
> available in both optical and mechanical setups; the mechanical version
> is absolutely miserable, but the optical version was great.
> 
> khm
> 
> 
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Re: [9fans] acme and sam - mouse suggestions?

[Alex Musolino]

Quoth o...@eigenstate.org:
> Quoth Kurt H Maier via 9fans <9fans@9fans.net>:
> > 
> > The Evoluent VerticalMouse series has three mechanical buttons plus a
> > scroll wheel between buttons 1 and 2.
> 
> This one is my personal favorite.

I have two of these and they're quite good, though quite expensive
new.  I bought the second one "new, open box" for well under half the
then-current new price.

My only complaint would be that the wired version isn't massive
enough.  I plan to weight them down a bit with some plumbum.


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Re: [9fans] acme and sam - mouse suggestions?

[Ben Hancock]

On 1/27/22 20:47, Rob Pike wrote:
I have one mouse still in the original unopened box, just to be safe. 
The label reads


31P7405 Lenovo Scrollpoint Mouse Model MO098OA

And I have now opened it to be sure, and it is the true blue (literally) 
3-button version. It is labeled Lenovo, although the ones I use are all 
labeled IBM.


Thanks very much for the recommendation -- and the extra due diligence! :D

I appreciate all the suggestions. Looks like there's some good options 
floating around out there. I'll see what I can pick up.


Cheers,

- Ben

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Re: [9fans] acme and sam - mouse suggestions?

[Kurt H Maier via 9fans]

On Fri, Jan 28, 2022 at 03:47:48PM +1100, Rob Pike wrote:
> I have one mouse still in the original unopened box, just to be safe. The
> label reads
> 
> 31P7405 Lenovo Scrollpoint Mouse Model MO098OA
> 
> And I have now opened it to be sure, and it is the true blue (literally)
> 3-button version. It is labeled Lenovo, although the ones I use are all
> labeled IBM.
> 
> -rob

Lenovo wasn't as much of a stickler for nomenclature as IBM; I ran into
all kinds of label variants -- when I worked at IBM I used to snag these
when I could.  They were also labeled 'ThinkPlus Optical Mouse' for a
while, when bundled with a computer.  Useful information for keeping
them alive can be found here:  http://www.ibmfiles.com/pages/scrollpoint.htm

khm


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Re: [9fans] acme and sam - mouse suggestions?

[ori]

Quoth Kurt H Maier via 9fans <9fans@9fans.net>:
> 
> The Evoluent VerticalMouse series has three mechanical buttons plus a
> scroll wheel between buttons 1 and 2.

This one is my personal favorite.


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Re: [9fans] building blocks speaking 9p

[ori]

Quoth Bakul Shah :
> The idea:
> - make it very easy to create hardware gadgets by
>   providing a firmware/hardware building block that
>   talks 9p on the host interface side & interfaces
>   with device specific hardware.
> 
> - use a "universal" 9p driver on the host side that
>   allows access to any such 9p device even from a shell.
> 
> - provide a standard way to find out device capabilities.
> 
> - together they provide a plug-and-play setup.
> 
> Example: connect an LED and a current sensor to this
> 9p device, other necessary hardware, add a few config
> bits and plug this device kn]]into a host. Now you should
> be able to turn on/off the light or sense its state.
> 
> Similarly you should be able to control a stepper motor
> servo, cameras, microphones, other actuators, sensors,
> IO etc. Eventually you should be able to snap together
> enough of these components to build larger assemblies
> such as a 3D printer.
> 

I did something like this at a previous job, where we
had firmware exposed via 9p tunneled over a USB bulk
endpoint.

The firmware was implemented on an STM32, and mounted
from linux using lib9pclient with a p9p-ectomy.

It worked quite well. Unfortunately, it wasn't open
source, and the company is now dead.


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Re: [9fans] acme and sam - mouse suggestions?

[umbraticus]

Trackballs also often have more than two real buttons.

umbraticus

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Re: [9fans] acme and sam - mouse suggestions?

[Rob Pike]

I have one mouse still in the original unopened box, just to be safe. The
label reads

31P7405 Lenovo Scrollpoint Mouse Model MO098OA

And I have now opened it to be sure, and it is the true blue (literally)
3-button version. It is labeled Lenovo, although the ones I use are all
labeled IBM.

-rob


On Fri, Jan 28, 2022 at 3:44 PM Kurt H Maier via 9fans <9fans@9fans.net>
wrote:

> On Thu, Jan 27, 2022 at 08:39:09PM -0800, Kurt H Maier via 9fans wrote:
> > The Scrollpoint Rob mentioned was made
> > with both IBM and Lenovo branding, and was also available in a sculpted
> > Pro model with a thumb-actuated fourth button.
> 
> I should specify:  the Scrollpoint mouse technically only has two
> buttons and a round pointing device in between.  The Scrollpoint II is
> the one Rob describes (with either a blue or red oval pointing stick
> behind a middle mouse button), and it was available in both optical and
> mechanical configurations.  The Scrollpoint Pro ergonomic mouse was also
> available in both optical and mechanical setups; the mechanical version
> is absolutely miserable, but the optical version was great.
> 
> khm
> 

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Re: [9fans] acme and sam - mouse suggestions?

