Re: [9fans] C question on struct Biobuf in bio.h
On 7 October 2014 18:27, Álvaro Jurado elbingm...@gmail.com wrote: , and ld could not assign right the values if declarations are not specified ansi style (variable initialization it's made by ld, not by the compiler): you will get some dragons in some cases. Initialisations of externals is done by the compiler, which lays things out as .long etc. ld doesn't do anything special; it doesn't even know about them.
[9fans] C question on struct Biobuf in bio.h
Hello,
in bio.h there is a
struct Biobuf
{
Biobufhdr;
uchar b[Bungetsize+Bsize];
};
where Biobufhdr is declared as
typedef struct Biobufhdr Biobufhdr;
To make it compile with gcc under UNIX I changed the struct to
struct Biobuf
{
Biobufhdr Biobufhdr;
uchar b[Bungetsize+Bsize];
};
but is that what is meant by the original description above?
Carsten
Re: [9fans] C question on struct Biobuf in bio.h
hi,
no, it is an anonym field. and it is used in a way that is not part
of ansi c. there is an extension in newer versions of gcc which
supports it, but if you wan't to port plan 9 c to unix you can use the
libs from plan9port. that's far more easier.
bence
2014-10-07 17:24 GMT+02:00 Carsten Kunze carsten.ku...@arcor.de:
Hello,
in bio.h there is a
struct Biobuf
{
Biobufhdr;
uchar b[Bungetsize+Bsize];
};
where Biobufhdr is declared as
typedef struct Biobufhdr Biobufhdr;
To make it compile with gcc under UNIX I changed the struct to
struct Biobuf
{
Biobufhdr Biobufhdr;
uchar b[Bungetsize+Bsize];
};
but is that what is meant by the original description above?
Carsten
Re: [9fans] C question on struct Biobuf in bio.h
in bio.h there is a
struct Biobuf
{
Biobufhdr;
uchar b[Bungetsize+Bsize];
};
where Biobufhdr is declared as
typedef struct Biobufhdr Biobufhdr;
This is an unnamed structure. Recent versions of GCC
should be able to handle them when setting the
-fplan9-extension flag.
Otherwise, your change is fine, but hdr would probably be
a better name than Biobufhdr. Also, don't forget to update
your code to use b-hdr.fid instead of b-fid, and so on.
--
David du Colombier
Re: [9fans] C question on struct Biobuf in bio.h
Otherwise, your change is fine, but hdr would probably be a better name than Biobufhdr. Also, don't forget to update your code to use b-hdr.fid instead of b-fid, and so on. Thanks for all answers! (They also helped to find a short documentation in /sys/doc/compiler) Carsten
Re: [9fans] C question on struct Biobuf in bio.h
I'm using gcc to compile plan9 code from some time (4.7/4.8) and that option are masking real behaviour. Do not warns or put out an error about anonymous structs, but you will have a conflict if to structs in the same source are including a, for example, Lock; element, and ld could not assign right the values if declarations are not specified ansi style (variable initialization it's made by ld, not by the compiler): you will get some dragons in some cases. Look at LP49 source code and you will see that authors used your second way. Álvaro Jurado Cuevas colmenar.biz.tm 2014-10-07 17:58 GMT+02:00 Carsten Kunze carsten.ku...@arcor.de: Otherwise, your change is fine, but hdr would probably be a better name than Biobufhdr. Also, don't forget to update your code to use b-hdr.fid instead of b-fid, and so on. Thanks for all answers! (They also helped to find a short documentation in /sys/doc/compiler) Carsten
Re: [9fans] c compiler bug
On Mon, Feb 18, 2013 at 9:38 AM, Charles Forsyth charles.fors...@gmail.comwrote: On 18 February 2013 13:02, Comeau At9Fans comeauat9f...@gmail.com wrote: seems to be doing is setting up allowing the call to compile and once that is satisfied then the subsequent definition has to match it, as perhaps a way to do type punning. No, the compiler is simply applying scope rules. Without that inner declaration explicitly overriding the outer declaration--whether static or extern is used-- it will not compile (eg, if you put static void fn(Outer*); or extern void fn(Outer*); and remove static from fn in the file scope). The behaviour is undefined in ANSI C if two declarations that refer to the same object or function do not have compatible types (normally, you're protected by another rule that you can't have incompatible declarations *in the same scope*). ANSI C does, however, forbid the inner static declaration (which surprised me) The declaration of an identifier for a function that has block scope shall have no explicit storage-class specifier other than extern. (6.7.1) We're probably saying the same thing. As you say ANSI C forbids it hence my comment about normally a diagnostic from a so-called mainstream compiler. And as you say without a declaration it would not compile either. The declaration should normally be in global scope (it could have been), which would have also produced a diagnostic since Inner/Outer don't match. That leaves the declaration where Eric showed it, which the Plan 9 compiler obviously allowed. As you note the net effect is it's undefined (if we're using ANSI C as the metric) hence created a kind of type pun (even if the original code did it as a mistake). -- Greg Comeau / 4.3.10.1 with C++0xisms now in beta! Comeau C/C++ ONLINE == http://www.comeaucomputing.com/tryitout World Class Compilers: Breathtaking C++, Amazing C99, Fabulous C90. Comeau C/C++ with Dinkumware's Libraries... Have you tried it?
Re: [9fans] c compiler bug
On Mon, Feb 18, 2013 at 10:02 AM, erik quanstrom quans...@quanstro.netwrote: No, the compiler is simply applying scope rules. Without that inner declaration explicitly overriding the outer declaration--whether static or extern is used-- it will not compile (eg, if you put static void fn(Outer*); or extern void fn(Outer*); and remove static from fn in the file scope). since nested functions are not allowed, applying nested scope seems a bit odd. anyway, ... It's often to be refrained from even if it were extern and not static. if the declaration were in the same place but the referenced function were in another file, the -T would have prevented the link. my question is, why doesn't the c compiler internally apply the same rule? Wild guessing that it's probably an oversight that it got allowed. -- Greg Comeau / 4.3.10.1 with C++0xisms now in beta! Comeau C/C++ ONLINE == http://www.comeaucomputing.com/tryitout World Class Compilers: Breathtaking C++, Amazing C99, Fabulous C90. Comeau C/C++ with Dinkumware's Libraries... Have you tried it?
Re: [9fans] c compiler bug
can you please stop sending html mails? thanks On 2/21/13, Comeau At9Fans comeauat9f...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, Feb 18, 2013 at 9:38 AM, Charles Forsyth charles.fors...@gmail.comwrote: On 18 February 2013 13:02, Comeau At9Fans comeauat9f...@gmail.com wrote: seems to be doing is setting up allowing the call to compile and once that is satisfied then the subsequent definition has to match it, as perhaps a way to do type punning. No, the compiler is simply applying scope rules. Without that inner declaration explicitly overriding the outer declaration--whether static or extern is used-- it will not compile (eg, if you put static void fn(Outer*); or extern void fn(Outer*); and remove static from fn in the file scope). The behaviour is undefined in ANSI C if two declarations that refer to the same object or function do not have compatible types (normally, you're protected by another rule that you can't have incompatible declarations *in the same scope*). ANSI C does, however, forbid the inner static declaration (which surprised me) The declaration of an identifier for a function that has block scope shall have no explicit storage-class specifier other than extern. (6.7.1) We're probably saying the same thing. As you say ANSI C forbids it hence my comment about normally a diagnostic from a so-called mainstream compiler. And as you say without a declaration it would not compile either. The declaration should normally be in global scope (it could have been), which would have also produced a diagnostic since Inner/Outer don't match. That leaves the declaration where Eric showed it, which the Plan 9 compiler obviously allowed. As you note the net effect is it's undefined (if we're using ANSI C as the metric) hence created a kind of type pun (even if the original code did it as a mistake). -- Greg Comeau / 4.3.10.1 with C++0xisms now in beta! Comeau C/C++ ONLINE == http://www.comeaucomputing.com/tryitout World Class Compilers: Breathtaking C++, Amazing C99, Fabulous C90. Comeau C/C++ with Dinkumware's Libraries... Have you tried it?
