Re: [AFMUG] Advice on spending
Microwave PTP you can landmark or manually walk azimuth quick enough and pull in the links so I don't think it's necessary for that. However with PTMP deployments going to such small slices (aka 30 degree horns) I think your azimuth planning needs to be a lot tighter and well planned. 120 degree sectors you could meh it close enough, but 12x 30 horns you need to map it well to make sure you're hooking up people to the places you think you should be. Also for CBRS since it's quite fussy. Someone on WISP Talk just posted a thing from someone using them with horns in the last couple days. Also check attachment methods. Some of the bungee cord setups are annoying. On Wed, Feb 19, 2020 at 11:52 AM Steve Jones wrote: > > I got approval from the boss to order a smart aligner. Ive been looking at > this for a while, particularly with the need for accuracy in CBRS. Not > looking to use it at customer sites, just backhauls and access points. > We have historically never been verifiably accurate on azimuths, probably > rolled out pretty bad too. We have had issues with contractors not installing > sites to spec, and having to go back up to turn radios/adjust tilt, etc. > > This will be handy for this year, we are dropping in at least 40 new access > points and 3 or 5 new licensed links in the next few months. but then the > tool will sit > > Boss said the worst thing to me, "get it if you think its necessary". If it > were a $1k tool it wouldnt be a question bet we are looking at almost 7k on > the kit. It meets my accuracy needs, but I almost wonder if the convenience > outweighs the necessary. ant his is over half the cost of a licensed link. > Knowing my numbers are right in propagation tools holds a lot of value. > saving maybe an hour getting a tight link aligned here and there offsets some > cost. > You old timers, is this a justifiable expenditure based on your experience? > -- > AF mailing list > AF@af.afmug.com > http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com -- AF mailing list AF@af.afmug.com http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
Re: [AFMUG] Advice on spending
We have one. Very happy we purchased it. Going to be great with CBRS eNodeB alignments and registration. We use on dish alignments and it works really well. Adam From: AF [mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com] On Behalf Of Steve Jones Sent: Wednesday, February 19, 2020 8:50 AM To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group Subject: [AFMUG] Advice on spending I got approval from the boss to order a smart aligner. Ive been looking at this for a while, particularly with the need for accuracy in CBRS. Not looking to use it at customer sites, just backhauls and access points. We have historically never been verifiably accurate on azimuths, probably rolled out pretty bad too. We have had issues with contractors not installing sites to spec, and having to go back up to turn radios/adjust tilt, etc. This will be handy for this year, we are dropping in at least 40 new access points and 3 or 5 new licensed links in the next few months. but then the tool will sit Boss said the worst thing to me, "get it if you think its necessary". If it were a $1k tool it wouldnt be a question bet we are looking at almost 7k on the kit. It meets my accuracy needs, but I almost wonder if the convenience outweighs the necessary. ant his is over half the cost of a licensed link. Knowing my numbers are right in propagation tools holds a lot of value. saving maybe an hour getting a tight link aligned here and there offsets some cost. You old timers, is this a justifiable expenditure based on your experience? -- AF mailing list AF@af.afmug.com http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
Re: [AFMUG] Advice on spending
We looked at a bunch of different options and decided to build a simple device using a metal framing square and a rifle scope. It works really well. Basically we pick a landmark 1-2 miles out in Google Earth before climbing the tower. Then when we are on the tower, we clamp the square/scope to the backhaul dish and use the scope to aim the dish. With a couple of repetitions, the guys have gotten good enough to aim the first side, leave that tower site, and build the second site and aim. Signal quality is good enough that we rarely have to revisit the first tower, only on links of 15 miles or more or if we can’t see the remote tower from the tower we are on even with the rifle scope (some of them are tough to pick out due to what is behind them). This works well enough, I can’t imagine spending more on something else. For backhaul dishes, the scope does the