[Kurt H Maier via 9fans]

On Thu, Jan 27, 2022 at 08:39:09PM -0800, Kurt H Maier via 9fans wrote:
> The Scrollpoint Rob mentioned was made
> with both IBM and Lenovo branding, and was also available in a sculpted
> Pro model with a thumb-actuated fourth button.

I should specify:  the Scrollpoint mouse technically only has two
buttons and a round pointing device in between.  The Scrollpoint II is
the one Rob describes (with either a blue or red oval pointing stick
behind a middle mouse button), and it was available in both optical and
mechanical configurations.  The Scrollpoint Pro ergonomic mouse was also
available in both optical and mechanical setups; the mechanical version
is absolutely miserable, but the optical version was great.

khm


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Re: [9fans] acme and sam - mouse suggestions?

[Kurt H Maier via 9fans]

On Thu, Jan 27, 2022 at 07:48:15PM -0800, Ben Hancock wrote:
> Hi all,
> 
> Acme has become my main text editor and I'm in the market for a good 
> mouse with a decent middle click (i.e. B2). If product recommendations 
> aren't eschewed on the list, would fellow acme and/or sam users be 
> willing to share some mice suggestions? There seem to be a real dearth 
> of options that have a true middle button these days.
> 
> I'm currently using an Elecom mouse designed for use with CAD programs 
> that has a true middle button, and it does a serviceable job. But it 
> feels cheap and I fear it will break with much more use. I also recently 
> tried a gaming mouse -- a Roccat KAIN 100 Aimo -- after reading reviews 
> that its scroll wheel had a decent click. But while it's quite a nice 
> mouse, the middle click requires more pressure than I'd prefer.
> 
> Many thanks in advance!
> 
> - Ben

Many of us have had success with the Contour mice, both their
soon-discontinued 'Contour' model, available in various sizes, and their
'Unimouse' adjustable model.  HP model DY651A is a cheaper option,
but it's getting hard to find.  The Scrollpoint Rob mentioned was made
with both IBM and Lenovo branding, and was also available in a sculpted
Pro model with a thumb-actuated fourth button.

For a portable option, Lenovo sells a convertible 'Yoga' series of
wireless mice, which have two mechanical buttons and a touchpad-style
scrolling section in between; on all of these that I've tested, tapping
the scroll panel sends a middle click, and they support tap-and-hold as
you would expect.  I haven't tested some of the newer ones, and there's
always the danger some product manager got 'creative' instead of just
selling a useful product.

The Evoluent VerticalMouse series has three mechanical buttons plus a
scroll wheel between buttons 1 and 2.

Finally, the Logitech G series of gaming mice don't have separate middle
click -- they use the wheel for that -- but they frequently have other
buttons which can be configured to serve as button 2, and the
configuration software writes this setting to the device, so you don't
need weird driver support when you plug it into a real computer.

khm

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Re: [9fans] acme and sam - mouse suggestions?

[Mark van Atten]

HP DY651A, e.g. https://www.ebay.com/itm/234392830458

I bought three of them some ten years ago, and they are still working
perfectly. It seems the model is no longer in production. The original
price was very low. I seem to recall it was also sold as an IBM mouse.

Mark.

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Re: [9fans] acme and sam - mouse suggestions?

[John Floren]

My daily mouse is a Logitech 3-button mouse plugged into a PS2-USB adapter. 
Obviously they're not making them anymore but I've managed to acquire a bunch 
over the years. It's sturdy and works fine.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/384628597228

john

 Original Message 
On Jan 27, 2022, 7:48 PM, Ben Hancock wrote:

> Hi all,
> 
> Acme has become my main text editor and I'm in the market for a good
> mouse with a decent middle click (i.e. B2). If product recommendations
> aren't eschewed on the list, would fellow acme and/or sam users be
> willing to share some mice suggestions? There seem to be a real dearth
> of options that have a true middle button these days.
> 
> I'm currently using an Elecom mouse designed for use with CAD programs
> that has a true middle button, and it does a serviceable job. But it
> feels cheap and I fear it will break with much more use. I also recently
> tried a gaming mouse -- a Roccat KAIN 100 Aimo -- after reading reviews
> that its scroll wheel had a decent click. But while it's quite a nice
> mouse, the middle click requires more pressure than I'd prefer.
> 
> Many thanks in advance!
> 
> - Ben
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Re: [9fans] acme and sam - mouse suggestions?