Re: [9fans] c compiler bug
I think his mail client is just too world-class, breathtaking, amazing, and fabulous--have you tried it? On Thu, Feb 21, 2013 at 10:13 AM, hiro 23h...@gmail.com wrote: can you please stop sending html mails? thanks On 2/21/13, Comeau At9Fans comeauat9f...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, Feb 18, 2013 at 9:38 AM, Charles Forsyth charles.fors...@gmail.comwrote: On 18 February 2013 13:02, Comeau At9Fans comeauat9f...@gmail.com wrote: seems to be doing is setting up allowing the call to compile and once that is satisfied then the subsequent definition has to match it, as perhaps a way to do type punning. No, the compiler is simply applying scope rules. Without that inner declaration explicitly overriding the outer declaration--whether static or extern is used-- it will not compile (eg, if you put static void fn(Outer*); or extern void fn(Outer*); and remove static from fn in the file scope). The behaviour is undefined in ANSI C if two declarations that refer to the same object or function do not have compatible types (normally, you're protected by another rule that you can't have incompatible declarations *in the same scope*). ANSI C does, however, forbid the inner static declaration (which surprised me) The declaration of an identifier for a function that has block scope shall have no explicit storage-class specifier other than extern. (6.7.1) We're probably saying the same thing. As you say ANSI C forbids it hence my comment about normally a diagnostic from a so-called mainstream compiler. And as you say without a declaration it would not compile either. The declaration should normally be in global scope (it could have been), which would have also produced a diagnostic since Inner/Outer don't match. That leaves the declaration where Eric showed it, which the Plan 9 compiler obviously allowed. As you note the net effect is it's undefined (if we're using ANSI C as the metric) hence created a kind of type pun (even if the original code did it as a mistake). -- Greg Comeau / 4.3.10.1 with C++0xisms now in beta! Comeau C/C++ ONLINE == http://www.comeaucomputing.com/tryitout World Class Compilers: Breathtaking C++, Amazing C99, Fabulous C90. Comeau C/C++ with Dinkumware's Libraries... Have you tried it?
Re: [9fans] c compiler bug
On Thu Feb 21 13:23:26 EST 2013, j...@jfloren.net wrote: I think his mail client is just too world-class, breathtaking, amazing, and fabulous--have you tried it? On Thu, Feb 21, 2013 at 10:13 AM, hiro 23h...@gmail.com wrote: can you please stop sending html mails? thanks why does this bother anybody? i hadn't even noticed, and i use nedmail to read my mail. which is somewhat of an admission of failure. i used to just bring up my mail box in acme until google started base64ing heavily. which is oddly another admission of defeat. after 40 years of trying, we still don't have 8-bit clean email. - erik
Re: [9fans] c compiler bug
On Thu, Feb 21, 2013 at 1:39 PM, erik quanstrom quans...@quanstro.netwrote: On Thu Feb 21 13:23:26 EST 2013, j...@jfloren.net wrote: I think his mail client is just too world-class, breathtaking, amazing, and fabulous--have you tried it? On Thu, Feb 21, 2013 at 10:13 AM, hiro 23h...@gmail.com wrote: can you please stop sending html mails? thanks why does this bother anybody? i hadn't even noticed, and i use nedmail to read my mail. which is somewhat of an admission of failure. i used to just bring up my mail box in acme until google started base64ing heavily. which is oddly another admission of defeat. after 40 years of trying, we still don't have 8-bit clean email. It's just gmail, perhaps my own admission of failure? :) -- Greg Comeau / 4.3.10.1 with C++0xisms now in beta! Comeau C/C++ ONLINE == http://www.comeaucomputing.com/tryitout World Class Compilers: Breathtaking C++, Amazing C99, Fabulous C90. Comeau C/C++ with Dinkumware's Libraries... Have you tried it?
Re: [9fans] c compiler bug
On Thu, Feb 21, 2013 at 01:39:14PM -0500, erik quanstrom wrote: On Thu Feb 21 13:23:26 EST 2013, j...@jfloren.net wrote: I think his mail client is just too world-class, breathtaking, amazing, and fabulous--have you tried it? On Thu, Feb 21, 2013 at 10:13 AM, hiro 23h...@gmail.com wrote: can you please stop sending html mails? thanks why does this bother anybody? i hadn't even noticed, and i use nedmail to read my mail. which is somewhat of an admission of failure. i used to just bring up my mail box in acme until google started base64ing heavily. which is oddly another admission of defeat. after 40 years of trying, we still don't have 8-bit clean email. - erik Are you seriously marking this request WORKSFORME
Re: [9fans] c compiler bug
On Thu, Feb 21, 2013 at 10:46 AM, Comeau At9Fans comeauat9f...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, Feb 21, 2013 at 1:39 PM, erik quanstrom quans...@quanstro.net wrote: On Thu Feb 21 13:23:26 EST 2013, j...@jfloren.net wrote: I think his mail client is just too world-class, breathtaking, amazing, and fabulous--have you tried it? On Thu, Feb 21, 2013 at 10:13 AM, hiro 23h...@gmail.com wrote: can you please stop sending html mails? thanks why does this bother anybody? i hadn't even noticed, and i use nedmail to read my mail. which is somewhat of an admission of failure. i used to just bring up my mail box in acme until google started base64ing heavily. which is oddly another admission of defeat. after 40 years of trying, we still don't have 8-bit clean email. It's just gmail, perhaps my own admission of failure? :) Gmail has interesting ideas sometimes about when it should send HTML. I seem to have figured out how to make it always send plain-text, but unfortunately I can't remember how exactly I did that. john
Re: [9fans] c compiler bug
Sorry, google's inconsistent mail interface made me post to the list instead of private. I didn't mean to make this a discussion of google's web technolgy, I just want to promote the sending of certain compatible formats that everyone can read without problems. My gmail only sends Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Your's can, too.
Re: [9fans] c compiler bug
Can I run it on my iPhone? Sent from my iPhone On Feb 21, 2013, at 11:58 AM, andrey mirtchovski mirtchov...@gmail.com wrote: good day. is this the p9p on osx help forum?
Re: [9fans] c compiler bug
no, but drawterm will (i believe). On 21 Feb 2013, at 20:27, David Leimbach leim...@gmail.com wrote: Can I run it on my iPhone? Sent from my iPhone On Feb 21, 2013, at 11:58 AM, andrey mirtchovski mirtchov...@gmail.com wrote: good day. is this the p9p on osx help forum?
Re: [9fans] c compiler bug
On Sat, Feb 16, 2013 at 9:38 PM, erik quanstrom quans...@quanstro.netwrote: i don't think this should link, since wrongaddr calls fn with an Outer* not an Inner*. ... Normally in more mainstream C the nested static void fn(Outer*); declaration would produce a diagnostic and instead what it (the compiler and the code) seems to be doing is setting up allowing the call to compile and once that is satisfied then the subsequent definition has to match it, as perhaps a way to do type punning. -- Greg Comeau / 4.3.10.1 with C++0xisms now in beta! Comeau C/C++ ONLINE == http://www.comeaucomputing.com/tryitout World Class Compilers: Breathtaking C++, Amazing C99, Fabulous C90. Comeau C/C++ with Dinkumware's Libraries... Have you tried it?
Re: [9fans] c compiler bug
On 18 February 2013 13:02, Comeau At9Fans comeauat9f...@gmail.com wrote: seems to be doing is setting up allowing the call to compile and once that is satisfied then the subsequent definition has to match it, as perhaps a way to do type punning. No, the compiler is simply applying scope rules. Without that inner declaration explicitly overriding the outer declaration--whether static or extern is used-- it will not compile (eg, if you put static void fn(Outer*); or extern void fn(Outer*); and remove static from fn in the file scope). The behaviour is undefined in ANSI C if two declarations that refer to the same object or function do not have compatible types (normally, you're protected by another rule that you can't have incompatible declarations *in the same scope*). ANSI C does, however, forbid the inner static declaration (which surprised me) The declaration of an identifier for a function that has block scope shall have no explicit storage-class specifier other than extern. (6.7.1)
Re: [9fans] c compiler bug
No, the compiler is simply applying scope rules. Without that inner declaration explicitly overriding the outer declaration--whether static or extern is used-- it will not compile (eg, if you put static void fn(Outer*); or extern void fn(Outer*); and remove static from fn in the file scope). since nested functions are not allowed, applying nested scope seems a bit odd. anyway, ... if the declaration were in the same place but the referenced function were in another file, the -T would have prevented the link. my question is, why doesn't the c compiler internally apply the same rule? - erik
Re: [9fans] c compiler bug
On 18 February 2013 15:02, erik quanstrom quans...@quanstro.net wrote: since nested functions are not allowed, applying nested scope seems a bit odd. Nevertheless, that is what it is.