elevation and azimuth that we need. For sector antennas, we use a simple plastic square to aim at a landmark. Way easier than carrying a tool up the tower and very accurate. For tilt, we use the iHandy level built into the phone. It is surprisingly accurate. Regards, David Coudron From: AF On Behalf Of Steve Jones Sent: Wednesday, February 19, 2020 11:27 AM To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Advice on spending Specifications: Azimuth accuracy: 0.5º Tilt and roll accuracy: 0.1º Position accuracy: 60 cm with SBAS The real time roll is something that would be nice, with the structures we mount to and the mounts we use, getting the mast completely plumb isnt always an option, if i can have real time tilt and roll I can tweak the mast nuts and the tilt nuts to get it true. I tried with digital levels, but theyre finicky On Wed, Feb 19, 2020 at 11:21 AM Adam Moffett mailto:dmmoff...@gmail.com>> wrote: So yeah like he said you can measure the elevation angle pretty well with a cheap tool. You align the first dish's azimuth to a landmark and dead reckoning. You peak the second dish, then go back to peak the first one. If the tool lets you nail the azimuth on the first dish without re-climbing the tower then it's worth every penny. Does it? Just wondering. If you use backhauls with the BNC voltage output and get the BNC to banana plug adapter then you get realtime feedback to peak the signal with. I always thought the scope thing was a good idea, but never did get to use one. On 2/19/2020 12:08 PM, Darin Steffl wrote: We have one and it's very nice. We only use it to aim sectors and horns. For backhaul dishes, there no need to use it in my opinion since we use landmarks to get the aiming started. With sectors, there's no way to aim it like a dish so this tool is very helpful. It should be under $4600 as that's what we paid for it new. On Wed, Feb 19, 2020, 10:58 AM mailto:ch...@wbmfg.com>> wrote: I had a project, still have a project to build one. Not trivial because the baseline between the two GPS receivers is very short. Maybe I will finish it someday. If you buy one, let me “borrow it for a few days”... Elevation is very simple. You can buy a cheap electronic level from any hardware store to nail the elevation. Then all you gotta do is sweep and peak. I have not talked to anyone that has used one of these things. If you can find a landmark along the path and use a scope for azimuth you will be dead on for a lot less money. From: Steve Jones Sent: Wednesday, February 19, 2020 9:50 AM To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group Subject: [AFMUG] Advice on spending I got approval from the boss to order a smart aligner. Ive been looking at this for a while, particularly with the need for accuracy in CBRS. Not looking to use it at customer sites, just backhauls and access points. We have historically never been verifiably accurate on azimuths, probably rolled out pretty bad too. We have had issues with contractors not installing sites to spec, and having to go back up to turn radios/adjust tilt, etc. This will be handy for this year, we are dropping in at least 40 new access points and 3 or 5 new licensed links in the next few months. but then the tool will sit Boss said the worst thing to me, "get it if you think its necessary". If it were a $1k tool it wouldnt be a question bet we are looking at almost 7k on the kit. It meets my accuracy needs, but I almost wonder if the convenience outweighs the necessary. ant his is over half the cost of a licensed link. Knowing my numbers are right in propagation tools holds a lot of value. saving maybe an hour getting a tight link aligned here and there offsets some cost. You old timers, is this a justifiable expenditure based on your experience? -- AF mailing list AF@af.afmug.com<mailto:AF@af.afmug.com> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com -- AF mailing list AF@af.afmug.com<mailto:AF@af.afmug.com> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_a
Re: [AFMUG] Advice on spending