[Rob Pike]

LENOVO SCROLLPOINT MOUSE - USB. I have a few of them.
None of mine have ever broken or needed maintenance.

Not sure they're made any more, and the IBM logo on this:
https://www.exxactcorp.com/Lenovo-31P7405-E1272118
may be indicative, but I've been using mine for 20+ years with
great satisfaction. And there is no wheel noise to annoy me.

Note that mine has an actual middle button, and although
it's hard to see from the picture, the text implies this version
does too. It may well be the same.


-rob


On Fri, Jan 28, 2022 at 2:49 PM Ben Hancock  wrote:

> Hi all,
> 
> Acme has become my main text editor and I'm in the market for a good
> mouse with a decent middle click (i.e. B2). If product recommendations
> aren't eschewed on the list, would fellow acme and/or sam users be
> willing to share some mice suggestions? There seem to be a real dearth
> of options that have a true middle button these days.
> 
> I'm currently using an Elecom mouse designed for use with CAD programs
> that has a true middle button, and it does a serviceable job. But it
> feels cheap and I fear it will break with much more use. I also recently
> tried a gaming mouse -- a Roccat KAIN 100 Aimo -- after reading reviews
> that its scroll wheel had a decent click. But while it's quite a nice
> mouse, the middle click requires more pressure than I'd prefer.
> 
> Many thanks in advance!
> 
> - Ben

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[9fans] acme and sam - mouse suggestions?

[Ben Hancock]

Hi all,

Acme has become my main text editor and I'm in the market for a good 
mouse with a decent middle click (i.e. B2). If product recommendations 
aren't eschewed on the list, would fellow acme and/or sam users be 
willing to share some mice suggestions? There seem to be a real dearth 
of options that have a true middle button these days.


I'm currently using an Elecom mouse designed for use with CAD programs 
that has a true middle button, and it does a serviceable job. But it 
feels cheap and I fear it will break with much more use. I also recently 
tried a gaming mouse -- a Roccat KAIN 100 Aimo -- after reading reviews 
that its scroll wheel had a decent click. But while it's quite a nice 
mouse, the middle click requires more pressure than I'd prefer.


Many thanks in advance!

- Ben

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Re: [9fans] building blocks speaking 9p

[Lucio De Re]

On 1/28/22, Bakul Shah  wrote:
> The idea:
> - make it very easy to create hardware gadgets by
>   providing a firmware/hardware building block that
>   talks 9p on the host interface side & interfaces
>   with device specific hardware.
>
> [ ... ]
>
Sounds very appealing.

There's a UEFI-based development that puts 9P2000 inside the modern
BIOS - excuse the imprecise language: I played with it and my
ignorance caused me to get frustrated before I could accomplish
anything with it. I'll dig up a github reference if anyone asks. I
found it while searching for something quite different.

> This will probably have to ride on USB first. A verilog
> implementation would be useful in an FPGA!
>
I never understood why USB receives so much attention (but thanks to
all those who valiantly tried to tame that wild beast!). What does it
do that PoE doesn't do infinitely better?

> Would this be a useful component? If such a thing were
> available, what would you want to build with it?
>
What I would want from such a tool is its availability within
educational institutions so we stop teaching greed technology to
learners and lower the knowledge entry bar that Intel and Microsoft -
and their allies - have created (that, I make no apologies for, is
Politics, the Politics of Technological Domination).

Lucio.

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Re: [9fans] licence question

[Kurt H Maier via 9fans]

On Thu, Jan 27, 2022 at 08:14:25PM -0500, ibrahim via 9fans wrote:
> Thanks for your hint ori,
> 
> After searching for Copying, Copyright, Licence I found these problematic 
> commands (libs) :
> 
> Xen (9f)
> diff (9f,l9)
> patch (9f, l9)
> ghostscript (9f, l9)
> mp3dec (9f, l9)
> lzip (l9)
> 
> 9f ... 9font
> l9 ... legacy9
> 
> I'm not sure how problematic icclib could be. Clause 4 could be dangerous 
> regarding ... derived from based on ... 

None of these prohibit redistribution.  Feel free to delete them from
your copy.

khm

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Re: [9fans] licence question

[Lucio De Re]

On 1/28/22, ibrahim via 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> wrote:
> I noticed that I can't distribute fonts and ghostscript as part of a plan9
> (9legacy, 9front) system due to their licensing terms.
>
Any font you realy, really can't live without?

> Does anybody know about code, libraries, binaries, documentation present on
> the latest 9legacy or 9front iso's which are outside the newly applied
> MIT-licence ?
>
South Africans are like Yankee pioneers, incapable of any discipline;
I have been brain-washed into the same mold and don't care much for
copyright, just to set the tone here.

What I've found is that P9P's fontsrv is quite capable of providing
access to just about any font type in common usage with minimal
incantations.