[9fans] c compiler bug
i don't think this should link, since wrongaddr calls
fn with an Outer* not an Inner*.
#include u.h
#include libc.h
typedef struct Inner Inner;
typedef struct Outer Outer;
struct Inner {
int x;
};
struct Outer {
charbuf[0x1000];
Inner;
};
void
wrongaddr(Outer *o)
{
static void fn(Outer*);
fn(o);
}
void
main(void)
{
Outer *o;
o = malloc(sizeof *o);
memset(o, 0, sizeof *o);
print(addr o %#p\n, o);
print(addr o.x %#p\n, o-x);
wrongaddr(o);
}
static void
fn(Inner *i)
{
print(fn addr i.x %#p\n, i-x);
}
; 6.cbug
addr o 0x4018f0
addr o.x0x4028f0
fn addr i.x 0x4018f0
Re: [9fans] c++
On Mon, Dec 3, 2012 at 4:29 PM, Kurt H Maier kh...@intma.in wrote: If you ask around, you'll find tons of stories from people who took entry-level programming courses, taught in C++, who got in trouble for submitting C-compliant or similar code. Many schools teach design patterns and top-down object cruft as gospel, and actively punish students who merely submit clean, efficient code. this is an other example of the kind of stuff I have to do to please my professors: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7RJmoCWx4cE
Re: [9fans] C++
IMHO Go as a system programming language would be a step forward, but C++, obviously not... It's a beast and there are no good compact books about it.
Re: [9fans] c++
On Thu, 22 Nov 2012 15:54:11 +0100 Hugo Rivera uai...@gmail.com wrote: the fact that there are bigger problems in the world does not imply that we ourselves are in a position to do anything about them. heck, i see problems very close to home that i can't do much about. i can try to make arguments, but very often there is no direct influence that can be made. and being right is no comfort. Of course, it depends on the problem considered. But I think the big problems in the world have little to do with programming languages, particularly c++, which is the topic at hand. As far as I can see, a lot of the problems in the world are caused by people preferring to believe in things which seem clever but which turn out to be meaningless or actually wrong on deeper inspection. C++ seems to be much the same way, which doesn't make it part of the problem but does mean that if you teach it as a good and normal thing you are encouraging bad reasoning practices similar to those which cause the serious problems. Of course, teaching it as a good and normal thing is a far cry from responding to the OP's question, I don't mean to insult anyone who was doing that. On Thu, 22 Nov 2012 12:34:16 +0100 hiro 23h...@gmail.com wrote: C++ and java feel highly inconsistent and are full of stupid busywork and strange programming philosophies that you have to learn about, but teach you nothing. I quoted this because it's so similar to my own thoughts on the matter, but also is it just me or does anyone else think strange [...] philosophies that you have to learn about, but teach you nothing, sounds just like it's referring to some religion? -- Developing the austere intellectual discipline of keeping things sufficiently simple is in this environment a formidable challenge, both technically and educationally. -- Dijstraka, EWD898, 1984
Re: [9fans] c++
C++ and java feel highly inconsistent and are full of stupid busywork and strange programming philosophies that you have to learn about, I've written programs in both languages and you don't really have to worry about the philosophies, if by that is meant things like the Pattern stuff, when using the standard libraries or collections. I found Christopher Alexander's book fascinating, but I didn't really take to the Gang of Four's, which left me cold. I thought it was an interesting attempt, but I just didn't think it worked, although that was clearly a minority opinion! I thought it made simple things elaborate, and complicated things harder to follow.
Re: [9fans] c++
On Mon, Dec 03, 2012 at 02:13:53PM +, Charles Forsyth wrote: C++ and java feel highly inconsistent and are full of stupid busywork and strange programming philosophies that you have to learn about, I've written programs in both languages and you don't really have to worry about the philosophies, if by that is meant things like the Pattern stuff, when using the standard libraries or collections. This may be true, but this is not what is being taught at the university level.
Re: [9fans] c++
I see. That might be tedious. On 3 December 2012 14:58, Kurt H Maier kh...@intma.in wrote: This may be true, but this is not what is being taught at the university level.
Re: [9fans] c++
On Mon, Dec 03, 2012 at 03:21:37PM +, Charles Forsyth wrote: I see. That might be tedious. If you ask around, you'll find tons of stories from people who took entry-level programming courses, taught in C++, who got in trouble for submitting C-compliant or similar code. Many schools teach design patterns and top-down object cruft as gospel, and actively punish students who merely submit clean, efficient code. It's a problem.
Re: [9fans] C++
Yay! A C++ vs the world flamewar! Again. Let me just point out that writing a game engine consists of a little bit more than just calls to opengl. Game engine programmers tend to embed scripting languages in their engines as opposed to writing the engines in Java, C#, Python or Lua. P.S. Coincidentally, here's a link to Carmack's rant about how script interpreters suck: http://www.codingthewheel.com/game-dev/john-carmack-script-interpreters-considered-harmful P.P.S. idTech4 and above use C++. Carmack probably doesn't write idiomatic C anymore, considering his tips on doing functional programming in C++ ( http://www.altdevblogaday.com/2012/04/26/functional-programming-in-c/) 2012/11/23 dexen deVries dexen.devr...@gmail.com On Friday 23 of November 2012 10:47:09 Gorka Guardiola wrote: On Thu, Nov 22, 2012 at 11:32 PM, Winston Kodogo kod...@gmail.com wrote: But, let the record show, C++ has been scientifically shown to be an unbelievably crap and monstrously complex language, even though I earn my daily bread by using it. I was a contemporary of Dr Stroustrup when he was spending his time dragging the Cambridge mainframe to its knees using the Simula compiler - the kindest description I ever heard from friends in the computer lab was stubborn- and occasionally, ok frequently, or indeed always, am tempted to view C++ as his revenge on the world for pointing out that he doesn't have a clue how to program efficiently. Yes, this is why most games, which do not need speed or efficiency at all are programmed in C++. (...) you've just stepped on my pet peeve, apologies in advance for what follows. 'NITPICK' the bulk of in-game graphics processing is done via OpenGL calls/DirectX calls/whatever goes on the PS3' Cell CPU. the C++ parts could be replaced with Python and noone would be any the wiser. similarily, Youtube flash player does not decode nor scale video in Flash' Actionscript; the GPU does it. unless you have broken drivers like i had once, in which case it is /slow/. C++ for the assembly-line-style game development [1] is choosen as PHB's safe bet -- a.k.a. ``industry's stadard practice'' -- and not on technical merits. cue picture of Scott Adams (of Dilbert fame). if you really must, John Carmak writes idomatic C, not C++. NITPICK; [1] http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4821152 and countless other stories. -- dexen deVries [[[↓][→]]] Reality is just a convenient measure of complexity. -- Alvy Ray Smith
Re: [9fans] C++
Haskell On Tue, Nov 27, 2012 at 9:09 AM, Eugene Gorodinsky e.gorodin...@gmail.comwrote: Yay! A C++ vs the world flamewar! Again. Let me just point out that writing a game engine consists of a little bit more than just calls to opengl. Game engine programmers tend to embed scripting languages in their engines as opposed to writing the engines in Java, C#, Python or Lua. P.S. Coincidentally, here's a link to Carmack's rant about how script interpreters suck: http://www.codingthewheel.com/game-dev/john-carmack-script-interpreters-considered-harmful P.P.S. idTech4 and above use C++. Carmack probably doesn't write idiomatic C anymore, considering his tips on doing functional programming in C++ ( http://www.altdevblogaday.com/2012/04/26/functional-programming-in-c/) 2012/11/23 dexen deVries dexen.devr...@gmail.com On Friday 23 of November 2012 10:47:09 Gorka Guardiola wrote: On Thu, Nov 22, 2012 at 11:32 PM, Winston Kodogo kod...@gmail.com wrote: But, let the record show, C++ has been scientifically shown to be an unbelievably crap and monstrously complex language, even though I earn my daily bread by using it. I was a contemporary of Dr Stroustrup when he was spending his time dragging the Cambridge mainframe to its knees using the Simula compiler - the kindest description I ever heard from friends in the computer lab was stubborn- and occasionally, ok frequently, or indeed always, am tempted to view C++ as his revenge on the world for pointing out that he doesn't have a clue how to program efficiently. Yes, this is why most games, which do not need speed or efficiency at all are programmed in C++. (...) you've just stepped on my pet peeve, apologies in advance for what follows. 'NITPICK' the bulk of in-game graphics processing is done via OpenGL calls/DirectX calls/whatever goes on the PS3' Cell CPU. the C++ parts could be replaced with Python and noone would be any the wiser. similarily, Youtube flash player does not decode nor scale video in Flash' Actionscript; the GPU does it. unless you have broken drivers like i had once, in which case it is /slow/. C++ for the assembly-line-style game development [1] is choosen as PHB's safe bet -- a.k.a. ``industry's stadard practice'' -- and not on technical merits. cue picture of Scott Adams (of Dilbert fame). if you really must, John Carmak writes idomatic C, not C++. NITPICK; [1] http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4821152 and countless other stories. -- dexen deVries [[[↓][→]]] Reality is just a convenient measure of complexity. -- Alvy Ray Smith
Re: [9fans] C++
On Tue, Nov 27, 2012 at 11:57:43AM -0800, David Leimbach wrote: Haskell No.