Specifications: Azimuth accuracy: 0.5º Tilt and roll accuracy: 0.1º Position accuracy: 60 cm with SBAS The real time roll is something that would be nice, with the structures we mount to and the mounts we use, getting the mast completely plumb isnt always an option, if i can have real time tilt and roll I can tweak the mast nuts and the tilt nuts to get it true. I tried with digital levels, but theyre finicky On Wed, Feb 19, 2020 at 11:21 AM Adam Moffett wrote: > So yeah like he said you can measure the elevation angle pretty well with > a cheap tool. You align the first dish's azimuth to a landmark and dead > reckoning. You peak the second dish, then go back to peak the first one. > > If the tool lets you nail the azimuth on the first dish without > re-climbing the tower then it's worth every penny. Does it? Just > wondering. > > If you use backhauls with the BNC voltage output and get the BNC to banana > plug adapter then you get realtime feedback to peak the signal with. I > always thought the scope thing was a good idea, but never did get to use > one. > > > > On 2/19/2020 12:08 PM, Darin Steffl wrote: > > We have one and it's very nice. We only use it to aim sectors and horns. > For backhaul dishes, there no need to use it in my opinion since we use > landmarks to get the aiming started. With sectors, there's no way to aim it > like a dish so this tool is very helpful. > > It should be under $4600 as that's what we paid for it new. > > On Wed, Feb 19, 2020, 10:58 AM wrote: > >> I had a project, still have a project to build one. >> Not trivial because the baseline between the two GPS receivers is very >> short. >> Maybe I will finish it someday. >> >> If you buy one, let me “borrow it for a few days”... >> >> >> Elevation is very simple. You can buy a cheap electronic level from any >> hardware store to nail the elevation. >> Then all you gotta do is sweep and peak. >> >> I have not talked to anyone that has used one of these things. >> If you can find a landmark along the path and use a scope for azimuth you >> will be dead on for a lot less money. >> >> *From:* Steve Jones >> *Sent:* Wednesday, February 19, 2020 9:50 AM >> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group >> *Subject:* [AFMUG] Advice on spending >> >> I got approval from the boss to order a smart aligner. Ive been looking >> at this for a while, particularly with the need for accuracy in CBRS. Not >> looking to use it at customer sites, just backhauls and access points. >> We have historically never been verifiably accurate on azimuths, probably >> rolled out pretty bad too. We have had issues with contractors not >> installing sites to spec, and having to go back up to turn radios/adjust >> tilt, etc. >> >> This will be handy for this year, we are dropping in at least 40 new >> access points and 3 or 5 new licensed links in the next few months. but >> then the tool will sit >> >> Boss said the worst thing to me, "get it if you think its necessary". If >> it were a $1k tool it wouldnt be a question bet we are looking at almost 7k >> on the kit. It meets my accuracy needs, but I almost wonder if the >> convenience outweighs the necessary. ant his is over half the cost of a >> licensed link. >> Knowing my numbers are right in propagation tools holds a lot of value. >> saving maybe an hour getting a tight link aligned here and there offsets >> some cost. >> You old timers, is this a justifiable expenditure based on your >> experience? >> >> -- >> -- >> AF mailing list >> AF@af.afmug.com >> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com >> -- >> AF mailing list >> AF@af.afmug.com >> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com >> > > -- > AF mailing list > AF@af.afmug.com > http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com > -- AF mailing list AF@af.afmug.com http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
Re: [AFMUG] Advice on spending
For sectors we like to assemble the standoffs on the ground and pre-mount the antennas. On the ground we can take the time to measure precisely and make sure the antennas are at the correct angles relative to each other. Then tell the tower guy "mount this plumb and turn the assembly until this sector is facing 0 degrees North." If he's off a smidgen that's ok because the sectors are all off by the same amount and we still get full coverage. On 2/19/2020 12:18 PM, Ken Hohhof wrote: I could see it for APs, especially if you are going to these narrow beam horns. For backhaul links, especially licensed links, I would just use a multimeter on the BNC connector if the radio has one, or the alignment tool in the GUI otherwise. Maybe it would make sense to prealign the dishes before final tweaking for best signal, but Chuck’s rifle scope method is probably better for that. That’s the only one I would trust enough not to tweak the alignment once the radios are linked up. But back to sectors, I will admit I probably have some that are supposed to be spaced every 60 or 90 degrees but in actuality are off by 2-5 degrees. Not really a huge deal, but probably suboptimum. *From:* AF *On Behalf Of *ch...