Fontsrv is a little buggy, various versions in different manners, but
all failure modes I have encountered so far are non-destructive.
Anyone interested in giving me a hand consolidating the code into a
single, architecture-agnostic tool, please do contact me. What works
more or less out of the box is pretty good, it deserves more love and
affection.

Lucio.

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Re: [9fans] building blocks speaking 9p

[Thaddeus Woskowiak]

I've been saying the same thing for years. 9p makes for a great control
protocol that presents a simple way to present data, a tree of files.

Charles Forsyth wrote an Atmega compiler for plan 9. That could be used as
the basis for a plan 9 Arduino thing. We likely need a mulibc.h or whatever
and a loader to send the binary to the Arduino micro controller. Someone
patched 9front usbserial to recognize Arduino USB boards as usbeia devices.
(I think Miller's pi and labs does too?). Out of the box microcontroller
support with 9p libs would be a really nice thing to have.

Echoline wrote ninepea, an Arduino 9p library. This currently works and can
be mounted on a plan 9 machine and you can talk to your Arduino though
files. Though this uses the official Arduino library and compiler which
does not work on plan 9 (on 9front you can use vmx to run a Linux vm)

One compiler that we really need is an arm thumb 2 compiler for cortex-m/r
microcontrollers. Inferno has a very old and very incomplete arm thumb 1
compiler, tc. I don't know if it's worth salvaging.

Personally, I'm (slwly)working on using Plan 9 for personal industrial
automation projects. I have some crude modbus stuff working.

At work I've used it on a RasPi to tie a PLC to an HDMI heads up display
that uses ASCII commands. Dumb easy to write a C  program for that on Plan
9.


On Thu, Jan 27, 2022, 5:58 PM Bakul Shah  wrote:

> The idea:
> - make it very easy to create hardware gadgets by
>   providing a firmware/hardware building block that
>   talks 9p on the host interface side & interfaces
>   with device specific hardware.
> 
> - use a "universal" 9p driver on the host side that
>   allows access to any such 9p device even from a shell.
> 
> - provide a standard way to find out device capabilities.
> 
> - together they provide a plug-and-play setup.
> 
> Example: connect an LED and a current sensor to this
> 9p device, other necessary hardware, add a few config
> bits and plug this device kn]]into a host. Now you should
> be able to turn on/off the light or sense its state.
> 
> Similarly you should be able to control a stepper motor
> servo, cameras, microphones, other actuators, sensors,
> IO etc. Eventually you should be able to snap together
> enough of these components to build larger assemblies
> such as a 3D printer.
> 
> Another example: a "hub" to multiplex such downstream
> devices and make them available to a host.
> 
> This will probably have to ride on USB first. A verilog
> implementation would be useful in an FPGA!
> 
> Would this be a useful component? If such a thing were
> available, what would you want to build with it?
> 
> Do you think 9p is the right protocol for this?
> 
> Ideally
> - connect anything to anything
> - authenticated connections
> - drive the device through a shell script
> - no new low level drivers
> - self-identifying devices with help and command syntax
> - signicantly eases the task of creating new h/w devices.

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[9fans] suggestion : new service targets for plan9

[ibrahim via 9fans]

I developed a kiosk version of plan9 (based on 9front and legacy9) and am about 
to develop a single user desktop system. Those can coexist with the existing 
plan9 system.

I named the new service targets kiosk and desktop. Both work without rio.

Currently I used initdraw, initmouse, initkeyboard, loadimage, flushimage from 
devdraw to avoid breaking of compatibility with the existing plan9 systems 
while the whole rendering of the windows is framebuffer based. Instead of the 
usual plan9 fonts I used regular truetypefonts. 

So my suggestions would be :

1) Define new service targets kiosk and desktop (Currently I do this in init or 
/user/.../lib/profile. This makes it possible for a user to start an 
alternative window manager or even a single applicaton (kiosk service) with a 
modern look and feel.

2) Define a layer between vga and devdraw perhaps vgafb which improves the 
performance for frame buffer rendered window managers. 

3) Define events for mouse, keyboard, touchpad, windows which is based on notes 
managed by light threads inside the client app. 

Those three steps would protect the existing plan9 from changes and make it 
possible to only use the kernel, libraries, tools from alternative user 
interfaces. Plan9 is one of the smallest operating systems accompanied with a 
compiler and an abstraction which would attract much more developers and users 
if it had a modern user interface. We don't have to throw away anything and rio 
would even be able to run inside a window of a modern desktop. 

Plan9 has everything necessary to make it an attractive system not only for a 
handful of developers. The compilers, the portability, 9p, unicode, direct 
support for video hardware and its small size are fascinating. 

The only reason why it isn't recognized by more people is its GUI. I don't get 
the reason why we wouldn't extent it so we can use other GUI's while keeping 
the existing in respect of the developers who created this system. 