Re: [9fans] C++
On Nov 23, 2012 6:03 AM, lu...@proxima.alt.za wrote: Are operating systems written in C for it's technical merits or because it is industry standard practice? Neither: pragmatism. The language and Unix grew up together, teaching each other many tricks. ++L And they are not all written in C.
Re: [9fans] c++
On Nov 22, 2012 8:31 AM, lu...@proxima.alt.za wrote: it's an Xbox game. and yes, you need it ;) Xbox-360? Surely it runs IBM code? Yes. IBM power pc :-) ++L
Re: [9fans] c++
On 11/22/2012 10:52 PM, tlaro...@polynum.com wrote: On Thu, Nov 22, 2012 at 05:18:03PM +, Charles Forsyth wrote: Yes, that would be silly. You need only the screwdriver, provided it's sonic, but I suppose that just emphasises your point about tools. You did not get the big picture: the screwdriver is for the engine; the hammer is to deal with people coming arguing about why you use a screwdriver... LOL! ROTF! On 22 November 2012 17:10, Kurt H Maier kh...@intma.in wrote: If someone came to me and asked me to rebuild an engine with a hammer and a screwdriver. -- Balwinder S bdheeman Dheeman (http://werc.homelinux.net/contact/)
Re: [9fans] C++
On Thu, Nov 22, 2012 at 11:32 PM, Winston Kodogo kod...@gmail.com wrote: But, let the record show, C++ has been scientifically shown to be an unbelievably crap and monstrously complex language, even though I earn my daily bread by using it. I was a contemporary of Dr Stroustrup when he was spending his time dragging the Cambridge mainframe to its knees using the Simula compiler - the kindest description I ever heard from friends in the computer lab was stubborn- and occasionally, ok frequently, or indeed always, am tempted to view C++ as his revenge on the world for pointing out that he doesn't have a clue how to program efficiently. Yes, this is why most games, which do not need speed or efficiency at all are programmed in C++. I don't like C++, but it is a tool and as such, it has shown it is useful in some environments. Is it aesthetically pleasant? no. Is it more complex than needed? yes. But claiming that it is not possible to program efficiently in C++ (or implying so) is going into religious grounds and negating reality. BTW, making ad-hominem attacks against a language author says more about you than the language itself. G.
Re: [9fans] C++
On Friday 23 of November 2012 10:47:09 Gorka Guardiola wrote: On Thu, Nov 22, 2012 at 11:32 PM, Winston Kodogo kod...@gmail.com wrote: But, let the record show, C++ has been scientifically shown to be an unbelievably crap and monstrously complex language, even though I earn my daily bread by using it. I was a contemporary of Dr Stroustrup when he was spending his time dragging the Cambridge mainframe to its knees using the Simula compiler - the kindest description I ever heard from friends in the computer lab was stubborn- and occasionally, ok frequently, or indeed always, am tempted to view C++ as his revenge on the world for pointing out that he doesn't have a clue how to program efficiently. Yes, this is why most games, which do not need speed or efficiency at all are programmed in C++. (...) you've just stepped on my pet peeve, apologies in advance for what follows. 'NITPICK' the bulk of in-game graphics processing is done via OpenGL calls/DirectX calls/whatever goes on the PS3' Cell CPU. the C++ parts could be replaced with Python and noone would be any the wiser. similarily, Youtube flash player does not decode nor scale video in Flash' Actionscript; the GPU does it. unless you have broken drivers like i had once, in which case it is /slow/. C++ for the assembly-line-style game development [1] is choosen as PHB's safe bet -- a.k.a. ``industry's stadard practice'' -- and not on technical merits. cue picture of Scott Adams (of Dilbert fame). if you really must, John Carmak writes idomatic C, not C++. NITPICK; [1] http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4821152 and countless other stories. -- dexen deVries [[[↓][→]]] Reality is just a convenient measure of complexity. -- Alvy Ray Smith
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Em 23/11/2012 08:21, dexen deVries escreveu: C++ for the assembly-line-style game development [1] is choosen as PHB's safe bet -- a.k.a. ``industry's stadard practice'' -- and not on technical merits. cue picture of Scott Adams (of Dilbert fame). Are operating systems written in C for it's technical merits or because it is industry standard practice? -- P.
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Are operating systems written in C for it's technical merits or because it is industry standard practice? Neither: pragmatism. The language and Unix grew up together, teaching each other many tricks. ++L
[9fans] C++
Been trying to read through this thread through the day and well I think the absurdity of your claim pretty much sums up a large portion of the thread, unfortunately. Ay Caramba indeed :( Hey, I haven't really been following this thread either. I have a day job, and was just channeling my inner Boyd and venting in my spare time because I entirely agree with Linus and jwz about C++. But thanks for the compliment about my summarising prowess. Bakul was right - that was rude. But he was also wrong, in that game programmers pretty much all write in C, a most excellent language, described in one of the finest books ever written about programming, rather than C++. But I've bought every single copy of The C++ Programming Language since it came out, have waded through the pompous and ponderous prose, grappled with the lack of a decent index, and seriously, can you read chapter 22 of the Special Edition with a straight face?
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On 11/20/2012 03:42 PM, Steve Simon wrote: How do you studiously not do something? Doesn't the imply working hard at something? Indeed, everything I did read about Go made it look very attractive so I am ignoring it as I know myself. If I read more I will start to get annoyed that I am wasting my time learning C++ when Go is a much better solution. Its the sam reason I use plan9 and not Windows/Linux/OSX etc. its a backhanded compliment to the Go authors that I must not look at their work (yet). Me, OTOH, would like see Go go out of fashion ASAP; What's so special a C/C++ programmer can't do what she/he can do with Go? -- Balwinder S bdheeman Dheeman (http://werc.homelinux.net/contact/)
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Me, OTOH, would like see Go go out of fashion ASAP; What's so special a C/C++ programmer can't do what she/he can do with Go? What is so special a COBOL programmer can't do? ++L
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On Thu, Nov 22, 2012 at 09:54:34AM +, Balwinder S Dheeman wrote: On 11/20/2012 03:42 PM, Steve Simon wrote: How do you studiously not do something? Doesn't the imply working hard at something? Indeed, everything I did read about Go made it look very attractive so I am ignoring it as I know myself. If I read more I will start to get annoyed that I am wasting my time learning C++ when Go is a much better solution. Its the sam reason I use plan9 and not Windows/Linux/OSX etc. its a backhanded compliment to the Go authors that I must not look at their work (yet). Me, OTOH, would like see Go go out of fashion ASAP; What's so special a C/C++ programmer can't do what she/he can do with Go? I find big wins in go, but I hope it will be still improved. The lack of header files is very nice, to mention only one big annoyance I see in C/C++. :) C/C++ don't have so fast (and ready) 'goroutines'. I hate writing state machines; let the per-goroutine-stack hold every state!