@wbmfg.com *Sent:* Wednesday, February 19, 2020 10:58 AM *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Advice on spending I had a project, still have a project to build one. Not trivial because the baseline between the two GPS receivers is very short. Maybe I will finish it someday. If you buy one, let me “borrow it for a few days”... Elevation is very simple. You can buy a cheap electronic level from any hardware store to nail the elevation. Then all you gotta do is sweep and peak. I have not talked to anyone that has used one of these things. If you can find a landmark along the path and use a scope for azimuth you will be dead on for a lot less money. *From:*Steve Jones *Sent:*Wednesday, February 19, 2020 9:50 AM *To:*AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group *Subject:*[AFMUG] Advice on spending I got approval from the boss to order a smart aligner. Ive been looking at this for a while, particularly with the need for accuracy in CBRS. Not looking to use it at customer sites, just backhauls and access points. We have historically never been verifiably accurate on azimuths, probably rolled out pretty bad too. We have had issues with contractors not installing sites to spec, and having to go back up to turn radios/adjust tilt, etc. This will be handy for this year, we are dropping in at least 40 new access points and 3 or 5 new licensed links in the next few months. but then the tool will sit Boss said the worst thing to me, "get it if you think its necessary". If it were a $1k tool it wouldnt be a question bet we are looking at almost 7k on the kit. It meets my accuracy needs, but I almost wonder if the convenience outweighs the necessary. ant his is over half the cost of a licensed link. Knowing my numbers are right in propagation tools holds a lot of value. saving maybe an hour getting a tight link aligned here and there offsets some cost. You old timers, is this a justifiable expenditure based on your experience? -- AF mailing list AF@af.afmug.com <mailto:AF@af.afmug.com> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com -- AF mailing list AF@af.afmug.com http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
Re: [AFMUG] Advice on spending
We are getting some accessories. I have an old TruPulse that I really like, but its my personal one and Im not sure its calibration is good. I like that it will do the maths for me to get accurate AGL even if I have to put it at an angle because of structures in the way, so that drives the cost up too. have you had any battery issues with the smartaligner? On Wed, Feb 19, 2020 at 11:09 AM Darin Steffl wrote: > We have one and it's very nice. We only use it to aim sectors and horns. > For backhaul dishes, there no need to use it in my opinion since we use > landmarks to get the aiming started. With sectors, there's no way to aim it > like a dish so this tool is very helpful. > > It should be under $4600 as that's what we paid for it new. > > On Wed, Feb 19, 2020, 10:58 AM wrote: > >> I had a project, still have a project to build one. >> Not trivial because the baseline between the two GPS receivers is very >> short. >> Maybe I will finish it someday. >> >> If you buy one, let me “borrow it for a few days”... >> >> >> Elevation is very simple. You can buy a cheap electronic level from any >> hardware store to nail the elevation. >> Then all you gotta do is sweep and peak. >> >> I have not talked to anyone that has used one of these things. >> If you can find a landmark along the path and use a scope for azimuth you >> will be dead on for a lot less money. >> >> *From:* Steve Jones >> *Sent:* Wednesday, February 19, 2020 9:50 AM >> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group >> *Subject:* [AFMUG] Advice on spending >> >> I got approval from the boss to order a smart aligner. Ive been looking >> at this for a while, particularly with the need for accuracy in CBRS. Not >> looking to use it at customer sites, just backhauls and access points. >> We have historically never been verifiably accurate on azimuths, probably >> rolled out pretty bad too. We have had issues with contractors not >> installing sites to spec, and having to go back up to turn radios/adjust >> tilt, etc. >> >> This will be handy for this year, we are dropping in at least 40 new >> access points and 3 or 5 new licensed links in the next few months. but >> then the tool will sit >> >> Boss said the worst thing to me, "get it if you think its necessary". If >> it were a $1k tool it wouldnt be a question bet we are looking at almost 7k >> on the kit. It meets my accuracy needs, but I almost wonder if the >> convenience outweighs the necessary. ant his is over half the cost of a >> licensed link. >> Knowing my numbers are right in propagation tools holds a lot of value. >> saving maybe an hour getting a tight link aligned here and there offsets >> some cost. >> You old timers, is this a justifiable expenditure based on your >> experience? >> >> -- >> -- >> AF mailing list >> AF@af.afmug.com >> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com >> >> -- >> AF mailing list >> AF@af.afmug.com >> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com >> > -- > AF mailing list > AF@af.afmug.com > http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com > -- AF mailing list AF@af.afmug.com http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