I will integrate this changes but I would prefer staying fully compatible to 
the existing projects legacy9 and 9front even more I would prefer not forking 
any of them but sharing my parts as contributions.

What I need and what those changes need is a separation level between devdraw 
and the graphics hardware and a new event mechanism which can be based on notes 
or equals.

I'm not a native English speaker so excuse the many mistakes.

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Re: [9fans] licence question

[ibrahim via 9fans]

Thanks for your hint ori,

After searching for Copying, Copyright, Licence I found these problematic 
commands (libs) :

Xen (9f)
diff (9f,l9)
patch (9f, l9)
ghostscript (9f, l9)
mp3dec (9f, l9)
lzip (l9)

9f ... 9font
l9 ... legacy9

I'm not sure how problematic icclib could be. Clause 4 could be dangerous 
regarding ... derived from based on ... 
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Re: [9fans] licence question

[ori]

Quoth ibrahim via 9fans <9fans@9fans.net>:
> I'm lucky cause I don't need ghostscript, page (depending on it) the fonts. 
> I'm using a framebuffer renderer instead of rio for my tiny kiosk version of 
> 9front. 
> 
> My code depends on the bootloader, the drivers, kernelcode, libraries from 
> 9front. Especially the WiFi-drivers, usb support ramfs and loop-devices as 
> implemented by 9front and those are all MIT licenced as far as I understood.
> 
> Do you have a recommended copyright notice which I can display or would you 
> prefer links to p9f, legacy9 and 9front while displaying the MIT licence. My 
> distribution will be closed source but I intend to share some parts with the 
> community.
> 

Take a look in /lib/legal.


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Re: [9fans] licence question

[ibrahim via 9fans]

I'm lucky cause I don't need ghostscript, page (depending on it) the fonts. I'm 
using a framebuffer renderer instead of rio for my tiny kiosk version of 
9front. 

My code depends on the bootloader, the drivers, kernelcode, libraries from 
9front. Especially the WiFi-drivers, usb support ramfs and loop-devices as 
implemented by 9front and those are all MIT licenced as far as I understood.

Do you have a recommended copyright notice which I can display or would you 
prefer links to p9f, legacy9 and 9front while displaying the MIT licence. My 
distribution will be closed source but I intend to share some parts with the 
community.

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Re: [9fans] licence question

[hiro]

yes, but it's ok to distribute

On 1/28/22, ibrahim via 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> wrote:
> Thanks hiro.
>
> Regarding ghostscript :
>
> In plan9-2e this was written in README.Plan9
>
>> Aladdin Ghostscript has been licensed to be included with the
>> release of Plan 9.  Minor changes were made to the sources to
>> accommodate a couple of restrictions in the APE library and to
>> produce Plan 9 output formats.  These changes are all conditioned
>> by
>> #ifdefPlan9
>> and were made in December, 1994.  As well, the build was rearranged
>> to be driven by a Plan 9 mkfile.
>>
> 
> After Realease 4 the ghostscript version was updated and in the folder
> cmd/gs/doc/public.html is part of the distribution and that isn't conforming
> to the MIT licence. 3 2 Restrictions makes commerical use without a written
> licence from Aladdin imposible.
> 

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Re: [9fans] licence question

[ibrahim via 9fans]

Thanks hiro.

Regarding ghostscript : 

In plan9-2e this was written in README.Plan9

> Aladdin Ghostscript has been licensed to be included with the
> release of Plan 9.  Minor changes were made to the sources to
> accommodate a couple of restrictions in the APE library and to
> produce Plan 9 output formats.  These changes are all conditioned
> by
> #ifdefPlan9
> and were made in December, 1994.  As well, the build was rearranged
> to be driven by a Plan 9 mkfile.
> 

After Realease 4 the ghostscript version was updated and in the folder 
cmd/gs/doc/public.html is part of the distribution and that isn't conforming to 
the MIT licence. 3 2 Restrictions makes commerical use without a written 
licence from Aladdin imposible. 


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[9fans] building blocks speaking 9p

[Bakul Shah]

The idea:
- make it very easy to create hardware gadgets by
  providing a firmware/hardware building block that
  talks 9p on the host interface side & interfaces
  with device specific hardware.

- use a "universal" 9p driver on the host side that
  allows access to any such 9p device even from a shell.

- provide a standard way to find out device capabilities.

- together they provide a plug-and-play setup.

Example: connect an LED and a current sensor to this
9p device, other necessary hardware, add a few config
bits and plug this device kn]]into a host. Now you should
be able to turn on/off the light or sense its state.

Similarly you should be able to control a stepper motor
servo, cameras, microphones, other actuators, sensors,
IO etc. Eventually you should be able to snap together
enough of these components to build larger assemblies
such as a 3D printer.