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Halo 4 On Nov 22, 2012, at 11:07 AM, lu...@proxima.alt.za wrote: What is so special a COBOL programmer can't do?
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On Mon, Nov 19, 2012 at 7:10 AM, Kurt H Maier kh...@intma.in wrote: On Mon, Nov 19, 2012 at 09:56:33AM -0500, Calvin Morrison wrote: On 19 November 2012 04:59, Steve Simon st...@quintile.net wrote: Isn't all C code valid C++? problem solved. As of c99, they have diverged. They weren't the same in 1998 either.
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On Thu Nov 22 08:50:13 EST 2012, 23h...@gmail.com wrote: Java was not in high school, but in 9th grade in a normal German school. i think you're trying to make a subtile distinction about the german educational system using american terms. if so, it would be much less confusing with untranslated terms. 9th grade is usually 1st year high school in the us. - erik
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VisitorFactoryBuilderFactorySingletonDecoratorFactory. On Thu, Nov 22, 2012 at 6:57 AM, Charles Forsyth charles.fors...@gmail.comwrote: I'm writing Java now, after a long gap, and it's ok. It has its share of annoying aspects, but it's not too bad. Java is a bit like a high-level assembler for the JVM, and there are too many packages, many with intricate interfaces and conventions. C# fixes every one of my complaints about the Java language, and generally seems more thoughtful. I simply ignore the philosophy as much as I can, although it's hard to escape the terminology (all those factories). On 22 November 2012 11:34, hiro 23h...@gmail.com wrote: java feel highly inconsistent and are full of stupid busywork and strange programming philosophies that you have to learn about, but teach you nothing.
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Personally, I think that all of this language posturing is geekier-than-thou nonsense. Calling C++ or Java a disease? Really? Suggesting that if you use one of those languages you're somehow mentally deficient? Really? Suggesting someone change jobs because they're asked to program in C++? Really? In the big scheme of things, absolutely none of this matters. Whether one programs in Java, C, Go, COBOL or 370 assembler doesn't really make any difference; one could die tomorrow, and would anyone care what language s/he programmed in? really? This world has bigger problems than that. Programming languages are tools; nothing more. Use whichever one fits the problem at hand. If you're the kind of person who geeks out on and enjoys playing around with new tools; the kind that appreciates the relative aesthetic quality of one versus the other, more power to you: but understand that trying to reformulate problems so that one can apply one's whizz-bang new shiny SuperHammer when the thing that comes out of parents' toolbox will do is just wasting time. I came across this recently, and it really resonated: http://www.lindsredding.com/2012/03/11/a-overdue-lesson-in-perspective/ - Dan C.
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i agree with your point. but i think that you the statments you point out are hyperbole. In the big scheme of things, absolutely none of this matters. Whether one programs in Java, C, Go, COBOL or 370 assembler doesn't really make any difference; one could die tomorrow, and would anyone care what language s/he programmed in? really? This world has bigger problems than that. this argument isn't a good one. this is a variation of the finish your plate there are starving kids in africa argument. the fact that there are starving kids in africa has no bearing on if the kid in the quote has had enough to eat. the fact that there are bigger problems in the world does not imply that we ourselves are in a position to do anything about them. heck, i see problems very close to home that i can't do much about. i can try to make arguments, but very often there is no direct influence that can be made. and being right is no comfort. - erik
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On Nov 22, 2012, at 9:54 AM, Balwinder S Dheeman bsd.sans...@anu.homelinux.net wrote: Me, OTOH, would like see Go go out of fashion ASAP; What's so special a C/C++ programmer can't do what she/he can do with Go? Is this opinion born out of experience with Go or due to a lack of experience? They are all Turing complete but if that was the only important criterion most prog. languages wouldn't exist.
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On Thursday 22 of November 2012 09:38:06 Dan Cross wrote: In the big scheme of things, absolutely none of this matters. Whether one programs in Java, C, Go, COBOL or 370 assembler doesn't really make any difference; one could die tomorrow, and would anyone care what language s/he programmed in? really? This world has bigger problems than that. Programming languages are tools; nothing more. (...) that assumes any programming language is (at best) a constant or linear factor in problem solving time and complexity. some circles hold opinion that more powerfull programming languages provide polynominal or exponential factor. aside of that, in various publications number of bugs is found to correlate with line counts or similar metrics, making a more concise language a net win. -- dexen deVries [[[↓][→]]] Reality is just a convenient measure of complexity. -- Alvy Ray Smith
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Halo 4 Whatever it is, I haven't needed it in the past 38 years, should I have? ++L
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On Thu, Nov 22, 2012 at 03:54:11PM +0100, Hugo Rivera wrote: Of course, it depends on the problem considered. But I think the big problems in the world have little to do with programming languages, particularly c++, which is the topic at hand. But you are wrong... There are numerous big and desastrous problems caused because of the inteconnections, the almost instantaneous and worldwide speculation, not to count instantaneous and worldwide bugs, all linked to programming. This is not butterfly's wings in Far East that can cause a earthquake in Occident, but a software bug in something used or relied upon everywhere... -- Thierry Laronde tlaronde +AT+ polynum +dot+ com http://www.kergis.com/ Key fingerprint = 0FF7 E906 FBAF FE95 FD89 250D 52B1 AE95 6006 F40C
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C++ and java feel highly inconsistent and are full of stupid busywork and strange programming philosophies that you have to learn about, Chances are Go would not be what it is, if it was anything at all, without the mistakes of C++ and Java (the latter are a mystery to me I am not even remotely interested in unravelling - but I'm lucky that way). For what that's worth. I enjoy the facility with which bugs are identified and often even avoided in Go, I'm not as keen on the Program development by progressive approximation development technique I seem to have fallen into :-) ++L
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On Thu Nov 22 10:48:35 EST 2012, tlaro...@polynum.com wrote: On Thu, Nov 22, 2012 at 03:54:11PM +0100, Hugo Rivera wrote: Of course, it depends on the problem considered. But I think the big problems in the world have little to do with programming languages, particularly c++, which is the topic at hand. But you are wrong... There are numerous big and desastrous problems caused because of the inteconnections, the almost instantaneous and worldwide speculation, not to count instantaneous and worldwide bugs, all linked to programming. This is not butterfly's wings in Far East that can cause a earthquake in Occident, but a software bug in something used or relied upon everywhere... putting aside that i don't believe that the big problems like war and hunger have anything to do with programming errors, i don't know which bugs you're talking about, but there is little chance that any of us choose the programming language these unknown systems were implemented in. so i see this as a perpetuation of the clean your plate argument. it's spurious. and even that aside, can you cite studies that show that the choice of programming language is the dominant term in determining the error rate of the resulting code? - erik
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Of course, it depends on the problem considered. But I think the big problems in the world have little to do with programming languages, particularly c++, which is the topic at hand. Well, in the unequal world of long-post-apartheid rural South Africa where I live, my hope is to teach unspoilt, but also uneducated kids programming using Go on a Plan 9 platform (the teaching, mostly). Doing the same in C++ or Java would demand much more effort on my part and much more powerful resources than I have at my disposal. Eventually, we may get over these obstacles, but by then I'm hoping the ability to solve problems using Go will already be an asset for the kids. Am I delusional? Maybe, but it's worth a try. ++L
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Well, in the unequal world of long-post-apartheid rural South Africa where I live, my hope is to teach unspoilt, but also uneducated kids programming using Go on a Plan 9 platform (the teaching, mostly). Doing the same in C++ or Java would demand much more effort on my part and much more powerful resources than I have at my disposal. Eventually, we may get over these obstacles, but by then I'm hoping the ability to solve problems using Go will already be an asset for the kids. Am I delusional? Maybe, but it's worth a try. that sounds reasonable to me! and good for you. - erik
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Great, you have my admiration, for what's worth. I truly mean that, no sarcasm or anything alike. It would be much better if I could offer my support instead, and maybe some day I could try to do something similar as you are. 2012/11/22 lu...@proxima.alt.za: Of course, it depends on the problem considered. But I think the big problems in the world have little to do with programming languages, particularly c++, which is the topic at hand. Well, in the unequal world of long-post-apartheid rural South Africa where I live, my hope is to teach unspoilt, but also uneducated kids programming using Go on a Plan 9 platform (the teaching, mostly). Doing the same in C++ or Java would demand much more effort on my part and much more powerful resources than I have at my disposal. Eventually, we may get over these obstacles, but by then I'm hoping the ability to solve problems using Go will already be an asset for the kids. Am I delusional? Maybe, but it's worth a try. ++L -- Hugo