Re: [AFMUG] Advice on spending
I could see it for APs, especially if you are going to these narrow beam horns. For backhaul links, especially licensed links, I would just use a multimeter on the BNC connector if the radio has one, or the alignment tool in the GUI otherwise. Maybe it would make sense to prealign the dishes before final tweaking for best signal, but Chuck’s rifle scope method is probably better for that. That’s the only one I would trust enough not to tweak the alignment once the radios are linked up. But back to sectors, I will admit I probably have some that are supposed to be spaced every 60 or 90 degrees but in actuality are off by 2-5 degrees. Not really a huge deal, but probably suboptimum. From: AF On Behalf Of ch...@wbmfg.com Sent: Wednesday, February 19, 2020 10:58 AM To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Advice on spending I had a project, still have a project to build one. Not trivial because the baseline between the two GPS receivers is very short. Maybe I will finish it someday. If you buy one, let me “borrow it for a few days”... Elevation is very simple. You can buy a cheap electronic level from any hardware store to nail the elevation. Then all you gotta do is sweep and peak. I have not talked to anyone that has used one of these things. If you can find a landmark along the path and use a scope for azimuth you will be dead on for a lot less money. From: Steve Jones Sent: Wednesday, February 19, 2020 9:50 AM To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group Subject: [AFMUG] Advice on spending I got approval from the boss to order a smart aligner. Ive been looking at this for a while, particularly with the need for accuracy in CBRS. Not looking to use it at customer sites, just backhauls and access points. We have historically never been verifiably accurate on azimuths, probably rolled out pretty bad too. We have had issues with contractors not installing sites to spec, and having to go back up to turn radios/adjust tilt, etc. This will be handy for this year, we are dropping in at least 40 new access points and 3 or 5 new licensed links in the next few months. but then the tool will sit Boss said the worst thing to me, "get it if you think its necessary". If it were a $1k tool it wouldnt be a question bet we are looking at almost 7k on the kit. It meets my accuracy needs, but I almost wonder if the convenience outweighs the necessary. ant his is over half the cost of a licensed link. Knowing my numbers are right in propagation tools holds a lot of value. saving maybe an hour getting a tight link aligned here and there offsets some cost. You old timers, is this a justifiable expenditure based on your experience? _ -- AF mailing list AF@af.afmug.com <mailto:AF@af.afmug.com> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com -- AF mailing list AF@af.afmug.com http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
Re: [AFMUG] Advice on spending
We have one and it's very nice. We only use it to aim sectors and horns. For backhaul dishes, there no need to use it in my opinion since we use landmarks to get the aiming started. With sectors, there's no way to aim it like a dish so this tool is very helpful. It should be under $4600 as that's what we paid for it new. On Wed, Feb 19, 2020, 10:58 AM wrote: > I had a project, still have a project to build one. > Not trivial because the baseline between the two GPS receivers is very > short. > Maybe I will finish it someday. > > If you buy one, let me “borrow it for a few days”... > > > Elevation is very simple. You can buy a cheap electronic level from any > hardware store to nail the elevation. > Then all you gotta do is sweep and peak. > > I have not talked to anyone that has used one of these things. > If you can find a landmark along the path and use a scope for azimuth you > will be dead on for a lot less money. > > *From:* Steve Jones > *Sent:* Wednesday, February 19, 2020 9:50 AM > *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group > *Subject:* [AFMUG] Advice on spending > > I got approval from the boss to order a smart aligner. Ive been looking at > this for a while, particularly with the need