Another example: a "hub" to multiplex such downstream
devices and make them available to a host.

This will probably have to ride on USB first. A verilog
implementation would be useful in an FPGA!

Would this be a useful component? If such a thing were
available, what would you want to build with it?

Do you think 9p is the right protocol for this?

Ideally
- connect anything to anything
- authenticated connections
- drive the device through a shell script
- no new low level drivers
- self-identifying devices with help and command syntax
- signicantly eases the task of creating new h/w devices.

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Re: [9fans] licence question

[hiro]

no, as far as i know, just those B fonts in particular are non-free.
i think the ghostscript code can be distributed without any issues.
9front policy is that all new code is MIT.

On 1/27/22, ibrahim via 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> wrote:
> I noticed that I can't distribute fonts and ghostscript as part of a plan9
> (9legacy, 9front) system due to their licensing terms.
> 
> Does anybody know about code, libraries, binaries, documentation present on
> the latest 9legacy or 9front iso's which are outside the newly applied
> MIT-licence ?
> 
> Thanks in advance

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Re: [9fans] Sponsoring a new Intro book by the Flan 9 Poundation

[hiro]

> It's important to discuss politics.
>
> Elsewhere.

Since everything is political, it has to be discussed everywhere. At
least until everybody gets tired and resumes their non-political
boring everyday stupors.

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[9fans] licence question

[ibrahim via 9fans]

I noticed that I can't distribute fonts and ghostscript as part of a plan9 
(9legacy, 9front) system due to their licensing terms. 

Does anybody know about code, libraries, binaries, documentation present on the 
latest 9legacy or 9front iso's which are outside the newly applied MIT-licence ?

Thanks in advance

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Re: [9fans] Sponsoring a new Intro book by the Flan 9 Poundation

[Giacomo Tesio]

Hi hiro.

History is full of counter examples that contraddict your thesis.

At least since neolithic, human organization has been determinated by 
technology.
The most recent (and most directly related to informatics) were Gutemberg's 
movable-type
printing press, Meucci's telephone, the general purpose CPU and obviously 
the Internet.

But ancient sailing tech, the steam engine, the car, the H bomb, are few among 
thousands of examples of technological innovation that enabled new (and
always more complex) kind of human organizations.

Actually one could argue that technology is the most powerful political force 
in human society.

On January 27, 2022 9:02:29 PM UTC, hiro <23h...@gmail.com> wrote:
> the majority of "hackers" have already failed to be political, when
> they sold their souls to the big corps like google and amazon.

You are confusing hackers with engineers.

Most hackers ARE politically aware.
They pursuit knowledge instead of power, money or prestige, but they are aware 
of
the consequences of their hack.

Yet they might align with power anyway.
Some are blind enough or careless enough or individualistic enough to only care 
about 
their own fun hacks.


Take Pike or Thompson: they were pioneers, invented C, Plan9 and all the stuff 
we love
but now they work in Google (afaik).

Were they hacker?

I can't say if they were or they were just great engineers, but for sure they 
now align 
with Google interests and approve its business model based on surveillance 
capitalism.


On the other hand, RMS, Terry A. Davis or Phineas Fisher, Ola Bini are all very 
politically aware hackers, each in his own way.


Sure, since ever, Power system try to get control of hackers.
Sometime they manage to jail us. Sometime we escape. [1]


Giacomo

[1] http://www.tesio.it/2020/09/03/not_all_hackers_are_americans.html

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Re: [9fans] Sponsoring a new Intro book by the Flan 9 Poundation

[ori]

Quoth hiro <23h...@gmail.com>:
> > Side note: technology is political. Deal with it.
> 
> I disagree.

Can you please disagree off-list?


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Re: [9fans] Sponsoring a new Intro book by the Flan 9 Poundation

[Wes Kussmaul]

On 1/27/22 16:02, hiro wrote:

the majority of "hackers" have already failed to be political, when
they sold their souls to the big corps like google and amazon.



You mean like https://silibandia.com?



*Wes Kussmaul*

*Reliable Identities, Inc.*
an Authenticity Enterprise
738 Main Street
Waltham, MA 02451 USA
t: +1 781 790 1674
m: +1 781 330 1881
e: w...@reliableid.com

Learn About Authenticity 

This message is confidential. It may also be privileged or otherwise 
protected by work product immunity or other legal rules. If you have 
received it by mistake, please let us know by e-mail reply and delete it 
from your system; you may not copy this message or disclose its contents 
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Re: [9fans] Sponsoring a new Intro book by the Flan 9 Poundation

[hiro]

> Side note: technology is political. Deal with it.

I disagree.
Most of the time the forces in power will survive the changes in
technology or even use it for their own benefit, possibly against you
or against your philosophy you came up for in support of your
technology.