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Exactly this, Dan. Thanks. On Thu, Nov 22, 2012 at 6:38 AM, Dan Cross cro...@gmail.com wrote: Personally, I think that all of this language posturing is geekier-than-thou nonsense. Calling C++ or Java a disease? Really? Suggesting that if you use one of those languages you're somehow mentally deficient? Really? Suggesting someone change jobs because they're asked to program in C++? Really? In the big scheme of things, absolutely none of this matters. Whether one programs in Java, C, Go, COBOL or 370 assembler doesn't really make any difference; one could die tomorrow, and would anyone care what language s/he programmed in? really? This world has bigger problems than that. Programming languages are tools; nothing more. Use whichever one fits the problem at hand. If you're the kind of person who geeks out on and enjoys playing around with new tools; the kind that appreciates the relative aesthetic quality of one versus the other, more power to you: but understand that trying to reformulate problems so that one can apply one's whizz-bang new shiny SuperHammer when the thing that comes out of parents' toolbox will do is just wasting time. I came across this recently, and it really resonated: http://www.lindsredding.com/2012/03/11/a-overdue-lesson-in-perspective/ - Dan C. -- Christopher Nielsen They who can give up essential liberty for temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety. --Benjamin Franklin The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots tyrants. --Thomas Jefferson
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and even that aside, can you cite studies that show that the choice of programming language is the dominant term in determining the error rate of the resulting code? Come on, Erik, are you suggesting that because there are no studies, the situation could not exist? It is only my opinion, but I miss the ability to design and build arbitrary adapters for the most common desktop platform(s) available with my limited skills, something I could do and did in the early 1980s. The growth in complexity in that platform has created a much higher entry bar that I certainly can't surmount any more. The associated growth in complexity in programming paradigms goes hand in hand with the more powerful, but less accessible platforms and the occurrence of bugs has almost certainly grown with both. For one of those bugs to creep into a decision making computer and cause real harm is not to be excluded. Sorry if the relevance isn't obvious, I'm always fearful of boring the reader :-) ++L
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On Thu, Nov 22, 2012 at 11:00:51AM -0500, erik quanstrom wrote: putting aside that i don't believe that the big problems like war and hunger have anything to do with programming errors, There have been already numerous hundreds of millions if not billions of money losses by financial teams due to software bugs. And since, more and more, programs make decisions based only on superficiality (no semantics), software acts as an amplifier. There is the example of big mirrors that are hand polished, not because a human is less error prone : on the contrary, but because a machine makes few errors but always the sames, in this case always in the same area, while a human will make far more errors but random ones, not localized leading to a more even surface. and even that aside, can you cite studies that show that the choice of programming language is the dominant term in determining the error rate of the resulting code? No, i have none since I'm already too busy programming so I have time to gain not to loose... But I will make an assumption: one will find that the most desastrous software bugs are from the softwares the most widely deployed and the more high level ones; that these are put in the wild because they are easy and need to catch an audience in the hurry; and that these have been wanted by people with the most high level view of programming that is the more farther, enforcing the use of the language du jour. So the results are biaised: the languages are not bad by themselves, but because some people use them not by need and not by understanding the needs, but because this is the mandatory language of the trend... -- Thierry Laronde tlaronde +AT+ polynum +dot+ com http://www.kergis.com/ Key fingerprint = 0FF7 E906 FBAF FE95 FD89 250D 52B1 AE95 6006 F40C
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it's an Xbox game. and yes, you need it ;) On Nov 22, 2012, at 4:37 PM, lu...@proxima.alt.za wrote: Halo 4 Whatever it is, I haven't needed it in the past 38 years, should I have? ++L
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Great, you have my admiration, for what's worth. I truly mean that, no sarcasm or anything alike. It would be much better if I could offer my support instead, and maybe some day I could try to do something similar as you are. Nice as it is to receive support, I must warn you that I have not yet embarked on much of a project, although I have the excuse that right now the kids are writing exams and I am busy with an active task that involves programming in Go and learning the ropes as I go. I do not want to give the impression that this is an accomplished thing, just something I am hopefully getting closer to achive. But thanks for the kind words, they do serve to encourage me. ++L
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it's an Xbox game. and yes, you need it ;) Xbox-360? Surely it runs IBM code? :-) ++L
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On Thu Nov 22 11:15:36 EST 2012, lu...@proxima.alt.za wrote: and even that aside, can you cite studies that show that the choice of programming language is the dominant term in determining the error rate of the resulting code? Come on, Erik, are you suggesting that because there are no studies, the situation could not exist? i don't know that they do or don't. but to me that was the clear assumption. my hunch is that there is more evidence that development practice and culture have a stronger bearing on the quality of the code than the implementation language. for example, the folks who wrote the space shuttle software (originally ibm) downplayed their language, but made a point of talking about how they developed code. their results were quite good. one software-caused failsafe in all the launches. so that's just an anecdote. i'd like to know more about the subject. - erik
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9th grade is usually 1st year high school in the us. DeutschlandUSA - - Hochschule college Gymnasium high school Sporthalle gymnasium
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On Nov 22, 2012, at 8:06 AM, lu...@proxima.alt.za wrote: Of course, it depends on the problem considered. But I think the big problems in the world have little to do with programming languages, particularly c++, which is the topic at hand. Well, in the unequal world of long-post-apartheid rural South Africa where I live, my hope is to teach unspoilt, but also uneducated kids programming using Go on a Plan 9 platform (the teaching, mostly). Doing the same in C++ or Java would demand much more effort on my part and much more powerful resources than I have at my disposal. Eventually, we may get over these obstacles, but by then I'm hoping the ability to solve problems using Go will already be an asset for the kids. Linux + python seems to be succeeding in the raspberryPi world. Then there are things like MIT Scratch which is even easier for kids. In the end what matters is developing thinking/problem solving skills. Simpler languages allow to focus on problem solving. Also, many uneducated or less educated kids have problems with more basic skills of math etc. Hopefully inexpensive tablets can be used to develop proficiency in such subjects (very few good teachers in the kind of places you mention). A friend is developing such web/tablet based lessons for similar kids in India (India has as big a problem of poor ed. as the whole of Africa).
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On Nov 22, 2012 9:50 AM, erik quanstrom quans...@quanstro.net wrote: i agree with your point. but i think that you the statments you point out are hyperbole. That is fair to an extent. In the big scheme of things, absolutely none of this matters. Whether one programs in Java, C, Go, COBOL or 370 assembler doesn't really make any difference; one could die tomorrow, and would anyone care what language s/he programmed in? really? This world has bigger problems than that. this argument isn't a good one. this is a variation of the finish your plate there are starving kids in africa argument. the fact that there are starving kids in africa has no bearing on if the kid in the quote has had enough to eat. the fact that there are bigger problems in the world does not imply that we ourselves are in a position to do anything about them. heck, i see problems very close to home that i can't do much about. i can try to make arguments, but very often there is no direct influence that can be made. and being right is no comfort. Well, my point was Not, there are kids starving in X, so instead of complaining about language Y, go there and dig a well... but rather to try and put these things in perspective. The point was really aimed at those who seem emotionally consumed by trivial things like programming languages and command shells: there are probably more important things in their own lives that they could devote that same energy towards to better effect. To put it another way, I consider emotional arguments about programming languages so unimportant that they pale in comparison to encouraging my daughter to eat a healthy breakfast; starving kids in other countries didn't even enter my mind. - Dan C.