for accuracy in CBRS. Not > looking to use it at customer sites, just backhauls and access points. > We have historically never been verifiably accurate on azimuths, probably > rolled out pretty bad too. We have had issues with contractors not > installing sites to spec, and having to go back up to turn radios/adjust > tilt, etc. > > This will be handy for this year, we are dropping in at least 40 new > access points and 3 or 5 new licensed links in the next few months. but > then the tool will sit > > Boss said the worst thing to me, "get it if you think its necessary". If > it were a $1k tool it wouldnt be a question bet we are looking at almost 7k > on the kit. It meets my accuracy needs, but I almost wonder if the > convenience outweighs the necessary. ant his is over half the cost of a > licensed link. > Knowing my numbers are right in propagation tools holds a lot of value. > saving maybe an hour getting a tight link aligned here and there offsets > some cost. > You old timers, is this a justifiable expenditure based on your experience? > > -- > -- > AF mailing list > AF@af.afmug.com > http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com > -- > AF mailing list > AF@af.afmug.com > http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com > -- AF mailing list AF@af.afmug.com http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
Re: [AFMUG] Advice on spending
I had a project, still have a project to build one. Not trivial because the baseline between the two GPS receivers is very short. Maybe I will finish it someday. If you buy one, let me “borrow it for a few days”... Elevation is very simple. You can buy a cheap electronic level from any hardware store to nail the elevation. Then all you gotta do is sweep and peak. I have not talked to anyone that has used one of these things. If you can find a landmark along the path and use a scope for azimuth you will be dead on for a lot less money. From: Steve Jones Sent: Wednesday, February 19, 2020 9:50 AM To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group Subject: [AFMUG] Advice on spending I got approval from the boss to order a smart aligner. Ive been looking at this for a while, particularly with the need for accuracy in CBRS. Not looking to use it at customer sites, just backhauls and access points. We have historically never been verifiably accurate on azimuths, probably rolled out pretty bad too. We have had issues with contractors not installing sites to spec, and having to go back up to turn radios/adjust tilt, etc. This will be handy for this year, we are dropping in at least 40 new access points and 3 or 5 new licensed links in the next few months. but then the tool will sit Boss said the worst thing to me, "get it if you think its necessary". If it were a $1k tool it wouldnt be a question bet we are looking at almost 7k on the kit. It meets my accuracy needs, but I almost wonder if the convenience outweighs the necessary. ant his is over half the cost of a licensed link. Knowing my numbers are right in propagation tools holds a lot of value. saving maybe an hour getting a tight link aligned here and there offsets some cost. You old timers, is this a justifiable expenditure based on your experience? -- AF mailing list AF@af.afmug.com http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com -- AF mailing list AF@af.afmug.com http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
[AFMUG] Advice on spending
I got approval from the boss to order a smart aligner. Ive been looking at this for a while, particularly with the need for accuracy in CBRS. Not looking to use it at customer sites, just backhauls and access points. We have historically never been verifiably accurate on azimuths, probably rolled out pretty bad too. We have had issues with contractors not installing sites to spec, and having to go back up to turn radios/adjust tilt, etc. This will be handy for this year, we are dropping in at least 40 new access points and 3 or 5 new licensed links in the next few months. but then the tool will sit Boss said the worst thing to me, "get it if you think its necessary". If it were a $1k tool it wouldnt be a question bet we are looking at almost 7k on the kit. It meets my accuracy needs, but I almost wonder if the convenience outweighs the necessary. ant his is over half the cost of a licensed link. Knowing my numbers are right in propagation tools holds a lot of value. saving maybe an hour getting a tight link aligned here and there offsets some cost. You old timers, is this a justifiable expenditure based on your experience? -- AF mailing list AF@af.afmug.com http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