Of course there could be a phantastic exception where you use
technology to create a revolution to overcome the status quo, but
that's highly unlikely.

the majority of "hackers" have already failed to be political, when
they sold their souls to the big corps like google and amazon.

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Re: [9fans] Sponsoring a new Intro book by the Flan 9 Poundation

[ori]

Quoth raingloom :
> Side note: technology is political. Deal with it.

Everything is political, but allowing posts on a
topic to become explicitly political generally ends
up completely derailing the technical topic.

All too often, the only post with technical content
is the first post in a thread.  The technical content
is drowned in the bullshit.

As a result, help is given off-list if it's given at
all.  It protects the questioner from the deluge of
noise, but hides any debugging steps from anyone who
could learn from them.

This kills the list.

It's important to discuss politics.

Elsewhere.

If you don't have anything technical to say about
plan 9, don't hit the send button.


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Re: [9fans] Problems installing 9legacy on bare metal (Thinkpad X60)

[yakkuliste via 9fans]

Richard has been very forthcoming off-list in trying to get 9legacy working on 
my machines. But there are still a few things that aren't quite working, so 
let's bring this thread up to speed.

On the X60s, Plan 9 now runs on bare metal but I can't establish an ethernet 
connection. Even when I run ipconfig and ndb/dns manually after boot, it 
doesn't solve the issue, because there is an issue with the mp table.

cat /dev/kmesg
[...]
#l0: i82573: 1Gbps port 0xEE00 irq 11: 0016d3b8c206
mpintrenable: multiple botch irq11, tbdf 500, lo 0049, n 0049
mpintrenable: out of choices eisa -1 isa 22 tbdf 0xc03 irq 11
intrenable: couldn't enable irq 11, tbdf 0xC03 for ether1
wpi: [...]
#l1: [...]
mpintrenable: multiple botch irq11, tbdf 500, lo 0049, n 0049
mpintrenable: out of choices eisa -1 isa 22 tbdf 0xc00ef00 irq 11
intrenable: couldn't enable irq 11, tbdf 0xC0EF000 for usbehci
[...]
init: starting /bin/rc
ipconfig: no success with DHCP
ndb/dns: can't read my ip address

It takes ages to start rc due to the latter two entries.

I've tried the BIOS in AHCI, but that returns only more errors, so I have it 
run in IDE compatibility mode again. The hardware works fine together under 
OpenBSD, so it can't be an incompatibility issue there. I understand that the 
MP table may be broken, so I'm wondering whether there is a way of fixing it or 
whether I would just need to update the BIOS 2.14>2.19 (which would mean buying 
an X6 Ultrabase with optical drive) and the problem would be solved.

On the X60, I can't partition the disk during installation. [partdisk] keeps 
failing.  Again, mpintrenable has not been very kind to me. As above, it cannot 
enable irq 11 for usbuhci and iahci and can't seem to recognise the hard drive 
(sdE0): 

sdE0: retry blk 0
sdE0: retry blk 0
sdE0: retry blk 0
sdE0: retry blk 0
sdE0: retry blk 0
sdE0: bad disk

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Re: [9fans] Difference between Plan 9 legacy and 9front

[sml]

Thank you so much for your detailed and helpful reply. So far I've found some 
informative (if a bit older) sites on 9legacy and 9front, but your explanation 
really helps me classify the two approaches.
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Re: [9fans] Difference between Plan 9 legacy and 9front

[Keith Gibbs]

There is certainly a variety of opinions of what means what, but generally 
speaking:

9legacy: Continuation of Plan 9 from Bell Labs v4 with patches and fixes
9front: A close fork of Plan 9 focused on using and developing Plan 9 systems 
on modern hardware as a rolling and continually developed system.

Neither is (compared to say the variety of *nix distros) departing greatly from 
the source. Many of 9legacy’s patches are derived from 9front fixes and 
improvements.

There are two opinions of how these tactics are distinct:

1) 9legacy is current v4 Plan 9; 9front is the experimental test bed
2) 9legacy is maintaining the *historical* Plan 9, merely keeping the lights on 
in the museum; 9front is a living OS for people interested in practical use of 
the OS.

In the end, there is a bit of a dialectic here where *both* are true in a sense 
and neither are true in a sense. 

But this may allow you to figure out where to start.

If you are interested in understanding Plan 9 from a historical, software 
engineering perspective, 9legacy is the closest you get to what was installed 
and developed at Bell and Lucent.

If you are interested in incorporating the most modern iteration of a Plan 9 
system with best hardware support for using within your own workflow, go with 
9front. As an active user and community member of 9front, most of the people on 
the 9front side *use* 9front daily and have it incorporated in their personal 
or professional software development workflow, and I would argue there is a 
more active user/developer community.

That is not to say there aren’t developers actively using 9legacy (or p9p) for 
their work, nor that people only use one or the other exclusively, but it can 
give you a sense of orientation.