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On Nov 22, 2012 9:56 AM, dexen deVries dexen.devr...@gmail.com wrote: On Thursday 22 of November 2012 09:38:06 Dan Cross wrote: In the big scheme of things, absolutely none of this matters. Whether one programs in Java, C, Go, COBOL or 370 assembler doesn't really make any difference; one could die tomorrow, and would anyone care what language s/he programmed in? really? This world has bigger problems than that. Programming languages are tools; nothing more. (...) that assumes any programming language is (at best) a constant or linear factor in problem solving time and complexity. some circles hold opinion that more powerfull programming languages provide polynominal or exponential factor. I'm not sure what that has to do with programming languages being tools: I can drive a nail by banging on it with a screwdriver or my fist, but it's much more convenient to use a hammer. Which tool I choose really depends on the problem I'm trying to solve. In other words, what it assumes is that different languages are better suited to different tasks. aside of that, in various publications number of bugs is found to correlate with line counts or similar metrics, making a more concise language a net win. Ha! Ever programmed in APL? - Dan C.
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On Thu, Nov 22, 2012 at 09:38:06AM -0500, Dan Cross wrote: Personally, I think that all of this language posturing is geekier-than-thou nonsense. And the rest of this email is wiser-than-thou bullshit. Programming languages ARE tools. If you enjoy using shitty tools to earn your living, when superior tools are available, you ARE mentally deficient. If someone came to me and asked me to rebuild an engine with a hammer and a screwdriver, I would change jobs. With sufficient effort, I'm sure it's possible, but my work would not be enjoyable. It's not all about blogging, Dan.
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On Thu, Nov 22, 2012 at 05:18:03PM +, Charles Forsyth wrote: Yes, that would be silly. You need only the screwdriver, provided it's sonic, but I suppose that just emphasises your point about tools. You did not get the big picture: the screwdriver is for the engine; the hammer is to deal with people coming arguing about why you use a screwdriver... On 22 November 2012 17:10, Kurt H Maier kh...@intma.in wrote: If someone came to me and asked me to rebuild an engine with a hammer and a screwdriver, -- Thierry Laronde tlaronde +AT+ polynum +dot+ com http://www.kergis.com/ Key fingerprint = 0FF7 E906 FBAF FE95 FD89 250D 52B1 AE95 6006 F40C
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On Thu, 22 Nov 2012 18:22:33 +0100 tlaro...@polynum.com wrote: On Thu, Nov 22, 2012 at 05:18:03PM +, Charles Forsyth wrote: Yes, that would be silly. You need only the screwdriver, provided it's soni c, but I suppose that just emphasises your point about tools. You did not get the big picture: the screwdriver is for the engine; the hammer is to deal with people coming arguing about why you use a screwdriver... A big enough screwdriver can be used to deal with people. You guys are so spoiled!
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so that's just an anecdote. i'd like to know more about the subject. It's not going to be a popular subject, I don't think your curiosity will be rewarded. I do agree that culture is very important. I also think that I was extremely lucky to learn computing at the time when there were many diverse architectures and assembler programming was how you gat the most from the limited resources available. I wish I could teach my target audience the same way, despite the perception that such knowledge is no longer relevant. ++L
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A friend is developing such web/tablet based lessons for similar kids in India (India has as big a problem of poor ed. as the whole of Africa). The BBC reports exceptional success by some NGOs introducing tablets in rural (central) Africa amongst children. But the price is wrong. Scrappy, perfectly adequate, if antiquated, computer equipment discarded in the West and even locally, by urban residents and organisations, on the other hand, is much more affordable. Electricity is an issue, but the cost of PV panels and inverters is dropping. Please continue with suggestions, I have a few weeks to get started and there may well be many ideas I have not considered (MIT Scratch is one such idea Charles already mentioned) and may make all the difference. Maybe in private mail? Also, I have never seen any educational games for the PS2 (I bought one a while back as an experiment). I would have thought it would be something worthwhile, maybe I'm too far from the mainstream to have come across such games? ++L
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On Thu, Nov 22, 2012 at 5:32 PM, Richard Miller 9f...@hamnavoe.com wrote: 9th grade is usually 1st year high school in the us. DeutschlandUSA - - Hochschule college Gymnasium high school Sporthalle gymnasium It's much more complex than that, so I didn't even attempt to explain. We can talk about this in Greek though if you like...
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Ha! Ever programmed in APL? Don't knock it, to learn APL I had to shift paradigm and it was a very important lesson in my programming education. ++L
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and even that aside, can you cite studies that show that the choice of programming language is the dominant term in determining the error rate of the resulting code? Could it help? http://archive.adaic.com/intro/ada-vs-c/cada_art.html Pavel
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dan, I don't care about your children. You may sing a different tune if/when Dan's daughter becomes the President of the USA. ++L
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Nor should you. What she eats is my problem not yours, and it's an incredibly minor problem. Like, only a little more important than worrying about C++ and Java. On Nov 22, 2012 12:33 PM, hiro 23h...@gmail.com wrote: dan, I don't care about your children.
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Thanks for making my point for me. On Nov 22, 2012 12:13 PM, Kurt H Maier kh...@intma.in wrote: On Thu, Nov 22, 2012 at 09:38:06AM -0500, Dan Cross wrote: Personally, I think that all of this language posturing is geekier-than-thou nonsense. And the rest of this email is wiser-than-thou bullshit. Programming languages ARE tools. If you enjoy using shitty tools to earn your living, when superior tools are available, you ARE mentally deficient. If someone came to me and asked me to rebuild an engine with a hammer and a screwdriver, I would change jobs. With sufficient effort, I'm sure it's possible, but my work would not be enjoyable. It's not all about blogging, Dan.
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a computer is a multiple purpose device, not an education. Prove it. ++L
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On Nov 22, 2012 12:43 PM, lu...@proxima.alt.za wrote: Ha! Ever programmed in APL? Don't knock it, to learn APL I had to shift paradigm and it was a very important lesson in my programming education. No doubt. As a learning exercise, such things are great. But I don't know that the brand of brevity engendered by APL really leads to fewer defects. :-) - Dan C.
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PS2 development is generally too expensive for the cost model of education games, sadly. On Thu, Nov 22, 2012 at 9:39 AM, lu...@proxima.alt.za wrote: A friend is developing such web/tablet based lessons for similar kids in India (India has as big a problem of poor ed. as the whole of Africa). The BBC reports exceptional success by some NGOs introducing tablets in rural (central) Africa amongst children. But the price is wrong. Scrappy, perfectly adequate, if antiquated, computer equipment discarded in the West and even locally, by urban residents and organisations, on the other hand, is much more affordable. Electricity is an issue, but the cost of PV panels and inverters is dropping. Please continue with suggestions, I have a few weeks to get started and there may well be many ideas I have not considered (MIT Scratch is one such idea Charles already mentioned) and may make all the difference. Maybe in private mail? Also, I have never seen any educational games for the PS2 (I bought one a while back as an experiment). I would have thought it would be something worthwhile, maybe I'm too far from the mainstream to have come across such games? ++L
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In the big scheme of things, absolutely none of this matters. Whether one programs in Java, C, Go, COBOL or 370 assembler doesn't really make any difference; one could die tomorrow, and would anyone care what language s/he programmed in? really? This world has bigger problems than that. My experience with APL suggested otherwise. Assembler programming teaches you what computers can and cannot do and a language like APL teaches you what concepts your mind is able to embrace. COBOL shows you the value of code discipline and fortran the benefits of shortcutting functionality you don't really need in a certain sphere of programming. No one language gives you everything and many programmers only get to see and solve a fraction of the possible problem space. I think it is important for programmers to at least know that their knowledge base is incomplete and, hopefully, come closer to rather than further away from a broader knowledge by attempting to use more rather than fewer tools. That some tools may lead to bad habits, that could be termed a judgement call, or an occupational hazard. ++L
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No doubt. As a learning exercise, such things are great. But I don't know that the brand of brevity engendered by APL really leads to fewer defects. No, although you don't have to look as far to find the errors :-) ++L
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On Thu, Nov 22, 2012 at 05:40:25PM +, Pavel Klinkovsky wrote: and even that aside, can you cite studies that show that the choice of programming language is the dominant term in determining the error rate of the resulting code? Could it help? http://archive.adaic.com/intro/ada-vs-c/cada_art.html The study is interesting and the conclusion so too, since there is a way to use a language, partly due to the language, partly due to the know-how and habits of the language (Ada programmers made more comments about what the code was supposed to do, and there was a better locality of bugs indicating a better partitionning). FWIW, litterate programming (cweb) has improved the quality of my C code, precisely because of comments (but learning not to make books, but to get to the point), and subdivision. Fixing or improving is also easier then. But it took me some time to find my style or to understand better how to use it, and the first uses were disastrous (a lengthy discussion beating around the bush and not helping in anyway to describe the problem---not to speak about smart reflexions that were, on re-reading, mathematical nonsense---, followed by a lengthy code that was not directly related to the discussion since I had spent to much time discussing and needed to have the job done...). It was no miracle per se, but a tool helping to improve if used correctly. The situation is complexe. But there are languages that give you the power but enforcing some strict rules (I simply hate the implicit features or automatic polymorphic features of languages; source code where non visible chars have syntactic meaning; I prefer strong type checking enforcements etc.) And there are habits that are taught and learned, and with the very same language, there may be schools, correct and bad ones... That's why, BTW, the trend to think that a programmer or a developer should be dropped when he gets old, is dropping the know-how that has probably not a small effect on the quality of code, independantly from the language by itself. -- Thierry Laronde tlaronde +AT+ polynum +dot+ com http://www.kergis.com/ Key fingerprint = 0FF7 E906 FBAF FE95 FD89 250D 52B1 AE95 6006 F40C
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I remembering finding Iverson's book A Programming Language quite interesting. I don't remember the book any more, but I did read the library copy in its entirety, maybe even more than once and was thrilled when the university almost accidentally got an APL interpreter from Univac for their 1106. It got me into real trouble with the cycle counters, it was expensive to run and interactive time was even more expensive. Today it is just a topic for nostalgic conversation, but it really made a difference to me, it was as if a switch had been thrown in my head. ++L
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Books do still get printed btw. I'm still looking for a copy of Hollindale and Toothill's Digital Computers (from memory, of course), which I remember being another of the formative books I was privileged to read. ++L
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I remembering finding Iverson's book A Programming Language quite interesting. ... Today it is just a topic for nostalgic conversation, What Iverson did next: http://9fans.net/archive/2009/07/265
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On Thu, Nov 22, 2012 at 07:47:07PM +0200, lu...@proxima.alt.za wrote: a computer is a multiple purpose device, not an education. Prove it. Have you even contacted IAEP or one of the dozens of OLPC working groups in your area?
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On Thu, Nov 22, 2012 at 12:45:51PM -0500, Dan Cross wrote: Thanks for making my point for me. Someone had to. It sure wasn't you.
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On Thu, 22 Nov 2012, Richard Miller wrote: 9th grade is usually 1st year high school in the us. DeutschlandUSA - - Hochschule college Gymnasium high school Sporthalle gymnasium I thought that Uni was equal to college here in the states. -- Veety
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Only if she give me free healthcare and hookers. -- Veety
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On Nov 22, 2012, at 10:02 AM, Charles Forsyth wrote: I remembering finding Iverson's book A Programming Language quite interesting. I highly recommended Iverson's Turing Award lecture Notation as a tool of thought. http://www.jsoftware.com/papers/tot.htm http://awards.acm.org/images/awards/140/articles/9147499.pdf
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On Nov 22, 2012, at 10:12 AM, lu...@proxima.alt.za wrote: I remembering finding Iverson's book A Programming Language quite interesting. I don't remember the book any more, but I did read the library copy in its entirety, maybe even more than once and was thrilled when the university almost accidentally got an APL interpreter from Univac for their 1106. It got me into real trouble with the cycle counters, it was expensive to run and interactive time was even more expensive. At school I had a part time job with a cancer epidemiology group (associated with the same school). I used up so much of their funny money at the school computer center (all IBM computers with expensive compute time) by using APL, I had to drop back to using PL/I for them! The thing is, you make far fewer mistakes in APL but they can cause a lot more damage! I wonder if the financial quants made such mistakes in 2008 :-) Today it is just a topic for nostalgic conversation, but it really made a difference to me, it was as if a switch had been thrown in my head. Iverson's papers are still very useful when programming in APL2 or languages like k, j or q.
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To put it another way, I consider emotional arguments about programming languages so unimportant that they pale in comparison to encouraging my daughter to eat a healthy breakfast; starving kids in other countries didn't even enter my mind. emotional areguments are poor arguments, regardless of the subject. i'm not sure though that i follow that x is more important than y implies that i should not be bothered about potentially important topics within y. - erik
[9fans] C++
Ay, Curamba! This discussion is exactly why we need Boyd. But, let the record show, C++ has been scientifically shown to be an unbelievably crap and monstrously complex language, even though I earn my daily bread by using it. I was a contemporary of Dr Stroustrup when he was spending his time dragging the Cambridge mainframe to its knees using the Simula compiler - the kindest description I ever heard from friends in the computer lab was stubborn- and occasionally, ok frequently, or indeed always, am tempted to view C++ as his revenge on the world for pointing out that he doesn't have a clue how to program efficiently.
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On Thu, Nov 22, 2012 at 07:47:07PM +0200, lu...@proxima.alt.za wrote: a computer is a multiple purpose device, not an education. Prove it. Have you even contacted IAEP or one of the dozens of OLPC working groups in your area? Sounds more like an accusation than a response. What I choose to do with a general-purpose tool (your argument) is to use it for education. Show me how your argument invalidates my objectives. As for your issue with suppliers of computing resources, there are political dynamics in place around me that render the question moot. Plus, I don't want to get involved in conventional teaching (C++, Java, Windows, etc.) and that closes quite a few doors. ++L
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On Fri, Nov 23, 2012 at 05:31:52AM +0200, lu...@proxima.alt.za wrote: On Thu, Nov 22, 2012 at 07:47:07PM +0200, lu...@proxima.alt.za wrote: a computer is a multiple purpose device, not an education. Prove it. Have you even contacted IAEP or one of the dozens of OLPC working groups in your area? Sounds more like an accusation than a response. What I choose to do with a general-purpose tool (your argument) is to use it for education. Show me how your argument invalidates my objectives. There was a typo in my message. The word even should have read ever. I love your instant defensive whining, however, as well as your misattribution of the other email. So far, you're the only proven general-purpose tool here. As for your issue with suppliers of computing resources, there are political dynamics in place around me that render the question moot. Plus, I don't want to get involved in conventional teaching (C++, Java, Windows, etc.) and that closes quite a few doors. This is frankly bizarre, since IAEP and OLPC aren't in the business of peddling C++, Java, or Windows. I apologize for misinterpreting your message as anything but another attempt to climb to some rhetorical moral high ground; I thought you were interested in using computers to further education in underserved areas. I withdraw my interest, and apologize for attempting to point out relevant efforts in the areas you claim to espouse. My bad. Carry on.
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How do you studiously not do something? Doesn't the imply working hard at something? Indeed, everything I did read about Go made it look very attractive so I am ignoring it as I know myself. If I read more I will start to get annoyed that I am wasting my time learning C++ when Go is a much better solution. Its the sam reason I use plan9 and not Windows/Linux/OSX etc. its a backhanded compliment to the Go authors that I must not look at their work (yet). -Steve