Both are now licensed freely and independently of Lucent, thanks P9F.

I hope this helps!

-pixelheresy

> On 27. Jan 2022, at 13.12, s...@firstpost.pub wrote:
> 
> Hello everyone, 
> 
> I'm really looking forward to getting to grips with Plan 9 in depth, but 
> would have a question in advance.
> 
> Since I want to use Plan 9 on an amd64 system, my understanding is that I am 
> left with two options: Plan 9 legacy and 9front. I want to use Plan 9 on bare 
> metal, so Plan9port would only be a stopgap.
> 
> To be able to decide on an option, I would like to understand the 
> differences. Do the two systems differ in their stated goals, or is 9front's 
> development merely historical (e.g. for licensing reasons)?
> 
> Many thanks in advance! 
> 9fans / 9fans / see discussions + participants + delivery options Permalink

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Re: [9fans] Difference between Plan 9 legacy and 9front

[Alexandr Babic]

i use 9front, has patches and updates :-)
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[9fans] Difference between Plan 9 legacy and 9front

[sml]

Hello everyone, 

I'm really looking forward to getting to grips with Plan 9 in depth, but would 
have a question in advance.

Since I want to use Plan 9 on an amd64 system, my understanding is that I am 
left with two options: Plan 9 legacy and 9front. I want to use Plan 9 on bare 
metal, so Plan9port would only be a stopgap.

To be able to decide on an option, I would like to understand the differences. 
Do the two systems differ in their stated goals, or is 9front's development 
merely historical (e.g. for licensing reasons)?

Many thanks in advance! 
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Re: [9fans] Sponsoring a new Intro book by the Flan 9 Poundation

[Giacomo Tesio]

Hi raingloom, mycroftiv and 9fans,

As you might know I'm pretty heretic in Plan 9 (as much that my for is called 
Jehanne) 
and I'm also very sympathetic with SJW victims, mostly because SJW basically
try to impose worldwide a US-workplace ethos that is compatible with US-styled 
corporate management.

More often than not, they are in good faith.
But ultimately they become tools of US colonialism, spreading their cultural 
hegemony.
The trick is basically: convince everybody that they have your problems 
(eg, systemic racism, lgtqmi+ phobics, gender bias and so on) so that they
will accept your corporate-friendly solutions (eg CoCs...)

In Europe being inclusive doesn't mean to be hypocrital, and that's why I'd 
really like 
to know what "sin" Nemo did to cause all this debate.

More often than not, SJW raise their swords after fictional issues that amount 
to nothing
and could be basically settled with a honest conversation between openminded 
adults.

More often than not, what a SJW consider outragous and evil, is said
in a completely different cultural context and environment, so much that they
simply can't (or don't care to) interpret it as intended and understood in that 
context.

Finally, more often than not, SJW inclusiveness stops before weird people,
(like hackers often are) that do NOT belong to the demographic groups that
populate US's remorse, like blacks, women and so on.

Not to mention that often they are plain blind with the harm their corporations 
cause worldwide (think of the Facebook's SJW that obtained the removal of RMS 
from GCC Steering Committee).

On January 27, 2022 4:35:16 AM UTC, raingloom  wrote:
> 
> Side note: technology is political. Deal with it. Software that helps
> no one is of no use and who you choose to help with software and count
> as a stakeholder (which includes but is not limited to users) is an
> inherently political question. Ignoring that just means that you prefer
> the status quo.

I totally agree with this. [1]

Since neolithic, technology is a prosecution of politics by other means.

I agree so much that all my free software projects include a POLITICS.txt that 
explicitly declares the political goals they have.


However, thanks God, not all politics is based on cancel culture, yet.
Hackers do not cancel, we create.

If you feel the need to cancel Nemo's great influence over Plan 9, I'm not 
interested.

If you want to update his great books, eg to describe 9front, I'd really like 
to help.
But I'd love to work WITH Nemo, not against him.

I might disagree with Nemo's view on general politics (I really do not know his 
takes 
on anything) but I think I might well work with him on a well defined political 
goal
(say "document 9front internals so that anybody can more easily hack it").

Or maybe he doesn't like 9front and prefer to stick to plan9foundation's code, 
in 
which case I would't partecipate because I can't trust several of the founders 
[2].


Sure, as you say, deciding who your project serves and how is a political 
choice.
But it has nothing to do with who you cancel.


Technology is Politics.

But Politics, to me, is to build bridges, not walls.
Cancelling Nemo is not a political achievement.

Building on the great work he donated to this community, is.


My 2 cents.



Giacomo

[1] http://www.tesio.it/2019/06/03/what-is-informatics.html

[2] 
http://www.tesio.it/2018/02/14/what-i-wish-i-knew-before-contributing-to-open-source.html

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