Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons
The whole point of their waveguide idea was to remove the jumper loss. Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com http://www.spitwspots.com On 10/19/2014 10:06 PM, Ken Hohhof via Af wrote: Maybe RF Elements is onto something with their waveguide port radios, extend using low loss elliptical waveguide and put the radios inside a nice building or enclosure on the ground away from the lighting. *From:* Paul McCall via Af mailto:af@afmug.com *Sent:* Sunday, October 19, 2014 4:42 PM *To:* af@afmug.com mailto:af@afmug.com *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons For us, the biggest issue is the replacement cost of the 450. NOT the initial cost, that is what it is, but we are in the lightning capital of the world. Sometimes we can repair everything that gets hit and sometimes on a direct strike, we can’t repair any of it. On most towers, we deploy 5 Ghz and 2.4 Ghz, so 8 APs each. Some are only one frequency band, so then there are only 4. Say those 4 APs are supporting 50 customers at $ 45 each… $ 2250 / month. (most towers are a less than that and some are more). So, if I lose $ 8K in APs ($ 2000 x 4) in one evening, I am looking at least 4 months of lost revenue just to replace those APs (not counting labor, etc.) We have had commercial, well-grounded towers that get hit twice in a season, so that’s 8 months (probably more like 10 months loss in real business terms) per year. That makes NO sense to play that game. And, again, a lot of towers have two frequency bands, thus 8 APs. We have had 4 commercial towers out of 18 with total losses this year on the APs. Thankfully, the used market on 100 series APs is very low cost, so not nearly as big of an impact. So, with ePMP APs (while maybe not as good as 450APs) I can at least cut my losses by 80%. That’s a big deal ! Unfortunately, that reality forces my hands. Paul *From:*Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] *On Behalf Of *Gino Villarini via Af *Sent:* Sunday, October 19, 2014 5:27 PM *To:* af@afmug.com *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons So it's Roy against the world of sync Gino A. Villarini @gvillarini On Oct 19, 2014, at 5:20 PM, Rory Conaway via Af af@afmug.com mailto:af@afmug.com wrote: Yea, I covered that in one of my articles. I just didn’t see everyone sitting around the campfire singing Kumbya. Another reason I don’t worry about GPS. My next article covers my main reason. Rory *From:*Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] *On Behalf Of *Josh Reynolds via Af *Sent:* Sunday, October 19, 2014 1:56 PM *To:* af@afmug.com mailto:af@afmug.com *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons LOL :) Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com http://www.spitwspots.com On 10/19/2014 08:13 AM, Rory Conaway via Af wrote: I’m assuming all 12 WISPs cooperate with each other? Rory *From:*Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] *On Behalf Of *Mike Hammett via Af *Sent:* Sunday, October 19, 2014 5:33 AM *To:* af@afmug.com mailto:af@afmug.com *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons Entirely not true spoken by a WISP that has up until this point used Mikrotik and Ubiquiti in rural and suburban markets with 12 WISP competitors. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com *From: *Mark Radabaugh via Af af@afmug.com mailto:af@afmug.com *To: *af@afmug.com mailto:af@afmug.com *Sent: *Saturday, October 18, 2014 3:52:03 PM *Subject: *Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons And now your completely out of spectrum and can't deploy anything new. I suppose the good part for you is nobody else can do anything given the amount of noise your making. Mark On 10/18/14, 1:27 PM, Josh Reynolds via Af wrote: You just hit the nail on the head why we have never considered deploying 450 (and similar) in the past: By the time you (relative term) have the cashflow to pay for those sectors, we (another relative term, for people deploying UBNT or similar) have already thrown up 4-6 shielded sectors and at least 10 clients per. If we don't think we can hit a decent sub density or at least make the site a valuable repeater, then we don't go there. Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com http://www.spitwspots.com On 10/18/2014 09:01 AM, Kurt Fankhauser via Af wrote: I prefer sectors too but math doesnt always work out. I'll put the omni in to get the site up and once the customers
Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons
Transitions are like $180 each and the waveguide is about $25/foot. In my experience, lightening gets to you via power conductors. From: Ken Hohhof via Af Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 11:06 PM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons Maybe RF Elements is onto something with their waveguide port radios, extend using low loss elliptical waveguide and put the radios inside a nice building or enclosure on the ground away from the lighting. From: Paul McCall via Af Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 4:42 PM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons For us, the biggest issue is the replacement cost of the 450. NOT the initial cost, that is what it is, but we are in the lightning capital of the world. Sometimes we can repair everything that gets hit and sometimes on a direct strike, we can’t repair any of it. On most towers, we deploy 5 Ghz and 2.4 Ghz, so 8 APs each. Some are only one frequency band, so then there are only 4. Say those 4 APs are supporting 50 customers at $ 45 each… $ 2250 / month. (most towers are a less than that and some are more). So, if I lose $ 8K in APs ($ 2000 x 4) in one evening, I am looking at least 4 months of lost revenue just to replace those APs (not counting labor, etc.) We have had commercial, well-grounded towers that get hit twice in a season, so that’s 8 months (probably more like 10 months loss in real business terms) per year. That makes NO sense to play that game. And, again, a lot of towers have two frequency bands, thus 8 APs. We have had 4 commercial towers out of 18 with total losses this year on the APs. Thankfully, the used market on 100 series APs is very low cost, so not nearly as big of an impact. So, with ePMP APs (while maybe not as good as 450APs) I can at least cut my losses by 80%. That’s a big deal ! Unfortunately, that reality forces my hands. Paul From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Gino Villarini via Af Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 5:27 PM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons So it's Roy against the world of sync Gino A. Villarini @gvillarini On Oct 19, 2014, at 5:20 PM, Rory Conaway via Af af@afmug.com wrote: Yea, I covered that in one of my articles. I just didn’t see everyone sitting around the campfire singing Kumbya. Another reason I don’t worry about GPS. My next article covers my main reason. Rory From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Josh Reynolds via Af Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 1:56 PM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons LOL :) Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com On 10/19/2014 08:13 AM, Rory Conaway via Af wrote: I’m assuming all 12 WISPs cooperate with each other? Rory From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett via Af Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 5:33 AM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons Entirely not true spoken by a WISP that has up until this point used Mikrotik and Ubiquiti in rural and suburban markets with 12 WISP competitors. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com From: Mark Radabaugh via Af af@afmug.com To: af@afmug.com Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 3:52:03 PM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons And now your completely out of spectrum and can't deploy anything new. I suppose the good part for you is nobody else can do anything given the amount of noise your making. Mark On 10/18/14, 1:27 PM, Josh Reynolds via Af wrote: You just hit the nail on the head why we have never considered deploying 450 (and similar) in the past: By the time you (relative term) have the cashflow to pay for those sectors, we (another relative term, for people deploying UBNT or similar) have already thrown up 4-6 shielded sectors and at least 10 clients per. If we don't think we can hit a decent sub density or at least make the site a valuable repeater, then we don't go there. Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com On 10/18/2014 09:01 AM, Kurt Fankhauser via Af wrote: I prefer sectors too but math doesnt always work out. I'll put the omni in to get the site up and once the customers are there change it to sectors. The 450 platform is very easy to drop sectors in and have the existing clients link right up. I have a couple sites with existing customers i am dropping a two sector 450 system in with 120 segree KP antennas. cant afford any more sectors than that per site right now... Sent from my iPhone Kurt Fankhauser Wavelinc Communications
Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons
Even for fiber projects like Google Fiber, I have to assume the big guys envision content moving toward the customer. Like Netflix cache boxes in each town. Forget the transport, what about routing? It doesn’t seem to me that Ultra High Def video on demand to every pair of eyeballs scales if that data has to be routed across the country through routers at interchange points. I suspect the big ISPs also think a lot of that content will be coming from their own servers not Netflix, although CBS and HBO seem to have a different view. But does that mean content providers will have to rent colo space from Comcast and Google Fiber to put CDN servers in every town? From: Joe Falaschi via Af Sent: Monday, October 20, 2014 8:19 AM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons In parts of our suburban coverage NW of Chicago we cannot coordinate 6GHz or 11GHz at some specific sites. What does the picture look like in 10 years when we need to also feed hundreds and hundreds of micropops... To some extent I'm not sure wireless will be a service for the masses. How do you provide 50/10 service to all homes and businesses in a 3000 to 4000:1 population density area? We are 100% wireless right now but it does seem like fiber is the way things are going. Use the wireless to get a customer base to convert later and then keep wireless as a premium product where diversity is required. Until then we will continue to be a boutique player in these areas. I am excited about the new tech coming out and I'm not trying to say we won't take any advance in technology. It will help greatly in low density areas but will future wireless scale to a true high density area for someone who is going to take significant market share? For example 14000 population in 4 miles, 50% take rate, 7000 customers. 50Mbps service. 100:1 usage ratio. Is that 3.5Gbps of usage using those assumptions? Maybe, until you need to provide 100Mbps service much less 1Gbps. I'd love for someone to make it possible without going down the fiber route but it doesn't seem obvious to me right now that 100% wireless could take the place of Comcast's Internet product in urban and suburban areas. Joe Falaschi http://www.e-vergent.com On 10/19/14, 11:09 PM, Tyler Treat via Af wrote: What's your Backhaul strategy for having this many sites. How many hops do you get from fiber? With a ton of small sites, it seems like it would scale to an unmanageable level very quickly...? ___ Mangled by my iPhone. ___ Tyler Treat Corn Belt Technologies, Inc. tyler.tr...@cornbelttech.com ___ On Oct 19, 2014, at 10:52 PM, Rory Conaway via Af af@afmug.com wrote: +1. I’ve already hit CenturyLink’s fastest speeds with anemic little Rocket 5M’s and nothing special. Imagine what happens when the Rocket AC or Mimosa come out with their products. Those features target the urban market where which I’ve seen numbers like 84% of the population is and for the most part, WISPS aren’t. Rory From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Josh Reynolds via Af Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 5:39 PM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons Microcells normally have good SNR. Add 802.11AC into the mix and you have very good performance without the crappy latency hit. Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com On 10/19/2014 05:27 PM, Mike Hammett via Af wrote: Then you miss out on the best performance. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com -- From: Rory Conaway via Af mailto:af@afmug.com To: af@afmug.com Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 4:33:21 PM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons Ahh, difference of philosophies. I just don’t want my business dependent on competitors or single suppliers. Rory From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Gino Villarini via Af Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 2:27 PM To: mailto:af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons So it's Roy against the world of sync Gino A. Villarini @gvillarini On Oct 19, 2014, at 5:20 PM, Rory Conaway via Af af@afmug.com wrote: Yea, I covered that in one of my articles. I just didn’t see everyone sitting around the campfire singing Kumbya. Another reason I don’t worry about GPS. My next article covers my main reason. Rory From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Josh Reynolds via Af Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 1:56 PM To: af@afmug.com
Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons
I'm thinking much closer to the customer. Same as Class 5 POTS switches, a town of 10,000 households gets a mini data center. Actually, someone should look at repurposing those windowless brick buildings in the center of towns. -Original Message- From: Seth Mattinen via Af Sent: Monday, October 20, 2014 9:01 AM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons On 10/20/14, 6:59 AM, Ken Hohhof via Af wrote: Even for fiber projects like Google Fiber, I have to assume the big guys envision content moving toward the customer. Like Netflix cache boxes in each town. Forget the transport, what about routing? It doesn’t seem to me that Ultra High Def video on demand to every pair of eyeballs scales if that data has to be routed across the country through routers at interchange points. I suspect the big ISPs also think a lot of that content will be coming from their own servers not Netflix, although CBS and HBO seem to have a different view. But does that mean content providers will have to rent colo space from Comcast and Google Fiber to put CDN servers in every town? Or nearest IX peering fabric. ~Seth
Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons
I'm looking at something similar in some of my areas. We actually have trees here, so I'd be looking to locate feeds up to real towers or down to fiber, but have a couple hops between houses go under the trees. It's not going to cover the whole town, but if it does so reliably then it might be a way to go. Well, then in other areas it's new subdivisions without trees and I'm on the water tower serving them, so these horns look pretty good. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com - Original Message - From: Tyler Treat via Af af@afmug.com To: af@afmug.com Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 11:09:30 PM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons What's your Backhaul strategy for having this many sites. How many hops do you get from fiber? With a ton of small sites, it seems like it would scale to an unmanageable level very quickly...? ___ Mangled by my iPhone. ___ Tyler Treat Corn Belt Technologies, Inc. tyler.tr...@cornbelttech.com ___ On Oct 19, 2014, at 10:52 PM, Rory Conaway via Af af@afmug.com wrote: +1. I’ve already hit CenturyLink’s fastest speeds with anemic little Rocket 5M’s and nothing special. Imagine what happens when the Rocket AC or Mimosa come out with their products. Those features target the urban market where which I’ve seen numbers like 84% of the population is and for the most part, WISPS aren’t. Rory From: Af [ mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com ] On Behalf Of Josh Reynolds via Af Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 5:39 PM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons Microcells normally have good SNR. Add 802.11AC into the mix and you have very good performance without the crappy latency hit. Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com On 10/19/2014 05:27 PM, Mike Hammett via Af wrote: blockquote Then you miss out on the best performance. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com - Original Message - From: Rory Conaway via Af af@afmug.com To: af@afmug.com Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 4:33:21 PM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons Ahh, difference of philosophies. I just don’t want my business dependent on competitors or single suppliers. Rory From: Af [ mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com ] On Behalf Of Gino Villarini via Af Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 2:27 PM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons So it's Roy against the world of sync Gino A. Villarini @gvillarini On Oct 19, 2014, at 5:20 PM, Rory Conaway via Af af@afmug.com wrote: blockquote Yea, I covered that in one of my articles. I just didn’t see everyone sitting around the campfire singing Kumbya. Another reason I don’t worry about GPS. My next article covers my main reason. Rory From: Af [ mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com ] On Behalf Of Josh Reynolds via Af Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 1:56 PM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons LOL :) Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com On 10/19/2014 08:13 AM, Rory Conaway via Af wrote: blockquote I’m assuming all 12 WISPs cooperate with each other? Rory From: Af [ mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com ] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett via Af Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 5:33 AM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons Entirely not true spoken by a WISP that has up until this point used Mikrotik and Ubiquiti in rural and suburban markets with 12 WISP competitors. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com From: Mark Radabaugh via Af af@afmug.com To: af@afmug.com Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 3:52:03 PM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons And now your completely out of spectrum and can't deploy anything new. I suppose the good part for you is nobody else can do anything given the amount of noise your making. Mark On 10/18/14, 1:27 PM, Josh Reynolds via Af wrote: blockquote You just hit the nail on the head why we have never considered deploying 450 (and similar) in the past: By the time you (relative term) have the cashflow to pay for those sectors, we (another relative term, for people deploying UBNT or similar) have already thrown up 4-6 shielded sectors and at least 10 clients per. If we don' t think we can hit a decent sub density or at least make the site a valuable repeater, then we don't go there. Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com On 10/18/2014 09:01 AM, Kurt Fankhauser via Af wrote: blockquote I prefer sectors too but math doesnt always work out. I'll put the omni in to get the site up and once the customers are there change it to sectors. The 450 platform is very easy to drop sectors in and have the existing
Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons
Is the 450 still only 20mhz and under? If they even can or do up it to like 80mhz like mimosa is going to do, how close could the 450 get to 600meg cap with just firmware upgrades? Any guesses? Craig R. Schmaderer CEO | Skywave Wireless, Inc. Ph: 402-372-1975 | Fax: 402-372-1058 Direct: 402-372-1052 From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett via Af Sent: Monday, October 20, 2014 10:25 AM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons I'm just glad to have fewer steps. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com From: Josh Reynolds via Af af@afmug.commailto:af@afmug.com To: af@afmug.commailto:af@afmug.com Sent: Monday, October 20, 2014 1:36:26 AM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons The whole point of their waveguide idea was to remove the jumper loss. Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.comhttp://www.spitwspots.com On 10/19/2014 10:06 PM, Ken Hohhof via Af wrote: Maybe RF Elements is onto something with their waveguide port radios, extend using low loss elliptical waveguide and put the radios inside a nice building or enclosure on the ground away from the lighting. From: Paul McCall via Afmailto:af@afmug.com Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 4:42 PM To: af@afmug.commailto:af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons For us, the biggest issue is the replacement cost of the 450. NOT the initial cost, that is what it is, but we are in the lightning capital of the world. Sometimes we can repair everything that gets hit and sometimes on a direct strike, we can’t repair any of it. On most towers, we deploy 5 Ghz and 2.4 Ghz, so 8 APs each. Some are only one frequency band, so then there are only 4. Say those 4 APs are supporting 50 customers at $ 45 each… $ 2250 / month. (most towers are a less than that and some are more). So, if I lose $ 8K in APs ($ 2000 x 4) in one evening, I am looking at least 4 months of lost revenue just to replace those APs (not counting labor, etc.) We have had commercial, well-grounded towers that get hit twice in a season, so that’s 8 months (probably more like 10 months loss in real business terms) per year. That makes NO sense to play that game. And, again, a lot of towers have two frequency bands, thus 8 APs. We have had 4 commercial towers out of 18 with total losses this year on the APs. Thankfully, the used market on 100 series APs is very low cost, so not nearly as big of an impact. So, with ePMP APs (while maybe not as good as 450APs) I can at least cut my losses by 80%. That’s a big deal ! Unfortunately, that reality forces my hands. Paul From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Gino Villarini via Af Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 5:27 PM To: af@afmug.commailto:af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons So it's Roy against the world of sync Gino A. Villarini @gvillarini On Oct 19, 2014, at 5:20 PM, Rory Conaway via Af af@afmug.commailto:af@afmug.com wrote: Yea, I covered that in one of my articles. I just didn’t see everyone sitting around the campfire singing Kumbya. Another reason I don’t worry about GPS. My next article covers my main reason. Rory From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Josh Reynolds via Af Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 1:56 PM To: af@afmug.commailto:af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons LOL :) Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.comhttp://www.spitwspots.com On 10/19/2014 08:13 AM, Rory Conaway via Af wrote: I’m assuming all 12 WISPs cooperate with each other? Rory From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett via Af Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 5:33 AM To: af@afmug.commailto:af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons Entirely not true spoken by a WISP that has up until this point used Mikrotik and Ubiquiti in rural and suburban markets with 12 WISP competitors. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com From: Mark Radabaugh via Af af@afmug.commailto:af@afmug.com To: af@afmug.commailto:af@afmug.com Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 3:52:03 PM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons And now your completely out of spectrum and can't deploy anything new. I suppose the good part for you is nobody else can do anything given the amount of noise your making. Mark On 10/18/14, 1:27 PM, Josh Reynolds via Af wrote: You just hit the nail on the head why we have never considered deploying 450 (and similar) in the past: By the time you (relative term) have the cashflow to pay for those sectors, we (another relative term, for people deploying UBNT or similar) have already thrown up 4-6 shielded sectors and at least 10 clients per. If we don't think we can hit a decent sub density or at least make the site a valuable
Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons
Well the Mimosa will deliver 620 megabits or so to two clients at the same time, so 1,200+ total from one AP. How much room is there for growth in 450? *shrugs* How long has it been out and how much growth have you seen thus far? - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com - Original Message - From: Craig Schmaderer via Af af@afmug.com To: af@afmug.com Sent: Monday, October 20, 2014 12:10:16 PM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons Is the 450 still only 20mhz and under? If they even can or do up it to like 80mhz like mimosa is going to do, how close could the 450 get to 600meg cap with just firmware upgrades? Any guesses? Craig R. Schmaderer CEO | Skywave Wireless, Inc. Ph: 402-372-1975 | Fax: 402-372-1058 Direct: 402-372-1052 From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett via Af Sent: Monday, October 20, 2014 10:25 AM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons I'm just glad to have fewer steps. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com - Original Message - From: Josh Reynolds via Af af@afmug.com To: af@afmug.com Sent: Monday, October 20, 2014 1:36:26 AM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons The whole point of their waveguide idea was to remove the jumper loss. Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com On 10/19/2014 10:06 PM, Ken Hohhof via Af wrote: Maybe RF Elements is onto something with their waveguide port radios, extend using low loss elliptical waveguide and put the radios inside a nice building or enclosure on the ground away from the lighting. From: Paul McCall via Af Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 4:42 PM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons For us, the biggest issue is the replacement cost of the 450. NOT the initial cost, that is what it is, but we are in the lightning capital of the world. Sometimes we can repair everything that gets hit and sometimes on a direct strike, we can’t repair any of it. On most towers, we deploy 5 Ghz and 2.4 Ghz, so 8 APs each. Some are only one frequency band, so then there are only 4. Say those 4 APs are supporting 50 customers at $ 45 each… $ 2250 / month. (most towers are a less than that and some are more). So, if I lose $ 8K in APs ($ 2000 x 4) in one evening, I am looking at least 4 months of lost revenue just to replace those APs (not counting labor, etc.) We have had commercial, well-grounded towers that get hit twice in a season, so that’s 8 months (probably more like 10 months loss in real business terms) per year. That makes NO sense to play that game. And, again, a lot of towers have two frequency bands, thus 8 APs. We have had 4 commercial towers out of 18 with total losses this year on the APs. Thankfully, the used market on 100 series APs is very low cost, so not nearly as big of an impact. So, with ePMP APs (while maybe not as good as 450APs) I can at least cut my losses by 80%. That’s a big deal ! Unfortunately, that reality forces my hands. Paul From: Af [ mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com ] On Behalf Of Gino Villarini via Af Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 5:27 PM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons So it's Roy against the world of sync Gino A. Villarini @gvillarini On Oct 19, 2014, at 5:20 PM, Rory Conaway via Af af@afmug.com wrote: blockquote Yea, I covered that in one of my articles. I just didn’t see everyone sitting around the campfire singing Kumbya. Another reason I don’t worry about GPS. My next article covers my main reason. Rory From: Af [ mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com ] On Behalf Of Josh Reynolds via Af Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 1:56 PM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons LOL :) Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com On 10/19/2014 08:13 AM, Rory Conaway via Af wrote: blockquote I’m assuming all 12 WISPs cooperate with each other? Rory From: Af [ mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com ] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett via Af Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 5:33 AM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons Entirely not true spoken by a WISP that has up until this point used Mikrotik and Ubiquiti in rural and suburban markets with 12 WISP competitors. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com From: Mark Radabaugh via Af af@afmug.com To: af@afmug.com Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 3:52:03 PM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons And now your completely out of spectrum and can't deploy anything new. I suppose the good part for you is nobody else can do anything given the amount of noise your making. Mark On 10/18/14, 1:27 PM, Josh Reynolds via Af wrote: blockquote You just hit the nail on the head why we
Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons
On the existing hardware? At one time there were hints about 256QAM and 40MHz channels, hence the GigE interface on the AP. They delivered on 256QAM, I haven’t heard about 40 MHz in awhile, I doubt 80 MHz is under consideration. Also they needed a lot of firmware optimization to get throughput to a single SM up to what the RF can do now. So I’d guess even 100 Mbps to a single SM would take new hardware. From: Mike Hammett via Af Sent: Monday, October 20, 2014 12:13 PM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons Well the Mimosa will deliver 620 megabits or so to two clients at the same time, so 1,200+ total from one AP. How much room is there for growth in 450? *shrugs* How long has it been out and how much growth have you seen thus far? - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com From: Craig Schmaderer via Af af@afmug.com To: af@afmug.com Sent: Monday, October 20, 2014 12:10:16 PM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons Is the 450 still only 20mhz and under? If they even can or do up it to like 80mhz like mimosa is going to do, how close could the 450 get to 600meg cap with just firmware upgrades? Any guesses? Craig R. Schmaderer CEO | Skywave Wireless, Inc. Ph: 402-372-1975 | Fax: 402-372-1058 Direct: 402-372-1052 From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett via Af Sent: Monday, October 20, 2014 10:25 AM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons I'm just glad to have fewer steps. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com From: Josh Reynolds via Af af@afmug.com To: af@afmug.com Sent: Monday, October 20, 2014 1:36:26 AM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons The whole point of their waveguide idea was to remove the jumper loss. Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com On 10/19/2014 10:06 PM, Ken Hohhof via Af wrote: Maybe RF Elements is onto something with their waveguide port radios, extend using low loss elliptical waveguide and put the radios inside a nice building or enclosure on the ground away from the lighting. From: Paul McCall via Af Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 4:42 PM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons For us, the biggest issue is the replacement cost of the 450. NOT the initial cost, that is what it is, but we are in the lightning capital of the world. Sometimes we can repair everything that gets hit and sometimes on a direct strike, we can’t repair any of it. On most towers, we deploy 5 Ghz and 2.4 Ghz, so 8 APs each. Some are only one frequency band, so then there are only 4. Say those 4 APs are supporting 50 customers at $ 45 each… $ 2250 / month. (most towers are a less than that and some are more). So, if I lose $ 8K in APs ($ 2000 x 4) in one evening, I am looking at least 4 months of lost revenue just to replace those APs (not counting labor, etc.) We have had commercial, well-grounded towers that get hit twice in a season, so that’s 8 months (probably more like 10 months loss in real business terms) per year. That makes NO sense to play that game. And, again, a lot of towers have two frequency bands, thus 8 APs. We have had 4 commercial towers out of 18 with total losses this year on the APs. Thankfully, the used market on 100 series APs is very low cost, so not nearly as big of an impact. So, with ePMP APs (while maybe not as good as 450APs) I can at least cut my losses by 80%. That’s a big deal ! Unfortunately, that reality forces my hands. Paul From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Gino Villarini via Af Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 5:27 PM To: mailto:af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons So it's Roy against the world of sync Gino A. Villarini @gvillarini On Oct 19, 2014, at 5:20 PM, Rory Conaway via Af af@afmug.com wrote: Yea, I covered that in one of my articles. I just didn’t see everyone sitting around the campfire singing Kumbya. Another reason I don’t worry about GPS. My next article covers my main reason. Rory From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Josh Reynolds via Af Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 1:56 PM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons LOL :) Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com On 10/19/2014 08:13 AM, Rory Conaway via Af wrote: I’m assuming all 12 WISPs cooperate with each other? Rory From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett via Af Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 5:33 AM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re
Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons
Them's fightin words to a lot of people around these parts. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com - Original Message - From: Andy Trimmell via Af af@afmug.com To: af@afmug.com Sent: Monday, October 20, 2014 12:28:23 PM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons The real question is why pay for the 450 when the ePMP does the same thing if not better for the price point. From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett via Af Sent: Monday, October 20, 2014 1:24 PM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons Well no not on existing hardware, but it doesn't look like PMP450 can do that either. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com - Original Message - From: Ken Hohhof via Af af@afmug.com To: af@afmug.com Sent: Monday, October 20, 2014 12:22:39 PM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons On the existing hardware? At one time there were hints about 256QAM and 40MHz channels, hence the GigE interface on the AP. They delivered on 256QAM, I haven’t heard about 40 MHz in awhile, I doubt 80 MHz is under consideration. Also they needed a lot of firmware optimization to get throughput to a single SM up to what the RF can do now. So I’d guess even 100 Mbps to a single SM would take new hardware. From: Mike Hammett via Af Sent: Monday, October 20, 2014 12:13 PM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons Well the Mimosa will deliver 620 megabits or so to two clients at the same time, so 1,200+ total from one AP. How much room is there for growth in 450? *shrugs* How long has it been out and how much growth have you seen thus far? - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com - Original Message - From: Craig Schmaderer via Af af@afmug.com To: af@afmug.com Sent: Monday, October 20, 2014 12:10:16 PM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons Is the 450 still only 20mhz and under? If they even can or do up it to like 80mhz like mimosa is going to do, how close could the 450 get to 600meg cap with just firmware upgrades? Any guesses? Craig R. Schmaderer CEO | Skywave Wireless, Inc. Ph: 402-372-1975 | Fax: 402-372-1058 Direct: 402-372-1052 From: Af [ mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com ] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett via Af Sent: Monday, October 20, 2014 10:25 AM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons I'm just glad to have fewer steps. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com From: Josh Reynolds via Af af@afmug.com To: af@afmug.com Sent: Monday, October 20, 2014 1:36:26 AM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons The whole point of their waveguide idea was to remove the jumper loss. Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com On 10/19/2014 10:06 PM, Ken Hohhof via Af wrote: Maybe RF Elements is onto something with their waveguide port radios, extend using low loss elliptical waveguide and put the radios inside a nice building or enclosure on the ground away from the lighting. From: Paul McCall via Af Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 4:42 PM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons For us, the biggest issue is the replacement cost of the 450. NOT the initial cost, that is what it is, but we are in the lightning capital of the world. Sometimes we can repair everything that gets hit and sometimes on a direct strike, we can’t repair any of it. On most towers, we deploy 5 Ghz and 2.4 Ghz, so 8 APs each. Some are only one frequency band, so then there are only 4. Say those 4 APs are supporting 50 customers at $ 45 each… $ 2250 / month. (most towers are a less than that and some are more). So, if I lose $ 8K in APs ($ 2000 x 4) in one evening, I am looking at least 4 months of lost revenue just to replace those APs (not counting labor, etc.) We have had commercial, well-grounded towers that get hit twice in a season, so that’s 8 months (probably more like 10 months loss in real business terms) per year. That makes NO sense to play that game. And, again, a lot of towers have two frequency bands, thus 8 APs. We have had 4 commercial towers out of 18 with total losses this year on the APs. Thankfully, the used market on 100 series APs is very low cost, so not nearly as big of an impact. So, with ePMP APs (while maybe not as good as 450APs) I can at least cut my losses by 80%. That’s a big deal ! Unfortunately, that reality forces my hands. Paul From: Af [ mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com ] On Behalf Of Gino Villarini via Af Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 5:27 PM To: mailto:af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons So it's Roy against the world of sync Gino A. Villarini @gvillarini On Oct 19, 2014, at 5:20 PM
Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons
At some point (soon?) the 450 SM needs a processor boost. Is that what the PMP455 is all about? bp On 10/20/2014 10:24 AM, Mike Hammett via Af wrote: Well no not on existing hardware, but it doesn't look like PMP450 can do that either. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com https://www.facebook.com/ICSILhttps://plus.google.com/+IntelligentComputingSolutionsDeKalbhttps://www.linkedin.com/company/intelligent-computing-solutionshttps://twitter.com/ICSIL *From: *Ken Hohhof via Af af@afmug.com *To: *af@afmug.com *Sent: *Monday, October 20, 2014 12:22:39 PM *Subject: *Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons On the existing hardware? At one time there were hints about 256QAM and 40MHz channels, hence the GigE interface on the AP. They delivered on 256QAM, I haven’t heard about 40 MHz in awhile, I doubt 80 MHz is under consideration. Also they needed a lot of firmware optimization to get throughput to a single SM up to what the RF can do now. So I’d guess even 100 Mbps to a single SM would take new hardware. *From:* Mike Hammett via Af mailto:af@afmug.com *Sent:* Monday, October 20, 2014 12:13 PM *To:* af@afmug.com mailto:af@afmug.com *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons Well the Mimosa will deliver 620 megabits or so to two clients at the same time, so 1,200+ total from one AP. How much room is there for growth in 450? *shrugs* How long has it been out and how much growth have you seen thus far? - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com https://www.facebook.com/ICSILhttps://plus.google.com/+IntelligentComputingSolutionsDeKalbhttps://www.linkedin.com/company/intelligent-computing-solutionshttps://twitter.com/ICSIL *From: *Craig Schmaderer via Af af@afmug.com *To: *af@afmug.com *Sent: *Monday, October 20, 2014 12:10:16 PM *Subject: *Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons Is the 450 still only 20mhz and under? If they even can or do up it to like 80mhz like mimosa is going to do, how close could the 450 get to 600meg cap with just firmware upgrades? Any guesses? /Craig R. Schmaderer/ /CEO | Skywave Wireless, Inc./ /Ph: 402-372-1975 | Fax: 402-372-1058/ /Direct: 402-372-1052/ *From:*Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] *On Behalf Of *Mike Hammett via Af *Sent:* Monday, October 20, 2014 10:25 AM *To:* af@afmug.com *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons I'm just glad to have fewer steps. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com *From: *Josh Reynolds via Af af@afmug.com mailto:af@afmug.com *To: *af@afmug.com mailto:af@afmug.com *Sent: *Monday, October 20, 2014 1:36:26 AM *Subject: *Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons The whole point of their waveguide idea was to remove the jumper loss. Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com http://www.spitwspots.com On 10/19/2014 10:06 PM, Ken Hohhof via Af wrote: Maybe RF Elements is onto something with their waveguide port radios, extend using low loss elliptical waveguide and put the radios inside a nice building or enclosure on the ground away from the lighting. *From:*Paul McCall via Af mailto:af@afmug.com *Sent:*Sunday, October 19, 2014 4:42 PM *To:*af@afmug.com mailto:af@afmug.com *Subject:*Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons For us, the biggest issue is the replacement cost of the 450. NOT the initial cost, that is what it is, but we are in the lightning capital of the world. Sometimes we can repair everything that gets hit and sometimes on a direct strike, we can’t repair any of it. On most towers, we deploy 5 Ghz and 2.4 Ghz, so 8 APs each. Some are only one frequency band, so then there are only 4. Say those 4 APs are supporting 50 customers at $ 45 each… $ 2250 / month. (most towers are a less than that and some are more). So, if I lose $ 8K in APs ($ 2000 x 4) in one evening, I am looking at least 4 months of lost revenue just to replace those APs (not counting labor, etc.) We have had commercial, well-grounded towers that get hit twice in a season, so that’s 8 months (probably more like 10 months loss in real business terms) per year. That makes NO sense to play that game. And, again, a lot of towers have two frequency bands, thus 8 APs. We have had 4 commercial towers out of 18 with total losses this year on the APs. Thankfully, the used market on 100 series APs is very low cost, so not nearly as big of an impact. So, with ePMP APs (while maybe not as good as 450APs) I can at least cut my losses by 80%. That’s a big deal ! Unfortunately, that reality forces my hands. Paul *From:*Af [mailto:af-boun
Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons
Yes, as I understand it. Bigger CPU and also an improved RF front end. Don’t worry, they are insistent it will leave no 450SM behind. I’m thinking the 450AP will be phased out, however. PC Blaze Broadband From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Bill Prince via Af Sent: Monday, October 20, 2014 1:31 PM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons At some point (soon?) the 450 SM needs a processor boost. Is that what the PMP455 is all about? bp On 10/20/2014 10:24 AM, Mike Hammett via Af wrote: Well no not on existing hardware, but it doesn't look like PMP450 can do that either. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL https://plus.google.com/+IntelligentComputingSolutionsDeKalb https://www.linkedin.com/company/intelligent-computing-solutions https://twitter.com/ICSIL _ From: Ken Hohhof via Af mailto:af@afmug.com af@afmug.com To: af@afmug.com Sent: Monday, October 20, 2014 12:22:39 PM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons On the existing hardware? At one time there were hints about 256QAM and 40MHz channels, hence the GigE interface on the AP. They delivered on 256QAM, I haven’t heard about 40 MHz in awhile, I doubt 80 MHz is under consideration. Also they needed a lot of firmware optimization to get throughput to a single SM up to what the RF can do now. So I’d guess even 100 Mbps to a single SM would take new hardware. From: Mike Hammett via Af mailto:af@afmug.com Sent: Monday, October 20, 2014 12:13 PM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons Well the Mimosa will deliver 620 megabits or so to two clients at the same time, so 1,200+ total from one AP. How much room is there for growth in 450? *shrugs* How long has it been out and how much growth have you seen thus far? - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL https://plus.google.com/+IntelligentComputingSolutionsDeKalb https://www.linkedin.com/company/intelligent-computing-solutions https://twitter.com/ICSIL _ From: Craig Schmaderer via Af mailto:af@afmug.com af@afmug.com To: af@afmug.com Sent: Monday, October 20, 2014 12:10:16 PM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons Is the 450 still only 20mhz and under? If they even can or do up it to like 80mhz like mimosa is going to do, how close could the 450 get to 600meg cap with just firmware upgrades? Any guesses? Craig R. Schmaderer CEO | Skywave Wireless, Inc. Ph: 402-372-1975 | Fax: 402-372-1058 Direct: 402-372-1052 From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett via Af Sent: Monday, October 20, 2014 10:25 AM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons I'm just glad to have fewer steps. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com _ From: Josh Reynolds via Af af@afmug.com To: af@afmug.com Sent: Monday, October 20, 2014 1:36:26 AM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons The whole point of their waveguide idea was to remove the jumper loss. Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com On 10/19/2014 10:06 PM, Ken Hohhof via Af wrote: Maybe RF Elements is onto something with their waveguide port radios, extend using low loss elliptical waveguide and put the radios inside a nice building or enclosure on the ground away from the lighting. From: Paul McCall via Af mailto:af@afmug.com Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 4:42 PM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons For us, the biggest issue is the replacement cost of the 450. NOT the initial cost, that is what it is, but we are in the lightning capital of the world. Sometimes we can repair everything that gets hit and sometimes on a direct strike, we can’t repair any of it. On most towers, we deploy 5 Ghz and 2.4 Ghz, so 8 APs each. Some are only one frequency band, so then there are only 4. Say those 4 APs are supporting 50 customers at $ 45 each… $ 2250 / month. (most towers are a less than that and some are more). So, if I lose $ 8K in APs ($ 2000 x 4) in one evening, I am looking at least 4 months of lost revenue just to replace those APs (not counting labor, etc.) We have had commercial, well-grounded towers that get hit twice in a season, so that’s 8 months (probably more like 10 months loss in real business terms) per year. That makes NO sense to play that game. And, again, a lot of towers have two frequency bands, thus 8 APs. We have had 4 commercial towers out of 18 with total losses this year on the APs. Thankfully, the used market on 100 series APs is very low cost, so not nearly as big of an impact. So, with ePMP APs (while maybe not as good as 450APs) I can at least cut my losses by 80%. That’s a big deal ! Unfortunately
Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons
http://www.extremetech.com/extreme/120803-vortex-radio-waves-could-boost-wireless-capacity-infinitely On Oct 20, 2014, at 7:59 AM, Rory Conaway via Af af@afmug.com wrote: http://www.fiercewireless.com/tech/story/startup-magnacom-hypes-spectrum-saving-alternative-qam/2013-12-17 From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Rory Conaway via Af Sent: Monday, October 20, 2014 6:58 AM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons I’m not sure of your 100:1 usage ratio but keep this in mind, to extend the life of DSL, CenturyLink is building Fiber to the Node to get closer which allows them to sell 40Mbps service. Since you will be able to easily deliver 500-1Gbps on a single AP (realistically, I’d be comfortable with the 500Mbps to start), instead of delivering FTTH, deliver Fiber to the Node (FTTN) and the use wireless for the last few hundred feet. If it was a bad technical/business mode, Vivint wouldn’t be doing it. However, I don’t even think FTTN is necessary in most areas based on what I know. Keep in mind that 802.11ac CPE’s will be hitting 250Mbps or more. I don’t see 100mbps being needed for a few more years, as right now, 4K NetFlix is the only real high bandwidth app on the near Horizon. Fiber is great if you can amortize it but next generation wireless will be more profitable in the short term. BTW, I just read that someone has already successfully tested 4096 and the WAM guys are saying they are even better. Wireless isn’t even close to hitting it’s limits. Rory From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Joe Falaschi via Af Sent: Monday, October 20, 2014 6:19 AM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons In parts of our suburban coverage NW of Chicago we cannot coordinate 6GHz or 11GHz at some specific sites. What does the picture look like in 10 years when we need to also feed hundreds and hundreds of micropops... To some extent I'm not sure wireless will be a service for the masses. How do you provide 50/10 service to all homes and businesses in a 3000 to 4000:1 population density area? We are 100% wireless right now but it does seem like fiber is the way things are going. Use the wireless to get a customer base to convert later and then keep wireless as a premium product where diversity is required. Until then we will continue to be a boutique player in these areas. I am excited about the new tech coming out and I'm not trying to say we won't take any advance in technology. It will help greatly in low density areas but will future wireless scale to a true high density area for someone who is going to take significant market share? For example 14000 population in 4 miles, 50% take rate, 7000 customers. 50Mbps service. 100:1 usage ratio. Is that 3.5Gbps of usage using those assumptions? Maybe, until you need to provide 100Mbps service much less 1Gbps. I'd love for someone to make it possible without going down the fiber route but it doesn't seem obvious to me right now that 100% wireless could take the place of Comcast's Internet product in urban and suburban areas. Joe Falaschi http://www.e-vergent.com On 10/19/14, 11:09 PM, Tyler Treat via Af wrote: What's your Backhaul strategy for having this many sites. How many hops do you get from fiber? With a ton of small sites, it seems like it would scale to an unmanageable level very quickly...? ___ Mangled by my iPhone. ___ Tyler Treat Corn Belt Technologies, Inc. tyler.tr...@cornbelttech.com ___ On Oct 19, 2014, at 10:52 PM, Rory Conaway via Af af@afmug.com wrote: +1. I’ve already hit CenturyLink’s fastest speeds with anemic little Rocket 5M’s and nothing special. Imagine what happens when the Rocket AC or Mimosa come out with their products. Those features target the urban market where which I’ve seen numbers like 84% of the population is and for the most part, WISPS aren’t. Rory From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Josh Reynolds via Af Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 5:39 PM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons Microcells normally have good SNR. Add 802.11AC into the mix and you have very good performance without the crappy latency hit. Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com On 10/19/2014 05:27 PM, Mike Hammett via Af wrote: Then you miss out on the best performance. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com From: Rory Conaway via Af af@afmug.com To: af@afmug.com Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 4:33:21 PM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons Ahh, difference of philosophies. I just don’t want my business dependent on competitors or single suppliers. Rory From: Af [mailto:af-boun
Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons
Oh, and an ARM coprocessor to go along with the FPGA. Forgot that little detail. PC Blaze Broadband On October 20, 2014 1:38:58 PM EDT, Paul Conlin via Af af@afmug.com wrote: Yes, as I understand it. Bigger CPU and also an improved RF front end. Don’t worry, they are insistent it will leave no 450SM behind. I’m thinking the 450AP will be phased out, however. PC Blaze Broadband From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Bill Prince via Af Sent: Monday, October 20, 2014 1:31 PM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons At some point (soon?) the 450 SM needs a processor boost. Is that what the PMP455 is all about? bp On 10/20/2014 10:24 AM, Mike Hammett via Af wrote: Well no not on existing hardware, but it doesn't look like PMP450 can do that either. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL https://plus.google.com/+IntelligentComputingSolutionsDeKalb https://www.linkedin.com/company/intelligent-computing-solutions https://twitter.com/ICSIL _ From: Ken Hohhof via Af mailto:af@afmug.com af@afmug.com To: af@afmug.com Sent: Monday, October 20, 2014 12:22:39 PM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons On the existing hardware? At one time there were hints about 256QAM and 40MHz channels, hence the GigE interface on the AP. They delivered on 256QAM, I haven’t heard about 40 MHz in awhile, I doubt 80 MHz is under consideration. Also they needed a lot of firmware optimization to get throughput to a single SM up to what the RF can do now. So I’d guess even 100 Mbps to a single SM would take new hardware. From: Mike Hammett via Af mailto:af@afmug.com Sent: Monday, October 20, 2014 12:13 PM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons Well the Mimosa will deliver 620 megabits or so to two clients at the same time, so 1,200+ total from one AP. How much room is there for growth in 450? *shrugs* How long has it been out and how much growth have you seen thus far? - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL https://plus.google.com/+IntelligentComputingSolutionsDeKalb https://www.linkedin.com/company/intelligent-computing-solutions https://twitter.com/ICSIL _ From: Craig Schmaderer via Af mailto:af@afmug.com af@afmug.com To: af@afmug.com Sent: Monday, October 20, 2014 12:10:16 PM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons Is the 450 still only 20mhz and under? If they even can or do up it to like 80mhz like mimosa is going to do, how close could the 450 get to 600meg cap with just firmware upgrades? Any guesses? Craig R. Schmaderer CEO | Skywave Wireless, Inc. Ph: 402-372-1975 | Fax: 402-372-1058 Direct: 402-372-1052 From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett via Af Sent: Monday, October 20, 2014 10:25 AM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons I'm just glad to have fewer steps. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com _ From: Josh Reynolds via Af af@afmug.com To: af@afmug.com Sent: Monday, October 20, 2014 1:36:26 AM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons The whole point of their waveguide idea was to remove the jumper loss. Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com On 10/19/2014 10:06 PM, Ken Hohhof via Af wrote: Maybe RF Elements is onto something with their waveguide port radios, extend using low loss elliptical waveguide and put the radios inside a nice building or enclosure on the ground away from the lighting. From: Paul McCall via Af mailto:af@afmug.com Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 4:42 PM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons For us, the biggest issue is the replacement cost of the 450. NOT the initial cost, that is what it is, but we are in the lightning capital of the world. Sometimes we can repair everything that gets hit and sometimes on a direct strike, we can’t repair any of it. On most towers, we deploy 5 Ghz and 2.4 Ghz, so 8 APs each. Some are only one frequency band, so then there are only 4. Say those 4 APs are supporting 50 customers at $ 45 each… $ 2250 / month. (most towers are a less than that and some are more). So, if I lose $ 8K in APs ($ 2000 x 4) in one evening, I am looking at least 4 months of lost revenue just to replace those APs (not counting labor, etc.) We have had commercial, well-grounded towers that get hit twice in a season, so that’s 8 months (probably more like 10 months loss in real business terms) per year. That makes NO sense to play that game. And, again, a lot of towers have two frequency bands, thus 8 APs. We have had 4 commercial towers out of 18 with total losses this year on the APs. Thankfully, the used market on 100 series APs is very low cost, so not nearly as big
Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons
The 450 is processor limited but really, upgrading the processor and coming out with newer firmware doesn’t mean a full forklift. However, the clients also have some horsepower limitations. The tradeoff though, is better masking. There are some directions to go here because of the better radio but it’s going to take 2-3 years to make that happen. Rory From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett via Af Sent: Monday, October 20, 2014 10:30 AM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons Them's fightin words to a lot of people around these parts. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL https://plus.google.com/+IntelligentComputingSolutionsDeKalb https://www.linkedin.com/company/intelligent-computing-solutions https://twitter.com/ICSIL From: Andy Trimmell via Af af@afmug.com To: af@afmug.com Sent: Monday, October 20, 2014 12:28:23 PM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons The real question is why pay for the 450 when the ePMP does the same thing if not better for the price point. From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett via Af Sent: Monday, October 20, 2014 1:24 PM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons Well no not on existing hardware, but it doesn't look like PMP450 can do that either. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL https://plus.google.com/+IntelligentComputingSolutionsDeKalb https://www.linkedin.com/company/intelligent-computing-solutions https://twitter.com/ICSIL From: Ken Hohhof via Af af@afmug.com To: af@afmug.com Sent: Monday, October 20, 2014 12:22:39 PM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons On the existing hardware? At one time there were hints about 256QAM and 40MHz channels, hence the GigE interface on the AP. They delivered on 256QAM, I haven’t heard about 40 MHz in awhile, I doubt 80 MHz is under consideration. Also they needed a lot of firmware optimization to get throughput to a single SM up to what the RF can do now. So I’d guess even 100 Mbps to a single SM would take new hardware. From: Mike Hammett via Af mailto:af@afmug.com Sent: Monday, October 20, 2014 12:13 PM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons Well the Mimosa will deliver 620 megabits or so to two clients at the same time, so 1,200+ total from one AP. How much room is there for growth in 450? *shrugs* How long has it been out and how much growth have you seen thus far? - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL https://plus.google.com/+IntelligentComputingSolutionsDeKalb https://www.linkedin.com/company/intelligent-computing-solutions https://twitter.com/ICSIL From: Craig Schmaderer via Af af@afmug.com To: af@afmug.com Sent: Monday, October 20, 2014 12:10:16 PM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons Is the 450 still only 20mhz and under? If they even can or do up it to like 80mhz like mimosa is going to do, how close could the 450 get to 600meg cap with just firmware upgrades? Any guesses? Craig R. Schmaderer CEO | Skywave Wireless, Inc. Ph: 402-372-1975 | Fax: 402-372-1058 Direct: 402-372-1052 From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett via Af Sent: Monday, October 20, 2014 10:25 AM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons I'm just glad to have fewer steps. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com From: Josh Reynolds via Af af@afmug.com To: af@afmug.com Sent: Monday, October 20, 2014 1:36:26 AM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons The whole point of their waveguide idea was to remove the jumper loss. Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com On 10/19/2014 10:06 PM, Ken Hohhof via Af wrote: Maybe RF Elements is onto something with their waveguide port radios, extend using low loss elliptical waveguide and put the radios inside a nice building or enclosure on the ground away from the lighting. From: Paul McCall via Af mailto:af@afmug.com Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 4:42 PM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons For us, the biggest issue is the replacement cost of the 450. NOT the initial cost, that is what it is, but we are in the lightning capital of the world. Sometimes we can repair everything that gets hit and sometimes on a direct strike, we can’t repair any of it. On most towers, we deploy 5 Ghz and 2.4 Ghz, so 8 APs each. Some are only one frequency band, so then there are only 4. Say
Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons
Oh. I was a little late and no one brought it up to me when I asked if anything excited was announced... unless it's not exciting. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com - Original Message - From: Paul Conlin via Af af@afmug.com To: af@afmug.com Sent: Monday, October 20, 2014 1:41:56 PM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons Cambium event last Monday. 455 is likely to be what they use for the new 900 variant. PC Blaze Broadband On October 20, 2014 2:34:02 PM EDT, Mike Hammett via Af af@afmug.com wrote: Where is all of this 455 stuff coming from? I didn't hear anything of it out in Vegas. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com - Original Message - From: Paul Conlin via Af af@afmug.com To: af@afmug.com Sent: Monday, October 20, 2014 1:29:14 PM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons Oh, and an ARM coprocessor to go along with the FPGA. Forgot that little detail. PC Blaze Broadband On October 20, 2014 1:38:58 PM EDT, Paul Conlin via Af af@afmug.com wrote: blockquote Yes, as I understand it. Bigger CPU and also an improved RF front end. Don’t worry, they are insistent it will leave no 450SM behind. I’m thinking the 450AP will be phased out, however. PC Blaze Broadband From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Bill Prince via Af Sent: Monday, October 20, 2014 1:31 PM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons At some point (soon?) the 450 SM needs a processor boost. Is that what the PMP455 is all about? bp On 10/20/2014 10:24 AM, Mike Hammett via Af wrote: blockquote Well no not on existing hardware, but it doesn't look like PMP450 can do that either. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com - Original Message - From: Ken Hohhof via Af af@afmug.com To: af@afmug.com Sent: Monday, October 20, 2014 12:22:39 PM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons On the existing hardware? At one time there were hints about 256QAM and 40MHz channels, hence the GigE interface on the AP. They delivered on 256QAM, I haven’t heard about 40 MHz in awhile, I doubt 80 MHz is under consideration. Also they needed a lot of firmware optimization to get throughput to a single SM up to what the RF can do now. So I’d guess even 100 Mbps to a single SM would take new hardware. From: Mike Hammett via Af Sent: Monday, October 20, 2014 12:13 PM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons Well the Mimosa will deliver 620 megabits or so to two clients at the same time, so 1,200+ total from one AP. How much room is there for growth in 450? *shrugs* How long has it been out and how much growth have you seen thus far? - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com - Original Message - From: Craig Schmaderer via Af af@afmug.com To: af@afmug.com Sent: Monday, October 20, 2014 12:10:16 PM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons Is the 450 still only 20mhz and under? If they even can or do up it to like 80mhz like mimosa is going to do, how close could the 450 get to 600meg cap with just firmware upgrades? Any guesses? Craig R. Schmaderer CEO | Skywave Wireless, Inc. Ph: 402-372-1975 | Fax: 402-372-1058 Direct: 402-372-1052 From: Af [ mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com ] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett via Af Sent: Monday, October 20, 2014 10:25 AM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons I'm just glad to have fewer steps. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com From: Josh Reynolds via Af af@afmug.com To: af@afmug.com Sent: Monday, October 20, 2014 1:36:26 AM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons The whole point of their waveguide idea was to remove the jumper loss. Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com On 10/19/2014 10:06 PM, Ken Hohhof via Af wrote: blockquote Maybe RF Elements is onto something with their waveguide port radios, extend using low loss elliptical waveguide and put the radios inside a nice building or enclosure on the ground away from the lighting. From: Paul McCall via Af Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 4:42 PM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons For us, the biggest issue is the replacement cost of the 450. NOT the initial cost, that is what it is, but we are in the lightning capital of the world. Sometimes we can repair everything that gets hit and sometimes on a direct strike, we can’t repair any of it. On most towers, we deploy 5 Ghz and 2.4 Ghz, so 8 APs each. Some are only one frequency band, so then there are only 4. Say those 4 APs are supporting 50 customers at $ 45 each… $ 2250 / month. (most towers
Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons
I like your approach that tools are tools and they do what they do, and let’s look at them all and make unemotional business decisions. There’s a certain value to buying/stocking/supporting one model or brand. For example, I have a lot of DeWalt 20V battery operated tools, so it makes sense to buy more DeWalt tools if there’s only a slight advantage to the Milwaukee or Makita or Bosch or whatever. But that’s a practical decision. If there’s a significant difference, I can deal with another set of batteries and chargers. Let’s leave the “Mac vs PC” or “Chevy vs Ford” stuff for the consumer market. We are running businesses. We can’t get emotional about what brand radios we use. To quote the Rolling Stones on the power of brand advertising: When I'm watching my TV And a man comes on that tells me How white my shirts can be But he can't be a man 'cause he doesn't smoke The same cigarettes as me From: Rory Conaway via Af Sent: Monday, October 20, 2014 1:41 PM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons The 450 is processor limited but really, upgrading the processor and coming out with newer firmware doesn’t mean a full forklift. However, the clients also have some horsepower limitations. The tradeoff though, is better masking. There are some directions to go here because of the better radio but it’s going to take 2-3 years to make that happen. Rory From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett via Af Sent: Monday, October 20, 2014 10:30 AM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons Them's fightin words to a lot of people around these parts. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com From: Andy Trimmell via Af af@afmug.com To: af@afmug.com Sent: Monday, October 20, 2014 12:28:23 PM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons The real question is why pay for the 450 when the ePMP does the same thing if not better for the price point. From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett via Af Sent: Monday, October 20, 2014 1:24 PM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons Well no not on existing hardware, but it doesn't look like PMP450 can do that either. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com From: Ken Hohhof via Af af@afmug.com To: af@afmug.com Sent: Monday, October 20, 2014 12:22:39 PM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons On the existing hardware? At one time there were hints about 256QAM and 40MHz channels, hence the GigE interface on the AP. They delivered on 256QAM, I haven’t heard about 40 MHz in awhile, I doubt 80 MHz is under consideration. Also they needed a lot of firmware optimization to get throughput to a single SM up to what the RF can do now. So I’d guess even 100 Mbps to a single SM would take new hardware. From: Mike Hammett via Af Sent: Monday, October 20, 2014 12:13 PM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons Well the Mimosa will deliver 620 megabits or so to two clients at the same time, so 1,200+ total from one AP. How much room is there for growth in 450? *shrugs* How long has it been out and how much growth have you seen thus far? - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com From: Craig Schmaderer via Af af@afmug.com To: af@afmug.com Sent: Monday, October 20, 2014 12:10:16 PM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons Is the 450 still only 20mhz and under? If they even can or do up it to like 80mhz like mimosa is going to do, how close could the 450 get to 600meg cap with just firmware upgrades? Any guesses? Craig R. Schmaderer CEO | Skywave Wireless, Inc. Ph: 402-372-1975 | Fax: 402-372-1058 Direct: 402-372-1052 From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett via Af Sent: Monday, October 20, 2014 10:25 AM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons I'm just glad to have fewer steps. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com From: Josh Reynolds via Af af@afmug.com To: af@afmug.com Sent: Monday, October 20, 2014 1:36:26 AM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons The whole point of their waveguide idea was to remove the jumper loss. Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com On 10/19/2014 10:06 PM, Ken Hohhof via Af wrote: Maybe RF Elements is onto something with their waveguide port radios, extend using low loss elliptical waveguide and put the radios inside a nice building or enclosure
Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons
Sounds like an old Pontiac V8. From: Paul Conlin via Af Sent: Monday, October 20, 2014 1:41 PM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons Cambium event last Monday. 455 is likely to be what they use for the new 900 variant. PC Blaze Broadband On October 20, 2014 2:34:02 PM EDT, Mike Hammett via Af af@afmug.com wrote: Where is all of this 455 stuff coming from? I didn't hear anything of it out in Vegas. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com -- From: Paul Conlin via Af af@afmug.com To: af@afmug.com Sent: Monday, October 20, 2014 1:29:14 PM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons Oh, and an ARM coprocessor to go along with the FPGA. Forgot that little detail. PC Blaze Broadband On October 20, 2014 1:38:58 PM EDT, Paul Conlin via Af af@afmug.com wrote: Yes, as I understand it. Bigger CPU and also an improved RF front end. Don’t worry, they are insistent it will leave no 450SM behind. I’m thinking the 450AP will be phased out, however. PC Blaze Broadband From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Bill Prince via Af Sent: Monday, October 20, 2014 1:31 PM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons At some point (soon?) the 450 SM needs a processor boost. Is that what the PMP455 is all about? bp On 10/20/2014 10:24 AM, Mike Hammett via Af wrote: Well no not on existing hardware, but it doesn't look like PMP450 can do that either. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com -- From: Ken Hohhof via Af mailto:af@afmug.com To: af@afmug.com Sent: Monday, October 20, 2014 12:22:39 PM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons On the existing hardware? At one time there were hints about 256QAM and 40MHz channels, hence the GigE interface on the AP. They delivered on 256QAM, I haven’t heard about 40 MHz in awhile, I doubt 80 MHz is under consideration. Also they needed a lot of firmware optimization to get throughput to a single SM up to what the RF can do now. So I’d guess even 100 Mbps to a single SM would take new hardware. From: Mike Hammett via Af Sent: Monday, October 20, 2014 12:13 PM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons Well the Mimosa will deliver 620 megabits or so to two clients at the same time, so 1,200+ total from one AP. How much room is there for growth in 450? *shrugs* How long has it been out and how much growth have you seen thus far? - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com -- From: Craig Schmaderer via Af mailto:af@afmug.com To: af@afmug.com Sent: Monday, October 20, 2014 12:10:16 PM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons Is the 450 still only 20mhz and under? If they even can or do up it to like 80mhz like mimosa is going to do, how close could the 450 get to 600meg cap with just firmware upgrades? Any guesses? Craig R. Schmaderer CEO | Skywave Wireless, Inc. Ph: 402-372-1975 | Fax: 402-372-1058 Direct: 402-372-1052 From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett via Af Sent: Monday, October 20, 2014 10:25 AM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons I'm just glad to have fewer steps. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com -- From: Josh Reynolds via Af af@afmug.com To: af@afmug.com Sent: Monday, October 20, 2014 1:36:26 AM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons The whole point of their waveguide idea was to remove the jumper loss. Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com On 10/19/2014 10:06 PM, Ken Hohhof via Af wrote: Maybe RF Elements is onto something with their waveguide port radios, extend using low loss elliptical waveguide and put the radios inside a nice building or enclosure on the ground away from the lighting. From: Paul McCall via Af Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 4:42 PM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons For us, the biggest issue is the replacement cost of the 450. NOT the initial cost, that is what it is, but we are in the lightning capital of the world. Sometimes we can repair everything that gets
Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons
Entirely not true spoken by a WISP that has up until this point used Mikrotik and Ubiquiti in rural and suburban markets with 12 WISP competitors. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com - Original Message - From: Mark Radabaugh via Af af@afmug.com To: af@afmug.com Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 3:52:03 PM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons And now your completely out of spectrum and can't deploy anything new. I suppose the good part for you is nobody else can do anything given the amount of noise your making. Mark On 10/18/14, 1:27 PM, Josh Reynolds via Af wrote: You just hit the nail on the head why we have never considered deploying 450 (and similar ) in the past: By the time you (relative term) have the cashflow to pay for those sectors, we (another relative term , for people deploying UBNT or similar) have already thrown up 4-6 shielded sectors and at least 10 clients per. If we don' t think we can hit a decent sub density or at least make the site a valuable repeater, then we don't go there. Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com On 10/18/2014 09:01 AM, Kurt Fankhauser via Af wrote: blockquote I prefer sectors too but math doesnt always work out. I'll put the omni in to get the site up and once the customers are there change it to sectors. The 450 platform is very easy to drop sectors in and have the existing clients link right up. I have a couple sites with existing customers i am dropping a two sector 450 system in with 120 segree KP antennas. cant afford any more sectors than that per site right now... Sent from my iPhone Kurt Fankhauser Wavelinc Communications P.O. Box 126 Bucyrus, OH 44820 http://www.wavelinc.com tel. 419-562-6405 fax. 419-617-0110 On Oct 18, 2014, at 11:21 AM, Mike Hammett via Af af@afmug.com wrote: blockquote I've noticed a lot of PMP operators are deploying omnis (presumably because they can't afford 4 APs. Give me TDMA Atheros with sectors over omnis on anything any day. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com - Original Message - From: Kurt Fankhauser via Af af@afmug.com To: af@afmug.com Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 8:38:14 AM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons TJ, No difference between the 3 different frequencies bands (other than NLOS range) as far as the product itself they are all the same animal. 2.4ghz NLOS is slightly better than 3.65ghhz. They all function the same and have the same expected throughputs per channel width. They all use the same firmware and i love the interface being the same across all 3. The only major difference is the 5ghz is V/H versus slant on the other two. That just translates to the 5ghz omni being ALOT smaller and lighter. There are some places that i wish the 2.4ghz woulda been V/H because of the omni size but overall I am still very happy with the 2.4ghz 450. Kurt Fankhauser Wavelinc Communications P.O. Box 126 Bucyrus, OH 44820 http://www.wavelinc.com tel. 419-562-6405 fax. 419-617-0110 On Sat, Oct 18, 2014 at 4:57 AM, TJ Trout via Af af@afmug.com wrote: blockquote Kurt, Any pros and cons on 450 between 2ghz, 3.65 and 5? Any differences at all? Range vs throughput? Obviously 2ghz penetrates better, 3 is licensed and 5 has more spectrum but anything else? All bands are open for me Thanks On Fri, Oct 17, 2014 at 11:20 PM, Kurt Fankhauser via Af af@afmug.com wrote: blockquote I started the spring deploying 450 in 2.4ghz, 5ghz, and 3.65ghz and then middle of the summer deciding i had totry some ePMP because the cost was so low I couldn't resist I can say now that I am fairly certain I will probably stick with the 450. There are many small reasons that when I considered them all i came to this conclusion. Here are my reasons: 1. ePMP latency starts to go up quickly once you have more than 10 clients on an AP. Once you get over 20 clients the latency is pretty much 25-30 ms. Cambium was honest about this at the road tour and they noted if you want the best latency to stick with the 450. 2. Sync between the two platforms is not there yet. If you have adjacent towers on the different platforms that can see each other you won't have sync. 3. No remote spectrum analyzer for clients. This is HUGE for when the clients fire up their wireless camera and baby monitors and trash the whole spectrum. 4.No burst bucket on CPE's 5.EPMP Interface is SLOWWW. Cambium explained at the tour they were offloading alot of processing power to the PC you are viewing the interface with and i can't be taking a quad core machine up a tower to work on these radios and do site surveys. I am working with a Panasonic Toughbook and takes FOREVER to log into the EPMP radios. 6. Fore some reason site surveys are a PITA with ePMP. Think its a combination of many factors
Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons
It eliminates the need for sectors... by having four sectors in one enclosure. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com - Original Message - From: Rory Conaway via Af af@afmug.com To: af@afmug.com Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 12:48:06 AM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons We keep our residential home deployments down to about ½ mile or less. We figure that’s good for about 50 users with 20MHz channels with on Rocket 5Ms and about 60-70Mbps capacity. I might change to Ubiquiti Rocket AC radios when they get a stable PTMP firmware assuming it’s done by early next year. If it’s delayed further than 1 st quarter, I will probably wait to evaluate Mimosa’s A5-360 . That bad boy can support up to 1Gbps with 802.11ac clients which pretty much eliminates the need for sectors unless you have a down-tilt or range issue. Even the gain on that antenna is 18dBi which is more than sufficient for DFS channels. Rory From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Josh Reynolds via Af Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 10:08 PM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons If we lived in an area where things were flat, you might be right. We're full of hills and valleys, mountains and glaciers. ... but we're not flat, and Rory is doing similar things in his environment by using low-to-the-ground microcells and using the residential structures to create an urban canyon effect. Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com On 10/18/2014 01:52 PM, Mark Radabaugh via Af wrote: And now your completely out of spectrum and can't deploy anything new. I suppose the good part for you is nobody else can do anything given the amount of noise your making. Mark On 10/18/14, 1:27 PM, Josh Reynolds via Af wrote: blockquote You just hit the nail on the head why we have never considered deploying 450 (and similar) in the past: By the time you (relative term) have the cashflow to pay for those sectors, we (another relative term, for people deploying UBNT or similar) have already thrown up 4-6 shielded sectors and at least 10 clients per. If we don' t think we can hit a decent sub density or at least make the site a valuable repeater, then we don't go there. Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com On 10/18/2014 09:01 AM, Kurt Fankhauser via Af wrote: blockquote I prefer sectors too but math doesnt always work out. I'll put the omni in to get the site up and once the customers are there change it to sectors. The 450 platform is very easy to drop sectors in and have the existing clients link right up. I have a couple sites with existing customers i am dropping a two sector 450 system in with 120 segree KP antennas. cant afford any more sectors than that per site right now... Sent from my iPhone Kurt Fankhauser Wavelinc Communications P.O. Box 126 Bucyrus, OH 44820 http://www.wavelinc.com tel. 419-562-6405 fax. 419-617-0110 On Oct 18, 2014, at 11:21 AM, Mike Hammett via Af af@afmug.com wrote: blockquote I've noticed a lot of PMP operators are deploying omnis (presumably because they can't afford 4 APs. Give me TDMA Atheros with sectors over omnis on anything any day. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com - Original Message - From: Kurt Fankhauser via Af af@afmug.com To: af@afmug.com Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 8:38:14 AM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons TJ, No difference between the 3 different frequencies bands (other than NLOS range) as far as the product itself they are all the same animal. 2.4ghz NLOS is slightly better than 3.65ghhz. They all function the same and have the same expected throughputs per channel width. They all use the same firmware and i love the interface being the same across all 3. The only major difference is the 5ghz is V/H versus slant on the other two. That just translates to the 5ghz omni being ALOT smaller and lighter. There are some places that i wish the 2.4ghz woulda been V/H because of the omni size but overall I am still very happy with the 2.4ghz 450. Kurt Fankhauser Wavelinc Communications P.O. Box 126 Bucyrus, OH 44820 http://www.wavelinc.com tel. 419-562-6405 fax. 419-617-0110 On Sat, Oct 18, 2014 at 4:57 AM, TJ Trout via Af af@afmug.com wrote: Kurt, Any pros and cons on 450 between 2ghz, 3.65 and 5? Any differences at all? Range vs throughput? Obviously 2ghz penetrates better, 3 is licensed and 5 has more spectrum but anything else? All bands are open for me Thanks On Fri, Oct 17, 2014 at 11:20 PM, Kurt Fankhauser via Af af@afmug.com wrote: I started the spring deploying 450 in 2.4ghz, 5ghz, and 3.65ghz and then middle of the summer deciding i had totry some ePMP because the cost was so low I couldn't resist I can say now
Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons
The network I bought is a prime example of using Canopy doesn't guarantee success. Omnis everywhere, Omnis feeding SMs with other omnis behind them. $12k backhauls behind a backhaul link with a -87 signal. Generic (not even Linksys) networking gear, hubs, etc. But hey, he used Cyclones, PTP400s and Redlines so it was good, right? - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com - Original Message - From: Ken Hohhof via Af af@afmug.com To: af@afmug.com Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 1:15:38 PM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons But there’s the stages of where WISPs have historically gotten their customers: 1) People getting Internet for the first time 2) People switching from dialup 3) People switching from DSL 4) People switching from satellite 5) People switching from mobile hotspots 6) People switching from other WISPs who did things on the cheap I guess stage 7 would be deploy fiber and drink everybody’s milkshake. From: Josh Reynolds via Af Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 12:27 PM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons You just hit the nail on the head why we have never considered deploying 450 (and similar ) in the past: By the time you (relative term) have the cashflow to pay for those sectors, we (another relative term , for people deploying UBNT or similar) have already thrown up 4-6 shielded sectors and at least 10 clients per. If we don' t think we can hit a decent sub density or at least make the site a valuable repeater, then we don't go there. Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com On 10/18/2014 09:01 AM, Kurt Fankhauser via Af wrote: I prefer sectors too but math doesnt always work out. I'll put the omni in to get the site up and once the customers are there change it to sectors. The 450 platform is very easy to drop sectors in and have the existing clients link right up. I have a couple sites with existing customers i am dropping a two sector 450 system in with 120 segree KP antennas. cant afford any more sectors than that per site right now... Sent from my iPhone Kurt Fankhauser Wavelinc Communications P.O. Box 126 Bucyrus, OH 44820 http://www.wavelinc.com tel. 419-562-6405 fax. 419-617-0110 On Oct 18, 2014, at 11:21 AM, Mike Hammett via Af af@afmug.com wrote: blockquote I've noticed a lot of PMP operators are deploying omnis (presumably because they can't afford 4 APs. Give me TDMA Atheros with sectors over omnis on anything any day. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com - Original Message - From: Kurt Fankhauser via Af af@afmug.com To: af@afmug.com Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 8:38:14 AM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons TJ, No difference between the 3 different frequencies bands (other than NLOS range) as far as the product itself they are all the same animal. 2.4ghz NLOS is slightly better than 3.65ghhz. They all function the same and have the same expected throughputs per channel width. They all use the same firmware and i love the interface being the same across all 3. The only major difference is the 5ghz is V/H versus slant on the other two. That just translates to the 5ghz omni being ALOT smaller and lighter. There are some places that i wish the 2.4ghz woulda been V/H because of the omni size but overall I am still very happy with the 2.4ghz 450. Kurt Fankhauser Wavelinc Communications P.O. Box 126 Bucyrus, OH 44820 http://www.wavelinc.com tel. 419-562-6405 fax. 419-617-0110 On Sat, Oct 18, 2014 at 4:57 AM, TJ Trout via Af af@afmug.com wrote: blockquote Kurt, Any pros and cons on 450 between 2ghz, 3.65 and 5? Any differences at all? Range vs throughput? Obviously 2ghz penetrates better, 3 is licensed and 5 has more spectrum but anything else? All bands are open for me Thanks On Fri, Oct 17, 2014 at 11:20 PM, Kurt Fankhauser via Af af@afmug.com wrote: blockquote I started the spring deploying 450 in 2.4ghz, 5ghz, and 3.65ghz and then middle of the summer deciding i had totry some ePMP because the cost was so low I couldn't resist I can say now that I am fairly certain I will probably stick with the 450. There are many small reasons that when I considered them all i came to this conclusion. Here are my reasons: 1. ePMP latency starts to go up quickly once you have more than 10 clients on an AP. Once you get over 20 clients the latency is pretty much 25-30 ms. Cambium was honest about this at the road tour and they noted if you want the best latency to stick with the 450. 2. Sync between the two platforms is not there yet. If you have adjacent towers on the different platforms that can see each other you won't have sync. 3. No remote spectrum analyzer for clients. This is HUGE for when the clients fire up their wireless camera and baby monitors
Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons
Four GPS ePMPs with 90* sectors is $2,260. One PMP450 AP without antenna is $2,316. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com - Original Message - From: Kurt Fankhauser via Af af@afmug.com To: af@afmug.com Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 11:23:00 AM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons Huh? are you putting the cheap connectorized CPE on them or the $500 gps sync AP on them? Sent from my iPhone Kurt Fankhauser Wavelinc Communications P.O. Box 126 Bucyrus, OH 44820 http://www.wavelinc.com tel. 419-562-6405 fax. 419-617-0110 On Oct 18, 2014, at 12:04 PM, Mike Hammett via Af af@afmug.com wrote: The four sectors are still cheaper than one 450 on an omni. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com - Original Message - From: Ken Hohhof via Af af@afmug.com To: af@afmug.com Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 10:41:32 AM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons Which problem is easier to fix? You deployed an omni and take rate has been phenomenal and you need more capacity? Or you deployed 4 sectors and only have 5 subs between them? Well, I guess the second one, if the answer is decommission the site and redeploy the equipment. From: Tyler Treat via Af Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 10:28 AM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons Afford/justify. Either way I pretty much agree. And I was an omni fanboy. ___ Mangled by my iPhone. ___ Tyler Treat Corn Belt Technologies, Inc. tyler.tr...@cornbelttech.com ___ On Oct 18, 2014, at 10:21 AM, Mike Hammett via Af af@afmug.com wrote: blockquote I've noticed a lot of PMP operators are deploying omnis (presumably because they can't afford 4 APs. Give me TDMA Atheros with sectors over omnis on anything any day. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com - Original Message - From: Kurt Fankhauser via Af af@afmug.com To: af@afmug.com Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 8:38:14 AM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons TJ, No difference between the 3 different frequencies bands (other than NLOS range) as far as the product itself they are all the same animal. 2.4ghz NLOS is slightly better than 3.65ghhz. They all function the same and have the same expected throughputs per channel width. They all use the same firmware and i love the interface being the same across all 3. The only major difference is the 5ghz is V/H versus slant on the other two. That just translates to the 5ghz omni being ALOT smaller and lighter. There are some places that i wish the 2.4ghz woulda been V/H because of the omni size but overall I am still very happy with the 2.4ghz 450. Kurt Fankhauser Wavelinc Communications P.O. Box 126 Bucyrus, OH 44820 http://www.wavelinc.com tel. 419-562-6405 fax. 419-617-0110 On Sat, Oct 18, 2014 at 4:57 AM, TJ Trout via Af af@afmug.com wrote: blockquote Kurt, Any pros and cons on 450 between 2ghz, 3.65 and 5? Any differences at all? Range vs throughput? Obviously 2ghz penetrates better, 3 is licensed and 5 has more spectrum but anything else? All bands are open for me Thanks On Fri, Oct 17, 2014 at 11:20 PM, Kurt Fankhauser via Af af@afmug.com wrote: blockquote I started the spring deploying 450 in 2.4ghz, 5ghz, and 3.65ghz and then middle of the summer deciding i had totry some ePMP because the cost was so low I couldn't resist I can say now that I am fairly certain I will probably stick with the 450. There are many small reasons that when I considered them all i came to this conclusion. Here are my reasons: 1. ePMP latency starts to go up quickly once you have more than 10 clients on an AP. Once you get over 20 clients the latency is pretty much 25-30 ms. Cambium was honest about this at the road tour and they noted if you want the best latency to stick with the 450. 2. Sync between the two platforms is not there yet. If you have adjacent towers on the different platforms that can see each other you won't have sync. 3. No remote spectrum analyzer for clients. This is HUGE for when the clients fire up their wireless camera and baby monitors and trash the whole spectrum. 4.No burst bucket on CPE's 5.EPMP Interface is SLOWWW. Cambium explained at the tour they were offloading alot of processing power to the PC you are viewing the interface with and i can't be taking a quad core machine up a tower to work on these radios and do site surveys. I am working with a Panasonic Toughbook and takes FOREVER to log into the EPMP radios. 6. Fore some reason site surveys are a PITA with ePMP. Think its a combination of many factors here... slow interface one of them... 7. EPMP in 5ghz DFS band has really low power output. Something like 13-14db. When using
Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons
On any network, sync is a better rf deployment solution than non sync. Gino A. Villarini @gvillarini On Oct 19, 2014, at 3:23 AM, Josh Reynolds via Af af@afmug.commailto:af@afmug.com wrote: I think many of you have gotten in a rut. You defend GPS sync like you don't know how operators can operate or compete without it, which is pretty lazy problem solving. It can be done, is being done, and will continue to be done. GPS sync is a very value tool. In some areas, it is virtually required to operate. In ours, it isn't. There are often may ways to skin the cat. I'm not saying the PMP450 and others aren't great products, they are. Great products can often be expensive though, and that drain on cashflow can often be harmful to small businesses if there is another method to solve a problem. Sometimes it's more efficient to use a shovel, not an excavator. Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.comhttp://www.spitwspots.com On 10/18/2014 10:15 PM, George Skorup (Cyber Broadcasting) via Af wrote: But I think you missed Mark's point, or maybe part of it. Synchronizing APs at the same site is also a very big benefit, not just geographic/multi-site. On 10/19/2014 12:07 AM, Josh Reynolds via Af wrote: If we lived in an area where things were flat, you might be right. We're full of hills and valleys, mountains and glaciers. ... but we're not flat, and Rory is doing similar things in his environment by using low-to-the-ground microcells and using the residential structures to create an urban canyon effect. Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.comhttp://www.spitwspots.com On 10/18/2014 01:52 PM, Mark Radabaugh via Af wrote: And now your completely out of spectrum and can't deploy anything new. I suppose the good part for you is nobody else can do anything given the amount of noise your making. Mark On 10/18/14, 1:27 PM, Josh Reynolds via Af wrote: You just hit the nail on the head why we have never considered deploying 450 (and similar) in the past: By the time you (relative term) have the cashflow to pay for those sectors, we (another relative term, for people deploying UBNT or similar) have already thrown up 4-6 shielded sectors and at least 10 clients per. If we don't think we can hit a decent sub density or at least make the site a valuable repeater, then we don't go there. Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.comhttp://www.spitwspots.com On 10/18/2014 09:01 AM, Kurt Fankhauser via Af wrote: I prefer sectors too but math doesnt always work out. I'll put the omni in to get the site up and once the customers are there change it to sectors. The 450 platform is very easy to drop sectors in and have the existing clients link right up. I have a couple sites with existing customers i am dropping a two sector 450 system in with 120 segree KP antennas. cant afford any more sectors than that per site right now... Sent from my iPhone Kurt Fankhauser Wavelinc Communications P.O. Box 126 Bucyrus, OH 44820 http://www.wavelinc.com tel. 419-562-6405 fax. 419-617-0110 On Oct 18, 2014, at 11:21 AM, Mike Hammett via Af af@afmug.commailto:af@afmug.com wrote: I've noticed a lot of PMP operators are deploying omnis (presumably because they can't afford 4 APs. Give me TDMA Atheros with sectors over omnis on anything any day. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com From: Kurt Fankhauser via Af af@afmug.commailto:af@afmug.com To: af@afmug.commailto:af@afmug.com Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 8:38:14 AM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons TJ, No difference between the 3 different frequencies bands (other than NLOS range) as far as the product itself they are all the same animal. 2.4ghz NLOS is slightly better than 3.65ghhz. They all function the same and have the same expected throughputs per channel width. They all use the same firmware and i love the interface being the same across all 3. The only major difference is the 5ghz is V/H versus slant on the other two. That just translates to the 5ghz omni being ALOT smaller and lighter. There are some places that i wish the 2.4ghz woulda been V/H because of the omni size but overall I am still very happy with the 2.4ghz 450. Kurt Fankhauser Wavelinc Communications P.O. Box 126 Bucyrus, OH 44820 http://www.wavelinc.comhttp://www.wavelinc.com/ tel. 419-562-6405 fax. 419-617-0110 On Sat, Oct 18, 2014 at 4:57 AM, TJ Trout via Af af@afmug.commailto:af@afmug.com wrote: Kurt, Any pros and cons on 450 between 2ghz, 3.65 and 5? Any differences at all? Range vs throughput? Obviously 2ghz penetrates better, 3 is licensed and 5 has more spectrum but anything else? All bands are open for me Thanks On Fri, Oct 17, 2014 at 11:20 PM, Kurt Fankhauser via Af af@afmug.commailto:af@afmug.com wrote: I started the spring deploying 450 in 2.4ghz, 5ghz, and 3.65ghz
Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons
Yea, didn’t know if that information violated the old NDA thing Rory From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett via Af Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 5:35 AM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons It eliminates the need for sectors... by having four sectors in one enclosure. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com From: Rory Conaway via Af af@afmug.com To: af@afmug.com Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 12:48:06 AM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons We keep our residential home deployments down to about ½ mile or less. We figure that’s good for about 50 users with 20MHz channels with on Rocket 5Ms and about 60-70Mbps capacity. I might change to Ubiquiti Rocket AC radios when they get a stable PTMP firmware assuming it’s done by early next year. If it’s delayed further than 1st quarter, I will probably wait to evaluate Mimosa’s A5-360 . That bad boy can support up to 1Gbps with 802.11ac clients which pretty much eliminates the need for sectors unless you have a down-tilt or range issue. Even the gain on that antenna is 18dBi which is more than sufficient for DFS channels. Rory From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Josh Reynolds via Af Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 10:08 PM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons If we lived in an area where things were flat, you might be right. We're full of hills and valleys, mountains and glaciers. ... but we're not flat, and Rory is doing similar things in his environment by using low-to-the-ground microcells and using the residential structures to create an urban canyon effect. Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com On 10/18/2014 01:52 PM, Mark Radabaugh via Af wrote: And now your completely out of spectrum and can't deploy anything new. I suppose the good part for you is nobody else can do anything given the amount of noise your making. Mark On 10/18/14, 1:27 PM, Josh Reynolds via Af wrote: You just hit the nail on the head why we have never considered deploying 450 (and similar) in the past: By the time you (relative term) have the cashflow to pay for those sectors, we (another relative term, for people deploying UBNT or similar) have already thrown up 4-6 shielded sectors and at least 10 clients per. If we don't think we can hit a decent sub density or at least make the site a valuable repeater, then we don't go there. Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com On 10/18/2014 09:01 AM, Kurt Fankhauser via Af wrote: I prefer sectors too but math doesnt always work out. I'll put the omni in to get the site up and once the customers are there change it to sectors. The 450 platform is very easy to drop sectors in and have the existing clients link right up. I have a couple sites with existing customers i am dropping a two sector 450 system in with 120 segree KP antennas. cant afford any more sectors than that per site right now... Sent from my iPhone Kurt Fankhauser Wavelinc Communications P.O. Box 126 Bucyrus, OH 44820 http://www.wavelinc.com tel. 419-562-6405 fax. 419-617-0110 On Oct 18, 2014, at 11:21 AM, Mike Hammett via Af af@afmug.com wrote: I've noticed a lot of PMP operators are deploying omnis (presumably because they can't afford 4 APs. Give me TDMA Atheros with sectors over omnis on anything any day. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com From: Kurt Fankhauser via Af af@afmug.com To: af@afmug.com Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 8:38:14 AM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons TJ, No difference between the 3 different frequencies bands (other than NLOS range) as far as the product itself they are all the same animal. 2.4ghz NLOS is slightly better than 3.65ghhz. They all function the same and have
Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons
I’m assuming all 12 WISPs cooperate with each other? Rory From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett via Af Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 5:33 AM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons Entirely not true spoken by a WISP that has up until this point used Mikrotik and Ubiquiti in rural and suburban markets with 12 WISP competitors. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com From: Mark Radabaugh via Af af@afmug.com To: af@afmug.com Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 3:52:03 PM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons And now your completely out of spectrum and can't deploy anything new. I suppose the good part for you is nobody else can do anything given the amount of noise your making. Mark On 10/18/14, 1:27 PM, Josh Reynolds via Af wrote: You just hit the nail on the head why we have never considered deploying 450 (and similar) in the past: By the time you (relative term) have the cashflow to pay for those sectors, we (another relative term, for people deploying UBNT or similar) have already thrown up 4-6 shielded sectors and at least 10 clients per. If we don't think we can hit a decent sub density or at least make the site a valuable repeater, then we don't go there. Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com On 10/18/2014 09:01 AM, Kurt Fankhauser via Af wrote: I prefer sectors too but math doesnt always work out. I'll put the omni in to get the site up and once the customers are there change it to sectors. The 450 platform is very easy to drop sectors in and have the existing clients link right up. I have a couple sites with existing customers i am dropping a two sector 450 system in with 120 segree KP antennas. cant afford any more sectors than that per site right now... Sent from my iPhone Kurt Fankhauser Wavelinc Communications P.O. Box 126 Bucyrus, OH 44820 http://www.wavelinc.com tel. 419-562-6405 fax. 419-617-0110 On Oct 18, 2014, at 11:21 AM, Mike Hammett via Af af@afmug.com wrote: I've noticed a lot of PMP operators are deploying omnis (presumably because they can't afford 4 APs. Give me TDMA Atheros with sectors over omnis on anything any day. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com From: Kurt Fankhauser via Af af@afmug.com To: af@afmug.com Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 8:38:14 AM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons TJ, No difference between the 3 different frequencies bands (other than NLOS range) as far as the product itself they are all the same animal. 2.4ghz NLOS is slightly better than 3.65ghhz. They all function the same and have the same expected throughputs per channel width. They all use the same firmware and i love the interface being the same across all 3. The only major difference is the 5ghz is V/H versus slant on the other two. That just translates to the 5ghz omni being ALOT smaller and lighter. There are some places that i wish the 2.4ghz woulda been V/H because of the omni size but overall I am still very happy with the 2.4ghz 450. Kurt Fankhauser Wavelinc Communications P.O. Box 126 Bucyrus, OH 44820 http://www.wavelinc.com http://www.wavelinc.com/ tel. 419-562-6405 fax. 419-617-0110 On Sat, Oct 18, 2014 at 4:57 AM, TJ Trout via Af af@afmug.com wrote: Kurt, Any pros and cons on 450 between 2ghz, 3.65 and 5? Any differences at all? Range vs throughput? Obviously 2ghz penetrates better, 3 is licensed and 5 has more spectrum but anything else? All bands are open for me Thanks On Fri, Oct 17, 2014 at 11:20 PM, Kurt Fankhauser via Af af@afmug.com wrote: I started the spring deploying 450 in 2.4ghz, 5ghz, and 3.65ghz and then middle
Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons
Which then makes it not that valuable. I think Beam-Forming has more value. Rory From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett via Af Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 8:29 AM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons Half or more have the same Canopy settings. The rest are 802.11 based with some cooperating and some not responding to anything. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com From: Rory Conaway via Af af@afmug.com To: af@afmug.com Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 10:13:45 AM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons I’m assuming all 12 WISPs cooperate with each other? Rory From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett via Af Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 5:33 AM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons Entirely not true spoken by a WISP that has up until this point used Mikrotik and Ubiquiti in rural and suburban markets with 12 WISP competitors. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com From: Mark Radabaugh via Af af@afmug.com To: af@afmug.com Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 3:52:03 PM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons And now your completely out of spectrum and can't deploy anything new. I suppose the good part for you is nobody else can do anything given the amount of noise your making. Mark On 10/18/14, 1:27 PM, Josh Reynolds via Af wrote: You just hit the nail on the head why we have never considered deploying 450 (and similar) in the past: By the time you (relative term) have the cashflow to pay for those sectors, we (another relative term, for people deploying UBNT or similar) have already thrown up 4-6 shielded sectors and at least 10 clients per. If we don't think we can hit a decent sub density or at least make the site a valuable repeater, then we don't go there. Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com On 10/18/2014 09:01 AM, Kurt Fankhauser via Af wrote: I prefer sectors too but math doesnt always work out. I'll put the omni in to get the site up and once the customers are there change it to sectors. The 450 platform is very easy to drop sectors in and have the existing clients link right up. I have a couple sites with existing customers i am dropping a two sector 450 system in with 120 segree KP antennas. cant afford any more sectors than that per site right now... Sent from my iPhone Kurt Fankhauser Wavelinc Communications P.O. Box 126 Bucyrus, OH 44820 http://www.wavelinc.com tel. 419-562-6405 fax. 419-617-0110 On Oct 18, 2014, at 11:21 AM, Mike Hammett via Af af@afmug.com wrote: I've noticed a lot of PMP operators are deploying omnis (presumably because they can't afford 4 APs. Give me TDMA Atheros with sectors over omnis on anything any day. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com From: Kurt Fankhauser via Af af@afmug.com To: af@afmug.com Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 8:38:14 AM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons TJ, No difference between the 3 different frequencies bands (other than NLOS range) as far as the product itself they are all the same animal. 2.4ghz NLOS is slightly better than 3.65ghhz. They all function the same and have the same expected throughputs per channel width. They all use the same firmware and i love the interface being the same across all 3. The only major difference is the 5ghz is V/H versus slant on the other two. That just translates to the 5ghz omni being ALOT smaller and lighter. There are some places that i wish the 2.4ghz woulda been V/H because of the omni size but overall I am still very happy with the 2.4ghz 450. Kurt Fankhauser Wavelinc Communications P.O. Box 126 Bucyrus, OH 44820 http://www.wavelinc.com http://www.wavelinc.com/ tel. 419-562-6405 fax. 419-617-0110
Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons
I’ve lost track of what I can and can’t say anymore. “I say Nothing, I jsee Nothing! -Sergeant Schultz From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett via Af Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 8:28 AM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons I was told that at the booth, so I'm assuming its clear. There's also a hint to that in the specs on the web site, Polarization4 Panels, Alternating Polarization. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com From: Rory Conaway via Af af@afmug.com To: af@afmug.com Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 10:07:54 AM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons Yea, didn’t know if that information violated the old NDA thing Rory From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett via Af Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 5:35 AM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons It eliminates the need for sectors... by having four sectors in one enclosure. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com From: Rory Conaway via Af af@afmug.com To: af@afmug.com Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 12:48:06 AM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons We keep our residential home deployments down to about ½ mile or less. We figure that’s good for about 50 users with 20MHz channels with on Rocket 5Ms and about 60-70Mbps capacity. I might change to Ubiquiti Rocket AC radios when they get a stable PTMP firmware assuming it’s done by early next year. If it’s delayed further than 1st quarter, I will probably wait to evaluate Mimosa’s A5-360 . That bad boy can support up to 1Gbps with 802.11ac clients which pretty much eliminates the need for sectors unless you have a down-tilt or range issue. Even the gain on that antenna is 18dBi which is more than sufficient for DFS channels. Rory From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Josh Reynolds via Af Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 10:08 PM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons If we lived in an area where things were flat, you might be right. We're full of hills and valleys, mountains and glaciers. ... but we're not flat, and Rory is doing similar things in his environment by using low-to-the-ground microcells and using the residential structures to create an urban canyon effect. Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com On 10/18/2014 01:52 PM, Mark Radabaugh via Af wrote: And now your completely out of spectrum and can't deploy anything new. I suppose the good part for you is nobody else can do anything given the amount of noise your making. Mark On 10/18/14, 1:27 PM, Josh Reynolds via Af wrote: You just hit the nail on the head why we have never considered deploying 450 (and similar) in the past: By the time you (relative term) have the cashflow to pay for those sectors, we (another relative term, for people deploying UBNT or similar) have already thrown up 4-6 shielded sectors and at least 10 clients per. If we don't think we can hit a decent sub density or at least make the site a valuable repeater, then we don't go there. Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com On 10/18/2014 09:01 AM, Kurt Fankhauser via Af wrote: I prefer sectors too but math doesnt always work out. I'll put the omni in to get the site up and once the customers are there change it to sectors. The 450 platform is very easy to drop sectors in and have the existing clients link right up. I have a couple sites with existing customers i am dropping a two sector 450 system in with 120 segree KP antennas. cant afford any more sectors than that per site right now... Sent from my iPhone Kurt Fankhauser Wavelinc Communications P.O. Box 126 Bucyrus, OH 44820 http://www.wavelinc.com tel. 419-562-6405 fax. 419-617-0110 On Oct 18, 2014, at 11:21 AM, Mike Hammett via Af af@afmug.com wrote: I've noticed a lot of PMP operators are deploying omnis (presumably because they can't afford 4 APs. Give me TDMA Atheros with sectors over omnis on anything any day. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics
Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons
You lost me, Rory... - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com - Original Message - From: Rory Conaway via Af af@afmug.com To: af@afmug.com Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 10:35:08 AM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons Which then makes it not that valuable. I think Beam-Forming has more value. Rory From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett via Af Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 8:29 AM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons Half or more have the same Canopy settings. The rest are 802.11 based with some cooperating and some not responding to anything. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com - Original Message - From: Rory Conaway via Af af@afmug.com To: af@afmug.com Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 10:13:45 AM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons I’m assuming all 12 WISPs cooperate with each other? Rory From: Af [ mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com ] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett via Af Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 5:33 AM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons Entirely not true spoken by a WISP that has up until this point used Mikrotik and Ubiquiti in rural and suburban markets with 12 WISP competitors. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com From: Mark Radabaugh via Af af@afmug.com To: af@afmug.com Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 3:52:03 PM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons And now your completely out of spectrum and can't deploy anything new. I suppose the good part for you is nobody else can do anything given the amount of noise your making. Mark On 10/18/14, 1:27 PM, Josh Reynolds via Af wrote: You just hit the nail on the head why we have never considered deploying 450 (and similar ) in the past: By the time you (relative term) have the cashflow to pay for those sectors, we (another relative term, for people deploying UBNT or similar) have already thrown up 4-6 shielded sectors and at least 10 clients per. If we don' t think we can hit a decent sub density or at least make the site a valuable repeater, then we don't go there. Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com On 10/18/2014 09:01 AM, Kurt Fankhauser via Af wrote: blockquote I prefer sectors too but math doesnt always work out. I'll put the omni in to get the site up and once the customers are there change it to sectors. The 450 platform is very easy to drop sectors in and have the existing clients link right up. I have a couple sites with existing customers i am dropping a two sector 450 system in with 120 segree KP antennas. cant afford any more sectors than that per site right now... Sent from my iPhone Kurt Fankhauser Wavelinc Communications P.O. Box 126 Bucyrus, OH 44820 http://www.wavelinc.com tel. 419-562-6405 fax. 419-617-0110 On Oct 18, 2014, at 11:21 AM, Mike Hammett via Af af@afmug.com wrote: blockquote I've noticed a lot of PMP operators are deploying omnis (presumably because they can't afford 4 APs. Give me TDMA Atheros with sectors over omnis on anything any day. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com From: Kurt Fankhauser via Af af@afmug.com To: af@afmug.com Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 8:38:14 AM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons TJ, No difference between the 3 different frequencies bands (other than NLOS range) as far as the product itself they are all the same animal. 2.4ghz NLOS is slightly better than 3.65ghhz. They all function the same and have the same expected throughputs per channel width. They all use the same firmware and i love the interface being the same across all 3. The only major difference is the 5ghz is V/H versus slant on the other two. That just translates to the 5ghz omni being ALOT smaller and lighter. There are some places that i wish the 2.4ghz woulda been V/H because of the omni size but overall I am still very happy with the 2.4ghz 450. Kurt Fankhauser Wavelinc Communications P.O. Box 126 Bucyrus, OH 44820 http://www.wavelinc.com tel. 419-562-6405 fax. 419-617-0110 On Sat, Oct 18, 2014 at 4:57 AM, TJ Trout via Af af@afmug.com wrote: Kurt, Any pros and cons on 450 between 2ghz, 3.65 and 5? Any differences at all? Range vs throughput? Obviously 2ghz penetrates better, 3 is licensed and 5 has more spectrum but anything else? All bands are open for me Thanks On Fri, Oct 17, 2014 at 11:20 PM, Kurt Fankhauser via Af af@afmug.com wrote: I started the spring deploying 450 in 2.4ghz, 5ghz, and 3.65ghz and then middle of the summer deciding i had totry some ePMP because the cost was so low I couldn't resist I can say now that I am fairly certain I will probably stick with the 450. There are many
Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons
If you don’t have 100% cooperation with GPS sync with competitors for various reasons, you will have interference. When more beam-forming options start coming out, GPS might have value on the same tower, but little value since the trade-off with reduced throughput isn’t worth it. This is why I don’t like towers in high-density areas. If I had 12 competitors, I’d have micro-cells until the equipment catches up with environment which I’m sure is coming. Rory From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett via Af Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 8:38 AM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons You lost me, Rory... - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com From: Rory Conaway via Af af@afmug.com To: af@afmug.com Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 10:35:08 AM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons Which then makes it not that valuable. I think Beam-Forming has more value. Rory From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett via Af Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 8:29 AM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons Half or more have the same Canopy settings. The rest are 802.11 based with some cooperating and some not responding to anything. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com From: Rory Conaway via Af af@afmug.com To: af@afmug.com Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 10:13:45 AM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons I’m assuming all 12 WISPs cooperate with each other? Rory From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett via Af Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 5:33 AM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons Entirely not true spoken by a WISP that has up until this point used Mikrotik and Ubiquiti in rural and suburban markets with 12 WISP competitors. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com From: Mark Radabaugh via Af af@afmug.com To: af@afmug.com Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 3:52:03 PM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons And now your completely out of spectrum and can't deploy anything new. I suppose the good part for you is nobody else can do anything given the amount of noise your making. Mark On 10/18/14, 1:27 PM, Josh Reynolds via Af wrote: You just hit the nail on the head why we have never considered deploying 450 (and similar) in the past: By the time you (relative term) have the cashflow to pay for those sectors, we (another relative term, for people deploying UBNT or similar) have already thrown up 4-6 shielded sectors and at least 10 clients per. If we don't think we can hit a decent sub density or at least make the site a valuable repeater, then we don't go there. Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com On 10/18/2014 09:01 AM, Kurt Fankhauser via Af wrote: I prefer sectors too but math doesnt always work out. I'll put the omni in to get the site up and once the customers are there change it to sectors. The 450 platform is very easy to drop sectors in and have the existing clients link right up. I have a couple sites with existing customers i am dropping a two sector 450 system in with 120 segree KP antennas. cant afford any more sectors than that per site right now... Sent from my iPhone Kurt Fankhauser Wavelinc Communications P.O. Box 126 Bucyrus, OH 44820 http://www.wavelinc.com tel. 419-562-6405 fax. 419-617-0110 On Oct 18, 2014, at 11:21 AM, Mike Hammett via Af af@afmug.com wrote: I've noticed a lot of PMP operators are deploying omnis (presumably because they can't afford 4 APs. Give me TDMA Atheros with sectors over omnis on anything any day. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com From: Kurt Fankhauser via Af af@afmug.com To: af@afmug.com Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 8:38:14 AM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons TJ, No difference between the 3 different frequencies bands (other than NLOS range) as far as the product itself they are all the same animal. 2.4ghz NLOS is slightly better
Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons
Its not a matter of what you use but how it was ratcheted to work. It may not have been built for what needs are for today but maybe 8 yrs ago it was a running system. If I had to use what you listed I could make it work with todays demands but it would not have the range. I have seen more than 5 wisps come and go here all using 802.11 based systems and failed but I dont think it was because of the radio type but just lack of knowledge on how to really deploy them in way that worked for them. On 10/19/2014 7:42 AM, Mike Hammett via Af wrote: The network I bought is a prime example of using Canopy doesn't guarantee success. Omnis everywhere, Omnis feeding SMs with other omnis behind them. $12k backhauls behind a backhaul link with a -87 signal. Generic (not even Linksys) networking gear, hubs, etc. But hey, he used Cyclones, PTP400s and Redlines so it was good, right? - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com *From: *Ken Hohhof via Af af@afmug.com *To: *af@afmug.com *Sent: *Saturday, October 18, 2014 1:15:38 PM *Subject: *Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons But there’s the stages of where WISPs have historically gotten their customers: 1) People getting Internet for the first time 2) People switching from dialup 3) People switching from DSL 4) People switching from satellite 5) People switching from mobile hotspots 6) People switching from other WISPs who did things on the cheap I guess stage 7 would be deploy fiber and drink everybody’s milkshake. *From:* Josh Reynolds via Af mailto:af@afmug.com *Sent:* Saturday, October 18, 2014 12:27 PM *To:* af@afmug.com mailto:af@afmug.com *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons You just hit the nail on the head why wehave never considered deploying 450 (and similar)in the past: By the time you (relative term) have the cashflow to pay for those sectors, we (another relative term, for people deploying UBNTor similar) have already thrown up 4-6 shielded sectors and at least 10 clients per. If we don't think we can hit a decent sub densityor at least make the site a valuable repeater, then we don't go there. Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com http://www.spitwspots.com On 10/18/2014 09:01 AM, Kurt Fankhauser via Af wrote: I prefer sectors too but math doesnt always work out. I'll put the omni in to get the site up and once the customers are there change it to sectors. The 450 platform is very easy to drop sectors in and have the existing clients link right up. I have a couple sites with existing customers i am dropping a two sector 450 system in with 120 segree KP antennas. cant afford any more sectors than that per site right now... Sent from my iPhone Kurt Fankhauser Wavelinc Communications P.O. Box 126 Bucyrus, OH 44820 http://www.wavelinc.com tel. 419-562-6405 fax. 419-617-0110 On Oct 18, 2014, at 11:21 AM, Mike Hammett via Af af@afmug.com mailto:af@afmug.com wrote: I've noticed a lot of PMP operators are deploying omnis (presumably because they can't afford 4 APs. Give me TDMA Atheros with sectors over omnis on anything any day. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com *From: *Kurt Fankhauser via Af af@afmug.com mailto:af@afmug.com *To: *af@afmug.com mailto:af@afmug.com *Sent: *Saturday, October 18, 2014 8:38:14 AM *Subject: *Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons TJ, No difference between the 3 different frequencies bands (other than NLOS range) as far as the product itself they are all the same animal. 2.4ghz NLOS is slightly better than 3.65ghhz. They all function the same and have the same expected throughputs per channel width. They all use the same firmware and i love the interface being the same across all 3. The only major difference is the 5ghz is V/H versus slant on the other two. That just translates to the 5ghz omni being ALOT smaller and lighter. There are some places that i wish the 2.4ghz woulda been V/H because of the omni size but overall I am still very happy with the 2.4ghz 450. Kurt Fankhauser Wavelinc Communications P.O. Box 126 Bucyrus, OH 44820 http://www.wavelinc.com http://www.wavelinc.com/ tel. 419-562-6405 fax. 419-617-0110 On Sat, Oct 18, 2014 at 4:57 AM, TJ Trout via Af af@afmug.com mailto:af@afmug.com wrote: Kurt, Any pros and cons on 450 between 2ghz, 3.65 and 5? Any differences at all? Range vs throughput? Obviously 2ghz penetrates better, 3
Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons
Good to point Also, to some extent, sync will help you on a environment with lots of noise from nonsynced operators Gino A. Villarini @gvillarini On Oct 19, 2014, at 12:27 PM, Ken Hohhof via Af af@afmug.commailto:af@afmug.com wrote: I think one point Mike is missing is without the WISPs that use GPS sync sharing frequencies, there wouldn’t be enough spectrum for the WISPs that don’t. It’s like someone disputing the value of carpooling because they drive solo and don’t experience traffic jams. But is that because other people carpool? You experience interference in a band with limited spectrum like 900. 2.4 or 3.65, and survey to find who all is using the band. Some you can coordinate sync with, others you can’t. So you call up the WISPs you can sync with, coordinate your frequencies and timing, and let the non-sync guy have a channel to himself. Which convinces the non-sync guy that the value of GPS sync is a myth. From: Rory Conaway via Afmailto:af@afmug.com Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 11:03 AM To: af@afmug.commailto:af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons If you don’t have 100% cooperation with GPS sync with competitors for various reasons, you will have interference. When more beam-forming options start coming out, GPS might have value on the same tower, but little value since the trade-off with reduced throughput isn’t worth it. This is why I don’t like towers in high-density areas. If I had 12 competitors, I’d have micro-cells until the equipment catches up with environment which I’m sure is coming. Rory From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett via Af Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 8:38 AM To: af@afmug.commailto:af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons You lost me, Rory... - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com From: Rory Conaway via Af af@afmug.commailto:af@afmug.com To: af@afmug.commailto:af@afmug.com Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 10:35:08 AM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons Which then makes it not that valuable. I think Beam-Forming has more value. Rory From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett via Af Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 8:29 AM To: af@afmug.commailto:af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons Half or more have the same Canopy settings. The rest are 802.11 based with some cooperating and some not responding to anything. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com From: Rory Conaway via Af af@afmug.commailto:af@afmug.com To: af@afmug.commailto:af@afmug.com Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 10:13:45 AM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons I’m assuming all 12 WISPs cooperate with each other? Rory From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett via Af Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 5:33 AM To: af@afmug.commailto:af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons Entirely not true spoken by a WISP that has up until this point used Mikrotik and Ubiquiti in rural and suburban markets with 12 WISP competitors. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com From: Mark Radabaugh via Af af@afmug.commailto:af@afmug.com To: af@afmug.commailto:af@afmug.com Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 3:52:03 PM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons And now your completely out of spectrum and can't deploy anything new. I suppose the good part for you is nobody else can do anything given the amount of noise your making. Mark On 10/18/14, 1:27 PM, Josh Reynolds via Af wrote: You just hit the nail on the head why we have never considered deploying 450 (and similar) in the past: By the time you (relative term) have the cashflow to pay for those sectors, we (another relative term, for people deploying UBNT or similar) have already thrown up 4-6 shielded sectors and at least 10 clients per. If we don't think we can hit a decent sub density or at least make the site a valuable repeater, then we don't go there. Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.comhttp://www.spitwspots.com On 10/18/2014 09:01 AM, Kurt Fankhauser via Af wrote: I prefer sectors too but math doesnt always work out. I'll put the omni in to get the site up and once the customers are there change it to sectors. The 450 platform is very easy to drop sectors in and have the existing clients link right up. I have a couple sites with existing customers i am dropping a two sector 450 system in with 120 segree KP antennas. cant afford any more sectors than that per site right now... Sent from my iPhone Kurt Fankhauser Wavelinc Communications P.O. Box 126 Bucyrus, OH 44820 http://www.wavelinc.com tel. 419-562-6405 fax. 419-617-0110 On Oct 18, 2014, at 11:21 AM, Mike Hammett via Af af
Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons
No argument but I don't think the value statement is there, especially with Ubiquiti and ePMP. At the same time, 802.11ac, MU-MIMO, Beam-forming, and other features in next generation chipsets may change the design models we are now discussing. I'm just saying.. J Rory From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Gino Villarini via Af Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 9:44 AM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons Good to point Also, to some extent, sync will help you on a environment with lots of noise from nonsynced operators Gino A. Villarini @gvillarini On Oct 19, 2014, at 12:27 PM, Ken Hohhof via Af af@afmug.com wrote: I think one point Mike is missing is without the WISPs that use GPS sync sharing frequencies, there wouldn't be enough spectrum for the WISPs that don't. It's like someone disputing the value of carpooling because they drive solo and don't experience traffic jams. But is that because other people carpool? You experience interference in a band with limited spectrum like 900. 2.4 or 3.65, and survey to find who all is using the band. Some you can coordinate sync with, others you can't. So you call up the WISPs you can sync with, coordinate your frequencies and timing, and let the non-sync guy have a channel to himself. Which convinces the non-sync guy that the value of GPS sync is a myth. From: Rory Conaway via Af mailto:af@afmug.com Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 11:03 AM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons If you don't have 100% cooperation with GPS sync with competitors for various reasons, you will have interference. When more beam-forming options start coming out, GPS might have value on the same tower, but little value since the trade-off with reduced throughput isn't worth it. This is why I don't like towers in high-density areas. If I had 12 competitors, I'd have micro-cells until the equipment catches up with environment which I'm sure is coming. Rory From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett via Af Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 8:38 AM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons You lost me, Rory... - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com From: Rory Conaway via Af af@afmug.com To: af@afmug.com Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 10:35:08 AM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons Which then makes it not that valuable. I think Beam-Forming has more value. Rory From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett via Af Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 8:29 AM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons Half or more have the same Canopy settings. The rest are 802.11 based with some cooperating and some not responding to anything. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com From: Rory Conaway via Af af@afmug.com To: af@afmug.com Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 10:13:45 AM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons I'm assuming all 12 WISPs cooperate with each other? Rory From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett via Af Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 5:33 AM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons Entirely not true spoken by a WISP that has up until this point used Mikrotik and Ubiquiti in rural and suburban markets with 12 WISP competitors. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com From: Mark Radabaugh via Af af@afmug.com To: af@afmug.com Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 3:52:03 PM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons And now your completely out of spectrum and can't deploy anything new. I suppose the good part for you is nobody else can do anything given the amount of noise your making. Mark On 10/18/14, 1:27 PM, Josh Reynolds via Af wrote: You just hit the nail on the head why we have never considered deploying 450 (and similar) in the past: By the time you (relative term) have the cashflow to pay for those sectors, we (another relative
Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons
No argument but I don't think the value statement is there, especially with Ubiquiti and ePMP. At the same time, 802.11ac, MU-MIMO, Beam-forming, and other features in next generation chipsets may change the design models we are now discussing. I'm just saying.. J Rory From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Gino Villarini via Af Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 9:44 AM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons Good to point Also, to some extent, sync will help you on a environment with lots of noise from nonsynced operators Gino A. Villarini @gvillarini On Oct 19, 2014, at 12:27 PM, Ken Hohhof via Af af@afmug.com wrote: I think one point Mike is missing is without the WISPs that use GPS sync sharing frequencies, there wouldn't be enough spectrum for the WISPs that don't. It's like someone disputing the value of carpooling because they drive solo and don't experience traffic jams. But is that because other people carpool? You experience interference in a band with limited spectrum like 900. 2.4 or 3.65, and survey to find who all is using the band. Some you can coordinate sync with, others you can't. So you call up the WISPs you can sync with, coordinate your frequencies and timing, and let the non-sync guy have a channel to himself. Which convinces the non-sync guy that the value of GPS sync is a myth. From: Rory Conaway via Af mailto:af@afmug.com Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 11:03 AM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons If you don't have 100% cooperation with GPS sync with competitors for various reasons, you will have interference. When more beam-forming options start coming out, GPS might have value on the same tower, but little value since the trade-off with reduced throughput isn't worth it. This is why I don't like towers in high-density areas. If I had 12 competitors, I'd have micro-cells until the equipment catches up with environment which I'm sure is coming. Rory From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett via Af Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 8:38 AM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons You lost me, Rory... - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com From: Rory Conaway via Af af@afmug.com To: af@afmug.com Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 10:35:08 AM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons Which then makes it not that valuable. I think Beam-Forming has more value. Rory From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett via Af Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 8:29 AM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons Half or more have the same Canopy settings. The rest are 802.11 based with some cooperating and some not responding to anything. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com From: Rory Conaway via Af af@afmug.com To: af@afmug.com Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 10:13:45 AM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons I'm assuming all 12 WISPs cooperate with each other? Rory From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett via Af Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 5:33 AM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons Entirely not true spoken by a WISP that has up until this point used Mikrotik and Ubiquiti in rural and suburban markets with 12 WISP competitors. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com From: Mark Radabaugh via Af af@afmug.com To: af@afmug.com Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 3:52:03 PM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons And now your completely out of spectrum and can't deploy anything new. I suppose the good part for you is nobody else can do anything given the amount of noise your making. Mark On 10/18/14, 1:27 PM, Josh Reynolds via Af wrote: You just hit the nail on the head why we have never considered deploying 450 (and similar) in the past: By the time you (relative term) have the cashflow to pay for those sectors, we (another relative
Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons
Sync reduces self-interference, whether you cooperate with competitors or not. If you sync with some of your competitors, it's better than no competitors. Your environment may be such that you can't reuse frequencies. That's fine. You still reduce self-interference. You make the most of whatever you have. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com - Original Message - From: Rory Conaway via Af af@afmug.com To: af@afmug.com Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 11:03:02 AM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons If you don’t have 100% cooperation with GPS sync with competitors for various reasons, you will have interference. When more beam-forming options start coming out, GPS might have value on the same tower, but little value since the trade-off with reduced throughput isn’t worth it. This is why I don’t like towers in high-density areas. If I had 12 competitors, I’d have micro-cells until the equipment catches up with environment which I’m sure is coming. Rory From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett via Af Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 8:38 AM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons You lost me, Rory... - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com - Original Message - From: Rory Conaway via Af af@afmug.com To: af@afmug.com Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 10:35:08 AM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons Which then makes it not that valuable. I think Beam-Forming has more value. Rory From: Af [ mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com ] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett via Af Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 8:29 AM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons Half or more have the same Canopy settings. The rest are 802.11 based with some cooperating and some not responding to anything. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com From: Rory Conaway via Af af@afmug.com To: af@afmug.com Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 10:13:45 AM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons I’m assuming all 12 WISPs cooperate with each other? Rory From: Af [ mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com ] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett via Af Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 5:33 AM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons Entirely not true spoken by a WISP that has up until this point used Mikrotik and Ubiquiti in rural and suburban markets with 12 WISP competitors. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com From: Mark Radabaugh via Af af@afmug.com To: af@afmug.com Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 3:52:03 PM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons And now your completely out of spectrum and can't deploy anything new. I suppose the good part for you is nobody else can do anything given the amount of noise your making. Mark On 10/18/14, 1:27 PM, Josh Reynolds via Af wrote: You just hit the nail on the head why we have never considered deploying 450 (and similar ) in the past: By the time you (relative term) have the cashflow to pay for those sectors, we (another relative term, for people deploying UBNT or similar) have already thrown up 4-6 shielded sectors and at least 10 clients per. If we don' t think we can hit a decent sub density or at least make the site a valuable repeater, then we don't go there. Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com On 10/18/2014 09:01 AM, Kurt Fankhauser via Af wrote: blockquote I prefer sectors too but math doesnt always work out. I'll put the omni in to get the site up and once the customers are there change it to sectors. The 450 platform is very easy to drop sectors in and have the existing clients link right up. I have a couple sites with existing customers i am dropping a two sector 450 system in with 120 segree KP antennas. cant afford any more sectors than that per site right now... Sent from my iPhone Kurt Fankhauser Wavelinc Communications P.O. Box 126 Bucyrus, OH 44820 http://www.wavelinc.com tel. 419-562-6405 fax. 419-617-0110 On Oct 18, 2014, at 11:21 AM, Mike Hammett via Af af@afmug.com wrote: blockquote I've noticed a lot of PMP operators are deploying omnis (presumably because they can't afford 4 APs. Give me TDMA Atheros with sectors over omnis on anything any day. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com From: Kurt Fankhauser via Af af@afmug.com To: af@afmug.com Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 8:38:14 AM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons TJ, No difference between the 3 different frequencies bands (other than NLOS range) as far as the product itself they are all the same animal. 2.4ghz NLOS is slightly better than 3.65ghhz. They all function the same and have the same expected throughputs per
Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons
I think you have my intentions mistaken, Ken. I support sync. I ask for it of every manufacturer. I've been asking MT for it for 10 years. Sync is good. I do not support an omni 450 being better than ePMP with sectors. Sure, the non-sync guys have things to learn, but I think sync has masked some sync operators lack of RF knowledge (sectors, reduced beamwidth, reduced projected interference, etc.) - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com - Original Message - From: Ken Hohhof via Af af@afmug.com To: af@afmug.com Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 11:26:15 AM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons I think one point Mike is missing is without the WISPs that use GPS sync sharing frequencies, there wouldn’t be enough spectrum for the WISPs that don’t. It’s like someone disputing the value of carpooling because they drive solo and don’t experience traffic jams. But is that because other people carpool? You experience interference in a band with limited spectrum like 900. 2.4 or 3.65, and survey to find who all is using the band. Some you can coordinate sync with, others you can’t. So you call up the WISPs you can sync with, coordinate your frequencies and timing, and let the non-sync guy have a channel to himself. Which convinces the non-sync guy that the value of GPS sync is a myth. From: Rory Conaway via Af Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 11:03 AM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons If you don’t have 100% cooperation with GPS sync with competitors for various reasons, you will have interference. When more beam-forming options start coming out, GPS might have value on the same tower, but little value since the trade-off with reduced throughput isn’t worth it. This is why I don’t like towers in high-density areas. If I had 12 competitors, I’d have micro-cells until the equipment catches up with environment which I’m sure is coming. Rory From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett via Af Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 8:38 AM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons You lost me, Rory... - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com - Original Message - From: Rory Conaway via Af af@afmug.com To: af@afmug.com Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 10:35:08 AM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons Which then makes it not that valuable. I think Beam-Forming has more value. Rory From: Af [ mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com ] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett via Af Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 8:29 AM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons Half or more have the same Canopy settings. The rest are 802.11 based with some cooperating and some not responding to anything. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com From: Rory Conaway via Af af@afmug.com To: af@afmug.com Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 10:13:45 AM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons I’m assuming all 12 WISPs cooperate with each other? Rory From: Af [ mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com ] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett via Af Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 5:33 AM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons Entirely not true spoken by a WISP that has up until this point used Mikrotik and Ubiquiti in rural and suburban markets with 12 WISP competitors. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com From: Mark Radabaugh via Af af@afmug.com To: af@afmug.com Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 3:52:03 PM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons And now your completely out of spectrum and can't deploy anything new. I suppose the good part for you is nobody else can do anything given the amount of noise your making. Mark On 10/18/14, 1:27 PM, Josh Reynolds via Af wrote: You just hit the nail on the head why we have never considered deploying 450 (and similar ) in the past: By the time you (relative term) have the cashflow to pay for those sectors, we (another relative term, for people deploying UBNT or similar) have already thrown up 4-6 shielded sectors and at least 10 clients per. If we don' t think we can hit a decent sub density or at least make the site a valuable repeater, then we don't go there. Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com On 10/18/2014 09:01 AM, Kurt Fankhauser via Af wrote: blockquote I prefer sectors too but math doesnt always work out. I'll put the omni in to get the site up and once the customers are there change it to sectors. The 450 platform is very easy to drop sectors in and have the existing clients link right up. I have a couple sites with existing customers i am dropping a two sector 450 system in with 120 segree KP antennas. cant afford any more sectors than that per site
Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons
Of the Mu-MIMO vendors I know of (just one), they still use sync. ePMP does use sync. Yes, I can't wait for more Mu-MIMO systems (and the one actually shipping) and the underlying beamforming (and null forming) that they bring to the table. However, all of those systems are made better by sync. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com - Original Message - From: Rory Conaway via Af af@afmug.com To: af@afmug.com Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 12:15:59 PM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons No argument but I don’t think the value statement is there, especially with Ubiquiti and ePMP. At the same time, 802.11ac, MU-MIMO, Beam-forming, and other features in next generation chipsets may change the design models we are now discussing. I’m just saying…… J Rory From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Gino Villarini via Af Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 9:44 AM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons Good to point Also, to some extent, sync will help you on a environment with lots of noise from nonsynced operators Gino A. Villarini @gvillarini On Oct 19, 2014, at 12:27 PM, Ken Hohhof via Af af@afmug.com wrote: I think one point Mike is missing is without the WISPs that use GPS sync sharing frequencies, there wouldn’t be enough spectrum for the WISPs that don’t. It’s like someone disputing the value of carpooling because they drive solo and don’t experience traffic jams. But is that because other people carpool? You experience interference in a band with limited spectrum like 900. 2.4 or 3.65, and survey to find who all is using the band. Some you can coordinate sync with, others you can’t. So you call up the WISPs you can sync with, coordinate your frequencies and timing, and let the non-sync guy have a channel to himself. Which convinces the non-sync guy that the value of GPS sync is a myth. From: Rory Conaway via Af Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 11:03 AM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons If you don’t have 100% cooperation with GPS sync with competitors for various reasons, you will have interference. When more beam-forming options start coming out, GPS might have value on the same tower, but little value since the trade-off with reduced throughput isn’t worth it. This is why I don’t like towers in high-density areas. If I had 12 competitors, I’d have micro-cells until the equipment catches up with environment which I’m sure is coming. Rory From: Af [ mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com ] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett via Af Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 8:38 AM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons You lost me, Rory... - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com From: Rory Conaway via Af af@afmug.com To: af@afmug.com Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 10:35:08 AM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons Which then makes it not that valuable. I think Beam-Forming has more value. Rory From: Af [ mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com ] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett via Af Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 8:29 AM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons Half or more have the same Canopy settings. The rest are 802.11 based with some cooperating and some not responding to anything. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com From: Rory Conaway via Af af@afmug.com To: af@afmug.com Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 10:13:45 AM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons I’m assuming all 12 WISPs cooperate with each other? Rory From: Af [ mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com ] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett via Af Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 5:33 AM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons Entirely not true spoken by a WISP that has up until this point used Mikrotik and Ubiquiti in rural and suburban markets with 12 WISP competitors. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com From: Mark Radabaugh via Af af@afmug.com To: af@afmug.com Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 3:52:03 PM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons And now your completely out of spectrum and can't deploy anything new. I suppose the good part for you is nobody else can do anything given the amount of noise your making. Mark On 10/18/14, 1:27 PM, Josh Reynolds via Af wrote: blockquote You just hit the nail on the head why we have never considered deploying 450 (and similar ) in the past: By the time you (relative term) have the cashflow to pay for those sectors, we (another relative term, for people deploying UBNT or similar) have already thrown up 4-6 shielded sectors and at least 10 clients per. If we don' t think we can hit a decent sub density or at least make the site
Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons
I think part of our difference here is environment. I’m in urban areas where 12 other operators aren’t my biggest issues. It’s that every AP I have has 300 houses or more in every direction that have indoor APs, Dish Network whole house video, etc… So, having an AP that has more dynamic features for that is more valuable than GPS to me. I know Cambium is touting that feature on the ePMP but it’s just not as important for a microcell. Rory From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett via Af Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 10:19 AM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons Sync reduces self-interference, whether you cooperate with competitors or not. If you sync with some of your competitors, it's better than no competitors. Your environment may be such that you can't reuse frequencies. That's fine. You still reduce self-interference. You make the most of whatever you have. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com From: Rory Conaway via Af af@afmug.com To: af@afmug.com Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 11:03:02 AM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons If you don’t have 100% cooperation with GPS sync with competitors for various reasons, you will have interference. When more beam-forming options start coming out, GPS might have value on the same tower, but little value since the trade-off with reduced throughput isn’t worth it. This is why I don’t like towers in high-density areas. If I had 12 competitors, I’d have micro-cells until the equipment catches up with environment which I’m sure is coming. Rory From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett via Af Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 8:38 AM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons You lost me, Rory... - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com From: Rory Conaway via Af af@afmug.com To: af@afmug.com Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 10:35:08 AM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons Which then makes it not that valuable. I think Beam-Forming has more value. Rory From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett via Af Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 8:29 AM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons Half or more have the same Canopy settings. The rest are 802.11 based with some cooperating and some not responding to anything. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com From: Rory Conaway via Af af@afmug.com To: af@afmug.com Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 10:13:45 AM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons I’m assuming all 12 WISPs cooperate with each other? Rory From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett via Af Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 5:33 AM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons Entirely not true spoken by a WISP that has up until this point used Mikrotik and Ubiquiti in rural and suburban markets with 12 WISP competitors. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com From: Mark Radabaugh via Af af@afmug.com To: af@afmug.com Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 3:52:03 PM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons And now your completely out of spectrum and can't deploy anything new. I suppose the good part for you is nobody else can do anything given the amount of noise your making. Mark On 10/18/14, 1:27 PM, Josh Reynolds via Af wrote: You just hit the nail on the head why we have never considered deploying 450 (and similar) in the past: By the time you (relative term) have the cashflow to pay for those sectors, we (another relative term, for people deploying UBNT or similar) have already thrown up 4-6 shielded sectors and at least 10 clients per. If we don't think we can hit a decent sub density or at least make the site a valuable repeater, then we don't go there. Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com On 10/18/2014 09:01 AM, Kurt Fankhauser via Af wrote: I prefer sectors too but math doesnt always work out. I'll put the omni in to get the site up and once the customers are there change it to sectors. The 450 platform is very easy to drop sectors in and have the existing clients link right up. I have a couple sites with existing customers i am dropping a two sector 450 system in with 120 segree KP antennas. cant afford any more sectors than that per site right now... Sent from my iPhone Kurt Fankhauser Wavelinc Communications P.O. Box 126 Bucyrus, OH 44820
Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons
I'm not in downtown Chicago, but I am in Chicago's suburbs (in addition to rural areas). I can't imagine the density is that much different unless you have a higher ratio of townhomes\duplexes\apartments to single family homes. I don't disagree that smaller and smaller cells are better for SNR and therefore throughput. The only modern platforms with smart antennas also have sync. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com - Original Message - From: Rory Conaway via Af af@afmug.com To: af@afmug.com Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 12:30:00 PM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons I think part of our difference here is environment. I’m in urban areas where 12 other operators aren’t my biggest issues. It’s that every AP I have has 300 houses or more in every direction that have indoor APs, Dish Network whole house video, etc… So, having an AP that has more dynamic features for that is more valuable than GPS to me. I know Cambium is touting that feature on the ePMP but it’s just not as important for a microcell. Rory From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett via Af Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 10:19 AM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons Sync reduces self-interference, whether you cooperate with competitors or not. If you sync with some of your competitors, it's better than no competitors. Your environment may be such that you can't reuse frequencies. That's fine. You still reduce self-interference. You make the most of whatever you have. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com - Original Message - From: Rory Conaway via Af af@afmug.com To: af@afmug.com Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 11:03:02 AM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons If you don’t have 100% cooperation with GPS sync with competitors for various reasons, you will have interference. When more beam-forming options start coming out, GPS might have value on the same tower, but little value since the trade-off with reduced throughput isn’t worth it. This is why I don’t like towers in high-density areas. If I had 12 competitors, I’d have micro-cells until the equipment catches up with environment which I’m sure is coming. Rory From: Af [ mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com ] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett via Af Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 8:38 AM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons You lost me, Rory... - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com From: Rory Conaway via Af af@afmug.com To: af@afmug.com Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 10:35:08 AM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons Which then makes it not that valuable. I think Beam-Forming has more value. Rory From: Af [ mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com ] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett via Af Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 8:29 AM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons Half or more have the same Canopy settings. The rest are 802.11 based with some cooperating and some not responding to anything. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com From: Rory Conaway via Af af@afmug.com To: af@afmug.com Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 10:13:45 AM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons I’m assuming all 12 WISPs cooperate with each other? Rory From: Af [ mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com ] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett via Af Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 5:33 AM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons Entirely not true spoken by a WISP that has up until this point used Mikrotik and Ubiquiti in rural and suburban markets with 12 WISP competitors. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com From: Mark Radabaugh via Af af@afmug.com To: af@afmug.com Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 3:52:03 PM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons And now your completely out of spectrum and can't deploy anything new. I suppose the good part for you is nobody else can do anything given the amount of noise your making. Mark On 10/18/14, 1:27 PM, Josh Reynolds via Af wrote: You just hit the nail on the head why we have never considered deploying 450 (and similar ) in the past: By the time you (relative term) have the cashflow to pay for those sectors, we (another relative term, for people deploying UBNT or similar) have already thrown up 4-6 shielded sectors and at least 10 clients per. If we don' t think we can hit a decent sub density or at least make the site a valuable repeater, then we don't go there. Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com On 10/18/2014 09:01 AM, Kurt Fankhauser via Af wrote: blockquote I prefer sectors too but math doesnt always work out. I'll put the omni in to get the site
Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons
All those afro mentioned benefit from sync. Mimosa, the latest and greatest pmp (on spec sheet) has GPS sync Canopy, 3G, 4G, Wimax, LTE... All use sync for a reason Lots WiFi based suppliers are moving to sync.. No way around it, FCC should have mandated a form of sync for unlicensed Just imagine how much spectrum we would have available if WiFi had sync Gino A. Villarini @gvillarini On Oct 19, 2014, at 1:22 PM, Rory Conaway via Af af@afmug.commailto:af@afmug.com wrote: No argument but I don’t think the value statement is there, especially with Ubiquiti and ePMP. At the same time, 802.11ac, MU-MIMO, Beam-forming, and other features in next generation chipsets may change the design models we are now discussing. I’m just saying…… :) Rory From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Gino Villarini via Af Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 9:44 AM To: af@afmug.commailto:af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons Good to point Also, to some extent, sync will help you on a environment with lots of noise from nonsynced operators Gino A. Villarini @gvillarini On Oct 19, 2014, at 12:27 PM, Ken Hohhof via Af af@afmug.commailto:af@afmug.com wrote: I think one point Mike is missing is without the WISPs that use GPS sync sharing frequencies, there wouldn’t be enough spectrum for the WISPs that don’t. It’s like someone disputing the value of carpooling because they drive solo and don’t experience traffic jams. But is that because other people carpool? You experience interference in a band with limited spectrum like 900. 2.4 or 3.65, and survey to find who all is using the band. Some you can coordinate sync with, others you can’t. So you call up the WISPs you can sync with, coordinate your frequencies and timing, and let the non-sync guy have a channel to himself. Which convinces the non-sync guy that the value of GPS sync is a myth. From: Rory Conaway via Afmailto:af@afmug.com Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 11:03 AM To: af@afmug.commailto:af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons If you don’t have 100% cooperation with GPS sync with competitors for various reasons, you will have interference. When more beam-forming options start coming out, GPS might have value on the same tower, but little value since the trade-off with reduced throughput isn’t worth it. This is why I don’t like towers in high-density areas. If I had 12 competitors, I’d have micro-cells until the equipment catches up with environment which I’m sure is coming. Rory From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett via Af Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 8:38 AM To: af@afmug.commailto:af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons You lost me, Rory... - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com From: Rory Conaway via Af af@afmug.commailto:af@afmug.com To: af@afmug.commailto:af@afmug.com Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 10:35:08 AM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons Which then makes it not that valuable. I think Beam-Forming has more value. Rory From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett via Af Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 8:29 AM To: af@afmug.commailto:af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons Half or more have the same Canopy settings. The rest are 802.11 based with some cooperating and some not responding to anything. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com From: Rory Conaway via Af af@afmug.commailto:af@afmug.com To: af@afmug.commailto:af@afmug.com Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 10:13:45 AM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons I’m assuming all 12 WISPs cooperate with each other? Rory From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett via Af Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 5:33 AM To: af@afmug.commailto:af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons Entirely not true spoken by a WISP that has up until this point used Mikrotik and Ubiquiti in rural and suburban markets with 12 WISP competitors. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com From: Mark Radabaugh via Af af@afmug.commailto:af@afmug.com To: af@afmug.commailto:af@afmug.com Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 3:52:03 PM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons And now your completely out of spectrum and can't deploy anything new. I suppose the good part for you is nobody else can do anything given the amount of noise your making. Mark On 10/18/14, 1:27 PM, Josh Reynolds via Af wrote: You just hit the nail on the head why we have never considered deploying 450 (and similar) in the past: By the time you (relative term) have the cashflow to pay for those sectors, we (another relative term, for people deploying UBNT or similar) have already thrown up 4-6 shielded
Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons
Yeah, competing with all the consumer stuff has to be a challenge. I had an interesting experience with the Boy Scout campout this weekend. It’s in a rural county park, so not competing with consumer WiFi. I put up a dished 5.7 SM to our tower, then used 5.4 GHz PTP Nanostation links to feed each picnic shelter, with a Mikrotik 951 in each picnic shelter, each on a separate 2.4 channel. Except then the ham radio guys pull up their RV and fire up their HP Bullet and omni fed by a Cradlepoint router with a cellular modem to show me how much better their solution was. So they probably wiped out 1 or 2 of the channels I was using. Yikes. From: Rory Conaway via Af Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 12:30 PM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons I think part of our difference here is environment. I’m in urban areas where 12 other operators aren’t my biggest issues. It’s that every AP I have has 300 houses or more in every direction that have indoor APs, Dish Network whole house video, etc… So, having an AP that has more dynamic features for that is more valuable than GPS to me. I know Cambium is touting that feature on the ePMP but it’s just not as important for a microcell. Rory From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett via Af Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 10:19 AM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons Sync reduces self-interference, whether you cooperate with competitors or not. If you sync with some of your competitors, it's better than no competitors. Your environment may be such that you can't reuse frequencies. That's fine. You still reduce self-interference. You make the most of whatever you have. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com From: Rory Conaway via Af af@afmug.com To: af@afmug.com Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 11:03:02 AM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons If you don’t have 100% cooperation with GPS sync with competitors for various reasons, you will have interference. When more beam-forming options start coming out, GPS might have value on the same tower, but little value since the trade-off with reduced throughput isn’t worth it. This is why I don’t like towers in high-density areas. If I had 12 competitors, I’d have micro-cells until the equipment catches up with environment which I’m sure is coming. Rory From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett via Af Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 8:38 AM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons You lost me, Rory... - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com From: Rory Conaway via Af af@afmug.com To: af@afmug.com Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 10:35:08 AM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons Which then makes it not that valuable. I think Beam-Forming has more value. Rory From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett via Af Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 8:29 AM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons Half or more have the same Canopy settings. The rest are 802.11 based with some cooperating and some not responding to anything. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com From: Rory Conaway via Af af@afmug.com To: af@afmug.com Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 10:13:45 AM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons I’m assuming all 12 WISPs cooperate with each other? Rory From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett via Af Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 5:33 AM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons Entirely not true spoken by a WISP that has up until this point used Mikrotik and Ubiquiti in rural and suburban markets with 12 WISP competitors. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com From: Mark Radabaugh via Af af@afmug.com To: af@afmug.com Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 3:52:03 PM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons And now your completely out of spectrum and can't deploy anything new. I suppose the good part for you is nobody else can do anything given the amount of noise your making. Mark On 10/18/14, 1:27 PM, Josh Reynolds via Af wrote: You just hit the nail on the head why we have never considered deploying 450 (and similar) in the past: By the time you (relative term) have the cashflow to pay for those sectors, we (another relative term, for people deploying UBNT or similar) have already thrown up 4-6 shielded
Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons
I've been doing micropops for about 7+ years now. I mainly started using that model because it enabled me to reach places that I otherwise couldn't. The added SNR and corresponding throughput is a nice side effect though. Customers also like smaller antennas/radios and the mounts that go with them as well. On Sunday, October 19, 2014, Mike Hammett via Af af@afmug.com wrote: I'm not in downtown Chicago, but I am in Chicago's suburbs (in addition to rural areas). I can't imagine the density is that much different unless you have a higher ratio of townhomes\duplexes\apartments to single family homes. I don't disagree that smaller and smaller cells are better for SNR and therefore throughput. The only modern platforms with smart antennas also have sync. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com -- *From: *Rory Conaway via Af af@afmug.com javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','af@afmug.com'); *To: *af@afmug.com javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','af@afmug.com'); *Sent: *Sunday, October 19, 2014 12:30:00 PM *Subject: *Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons I think part of our difference here is environment. I’m in urban areas where 12 other operators aren’t my biggest issues. It’s that every AP I have has 300 houses or more in every direction that have indoor APs, Dish Network whole house video, etc… So, having an AP that has more dynamic features for that is more valuable than GPS to me. I know Cambium is touting that feature on the ePMP but it’s just not as important for a microcell. Rory *From:* Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','af-boun...@afmug.com');] *On Behalf Of *Mike Hammett via Af *Sent:* Sunday, October 19, 2014 10:19 AM *To:* af@afmug.com javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','af@afmug.com'); *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons Sync reduces self-interference, whether you cooperate with competitors or not. If you sync with some of your competitors, it's better than no competitors. Your environment may be such that you can't reuse frequencies. That's fine. You still reduce self-interference. You make the most of whatever you have. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com -- *From: *Rory Conaway via Af af@afmug.com javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','af@afmug.com'); *To: *af@afmug.com javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','af@afmug.com'); *Sent: *Sunday, October 19, 2014 11:03:02 AM *Subject: *Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons If you don’t have 100% cooperation with GPS sync with competitors for various reasons, you will have interference. When more beam-forming options start coming out, GPS might have value on the same tower, but little value since the trade-off with reduced throughput isn’t worth it. This is why I don’t like towers in high-density areas. If I had 12 competitors, I’d have micro-cells until the equipment catches up with environment which I’m sure is coming. Rory *From:* Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','af-boun...@afmug.com');] *On Behalf Of *Mike Hammett via Af *Sent:* Sunday, October 19, 2014 8:38 AM *To:* af@afmug.com javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','af@afmug.com'); *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons You lost me, Rory... - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com -- *From: *Rory Conaway via Af af@afmug.com javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','af@afmug.com'); *To: *af@afmug.com javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','af@afmug.com'); *Sent: *Sunday, October 19, 2014 10:35:08 AM *Subject: *Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons Which then makes it not that valuable. I think Beam-Forming has more value. Rory *From:* Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','af-boun...@afmug.com');] *On Behalf Of *Mike Hammett via Af *Sent:* Sunday, October 19, 2014 8:29 AM *To:* af@afmug.com javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','af@afmug.com'); *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons Half or more have the same Canopy settings. The rest are 802.11 based with some cooperating and some not responding to anything. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com -- *From: *Rory Conaway via Af af@afmug.com javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','af@afmug.com'); *To: *af@afmug.com javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','af@afmug.com'); *Sent: *Sunday, October 19, 2014 10:13:45 AM *Subject: *Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons I’m assuming all 12 WISPs cooperate with each other? Rory *From:* Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','af-boun...@afmug.com');] *On Behalf Of *Mike Hammett via Af *Sent:* Sunday, October 19, 2014 5:33 AM *To:* af@afmug.com javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','af@afmug.com'); *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons Entirely not true
Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons
The website describes it pretty well Rory. Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com http://www.spitwspots.com On 10/19/2014 08:07 AM, Rory Conaway via Af wrote: Yea, didn’t know if that information violated the old NDA thing Rory *From:*Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] *On Behalf Of *Mike Hammett via Af *Sent:* Sunday, October 19, 2014 5:35 AM *To:* af@afmug.com *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons It eliminates the need for sectors... by having four sectors in one enclosure. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com *From: *Rory Conaway via Af af@afmug.com mailto:af@afmug.com *To: *af@afmug.com mailto:af@afmug.com *Sent: *Sunday, October 19, 2014 12:48:06 AM *Subject: *Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons We keep our residential home deployments down to about ½ mile or less. We figure that’s good for about 50 users with 20MHz channels with on Rocket 5Ms and about 60-70Mbps capacity. I might change to Ubiquiti Rocket AC radios when they get a stable PTMP firmware assuming it’s done by early next year. If it’s delayed further than 1^st quarter, I will probably wait to evaluate Mimosa’s A5-360 . That bad boy can support up to 1Gbps with 802.11ac clients which pretty much eliminates the need for sectors unless you have a down-tilt or range issue. Even the gain on that antenna is 18dBi which is more than sufficient for DFS channels. Rory *From:*Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] *On Behalf Of *Josh Reynolds via Af *Sent:* Saturday, October 18, 2014 10:08 PM *To:* af@afmug.com mailto:af@afmug.com *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons If we lived in an area where things were flat, you might be right. We're full of hills and valleys, mountains and glaciers. ... but we're not flat, and Rory is doing similar things in his environment by using low-to-the-ground microcells and using the residential structures to create an urban canyon effect. Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com http://www.spitwspots.com On 10/18/2014 01:52 PM, Mark Radabaugh via Af wrote: And now your completely out of spectrum and can't deploy anything new. I suppose the good part for you is nobody else can do anything given the amount of noise your making. Mark On 10/18/14, 1:27 PM, Josh Reynolds via Af wrote: You just hit the nail on the head why we have never considered deploying 450 (and similar) in the past: By the time you (relative term) have the cashflow to pay for those sectors, we (another relative term, for people deploying UBNT or similar) have already thrown up 4-6 shielded sectors and at least 10 clients per. If we don't think we can hit a decent sub densityor at least make the site a valuable repeater, then we don't go there. Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com http://www.spitwspots.com On 10/18/2014 09:01 AM, Kurt Fankhauser via Af wrote: I prefer sectors too but math doesnt always work out. I'll put the omni in to get the site up and once the customers are there change it to sectors. The 450 platform is very easy to drop sectors in and have the existing clients link right up. I have a couple sites with existing customers i am dropping a two sector 450 system in with 120 segree KP antennas. cant afford any more sectors than that per site right now... Sent from my iPhone Kurt Fankhauser Wavelinc Communications P.O. Box 126 Bucyrus, OH 44820 http://www.wavelinc.com tel. 419-562-6405 fax. 419-617-0110 On Oct 18, 2014, at 11:21 AM, Mike Hammett via Af af@afmug.com mailto:af@afmug.com wrote: I've noticed a lot of PMP operators are deploying omnis (presumably because they can't afford 4 APs. Give me TDMA Atheros with sectors over omnis on anything any day. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com *From: *Kurt Fankhauser via Af af@afmug.com mailto:af@afmug.com *To: *af@afmug.com mailto:af@afmug.com *Sent: *Saturday, October 18, 2014 8:38:14 AM *Subject: *Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons TJ, No difference between the 3 different frequencies bands (other than NLOS range) as far as the product itself they are all the same animal
Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons
So it's Roy against the world of sync Gino A. Villarini @gvillarini On Oct 19, 2014, at 5:20 PM, Rory Conaway via Af af@afmug.commailto:af@afmug.com wrote: Yea, I covered that in one of my articles. I just didn’t see everyone sitting around the campfire singing Kumbya. Another reason I don’t worry about GPS. My next article covers my main reason. Rory From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Josh Reynolds via Af Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 1:56 PM To: af@afmug.commailto:af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons LOL :) Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.comhttp://www.spitwspots.com On 10/19/2014 08:13 AM, Rory Conaway via Af wrote: I’m assuming all 12 WISPs cooperate with each other? Rory From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett via Af Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 5:33 AM To: af@afmug.commailto:af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons Entirely not true spoken by a WISP that has up until this point used Mikrotik and Ubiquiti in rural and suburban markets with 12 WISP competitors. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com From: Mark Radabaugh via Af af@afmug.commailto:af@afmug.com To: af@afmug.commailto:af@afmug.com Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 3:52:03 PM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons And now your completely out of spectrum and can't deploy anything new. I suppose the good part for you is nobody else can do anything given the amount of noise your making. Mark On 10/18/14, 1:27 PM, Josh Reynolds via Af wrote: You just hit the nail on the head why we have never considered deploying 450 (and similar) in the past: By the time you (relative term) have the cashflow to pay for those sectors, we (another relative term, for people deploying UBNT or similar) have already thrown up 4-6 shielded sectors and at least 10 clients per. If we don't think we can hit a decent sub density or at least make the site a valuable repeater, then we don't go there. Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.comhttp://www.spitwspots.com On 10/18/2014 09:01 AM, Kurt Fankhauser via Af wrote: I prefer sectors too but math doesnt always work out. I'll put the omni in to get the site up and once the customers are there change it to sectors. The 450 platform is very easy to drop sectors in and have the existing clients link right up. I have a couple sites with existing customers i am dropping a two sector 450 system in with 120 segree KP antennas. cant afford any more sectors than that per site right now... Sent from my iPhone Kurt Fankhauser Wavelinc Communications P.O. Box 126 Bucyrus, OH 44820 http://www.wavelinc.com tel. 419-562-6405 fax. 419-617-0110 On Oct 18, 2014, at 11:21 AM, Mike Hammett via Af af@afmug.commailto:af@afmug.com wrote: I've noticed a lot of PMP operators are deploying omnis (presumably because they can't afford 4 APs. Give me TDMA Atheros with sectors over omnis on anything any day. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com From: Kurt Fankhauser via Af af@afmug.commailto:af@afmug.com To: af@afmug.commailto:af@afmug.com Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 8:38:14 AM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons TJ, No difference between the 3 different frequencies bands (other than NLOS range) as far as the product itself they are all the same animal. 2.4ghz NLOS is slightly better than 3.65ghhz. They all function the same and have the same expected throughputs per channel width. They all use the same firmware and i love the interface being the same across all 3. The only major difference is the 5ghz is V/H versus slant on the other two. That just translates to the 5ghz omni being ALOT smaller and lighter. There are some places that i wish the 2.4ghz woulda been V/H because of the omni size but overall I am still very happy with the 2.4ghz 450. Kurt Fankhauser Wavelinc Communications P.O. Box 126 Bucyrus, OH 44820 http://www.wavelinc.comhttp://www.wavelinc.com/ tel. 419-562-6405 fax. 419-617-0110 On Sat, Oct 18, 2014 at 4:57 AM, TJ Trout via Af af@afmug.commailto:af@afmug.com wrote: Kurt, Any pros and cons on 450 between 2ghz, 3.65 and 5? Any differences at all? Range vs throughput? Obviously 2ghz penetrates better, 3 is licensed and 5 has more spectrum but anything else? All bands are open for me Thanks On Fri, Oct 17, 2014 at 11:20 PM, Kurt Fankhauser via Af af@afmug.commailto:af@afmug.com wrote: I started the spring deploying 450 in 2.4ghz, 5ghz, and 3.65ghz and then middle of the summer deciding i had totry some ePMP because the cost was so low I couldn't resist I can say now that I am fairly certain I will probably stick with the 450. There are many small reasons that when I considered them all i came to this conclusion. Here are my reasons: 1
Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons
Need to get something out... Our industry, like many others, doesn't stagnate for long. Right now we're on the edge of a new generation of radio tech, with bitlomat (cross-vendor softwarewith performance gains, gps sync, 802.11ac but down to the PHY layer) ubiquiti (airprism, tdma offloading, *possible* gps sync), and mimosa (too much to list) leading that charge. At least two of those vendors have had working beamforming for several years now(both TX and antenna based). These three are currently working on things that are outpacing MikroTik, the ePMP product, and othersby anywhere from 1/2 gen to 1 full hardware gen beyond everybody else. I'd guess we're about 1 year off to being able to provide reliable 100Mbps to the home, with 250Mbps (or more) roughly 2-3 years behind thatin PtMP, depending on various factors. That said, this is JUST the 802.11ac based stuff. There is at least one vendor up there on that list who will be manufacturing their own radios soon as well. Vendors will continue to come out with new tech every ~ 3 years. Their tech may be light years ahead of other vendors, and it's very likely they won't play well together in terms of general base tech or GPS sync. Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com http://www.spitwspots.com On 10/19/2014 02:11 PM, Rory Conaway via Af wrote: Yea, I covered that in one of my articles. I just didn’t see everyone sitting around the campfire singing Kumbya. Another reason I don’t worry about GPS. My next article covers my main reason. Rory *From:*Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] *On Behalf Of *Josh Reynolds via Af *Sent:* Sunday, October 19, 2014 1:56 PM *To:* af@afmug.com *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons LOL :) Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com http://www.spitwspots.com On 10/19/2014 08:13 AM, Rory Conaway via Af wrote: I’m assuming all 12 WISPs cooperate with each other? Rory *From:*Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] *On Behalf Of *Mike Hammett via Af *Sent:* Sunday, October 19, 2014 5:33 AM *To:* af@afmug.com mailto:af@afmug.com *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons Entirely not true spoken by a WISP that has up until this point used Mikrotik and Ubiquiti in rural and suburban markets with 12 WISP competitors. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com *From: *Mark Radabaugh via Af af@afmug.com mailto:af@afmug.com *To: *af@afmug.com mailto:af@afmug.com *Sent: *Saturday, October 18, 2014 3:52:03 PM *Subject: *Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons And now your completely out of spectrum and can't deploy anything new. I suppose the good part for you is nobody else can do anything given the amount of noise your making. Mark On 10/18/14, 1:27 PM, Josh Reynolds via Af wrote: You just hit the nail on the head why we have never considered deploying 450 (and similar) in the past: By the time you (relative term) have the cashflow to pay for those sectors, we (another relative term, for people deploying UBNT or similar) have already thrown up 4-6 shielded sectors and at least 10 clients per. If we don't think we can hit a decent sub density or at least make the site a valuable repeater, then we don't go there. Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com http://www.spitwspots.com On 10/18/2014 09:01 AM, Kurt Fankhauser via Af wrote: I prefer sectors too but math doesnt always work out. I'll put the omni in to get the site up and once the customers are there change it to sectors. The 450 platform is very easy to drop sectors in and have the existing clients link right up. I have a couple sites with existing customers i am dropping a two sector 450 system in with 120 segree KP antennas. cant afford any more sectors than that per site right now... Sent from my iPhone Kurt Fankhauser Wavelinc Communications P.O. Box 126 Bucyrus, OH 44820 http://www.wavelinc.com tel. 419-562-6405 fax. 419-617-0110 On Oct 18, 2014, at 11:21 AM, Mike Hammett via Af af@afmug.com mailto:af@afmug.com wrote: I've noticed a lot of PMP operators are deploying omnis (presumably because they can't afford 4 APs. Give me TDMA Atheros with sectors over omnis on anything any day. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com
Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons
Yes, I saw the spectrum analyzer from the client end as well. The past 24 hours of history. Not sure if it takes the client end into account when picking a channel. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com - Original Message - From: Josh Reynolds via Af af@afmug.com To: af@afmug.com Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 4:03:07 PM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons I thin k one of the biggest features there that Mimosa is working on is a drum they haven't even b eat that hard yet... They're work ing on doing the freq uency plan for you. (This is on the website, and in WISPAPALOOZA promo material..) When you have a system that is constantly performing scanning and reporting back to a c ontroller, you get some excellent ideas about what you can deploy and where. You will ge t to the point where you don't actually have to pick a channel anymore , as their system doesn't just know what channels you are using, but it knows the signal levels for the channels you aren't. The biggest concern I ha ve with this though, and I need to ask Larry or somebody, is if they are going to be collecting this info from the stations as well -- this is very important. Hearing the stations is one thing, but remember that's only around 20% or so of your network traffic. It's much more important that the stations have a better SNR to the APs than the other way around. Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com On 10/19/2014 10:16 AM, Rory Conaway via Af wrote: No argument but I don�t think the value statement is there, especially with Ubiquiti and ePMP.� At the same time, 802.11ac, MU-MIMO, Beam-forming, and other features in next generation chipsets may change the design models we are now discussing.� I�m just saying�� J � Rory � From: Af [ mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com ] On Behalf Of Gino Villarini via Af Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 9:44 AM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons � Good to point � Also, to some extent, sync will help you on a environment with lots of noise from nonsynced operators Gino A. Villarini @gvillarini � � On Oct 19, 2014, at 12:27 PM, Ken Hohhof via Af af@afmug.com wrote: blockquote I think one point Mike is missing is without the WISPs that use GPS sync sharing frequencies, there wouldn�t be enough spectrum for the WISPs that don�t. � It�s like someone disputing the value of carpooling because they drive solo and don�t experience traffic jams.� But is that because other people carpool? � You experience interference in a band with limited spectrum like 900. 2.4 or 3.65, and survey to find who all is using the band.� Some you can coordinate sync with, others you can�t.� So you call up the WISPs you can sync with, coordinate your frequencies and timing, and let the non-sync guy have a channel to himself.� Which convinces the non-sync guy that the value of GPS sync is a myth. � � From: Rory Conaway via Af Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 11:03 AM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons � If you don�t have 100% cooperation with GPS sync with competitors for various reasons, you will have interference.�� When more beam-forming options start coming out, GPS might have value on the same tower, but little value since the trade-off with reduced throughput isn�t worth it.�� This is why I don�t like towers in high-density areas.� If I had 12 competitors, I�d have micro-cells until the equipment catches up with environment which I�m sure is coming. � Rory � From: Af [ mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com ] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett via Af Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 8:38 AM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons � You lost me, Rory... - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com � From: Rory Conaway via Af af@afmug.com To: af@afmug.com Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 10:35:08 AM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons Which then makes it not that valuable.� I think Beam-Forming has more value. � Rory � From: Af [ mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com ] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett via Af Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 8:29 AM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons � Half or more have the same Canopy settings. The rest are 802.11 based with some cooperating and some not responding to anything. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com � From: Rory Conaway via Af af@afmug.com To: af@afmug.com Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 10:13:45 AM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons I�m assuming all 12 WISPs cooperate with each other? � Rory � From: Af [ mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com ] On Behalf Of Mike
Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons
You don't have to sync with other vendors or even your competition. It helps, though. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com - Original Message - From: Josh Reynolds via Af af@afmug.com To: af@afmug.com Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 4:28:18 PM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons Need to get something out... Our industry, like many others, doesn't stagnate for long. Right now we're on the edge of a new generation of radio tech, with bitlomat (cross-vendor softwar e with performance gains, gps sync, 802.11ac but down to the PHY layer) ubiquiti (airprism, tdma offloading, *possible* gps sync), and mimosa (too much to list) leading that charge. At least two of those vendors have had working beamforming for several years now (both TX and antenna based). These three are currently workin g on things that are outpacing MikroTik, the ePMP product, and others by anywhere from 1/2 gen to 1 full hardware gen beyond everybody else. I'd guess we're about 1 year off to being able to provide reliable 100Mbps to the home , with 250Mbps (or more) roughly 2-3 years behind that in PtMP, depending on various fa ctors. That said, this is JUST the 802.11ac based stuff. There is at least one vendor up there on that list who will b e manufacturing their own radios soon as well. Vendors will continue to come out with new tech every ~ 3 years. Their tech may be light years ahead of other vendors, and it's very likely they won't play well together in terms of general base tech or GPS sync. Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com On 10/19/2014 02:11 PM, Rory Conaway via Af wrote: Yea, I covered that in one of my articles. I just didn’t see everyone sitting around the campfire singing Kumbya. Another reason I don’t worry about GPS. My next article covers my main reason. Rory From: Af [ mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com ] On Behalf Of Josh Reynolds via Af Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 1:56 PM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons LOL :) Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com On 10/19/2014 08:13 AM, Rory Conaway via Af wrote: blockquote I’m assuming all 12 WISPs cooperate with each other? Rory From: Af [ mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com ] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett via Af Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 5:33 AM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons Entirely not true spoken by a WISP that has up until this point used Mikrotik and Ubiquiti in rural and suburban markets with 12 WISP competitors. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com From: Mark Radabaugh via Af af@afmug.com To: af@afmug.com Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 3:52:03 PM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons And now your completely out of spectrum and can't deploy anything new. I suppose the good part for you is nobody else can do anything given the amount of noise your making. Mark On 10/18/14, 1:27 PM, Josh Reynolds via Af wrote: blockquote You just hit the nail on the head why we have never considered deploying 450 (and similar) in the past: By the time you (relative term) have the cashflow to pay for those sectors, we (another relative term, for people deploying UBNT or similar) have already thrown up 4-6 shielded sectors and at least 10 clients per. If we don' t think we can hit a decent sub density or at least make the site a valuable repeater, then we don't go there. Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com On 10/18/2014 09:01 AM, Kurt Fankhauser via Af wrote: blockquote I prefer sectors too but math doesnt always work out. I'll put the omni in to get the site up and once the customers are there change it to sectors. The 450 platform is very easy to drop sectors in and have the existing clients link right up. I have a couple sites with existing customers i am dropping a two sector 450 system in with 120 segree KP antennas. cant afford any more sectors than that per site right now... Sent from my iPhone Kurt Fankhauser Wavelinc Communications P.O. Box 126 Bucyrus, OH 44820 http://www.wavelinc.com tel. 419-562-6405 fax. 419-617-0110 On Oct 18, 2014, at 11:21 AM, Mike Hammett via Af af@afmug.com wrote: blockquote I've noticed a lot of PMP operators are deploying omnis (presumably because they can't afford 4 APs. Give me TDMA Atheros with sectors over omnis on anything any day. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com From: Kurt Fankhauser via Af af@afmug.com To: af@afmug.com Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 8:38:14 AM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons TJ, No difference between the 3 different frequencies bands (other than NLOS range) as far as the product itself they are all the same animal. 2.4ghz NLOS
Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons
Then you miss out on the best performance. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com - Original Message - From: Rory Conaway via Af af@afmug.com To: af@afmug.com Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 4:33:21 PM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons Ahh, difference of philosophies. I just don’t want my business dependent on competitors or single suppliers. Rory From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Gino Villarini via Af Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 2:27 PM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons So it's Roy against the world of sync Gino A. Villarini @gvillarini On Oct 19, 2014, at 5:20 PM, Rory Conaway via Af af@afmug.com wrote: Yea, I covered that in one of my articles. I just didn’t see everyone sitting around the campfire singing Kumbya. Another reason I don’t worry about GPS. My next article covers my main reason. Rory From: Af [ mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com ] On Behalf Of Josh Reynolds via Af Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 1:56 PM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons LOL :) Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com On 10/19/2014 08:13 AM, Rory Conaway via Af wrote: blockquote I’m assuming all 12 WISPs cooperate with each other? Rory From: Af [ mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com ] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett via Af Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 5:33 AM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons Entirely not true spoken by a WISP that has up until this point used Mikrotik and Ubiquiti in rural and suburban markets with 12 WISP competitors. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com From: Mark Radabaugh via Af af@afmug.com To: af@afmug.com Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 3:52:03 PM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons And now your completely out of spectrum and can't deploy anything new. I suppose the good part for you is nobody else can do anything given the amount of noise your making. Mark On 10/18/14, 1:27 PM, Josh Reynolds via Af wrote: blockquote You just hit the nail on the head why we have never considered deploying 450 (and similar) in the past: By the time you (relative term) have the cashflow to pay for those sectors, we (another relative term, for people deploying UBNT or similar) have already thrown up 4-6 shielded sectors and at least 10 clients per. If we don' t think we can hit a decent sub density or at least make the site a valuable repeater, then we don't go there. Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com On 10/18/2014 09:01 AM, Kurt Fankhauser via Af wrote: blockquote I prefer sectors too but math doesnt always work out. I'll put the omni in to get the site up and once the customers are there change it to sectors. The 450 platform is very easy to drop sectors in and have the existing clients link right up. I have a couple sites with existing customers i am dropping a two sector 450 system in with 120 segree KP antennas. cant afford any more sectors than that per site right now... Sent from my iPhone Kurt Fankhauser Wavelinc Communications P.O. Box 126 Bucyrus, OH 44820 http://www.wavelinc.com tel. 419-562-6405 fax. 419-617-0110 On Oct 18, 2014, at 11:21 AM, Mike Hammett via Af af@afmug.com wrote: blockquote I've noticed a lot of PMP operators are deploying omnis (presumably because they can't afford 4 APs. Give me TDMA Atheros with sectors over omnis on anything any day. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com From: Kurt Fankhauser via Af af@afmug.com To: af@afmug.com Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 8:38:14 AM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons TJ, No difference between the 3 different frequencies bands (other than NLOS range) as far as the product itself they are all the same animal. 2.4ghz NLOS is slightly better than 3.65ghhz. They all function the same and have the same expected throughputs per channel width. They all use the same firmware and i love the interface being the same across all 3. The only major difference is the 5ghz is V/H versus slant on the other two. That just translates to the 5ghz omni being ALOT smaller and lighter. There are some places that i wish the 2.4ghz woulda been V/H because of the omni size but overall I am still very happy with the 2.4ghz 450. Kurt Fankhauser Wavelinc Communications P.O. Box 126 Bucyrus, OH 44820 http://www.wavelinc.com tel. 419-562-6405 fax. 419-617-0110 On Sat, Oct 18, 2014 at 4:57 AM, TJ Trout via Af af@afmug.com wrote: Kurt, Any pros and cons on 450 between 2ghz, 3.65 and 5? Any differences at all? Range vs throughput? Obviously 2ghz penetrates better, 3 is licensed and 5 has more spectrum but anything else? All bands are open for me
Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons
Microcells normally have good SNR. Add 802.11AC into the mix and you have very good performance without the crappy latency hit. Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com http://www.spitwspots.com On 10/19/2014 05:27 PM, Mike Hammett via Af wrote: Then you miss out on the best performance. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com *From: *Rory Conaway via Af af@afmug.com *To: *af@afmug.com *Sent: *Sunday, October 19, 2014 4:33:21 PM *Subject: *Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons Ahh, difference of philosophies. I just don’t want my business dependent on competitors or single suppliers. Rory *From:*Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] *On Behalf Of *Gino Villarini via Af *Sent:* Sunday, October 19, 2014 2:27 PM *To:* af@afmug.com *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons So it's Roy against the world of sync Gino A. Villarini @gvillarini On Oct 19, 2014, at 5:20 PM, Rory Conaway via Af af@afmug.com mailto:af@afmug.com wrote: Yea, I covered that in one of my articles. I just didn’t see everyone sitting around the campfire singing Kumbya. Another reason I don’t worry about GPS. My next article covers my main reason. Rory *From:*Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] *On Behalf Of *Josh Reynolds via Af *Sent:* Sunday, October 19, 2014 1:56 PM *To:* af@afmug.com mailto:af@afmug.com *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons LOL :) Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com http://www.spitwspots.com On 10/19/2014 08:13 AM, Rory Conaway via Af wrote: I’m assuming all 12 WISPs cooperate with each other? Rory *From:*Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] *On Behalf Of *Mike Hammett via Af *Sent:* Sunday, October 19, 2014 5:33 AM *To:* af@afmug.com mailto:af@afmug.com *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons Entirely not true spoken by a WISP that has up until this point used Mikrotik and Ubiquiti in rural and suburban markets with 12 WISP competitors. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com *From: *Mark Radabaugh via Af af@afmug.com mailto:af@afmug.com *To: *af@afmug.com mailto:af@afmug.com *Sent: *Saturday, October 18, 2014 3:52:03 PM *Subject: *Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons And now your completely out of spectrum and can't deploy anything new. I suppose the good part for you is nobody else can do anything given the amount of noise your making. Mark On 10/18/14, 1:27 PM, Josh Reynolds via Af wrote: You just hit the nail on the head why we have never considered deploying 450 (and similar) in the past: By the time you (relative term) have the cashflow to pay for those sectors, we (another relative term, for people deploying UBNT or similar) have already thrown up 4-6 shielded sectors and at least 10 clients per. If we don't think we can hit a decent sub density or at least make the site a valuable repeater, then we don't go there. Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com http://www.spitwspots.com On 10/18/2014 09:01 AM, Kurt Fankhauser via Af wrote: I prefer sectors too but math doesnt always work out. I'll put the omni in to get the site up and once the customers are there change it to sectors. The 450 platform is very easy to drop sectors in and have the existing clients link right up. I have a couple sites with existing customers i am dropping a two sector 450 system in with 120 segree KP antennas. cant afford any more sectors than that per site right now... Sent from my iPhone Kurt Fankhauser Wavelinc Communications P.O. Box 126 Bucyrus, OH 44820 http://www.wavelinc.com tel. 419-562-6405 fax. 419-617-0110 On Oct 18, 2014, at 11:21 AM, Mike Hammett via Af af@afmug.com mailto:af@afmug.com wrote: I've noticed a lot of PMP operators are deploying omnis (presumably because they can't afford 4 APs. Give me TDMA Atheros with sectors over omnis on anything any day. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions
Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons
Maybe RF Elements is onto something with their waveguide port radios, extend using low loss elliptical waveguide and put the radios inside a nice building or enclosure on the ground away from the lighting. From: Paul McCall via Af Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 4:42 PM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons For us, the biggest issue is the replacement cost of the 450. NOT the initial cost, that is what it is, but we are in the lightning capital of the world. Sometimes we can repair everything that gets hit and sometimes on a direct strike, we can’t repair any of it. On most towers, we deploy 5 Ghz and 2.4 Ghz, so 8 APs each. Some are only one frequency band, so then there are only 4. Say those 4 APs are supporting 50 customers at $ 45 each… $ 2250 / month. (most towers are a less than that and some are more). So, if I lose $ 8K in APs ($ 2000 x 4) in one evening, I am looking at least 4 months of lost revenue just to replace those APs (not counting labor, etc.) We have had commercial, well-grounded towers that get hit twice in a season, so that’s 8 months (probably more like 10 months loss in real business terms) per year. That makes NO sense to play that game. And, again, a lot of towers have two frequency bands, thus 8 APs. We have had 4 commercial towers out of 18 with total losses this year on the APs. Thankfully, the used market on 100 series APs is very low cost, so not nearly as big of an impact. So, with ePMP APs (while maybe not as good as 450APs) I can at least cut my losses by 80%. That’s a big deal ! Unfortunately, that reality forces my hands. Paul From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Gino Villarini via Af Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 5:27 PM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons So it's Roy against the world of sync Gino A. Villarini @gvillarini On Oct 19, 2014, at 5:20 PM, Rory Conaway via Af af@afmug.com wrote: Yea, I covered that in one of my articles. I just didn’t see everyone sitting around the campfire singing Kumbya. Another reason I don’t worry about GPS. My next article covers my main reason. Rory From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Josh Reynolds via Af Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 1:56 PM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons LOL :) Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com On 10/19/2014 08:13 AM, Rory Conaway via Af wrote: I’m assuming all 12 WISPs cooperate with each other? Rory From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett via Af Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 5:33 AM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons Entirely not true spoken by a WISP that has up until this point used Mikrotik and Ubiquiti in rural and suburban markets with 12 WISP competitors. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com From: Mark Radabaugh via Af af@afmug.com To: af@afmug.com Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 3:52:03 PM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons And now your completely out of spectrum and can't deploy anything new. I suppose the good part for you is nobody else can do anything given the amount of noise your making. Mark On 10/18/14, 1:27 PM, Josh Reynolds via Af wrote: You just hit the nail on the head why we have never considered deploying 450 (and similar) in the past: By the time you (relative term) have the cashflow to pay for those sectors, we (another relative term, for people deploying UBNT or similar) have already thrown up 4-6 shielded sectors and at least 10 clients per. If we don't think we can hit a decent sub density or at least make the site a valuable repeater, then we don't go there. Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com On 10/18/2014 09:01 AM, Kurt Fankhauser via Af wrote: I prefer sectors too but math doesnt always work out. I'll put the omni in to get the site up and once the customers are there change it to sectors. The 450 platform is very easy to drop sectors in and have the existing clients link right up. I have a couple sites with existing customers i am dropping a two sector 450 system in with 120 segree KP antennas. cant afford any more sectors than that per site right now... Sent from my iPhone Kurt Fankhauser Wavelinc Communications P.O. Box 126 Bucyrus, OH 44820 http://www.wavelinc.com tel. 419-562-6405 fax. 419-617-0110 On Oct 18, 2014, at 11:21 AM, Mike Hammett via Af af@afmug.com wrote: I've noticed a lot of PMP operators
Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons
I’m about to launch a 5 hop PowerBeam Backhaul at 100Mbps with a 150Mbps circuit. We test 3 hops and latency was less than 10ms average with TS-5’s between them. Finishing the next 2 on Tuesday or Wednesday. Been doing it for years so not sure of the management issue. We were in small areas though, not tens of miles across the country side. Rory From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Tyler Treat via Af Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 9:10 PM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons What's your Backhaul strategy for having this many sites. How many hops do you get from fiber? With a ton of small sites, it seems like it would scale to an unmanageable level very quickly...? ___ Mangled by my iPhone. ___ Tyler Treat Corn Belt Technologies, Inc. tyler.tr...@cornbelttech.com ___ On Oct 19, 2014, at 10:52 PM, Rory Conaway via Af af@afmug.com wrote: +1. I’ve already hit CenturyLink’s fastest speeds with anemic little Rocket 5M’s and nothing special. Imagine what happens when the Rocket AC or Mimosa come out with their products. Those features target the urban market where which I’ve seen numbers like 84% of the population is and for the most part, WISPS aren’t. Rory From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Josh Reynolds via Af Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 5:39 PM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons Microcells normally have good SNR. Add 802.11AC into the mix and you have very good performance without the crappy latency hit. Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com On 10/19/2014 05:27 PM, Mike Hammett via Af wrote: Then you miss out on the best performance. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com From: Rory Conaway via Af af@afmug.com mailto:af@afmug.com To: af@afmug.com Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 4:33:21 PM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons Ahh, difference of philosophies. I just don’t want my business dependent on competitors or single suppliers. Rory From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Gino Villarini via Af Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 2:27 PM To: af@afmug.com mailto:af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons So it's Roy against the world of sync Gino A. Villarini @gvillarini On Oct 19, 2014, at 5:20 PM, Rory Conaway via Af af@afmug.com wrote: Yea, I covered that in one of my articles. I just didn’t see everyone sitting around the campfire singing Kumbya. Another reason I don’t worry about GPS. My next article covers my main reason. Rory From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Josh Reynolds via Af Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 1:56 PM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons LOL :) Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com On 10/19/2014 08:13 AM, Rory Conaway via Af wrote: I’m assuming all 12 WISPs cooperate with each other? Rory From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett via Af Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 5:33 AM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons Entirely not true spoken by a WISP that has up until this point used Mikrotik and Ubiquiti in rural and suburban markets with 12 WISP competitors. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http
Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons
At least they are fast replacable ;-)). This products do not arrive before next year. Pricing is not clear. - GENIAS INTERNET -- http://www.genias.net www.genias.net -- Stefan Englhardt Email: mailto:s...@genias.net s...@genias.net Dr. Gesslerstr. 20 D-93051 Regensburg Tel: +49 941 942798-0Fax: +49 941 942798-9 From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Ken Hohhof via Af Sent: Monday, October 20, 2014 7:06 AM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons Maybe RF Elements is onto something with their waveguide port radios, extend using low loss elliptical waveguide and put the radios inside a nice building or enclosure on the ground away from the lighting. From: Paul McCall via Af mailto:af@afmug.com Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 4:42 PM To: af@afmug.com mailto:af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons For us, the biggest issue is the replacement cost of the 450. NOT the initial cost, that is what it is, but we are in the lightning capital of the world. Sometimes we can repair everything that gets hit and sometimes on a direct strike, we can’t repair any of it. On most towers, we deploy 5 Ghz and 2.4 Ghz, so 8 APs each. Some are only one frequency band, so then there are only 4. Say those 4 APs are supporting 50 customers at $ 45 each… $ 2250 / month. (most towers are a less than that and some are more). So, if I lose $ 8K in APs ($ 2000 x 4) in one evening, I am looking at least 4 months of lost revenue just to replace those APs (not counting labor, etc.) We have had commercial, well-grounded towers that get hit twice in a season, so that’s 8 months (probably more like 10 months loss in real business terms) per year. That makes NO sense to play that game. And, again, a lot of towers have two frequency bands, thus 8 APs. We have had 4 commercial towers out of 18 with total losses this year on the APs. Thankfully, the used market on 100 series APs is very low cost, so not nearly as big of an impact. So, with ePMP APs (while maybe not as good as 450APs) I can at least cut my losses by 80%. That’s a big deal ! Unfortunately, that reality forces my hands. Paul From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Gino Villarini via Af Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 5:27 PM To: af@afmug.com mailto:af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons So it's Roy against the world of sync Gino A. Villarini @gvillarini On Oct 19, 2014, at 5:20 PM, Rory Conaway via Af af@afmug.com mailto:af@afmug.com wrote: Yea, I covered that in one of my articles. I just didn’t see everyone sitting around the campfire singing Kumbya. Another reason I don’t worry about GPS. My next article covers my main reason. Rory From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Josh Reynolds via Af Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 1:56 PM To: af@afmug.com mailto:af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons LOL :) Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com http://www.spitwspots.com On 10/19/2014 08:13 AM, Rory Conaway via Af wrote: I’m assuming all 12 WISPs cooperate with each other? Rory From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett via Af Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 5:33 AM To: af@afmug.com mailto:af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons Entirely not true spoken by a WISP that has up until this point used Mikrotik and Ubiquiti in rural and suburban markets with 12 WISP competitors. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com _ From: Mark Radabaugh via Af af@afmug.com mailto:af@afmug.com To: af@afmug.com mailto:af@afmug.com Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 3:52:03 PM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons And now your completely out of spectrum and can't deploy anything new. I suppose the good part for you is nobody else can do anything given the amount of noise your making. Mark On 10/18/14, 1:27 PM, Josh Reynolds via Af wrote: You just hit the nail on the head why we have never considered deploying 450 (and similar) in the past: By the time you (relative term) have the cashflow to pay for those sectors, we (another relative term, for people deploying UBNT or similar) have already thrown up 4-6 shielded sectors and at least 10 clients per. If we don't think we can hit a decent sub density or at least make the site a valuable repeater, then we don't go there. Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com http://www.spitwspots.com On 10/18/2014 09:01 AM, Kurt Fankhauser via Af wrote: I prefer sectors too but math doesnt always work out. I'll put the omni in to get the site up and once the customers are there change it to sectors. The 450 platform is very easy to drop sectors in and have the existing clients link right up. I have a couple sites with existing
Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons
+1. I’ve already hit CenturyLink’s fastest speeds with anemic little Rocket 5M’s and nothing special. Imagine what happens when the Rocket AC or Mimosa come out with their products. Those features target the urban market where which I’ve seen numbers like 84% of the population is and for the most part, WISPS aren’t. Rory From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Josh Reynolds via Af Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 5:39 PM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons Microcells normally have good SNR. Add 802.11AC into the mix and you have very good performance without the crappy latency hit. Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com On 10/19/2014 05:27 PM, Mike Hammett via Af wrote: Then you miss out on the best performance. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com From: Rory Conaway via Af af@afmug.com mailto:af@afmug.com To: af@afmug.com Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 4:33:21 PM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons Ahh, difference of philosophies. I just don’t want my business dependent on competitors or single suppliers. Rory From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Gino Villarini via Af Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 2:27 PM To: af@afmug.com mailto:af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons So it's Roy against the world of sync Gino A. Villarini @gvillarini On Oct 19, 2014, at 5:20 PM, Rory Conaway via Af af@afmug.com wrote: Yea, I covered that in one of my articles. I just didn’t see everyone sitting around the campfire singing Kumbya. Another reason I don’t worry about GPS. My next article covers my main reason. Rory From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Josh Reynolds via Af Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 1:56 PM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons LOL :) Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com On 10/19/2014 08:13 AM, Rory Conaway via Af wrote: I’m assuming all 12 WISPs cooperate with each other? Rory From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett via Af Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 5:33 AM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons Entirely not true spoken by a WISP that has up until this point used Mikrotik and Ubiquiti in rural and suburban markets with 12 WISP competitors. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com From: Mark Radabaugh via Af af@afmug.com To: af@afmug.com Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 3:52:03 PM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons And now your completely out of spectrum and can't deploy anything new. I suppose the good part for you is nobody else can do anything given the amount of noise your making. Mark On 10/18/14, 1:27 PM, Josh Reynolds via Af wrote: You just hit the nail on the head why we have never considered deploying 450 (and similar) in the past: By the time you (relative term) have the cashflow to pay for those sectors, we (another relative term, for people deploying UBNT or similar) have already thrown up 4-6 shielded sectors and at least 10 clients per. If we don't think we can hit a decent sub density or at least make the site a valuable repeater, then we don't go there. Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com On 10/18/2014 09:01 AM, Kurt Fankhauser via Af wrote: I prefer sectors too but math doesnt always work out. I'll put the omni in to get
Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons
I started the spring deploying 450 in 2.4ghz, 5ghz, and 3.65ghz and then middle of the summer deciding i had totry some ePMP because the cost was so low I couldn't resist I can say now that I am fairly certain I will probably stick with the 450. There are many small reasons that when I considered them all i came to this conclusion. Here are my reasons: 1. ePMP latency starts to go up quickly once you have more than 10 clients on an AP. Once you get over 20 clients the latency is pretty much 25-30 ms. Cambium was honest about this at the road tour and they noted if you want the best latency to stick with the 450. 2. Sync between the two platforms is not there yet. If you have adjacent towers on the different platforms that can see each other you won't have sync. 3. No remote spectrum analyzer for clients. This is HUGE for when the clients fire up their wireless camera and baby monitors and trash the whole spectrum. 4.No burst bucket on CPE's 5.EPMP Interface is SLOWWW. Cambium explained at the tour they were offloading alot of processing power to the PC you are viewing the interface with and i can't be taking a quad core machine up a tower to work on these radios and do site surveys. I am working with a Panasonic Toughbook and takes FOREVER to log into the EPMP radios. 6. Fore some reason site surveys are a PITA with ePMP. Think its a combination of many factors here... slow interface one of them... 7. EPMP in 5ghz DFS band has really low power output. Something like 13-14db. When using an omni antenna you can't get maximum legal EIRP out of the ePMP. 8. 450 link tests and SM modulation is pretty stable and predictable. EPMP seems like its all over the place. I don't think I have yet seen EPMP linktest get full up or down outside of a lab environment. There might be other reasons but I'm pretty tired and was heading for bed. Kurt Fankhauser Wavelinc Communications P.O. Box 126 Bucyrus, OH 44820 http://www.wavelinc.com tel. 419-562-6405 fax. 419-617-0110 On Fri, Oct 17, 2014 at 5:05 PM, TJ Trout via Af af@afmug.com wrote: I haven't been keeping real up to date on current generation ptmp offerings but we have a new site going up and I need to decide pretty quickly on some equipment. For the guys who have been using both 450 and epmp do you have any pros and cons ? Any reason to spend the extra money when epmp seems to have the same if not better performance , sync, etc? My gut says 450 is going to be my best long term solution but with all of the positive epmp feedback it's hard to justify the extra money?
Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons
Kurt, Any pros and cons on 450 between 2ghz, 3.65 and 5? Any differences at all? Range vs throughput? Obviously 2ghz penetrates better, 3 is licensed and 5 has more spectrum but anything else? All bands are open for me Thanks On Fri, Oct 17, 2014 at 11:20 PM, Kurt Fankhauser via Af af@afmug.com wrote: I started the spring deploying 450 in 2.4ghz, 5ghz, and 3.65ghz and then middle of the summer deciding i had totry some ePMP because the cost was so low I couldn't resist I can say now that I am fairly certain I will probably stick with the 450. There are many small reasons that when I considered them all i came to this conclusion. Here are my reasons: 1. ePMP latency starts to go up quickly once you have more than 10 clients on an AP. Once you get over 20 clients the latency is pretty much 25-30 ms. Cambium was honest about this at the road tour and they noted if you want the best latency to stick with the 450. 2. Sync between the two platforms is not there yet. If you have adjacent towers on the different platforms that can see each other you won't have sync. 3. No remote spectrum analyzer for clients. This is HUGE for when the clients fire up their wireless camera and baby monitors and trash the whole spectrum. 4.No burst bucket on CPE's 5.EPMP Interface is SLOWWW. Cambium explained at the tour they were offloading alot of processing power to the PC you are viewing the interface with and i can't be taking a quad core machine up a tower to work on these radios and do site surveys. I am working with a Panasonic Toughbook and takes FOREVER to log into the EPMP radios. 6. Fore some reason site surveys are a PITA with ePMP. Think its a combination of many factors here... slow interface one of them... 7. EPMP in 5ghz DFS band has really low power output. Something like 13-14db. When using an omni antenna you can't get maximum legal EIRP out of the ePMP. 8. 450 link tests and SM modulation is pretty stable and predictable. EPMP seems like its all over the place. I don't think I have yet seen EPMP linktest get full up or down outside of a lab environment. There might be other reasons but I'm pretty tired and was heading for bed. Kurt Fankhauser Wavelinc Communications P.O. Box 126 Bucyrus, OH 44820 http://www.wavelinc.com tel. 419-562-6405 fax. 419-617-0110 On Fri, Oct 17, 2014 at 5:05 PM, TJ Trout via Af af@afmug.com wrote: I haven't been keeping real up to date on current generation ptmp offerings but we have a new site going up and I need to decide pretty quickly on some equipment. For the guys who have been using both 450 and epmp do you have any pros and cons ? Any reason to spend the extra money when epmp seems to have the same if not better performance , sync, etc? My gut says 450 is going to be my best long term solution but with all of the positive epmp feedback it's hard to justify the extra money?
Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons
Regarding #7... don't use an omni. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com - Original Message - From: Kurt Fankhauser via Af af@afmug.com To: af@afmug.com Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 1:20:20 AM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons I started the spring deploying 450 in 2.4ghz, 5ghz, and 3.65ghz and then middle of the summer deciding i had totry some ePMP because the cost was so low I couldn't resist I can say now that I am fairly certain I will probably stick with the 450. There are many small reasons that when I considered them all i came to this conclusion. Here are my reasons: 1. ePMP latency starts to go up quickly once you have more than 10 clients on an AP. Once you get over 20 clients the latency is pretty much 25-30 ms. Cambium was honest about this at the road tour and they noted if you want the best latency to stick with the 450. 2. Sync between the two platforms is not there yet. If you have adjacent towers on the different platforms that can see each other you won't have sync. 3. No remote spectrum analyzer for clients. This is HUGE for when the clients fire up their wireless camera and baby monitors and trash the whole spectrum. 4.No burst bucket on CPE's 5.EPMP Interface is SLOWWW. Cambium explained at the tour they were offloading alot of processing power to the PC you are viewing the interface with and i can't be taking a quad core machine up a tower to work on these radios and do site surveys. I am working with a Panasonic Toughbook and takes FOREVER to log into the EPMP radios. 6. Fore some reason site surveys are a PITA with ePMP. Think its a combination of many factors here... slow interface one of them... 7. EPMP in 5ghz DFS band has really low power output. Something like 13-14db. When using an omni antenna you can't get maximum legal EIRP out of the ePMP. 8. 450 link tests and SM modulation is pretty stable and predictable. EPMP seems like its all over the place. I don't think I have yet seen EPMP linktest get full up or down outside of a lab environment. There might be other reasons but I'm pretty tired and was heading for bed. Kurt Fankhauser Wavelinc Communications P.O. Box 126 Bucyrus, OH 44820 http://www.wavelinc.com tel. 419-562-6405 fax. 419-617-0110 On Fri, Oct 17, 2014 at 5:05 PM, TJ Trout via Af af@afmug.com wrote: I haven't been keeping real up to date on current generation ptmp offerings but we have a new site going up and I need to decide pretty quickly on some equipment. For the guys who have been using both 450 and epmp do you have any pros and cons ? Any reason to spend the extra money when epmp seems to have the same if not better performance , sync, etc? My gut says 450 is going to be my best long term solution but with all of the positive epmp feedback it's hard to justify the extra money?
Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons
3 is *NOT* licensed. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com - Original Message - From: TJ Trout via Af af@afmug.com To: af@afmug.com Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 3:57:42 AM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons Kurt, Any pros and cons on 450 between 2ghz, 3.65 and 5? Any differences at all? Range vs throughput? Obviously 2ghz penetrates better, 3 is licensed and 5 has more spectrum but anything else? All bands are open for me Thanks On Fri, Oct 17, 2014 at 11:20 PM, Kurt Fankhauser via Af af@afmug.com wrote: I started the spring deploying 450 in 2.4ghz, 5ghz, and 3.65ghz and then middle of the summer deciding i had totry some ePMP because the cost was so low I couldn't resist I can say now that I am fairly certain I will probably stick with the 450. There are many small reasons that when I considered them all i came to this conclusion. Here are my reasons: 1. ePMP latency starts to go up quickly once you have more than 10 clients on an AP. Once you get over 20 clients the latency is pretty much 25-30 ms. Cambium was honest about this at the road tour and they noted if you want the best latency to stick with the 450. 2. Sync between the two platforms is not there yet. If you have adjacent towers on the different platforms that can see each other you won't have sync. 3. No remote spectrum analyzer for clients. This is HUGE for when the clients fire up their wireless camera and baby monitors and trash the whole spectrum. 4.No burst bucket on CPE's 5.EPMP Interface is SLOWWW. Cambium explained at the tour they were offloading alot of processing power to the PC you are viewing the interface with and i can't be taking a quad core machine up a tower to work on these radios and do site surveys. I am working with a Panasonic Toughbook and takes FOREVER to log into the EPMP radios. 6. Fore some reason site surveys are a PITA with ePMP. Think its a combination of many factors here... slow interface one of them... 7. EPMP in 5ghz DFS band has really low power output. Something like 13-14db. When using an omni antenna you can't get maximum legal EIRP out of the ePMP. 8. 450 link tests and SM modulation is pretty stable and predictable. EPMP seems like its all over the place. I don't think I have yet seen EPMP linktest get full up or down outside of a lab environment. There might be other reasons but I'm pretty tired and was heading for bed. Kurt Fankhauser Wavelinc Communications P.O. Box 126 Bucyrus, OH 44820 http://www.wavelinc.com tel. 419-562-6405 fax. 419-617-0110 On Fri, Oct 17, 2014 at 5:05 PM, TJ Trout via Af af@afmug.com wrote: blockquote I haven't been keeping real up to date on current generation ptmp offerings but we have a new site going up and I need to decide pretty quickly on some equipment. For the guys who have been using both 450 and epmp do you have any pros and cons ? Any reason to spend the extra money when epmp seems to have the same if not better performance , sync, etc? My gut says 450 is going to be my best long term solution but with all of the positive epmp feedback it's hard to justify the extra money? /blockquote
Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons
TJ, No difference between the 3 different frequencies bands (other than NLOS range) as far as the product itself they are all the same animal. 2.4ghz NLOS is slightly better than 3.65ghhz. They all function the same and have the same expected throughputs per channel width. They all use the same firmware and i love the interface being the same across all 3. The only major difference is the 5ghz is V/H versus slant on the other two. That just translates to the 5ghz omni being ALOT smaller and lighter. There are some places that i wish the 2.4ghz woulda been V/H because of the omni size but overall I am still very happy with the 2.4ghz 450. Kurt Fankhauser Wavelinc Communications P.O. Box 126 Bucyrus, OH 44820 http://www.wavelinc.com tel. 419-562-6405 fax. 419-617-0110 On Sat, Oct 18, 2014 at 4:57 AM, TJ Trout via Af af@afmug.com wrote: Kurt, Any pros and cons on 450 between 2ghz, 3.65 and 5? Any differences at all? Range vs throughput? Obviously 2ghz penetrates better, 3 is licensed and 5 has more spectrum but anything else? All bands are open for me Thanks On Fri, Oct 17, 2014 at 11:20 PM, Kurt Fankhauser via Af af@afmug.com wrote: I started the spring deploying 450 in 2.4ghz, 5ghz, and 3.65ghz and then middle of the summer deciding i had totry some ePMP because the cost was so low I couldn't resist I can say now that I am fairly certain I will probably stick with the 450. There are many small reasons that when I considered them all i came to this conclusion. Here are my reasons: 1. ePMP latency starts to go up quickly once you have more than 10 clients on an AP. Once you get over 20 clients the latency is pretty much 25-30 ms. Cambium was honest about this at the road tour and they noted if you want the best latency to stick with the 450. 2. Sync between the two platforms is not there yet. If you have adjacent towers on the different platforms that can see each other you won't have sync. 3. No remote spectrum analyzer for clients. This is HUGE for when the clients fire up their wireless camera and baby monitors and trash the whole spectrum. 4.No burst bucket on CPE's 5.EPMP Interface is SLOWWW. Cambium explained at the tour they were offloading alot of processing power to the PC you are viewing the interface with and i can't be taking a quad core machine up a tower to work on these radios and do site surveys. I am working with a Panasonic Toughbook and takes FOREVER to log into the EPMP radios. 6. Fore some reason site surveys are a PITA with ePMP. Think its a combination of many factors here... slow interface one of them... 7. EPMP in 5ghz DFS band has really low power output. Something like 13-14db. When using an omni antenna you can't get maximum legal EIRP out of the ePMP. 8. 450 link tests and SM modulation is pretty stable and predictable. EPMP seems like its all over the place. I don't think I have yet seen EPMP linktest get full up or down outside of a lab environment. There might be other reasons but I'm pretty tired and was heading for bed. Kurt Fankhauser Wavelinc Communications P.O. Box 126 Bucyrus, OH 44820 http://www.wavelinc.com tel. 419-562-6405 fax. 419-617-0110 On Fri, Oct 17, 2014 at 5:05 PM, TJ Trout via Af af@afmug.com wrote: I haven't been keeping real up to date on current generation ptmp offerings but we have a new site going up and I need to decide pretty quickly on some equipment. For the guys who have been using both 450 and epmp do you have any pros and cons ? Any reason to spend the extra money when epmp seems to have the same if not better performance , sync, etc? My gut says 450 is going to be my best long term solution but with all of the positive epmp feedback it's hard to justify the extra money?
Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons
Kurt, I have some comments inline. From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Kurt Fankhauser via Af Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 2:20 AM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons I started the spring deploying 450 in 2.4ghz, 5ghz, and 3.65ghz and then middle of the summer deciding i had totry some ePMP because the cost was so low I couldn't resist I can say now that I am fairly certain I will probably stick with the 450. There are many small reasons that when I considered them all i came to this conclusion. Here are my reasons: 1. ePMP latency starts to go up quickly once you have more than 10 clients on an AP. Once you get over 20 clients the latency is pretty much 25-30 ms. Cambium was honest about this at the road tour and they noted if you want the best latency to stick with the 450. The BIGGEST factor on ePMP (or any 802.11) is quality installs EVERY time. You cannot have borderline customers (lots of retransmissions in the stats) or you will really hurt the APs ability to do its thing. This is not new to 802.11, but very different from regular Canopy gear. You have to raise your standards of what is acceptable from a SNR and link test capability. Our standard is evolving on this, but if we have a radio performing at less than 50% of maximum capacity, we don’t accept it. We do whatever it takes to get better LOS (or NLOS). 2. Sync between the two platforms is not there yet. If you have adjacent towers on the different platforms that can see each other you won't have sync. Sync is coming Cambium has promised. 3. No remote spectrum analyzer for clients. This is HUGE for when the clients fire up their wireless camera and baby monitors and trash the whole spectrum. Agreed. Remote SA is needed. eDedect does a pretty good job and picking things up and we use Mikrotik routers inside the home to help diagnose Scan/Snoop whats going on inside the home. This has been HUGE for us. 4.No burst bucket on CPE's. Agreed. Though we manage burst / sustained at the head-end 5.EPMP Interface is SLOWWW. Cambium explained at the tour they were offloading alot of processing power to the PC you are viewing the interface with and i can't be taking a quad core machine up a tower to work on these radios and do site surveys. I am working with a Panasonic Toughbook and takes FOREVER to log into the EPMP radios. Agreed. If the PCs would cache the Java libraries that come down to the PC, I think they would solve the problem. I have suggested that o Cambium. 6. Fore some reason site surveys are a PITA with ePMP. Think its a combination of many factors here... slow interface one of them... hmmm… not had an issue… our installers say they are easy. The LEDs’ get you very close, then someone else tweaks them (another tech onsite or remotely from the office. But, yes, the interface could be quicker. 7. EPMP in 5ghz DFS band has really low power output. Something like 13-14db. This has fixed in later firmware versions. When using an omni antenna you can't get maximum legal EIRP out of the ePMP. 8. 450 link tests and SM modulation is pretty stable and predictable. EPMP seems like its all over the place. I don't think I have yet seen EPMP linktest get full up or down outside of a lab environment. We have customers getting 110Mbit aggregate on their link test in the field (UDP of course). There might be other reasons but I'm pretty tired and was heading for bed. Kurt Fankhauser Wavelinc Communications P.O. Box 126 Bucyrus, OH 44820 http://www.wavelinc.comhttp://www.wavelinc.com/ tel. 419-562-6405 fax. 419-617-0110 On Fri, Oct 17, 2014 at 5:05 PM, TJ Trout via Af af@afmug.commailto:af@afmug.com wrote: I haven't been keeping real up to date on current generation ptmp offerings but we have a new site going up and I need to decide pretty quickly on some equipment. For the guys who have been using both 450 and epmp do you have any pros and cons ? Any reason to spend the extra money when epmp seems to have the same if not better performance , sync, etc? My gut says 450 is going to be my best long term solution but with all of the positive epmp feedback it's hard to justify the extra money?
Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons
I've noticed a lot of PMP operators are deploying omnis (presumably because they can't afford 4 APs. Give me TDMA Atheros with sectors over omnis on anything any day. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com - Original Message - From: Kurt Fankhauser via Af af@afmug.com To: af@afmug.com Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 8:38:14 AM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons TJ, No difference between the 3 different frequencies bands (other than NLOS range) as far as the product itself they are all the same animal. 2.4ghz NLOS is slightly better than 3.65ghhz. They all function the same and have the same expected throughputs per channel width. They all use the same firmware and i love the interface being the same across all 3. The only major difference is the 5ghz is V/H versus slant on the other two. That just translates to the 5ghz omni being ALOT smaller and lighter. There are some places that i wish the 2.4ghz woulda been V/H because of the omni size but overall I am still very happy with the 2.4ghz 450. Kurt Fankhauser Wavelinc Communications P.O. Box 126 Bucyrus, OH 44820 http://www.wavelinc.com tel. 419-562-6405 fax. 419-617-0110 On Sat, Oct 18, 2014 at 4:57 AM, TJ Trout via Af af@afmug.com wrote: Kurt, Any pros and cons on 450 between 2ghz, 3.65 and 5? Any differences at all? Range vs throughput? Obviously 2ghz penetrates better, 3 is licensed and 5 has more spectrum but anything else? All bands are open for me Thanks On Fri, Oct 17, 2014 at 11:20 PM, Kurt Fankhauser via Af af@afmug.com wrote: blockquote I started the spring deploying 450 in 2.4ghz, 5ghz, and 3.65ghz and then middle of the summer deciding i had totry some ePMP because the cost was so low I couldn't resist I can say now that I am fairly certain I will probably stick with the 450. There are many small reasons that when I considered them all i came to this conclusion. Here are my reasons: 1. ePMP latency starts to go up quickly once you have more than 10 clients on an AP. Once you get over 20 clients the latency is pretty much 25-30 ms. Cambium was honest about this at the road tour and they noted if you want the best latency to stick with the 450. 2. Sync between the two platforms is not there yet. If you have adjacent towers on the different platforms that can see each other you won't have sync. 3. No remote spectrum analyzer for clients. This is HUGE for when the clients fire up their wireless camera and baby monitors and trash the whole spectrum. 4.No burst bucket on CPE's 5.EPMP Interface is SLOWWW. Cambium explained at the tour they were offloading alot of processing power to the PC you are viewing the interface with and i can't be taking a quad core machine up a tower to work on these radios and do site surveys. I am working with a Panasonic Toughbook and takes FOREVER to log into the EPMP radios. 6. Fore some reason site surveys are a PITA with ePMP. Think its a combination of many factors here... slow interface one of them... 7. EPMP in 5ghz DFS band has really low power output. Something like 13-14db. When using an omni antenna you can't get maximum legal EIRP out of the ePMP. 8. 450 link tests and SM modulation is pretty stable and predictable. EPMP seems like its all over the place. I don't think I have yet seen EPMP linktest get full up or down outside of a lab environment. There might be other reasons but I'm pretty tired and was heading for bed. Kurt Fankhauser Wavelinc Communications P.O. Box 126 Bucyrus, OH 44820 http://www.wavelinc.com tel. 419-562-6405 fax. 419-617-0110 On Fri, Oct 17, 2014 at 5:05 PM, TJ Trout via Af af@afmug.com wrote: blockquote I haven't been keeping real up to date on current generation ptmp offerings but we have a new site going up and I need to decide pretty quickly on some equipment. For the guys who have been using both 450 and epmp do you have any pros and cons ? Any reason to spend the extra money when epmp seems to have the same if not better performance , sync, etc? My gut says 450 is going to be my best long term solution but with all of the positive epmp feedback it's hard to justify the extra money? /blockquote /blockquote
Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons
Afford/justify. Either way I pretty much agree. And I was an omni fanboy. ___ Mangled by my iPhone. ___ Tyler Treat Corn Belt Technologies, Inc. tyler.tr...@cornbelttech.commailto:tyler.tr...@cornbelttech.com ___ On Oct 18, 2014, at 10:21 AM, Mike Hammett via Af af@afmug.commailto:af@afmug.com wrote: I've noticed a lot of PMP operators are deploying omnis (presumably because they can't afford 4 APs. Give me TDMA Atheros with sectors over omnis on anything any day. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com From: Kurt Fankhauser via Af af@afmug.commailto:af@afmug.com To: af@afmug.commailto:af@afmug.com Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 8:38:14 AM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons TJ, No difference between the 3 different frequencies bands (other than NLOS range) as far as the product itself they are all the same animal. 2.4ghz NLOS is slightly better than 3.65ghhz. They all function the same and have the same expected throughputs per channel width. They all use the same firmware and i love the interface being the same across all 3. The only major difference is the 5ghz is V/H versus slant on the other two. That just translates to the 5ghz omni being ALOT smaller and lighter. There are some places that i wish the 2.4ghz woulda been V/H because of the omni size but overall I am still very happy with the 2.4ghz 450. Kurt Fankhauser Wavelinc Communications P.O. Box 126 Bucyrus, OH 44820 http://www.wavelinc.comhttp://www.wavelinc.com/ tel. 419-562-6405 fax. 419-617-0110 On Sat, Oct 18, 2014 at 4:57 AM, TJ Trout via Af af@afmug.commailto:af@afmug.com wrote: Kurt, Any pros and cons on 450 between 2ghz, 3.65 and 5? Any differences at all? Range vs throughput? Obviously 2ghz penetrates better, 3 is licensed and 5 has more spectrum but anything else? All bands are open for me Thanks On Fri, Oct 17, 2014 at 11:20 PM, Kurt Fankhauser via Af af@afmug.commailto:af@afmug.com wrote: I started the spring deploying 450 in 2.4ghz, 5ghz, and 3.65ghz and then middle of the summer deciding i had totry some ePMP because the cost was so low I couldn't resist I can say now that I am fairly certain I will probably stick with the 450. There are many small reasons that when I considered them all i came to this conclusion. Here are my reasons: 1. ePMP latency starts to go up quickly once you have more than 10 clients on an AP. Once you get over 20 clients the latency is pretty much 25-30 ms. Cambium was honest about this at the road tour and they noted if you want the best latency to stick with the 450. 2. Sync between the two platforms is not there yet. If you have adjacent towers on the different platforms that can see each other you won't have sync. 3. No remote spectrum analyzer for clients. This is HUGE for when the clients fire up their wireless camera and baby monitors and trash the whole spectrum. 4.No burst bucket on CPE's 5.EPMP Interface is SLOWWW. Cambium explained at the tour they were offloading alot of processing power to the PC you are viewing the interface with and i can't be taking a quad core machine up a tower to work on these radios and do site surveys. I am working with a Panasonic Toughbook and takes FOREVER to log into the EPMP radios. 6. Fore some reason site surveys are a PITA with ePMP. Think its a combination of many factors here... slow interface one of them... 7. EPMP in 5ghz DFS band has really low power output. Something like 13-14db. When using an omni antenna you can't get maximum legal EIRP out of the ePMP. 8. 450 link tests and SM modulation is pretty stable and predictable. EPMP seems like its all over the place. I don't think I have yet seen EPMP linktest get full up or down outside of a lab environment. There might be other reasons but I'm pretty tired and was heading for bed. Kurt Fankhauser Wavelinc Communications P.O. Box 126 Bucyrus, OH 44820 http://www.wavelinc.comhttp://www.wavelinc.com/ tel. 419-562-6405tel:419-562-6405 fax. 419-617-0110tel:419-617-0110 On Fri, Oct 17, 2014 at 5:05 PM, TJ Trout via Af af@afmug.commailto:af@afmug.com wrote: I haven't been keeping real up to date on current generation ptmp offerings but we have a new site going up and I need to decide pretty quickly on some equipment. For the guys who have been using both 450 and epmp do you have any pros and cons ? Any reason to spend the extra money when epmp seems to have the same if not better performance , sync, etc? My gut says 450 is going to be my best long term solution but with all of the positive epmp feedback it's hard to justify the extra money?
Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons
The four sectors are still cheaper than one 450 on an omni. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com - Original Message - From: Ken Hohhof via Af af@afmug.com To: af@afmug.com Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 10:41:32 AM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons Which problem is easier to fix? You deployed an omni and take rate has been phenomenal and you need more capacity? Or you deployed 4 sectors and only have 5 subs between them? Well, I guess the second one, if the answer is decommission the site and redeploy the equipment. From: Tyler Treat via Af Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 10:28 AM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons Afford/justify. Either way I pretty much agree. And I was an omni fanboy. ___ Mangled by my iPhone. ___ Tyler Treat Corn Belt Technologies, Inc. tyler.tr...@cornbelttech.com ___ On Oct 18, 2014, at 10:21 AM, Mike Hammett via Af af@afmug.com wrote: I've noticed a lot of PMP operators are deploying omnis (presumably because they can't afford 4 APs. Give me TDMA Atheros with sectors over omnis on anything any day. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com - Original Message - From: Kurt Fankhauser via Af af@afmug.com To: af@afmug.com Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 8:38:14 AM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons TJ, No difference between the 3 different frequencies bands (other than NLOS range) as far as the product itself they are all the same animal. 2.4ghz NLOS is slightly better than 3.65ghhz. They all function the same and have the same expected throughputs per channel width. They all use the same firmware and i love the interface being the same across all 3. The only major difference is the 5ghz is V/H versus slant on the other two. That just translates to the 5ghz omni being ALOT smaller and lighter. There are some places that i wish the 2.4ghz woulda been V/H because of the omni size but overall I am still very happy with the 2.4ghz 450. Kurt Fankhauser Wavelinc Communications P.O. Box 126 Bucyrus, OH 44820 http://www.wavelinc.com tel. 419-562-6405 fax. 419-617-0110 On Sat, Oct 18, 2014 at 4:57 AM, TJ Trout via Af af@afmug.com wrote: blockquote Kurt, Any pros and cons on 450 between 2ghz, 3.65 and 5? Any differences at all? Range vs throughput? Obviously 2ghz penetrates better, 3 is licensed and 5 has more spectrum but anything else? All bands are open for me Thanks On Fri, Oct 17, 2014 at 11:20 PM, Kurt Fankhauser via Af af@afmug.com wrote: blockquote I started the spring deploying 450 in 2.4ghz, 5ghz, and 3.65ghz and then middle of the summer deciding i had totry some ePMP because the cost was so low I couldn't resist I can say now that I am fairly certain I will probably stick with the 450. There are many small reasons that when I considered them all i came to this conclusion. Here are my reasons: 1. ePMP latency starts to go up quickly once you have more than 10 clients on an AP. Once you get over 20 clients the latency is pretty much 25-30 ms. Cambium was honest about this at the road tour and they noted if you want the best latency to stick with the 450. 2. Sync between the two platforms is not there yet. If you have adjacent towers on the different platforms that can see each other you won't have sync. 3. No remote spectrum analyzer for clients. This is HUGE for when the clients fire up their wireless camera and baby monitors and trash the whole spectrum. 4.No burst bucket on CPE's 5.EPMP Interface is SLOWWW. Cambium explained at the tour they were offloading alot of processing power to the PC you are viewing the interface with and i can't be taking a quad core machine up a tower to work on these radios and do site surveys. I am working with a Panasonic Toughbook and takes FOREVER to log into the EPMP radios. 6. Fore some reason site surveys are a PITA with ePMP. Think its a combination of many factors here... slow interface one of them... 7. EPMP in 5ghz DFS band has really low power output. Something like 13-14db. When using an omni antenna you can't get maximum legal EIRP out of the ePMP. 8. 450 link tests and SM modulation is pretty stable and predictable. EPMP seems like its all over the place. I don't think I have yet seen EPMP linktest get full up or down outside of a lab environment. There might be other reasons but I'm pretty tired and was heading for bed. Kurt Fankhauser Wavelinc Communications P.O. Box 126 Bucyrus, OH 44820 http://www.wavelinc.com tel. 419-562-6405 fax. 419-617-0110 On Fri, Oct 17, 2014 at 5:05 PM, TJ Trout via Af af@afmug.com wrote: blockquote I haven't been keeping real up to date on current generation ptmp offerings but we have a new site going up and I need to decide
Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons
Huh? are you putting the cheap connectorized CPE on them or the $500 gps sync AP on them? Sent from my iPhone Kurt Fankhauser Wavelinc Communications P.O. Box 126 Bucyrus, OH 44820 http://www.wavelinc.com tel. 419-562-6405 fax. 419-617-0110 On Oct 18, 2014, at 12:04 PM, Mike Hammett via Af af@afmug.com wrote: The four sectors are still cheaper than one 450 on an omni. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com From: Ken Hohhof via Af af@afmug.com To: af@afmug.com Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 10:41:32 AM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons Which problem is easier to fix? You deployed an omni and take rate has been phenomenal and you need more capacity? Or you deployed 4 sectors and only have 5 subs between them? Well, I guess the second one, if the answer is decommission the site and redeploy the equipment. From: Tyler Treat via Af Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 10:28 AM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons Afford/justify. Either way I pretty much agree. And I was an omni fanboy. ___ Mangled by my iPhone. ___ Tyler Treat Corn Belt Technologies, Inc. tyler.tr...@cornbelttech.com ___ On Oct 18, 2014, at 10:21 AM, Mike Hammett via Af af@afmug.com wrote: I've noticed a lot of PMP operators are deploying omnis (presumably because they can't afford 4 APs. Give me TDMA Atheros with sectors over omnis on anything any day. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com From: Kurt Fankhauser via Af af@afmug.com To: af@afmug.com Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 8:38:14 AM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons TJ, No difference between the 3 different frequencies bands (other than NLOS range) as far as the product itself they are all the same animal. 2.4ghz NLOS is slightly better than 3.65ghhz. They all function the same and have the same expected throughputs per channel width. They all use the same firmware and i love the interface being the same across all 3. The only major difference is the 5ghz is V/H versus slant on the other two. That just translates to the 5ghz omni being ALOT smaller and lighter. There are some places that i wish the 2.4ghz woulda been V/H because of the omni size but overall I am still very happy with the 2.4ghz 450. Kurt Fankhauser Wavelinc Communications P.O. Box 126 Bucyrus, OH 44820 http://www.wavelinc.com tel. 419-562-6405 fax. 419-617-0110 On Sat, Oct 18, 2014 at 4:57 AM, TJ Trout via Af af@afmug.com wrote: Kurt, Any pros and cons on 450 between 2ghz, 3.65 and 5? Any differences at all? Range vs throughput? Obviously 2ghz penetrates better, 3 is licensed and 5 has more spectrum but anything else? All bands are open for me Thanks On Fri, Oct 17, 2014 at 11:20 PM, Kurt Fankhauser via Af af@afmug.com wrote: I started the spring deploying 450 in 2.4ghz, 5ghz, and 3.65ghz and then middle of the summer deciding i had totry some ePMP because the cost was so low I couldn't resist I can say now that I am fairly certain I will probably stick with the 450. There are many small reasons that when I considered them all i came to this conclusion. Here are my reasons: 1. ePMP latency starts to go up quickly once you have more than 10 clients on an AP. Once you get over 20 clients the latency is pretty much 25-30 ms. Cambium was honest about this at the road tour and they noted if you want the best latency to stick with the 450. 2. Sync between the two platforms is not there yet. If you have adjacent towers on the different platforms that can see each other you won't have sync. 3. No remote spectrum analyzer for clients. This is HUGE for when the clients fire up their wireless camera and baby monitors and trash the whole spectrum. 4.No burst bucket on CPE's 5.EPMP Interface is SLOWWW. Cambium explained at the tour they were offloading alot of processing power to the PC you are viewing the interface with and i can't be taking a quad core machine up a tower to work on these radios and do site surveys. I am working with a Panasonic Toughbook and takes FOREVER to log into the EPMP radios. 6. Fore some reason site surveys are a PITA with ePMP. Think its a combination of many factors here... slow interface one of them... 7. EPMP in 5ghz DFS band has really low power output. Something like 13-14db. When using an omni antenna you can't get maximum legal EIRP out of the ePMP. 8. 450 link tests and SM modulation is pretty stable and predictable. EPMP seems like its all over the place. I don't think I have yet seen EPMP linktest get full up or down outside of a lab environment. There might be other reasons but I'm pretty tired and was heading for bed. Kurt Fankhauser Wavelinc Communications P.O. Box 126
Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons
Also, Money sense is a factor. If you are determined to do it cheap then go for it. Keep in mind happy customers means faster ROI. If you are looking at a dense population IE Metro then spend the time and money to deploy a system that will scale well and grow as you add tons of subs without having to add more aps and worry about if you are interfering with your self. The 450 is the simple answer for me. 2 cents On 10/17/2014 4:21 PM, Matt Jenkins via Af wrote: Depends on customer density per AP. If you have low (25) density, I would recommend ePMP. Otherwise I would recommend 450. Matthew Jenkins SmarterBroadband m...@sbbinc.net 530.272.4000 On 10/17/2014 02:05 PM, TJ Trout via Af wrote: I haven't been keeping real up to date on current generation ptmp offerings but we have a new site going up and I need to decide pretty quickly on some equipment. For the guys who have been using both 450 and epmp do you have any pros and cons ? Any reason to spend the extra money when epmp seems to have the same if not better performance , sync, etc? My gut says 450 is going to be my best long term solution but with all of the positive epmp feedback it's hard to justify the extra money? --
Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons
Yep and if you give me a hard time I will beat you with a bowling pin. From: Ken Hohhof via Af Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 12:15 PM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons But there’s the stages of where WISPs have historically gotten their customers: 1) People getting Internet for the first time 2) People switching from dialup 3) People switching from DSL 4) People switching from satellite 5) People switching from mobile hotspots 6) People switching from other WISPs who did things on the cheap I guess stage 7 would be deploy fiber and drink everybody’s milkshake. From: Josh Reynolds via Af Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 12:27 PM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons You just hit the nail on the head why we have never considered deploying 450 (and similar) in the past: By the time you (relative term) have the cashflow to pay for those sectors, we (another relative term, for people deploying UBNT or similar) have already thrown up 4-6 shielded sectors and at least 10 clients per. If we don't think we can hit a decent sub density or at least make the site a valuable repeater, then we don't go there. Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com On 10/18/2014 09:01 AM, Kurt Fankhauser via Af wrote: I prefer sectors too but math doesnt always work out. I'll put the omni in to get the site up and once the customers are there change it to sectors. The 450 platform is very easy to drop sectors in and have the existing clients link right up. I have a couple sites with existing customers i am dropping a two sector 450 system in with 120 segree KP antennas. cant afford any more sectors than that per site right now... Sent from my iPhone Kurt Fankhauser Wavelinc Communications P.O. Box 126 Bucyrus, OH 44820 http://www.wavelinc.com tel. 419-562-6405 fax. 419-617-0110 On Oct 18, 2014, at 11:21 AM, Mike Hammett via Af af@afmug.com wrote: I've noticed a lot of PMP operators are deploying omnis (presumably because they can't afford 4 APs. Give me TDMA Atheros with sectors over omnis on anything any day. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com From: Kurt Fankhauser via Af af@afmug.com To: af@afmug.com Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 8:38:14 AM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons TJ, No difference between the 3 different frequencies bands (other than NLOS range) as far as the product itself they are all the same animal. 2.4ghz NLOS is slightly better than 3.65ghhz. They all function the same and have the same expected throughputs per channel width. They all use the same firmware and i love the interface being the same across all 3. The only major difference is the 5ghz is V/H versus slant on the other two. That just translates to the 5ghz omni being ALOT smaller and lighter. There are some places that i wish the 2.4ghz woulda been V/H because of the omni size but overall I am still very happy with the 2.4ghz 450. Kurt Fankhauser Wavelinc Communications P.O. Box 126 Bucyrus, OH 44820 http://www.wavelinc.com tel. 419-562-6405 fax. 419-617-0110 On Sat, Oct 18, 2014 at 4:57 AM, TJ Trout via Af af@afmug.com wrote: Kurt, Any pros and cons on 450 between 2ghz, 3.65 and 5? Any differences at all? Range vs throughput? Obviously 2ghz penetrates better, 3 is licensed and 5 has more spectrum but anything else? All bands are open for me Thanks On Fri, Oct 17, 2014 at 11:20 PM, Kurt Fankhauser via Af af@afmug.com wrote: I started the spring deploying 450 in 2.4ghz, 5ghz, and 3.65ghz and then middle of the summer deciding i had totry some ePMP because the cost was so low I couldn't resist I can say now that I am fairly certain I will probably stick with the 450. There are many small reasons that when I considered them all i came to this conclusion. Here are my reasons: 1. ePMP latency starts to go up quickly once you have more than 10 clients on an AP. Once you get over 20 clients the latency is pretty much 25-30 ms. Cambium was honest about this at the road tour and they noted if you want the best latency to stick with the 450. 2. Sync between the two platforms is not there yet. If you have adjacent towers on the different platforms that can see each other you won't have sync. 3. No remote spectrum analyzer for clients. This is HUGE for when the clients fire up their wireless camera and baby monitors and trash the whole spectrum. 4.No burst bucket on CPE's 5.EPMP Interface is SLOWWW. Cambium explained at the tour they were offloading alot of processing power to the PC you are viewing the interface with and i can't be taking a quad core machine up a tower to work
Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons
And now your completely out of spectrum and can't deploy anything new. I suppose the good part for you is nobody else can do anything given the amount of noise your making. Mark On 10/18/14, 1:27 PM, Josh Reynolds via Af wrote: You just hit the nail on the head why wehave never considered deploying 450 (and similar)in the past: By the time you (relative term) have the cashflow to pay for those sectors, we (another relative term, for people deploying UBNTor similar) have already thrown up 4-6 shielded sectors and at least 10 clients per. If we don't think we can hit a decent sub densityor at least make the site a valuable repeater, then we don't go there. Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com http://www.spitwspots.com On 10/18/2014 09:01 AM, Kurt Fankhauser via Af wrote: I prefer sectors too but math doesnt always work out. I'll put the omni in to get the site up and once the customers are there change it to sectors. The 450 platform is very easy to drop sectors in and have the existing clients link right up. I have a couple sites with existing customers i am dropping a two sector 450 system in with 120 segree KP antennas. cant afford any more sectors than that per site right now... Sent from my iPhone Kurt Fankhauser Wavelinc Communications P.O. Box 126 Bucyrus, OH 44820 http://www.wavelinc.com tel. 419-562-6405 fax. 419-617-0110 On Oct 18, 2014, at 11:21 AM, Mike Hammett via Af af@afmug.com mailto:af@afmug.com wrote: I've noticed a lot of PMP operators are deploying omnis (presumably because they can't afford 4 APs. Give me TDMA Atheros with sectors over omnis on anything any day. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com *From: *Kurt Fankhauser via Af af@afmug.com mailto:af@afmug.com *To: *af@afmug.com mailto:af@afmug.com *Sent: *Saturday, October 18, 2014 8:38:14 AM *Subject: *Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons TJ, No difference between the 3 different frequencies bands (other than NLOS range) as far as the product itself they are all the same animal. 2.4ghz NLOS is slightly better than 3.65ghhz. They all function the same and have the same expected throughputs per channel width. They all use the same firmware and i love the interface being the same across all 3. The only major difference is the 5ghz is V/H versus slant on the other two. That just translates to the 5ghz omni being ALOT smaller and lighter. There are some places that i wish the 2.4ghz woulda been V/H because of the omni size but overall I am still very happy with the 2.4ghz 450. Kurt Fankhauser Wavelinc Communications P.O. Box 126 Bucyrus, OH 44820 http://www.wavelinc.com http://www.wavelinc.com/ tel. 419-562-6405 fax. 419-617-0110 On Sat, Oct 18, 2014 at 4:57 AM, TJ Trout via Af af@afmug.com mailto:af@afmug.com wrote: Kurt, Any pros and cons on 450 between 2ghz, 3.65 and 5? Any differences at all? Range vs throughput? Obviously 2ghz penetrates better, 3 is licensed and 5 has more spectrum but anything else? All bands are open for me Thanks On Fri, Oct 17, 2014 at 11:20 PM, Kurt Fankhauser via Af af@afmug.com mailto:af@afmug.com wrote: I started the spring deploying 450 in 2.4ghz, 5ghz, and 3.65ghz and then middle of the summer deciding i had totry some ePMP because the cost was so low I couldn't resist I can say now that I am fairly certain I will probably stick with the 450. There are many small reasons that when I considered them all i came to this conclusion. Here are my reasons: 1. ePMP latency starts to go up quickly once you have more than 10 clients on an AP. Once you get over 20 clients the latency is pretty much 25-30 ms. Cambium was honest about this at the road tour and they noted if you want the best latency to stick with the 450. 2. Sync between the two platforms is not there yet. If you have adjacent towers on the different platforms that can see each other you won't have sync. 3. No remote spectrum analyzer for clients. This is HUGE for when the clients fire up their wireless camera and baby monitors and trash the whole spectrum. 4.No burst bucket on CPE's 5.EPMP Interface is SLOWWW. Cambium explained at the tour they were offloading alot of processing power to the PC you are viewing the interface with and i can't be taking a quad core machine up a tower to work on these radios and do site surveys. I am working with a Panasonic Toughbook and takes FOREVER to log into the EPMP radios. 6. Fore some reason site surveys are a PITA with ePMP. Think its a combination of many factors here... slow interface one of them... 7. EPMP in 5ghz DFS band has really
Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons
We get all of the above including the latter. On 10/18/2014 1:15 PM, Ken Hohhof via Af wrote: But there’s the stages of where WISPs have historically gotten their customers: 1) People getting Internet for the first time 2) People switching from dialup 3) People switching from DSL 4) People switching from satellite 5) People switching from mobile hotspots 6) People switching from other WISPs who did things on the cheap I guess stage 7 would be deploy fiber and drink everybody’s milkshake. *From:* Josh Reynolds via Af mailto:af@afmug.com *Sent:* Saturday, October 18, 2014 12:27 PM *To:* af@afmug.com mailto:af@afmug.com *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons You just hit the nail on the head why wehave never considered deploying 450 (and similar)in the past: By the time you (relative term) have the cashflow to pay for those sectors, we (another relative term, for people deploying UBNTor similar) have already thrown up 4-6 shielded sectors and at least 10 clients per. If we don't think we can hit a decent sub densityor at least make the site a valuable repeater, then we don't go there. Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com http://www.spitwspots.com On 10/18/2014 09:01 AM, Kurt Fankhauser via Af wrote: I prefer sectors too but math doesnt always work out. I'll put the omni in to get the site up and once the customers are there change it to sectors. The 450 platform is very easy to drop sectors in and have the existing clients link right up. I have a couple sites with existing customers i am dropping a two sector 450 system in with 120 segree KP antennas. cant afford any more sectors than that per site right now... Sent from my iPhone Kurt Fankhauser Wavelinc Communications P.O. Box 126 Bucyrus, OH 44820 http://www.wavelinc.com tel. 419-562-6405 fax. 419-617-0110 On Oct 18, 2014, at 11:21 AM, Mike Hammett via Af af@afmug.com mailto:af@afmug.com wrote: I've noticed a lot of PMP operators are deploying omnis (presumably because they can't afford 4 APs. Give me TDMA Atheros with sectors over omnis on anything any day. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com *From: *Kurt Fankhauser via Af af@afmug.com mailto:af@afmug.com *To: *af@afmug.com mailto:af@afmug.com *Sent: *Saturday, October 18, 2014 8:38:14 AM *Subject: *Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons TJ, No difference between the 3 different frequencies bands (other than NLOS range) as far as the product itself they are all the same animal. 2.4ghz NLOS is slightly better than 3.65ghhz. They all function the same and have the same expected throughputs per channel width. They all use the same firmware and i love the interface being the same across all 3. The only major difference is the 5ghz is V/H versus slant on the other two. That just translates to the 5ghz omni being ALOT smaller and lighter. There are some places that i wish the 2.4ghz woulda been V/H because of the omni size but overall I am still very happy with the 2.4ghz 450. Kurt Fankhauser Wavelinc Communications P.O. Box 126 Bucyrus, OH 44820 http://www.wavelinc.com http://www.wavelinc.com/ tel. 419-562-6405 fax. 419-617-0110 On Sat, Oct 18, 2014 at 4:57 AM, TJ Trout via Af af@afmug.com mailto:af@afmug.com wrote: Kurt, Any pros and cons on 450 between 2ghz, 3.65 and 5? Any differences at all? Range vs throughput? Obviously 2ghz penetrates better, 3 is licensed and 5 has more spectrum but anything else? All bands are open for me Thanks On Fri, Oct 17, 2014 at 11:20 PM, Kurt Fankhauser via Af af@afmug.com mailto:af@afmug.com wrote: I started the spring deploying 450 in 2.4ghz, 5ghz, and 3.65ghz and then middle of the summer deciding i had totry some ePMP because the cost was so low I couldn't resist I can say now that I am fairly certain I will probably stick with the 450. There are many small reasons that when I considered them all i came to this conclusion. Here are my reasons: 1. ePMP latency starts to go up quickly once you have more than 10 clients on an AP. Once you get over 20 clients the latency is pretty much 25-30 ms. Cambium was honest about this at the road tour and they noted if you want the best latency to stick with the 450. 2. Sync between the two platforms is not there yet. If you have adjacent towers on the different platforms that can see each other you won't have sync. 3. No remote spectrum analyzer for clients. This is HUGE for when the clients fire up their wireless camera and baby monitors and trash the whole spectrum. 4.No burst bucket on CPE's 5.EPMP Interface is SLOWWW. Cambium explained at the tour they were offloading alot of processing power to the PC you
Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons
How are you backhauling? On Sat, Oct 18, 2014 at 10:42 PM, TJ Trout t...@voltbb.com wrote: Rory, Do you have any pics of your microcells? how are you mounting them? on houses? Tripod? On Sat, Oct 18, 2014 at 10:15 PM, George Skorup (Cyber Broadcasting) via Af af@afmug.com wrote: But I think you missed Mark's point, or maybe part of it. Synchronizing APs at the same site is also a very big benefit, not just geographic/multi-site. On 10/19/2014 12:07 AM, Josh Reynolds via Af wrote: If we lived in an area where things were flat, you might be right. We're full of hills and valleys, mountains and glaciers. ... but we're not flat, and Rory is doing similar things in his environment by using low-to-the-ground microcells and using the residential structures to create an urban canyon effect. Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com On 10/18/2014 01:52 PM, Mark Radabaugh via Af wrote: And now your completely out of spectrum and can't deploy anything new. I suppose the good part for you is nobody else can do anything given the amount of noise your making. Mark On 10/18/14, 1:27 PM, Josh Reynolds via Af wrote: You just hit the nail on the head why we have never considered deploying 450 (and similar) in the past: By the time you (relative term) have the cashflow to pay for those sectors, we (another relative term, for people deploying UBNT or similar) have already thrown up 4-6 shielded sectors and at least 10 clients per. If we don't think we can hit a decent sub density or at least make the site a valuable repeater, then we don't go there. Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com On 10/18/2014 09:01 AM, Kurt Fankhauser via Af wrote: I prefer sectors too but math doesnt always work out. I'll put the omni in to get the site up and once the customers are there change it to sectors. The 450 platform is very easy to drop sectors in and have the existing clients link right up. I have a couple sites with existing customers i am dropping a two sector 450 system in with 120 segree KP antennas. cant afford any more sectors than that per site right now... Sent from my iPhone Kurt Fankhauser Wavelinc Communications P.O. Box 126 Bucyrus, OH 44820 http://www.wavelinc.com tel. 419-562-6405 fax. 419-617-0110 On Oct 18, 2014, at 11:21 AM, Mike Hammett via Af af@afmug.com wrote: I've noticed a lot of PMP operators are deploying omnis (presumably because they can't afford 4 APs. Give me TDMA Atheros with sectors over omnis on anything any day. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com -- *From: *Kurt Fankhauser via Af af@afmug.com *To: *af@afmug.com *Sent: *Saturday, October 18, 2014 8:38:14 AM *Subject: *Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons TJ, No difference between the 3 different frequencies bands (other than NLOS range) as far as the product itself they are all the same animal. 2.4ghz NLOS is slightly better than 3.65ghhz. They all function the same and have the same expected throughputs per channel width. They all use the same firmware and i love the interface being the same across all 3. The only major difference is the 5ghz is V/H versus slant on the other two. That just translates to the 5ghz omni being ALOT smaller and lighter. There are some places that i wish the 2.4ghz woulda been V/H because of the omni size but overall I am still very happy with the 2.4ghz 450. Kurt Fankhauser Wavelinc Communications P.O. Box 126 Bucyrus, OH 44820 http://www.wavelinc.com tel. 419-562-6405 fax. 419-617-0110 On Sat, Oct 18, 2014 at 4:57 AM, TJ Trout via Af af@afmug.com wrote: Kurt, Any pros and cons on 450 between 2ghz, 3.65 and 5? Any differences at all? Range vs throughput? Obviously 2ghz penetrates better, 3 is licensed and 5 has more spectrum but anything else? All bands are open for me Thanks On Fri, Oct 17, 2014 at 11:20 PM, Kurt Fankhauser via Af af@afmug.com wrote: I started the spring deploying 450 in 2.4ghz, 5ghz, and 3.65ghz and then middle of the summer deciding i had totry some ePMP because the cost was so low I couldn't resist I can say now that I am fairly certain I will probably stick with the 450. There are many small reasons that when I considered them all i came to this conclusion. Here are my reasons: 1. ePMP latency starts to go up quickly once you have more than 10 clients on an AP. Once you get over 20 clients the latency is pretty much 25-30 ms. Cambium was honest about this at the road tour and they noted if you want the best latency to stick with the 450. 2. Sync between the two platforms is not there yet. If you have adjacent towers on the different platforms that can see each other you won't have sync. 3. No remote spectrum analyzer for clients. This is HUGE for when the clients fire up their wireless camera and baby monitors and trash
Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons
Rory, Do you have any pics of your microcells? how are you mounting them? on houses? Tripod? On Sat, Oct 18, 2014 at 10:15 PM, George Skorup (Cyber Broadcasting) via Af af@afmug.com wrote: But I think you missed Mark's point, or maybe part of it. Synchronizing APs at the same site is also a very big benefit, not just geographic/multi-site. On 10/19/2014 12:07 AM, Josh Reynolds via Af wrote: If we lived in an area where things were flat, you might be right. We're full of hills and valleys, mountains and glaciers. ... but we're not flat, and Rory is doing similar things in his environment by using low-to-the-ground microcells and using the residential structures to create an urban canyon effect. Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com On 10/18/2014 01:52 PM, Mark Radabaugh via Af wrote: And now your completely out of spectrum and can't deploy anything new. I suppose the good part for you is nobody else can do anything given the amount of noise your making. Mark On 10/18/14, 1:27 PM, Josh Reynolds via Af wrote: You just hit the nail on the head why we have never considered deploying 450 (and similar) in the past: By the time you (relative term) have the cashflow to pay for those sectors, we (another relative term, for people deploying UBNT or similar) have already thrown up 4-6 shielded sectors and at least 10 clients per. If we don't think we can hit a decent sub density or at least make the site a valuable repeater, then we don't go there. Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com On 10/18/2014 09:01 AM, Kurt Fankhauser via Af wrote: I prefer sectors too but math doesnt always work out. I'll put the omni in to get the site up and once the customers are there change it to sectors. The 450 platform is very easy to drop sectors in and have the existing clients link right up. I have a couple sites with existing customers i am dropping a two sector 450 system in with 120 segree KP antennas. cant afford any more sectors than that per site right now... Sent from my iPhone Kurt Fankhauser Wavelinc Communications P.O. Box 126 Bucyrus, OH 44820 http://www.wavelinc.com tel. 419-562-6405 fax. 419-617-0110 On Oct 18, 2014, at 11:21 AM, Mike Hammett via Af af@afmug.com wrote: I've noticed a lot of PMP operators are deploying omnis (presumably because they can't afford 4 APs. Give me TDMA Atheros with sectors over omnis on anything any day. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com -- *From: *Kurt Fankhauser via Af af@afmug.com *To: *af@afmug.com *Sent: *Saturday, October 18, 2014 8:38:14 AM *Subject: *Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons TJ, No difference between the 3 different frequencies bands (other than NLOS range) as far as the product itself they are all the same animal. 2.4ghz NLOS is slightly better than 3.65ghhz. They all function the same and have the same expected throughputs per channel width. They all use the same firmware and i love the interface being the same across all 3. The only major difference is the 5ghz is V/H versus slant on the other two. That just translates to the 5ghz omni being ALOT smaller and lighter. There are some places that i wish the 2.4ghz woulda been V/H because of the omni size but overall I am still very happy with the 2.4ghz 450. Kurt Fankhauser Wavelinc Communications P.O. Box 126 Bucyrus, OH 44820 http://www.wavelinc.com tel. 419-562-6405 fax. 419-617-0110 On Sat, Oct 18, 2014 at 4:57 AM, TJ Trout via Af af@afmug.com wrote: Kurt, Any pros and cons on 450 between 2ghz, 3.65 and 5? Any differences at all? Range vs throughput? Obviously 2ghz penetrates better, 3 is licensed and 5 has more spectrum but anything else? All bands are open for me Thanks On Fri, Oct 17, 2014 at 11:20 PM, Kurt Fankhauser via Af af@afmug.com wrote: I started the spring deploying 450 in 2.4ghz, 5ghz, and 3.65ghz and then middle of the summer deciding i had totry some ePMP because the cost was so low I couldn't resist I can say now that I am fairly certain I will probably stick with the 450. There are many small reasons that when I considered them all i came to this conclusion. Here are my reasons: 1. ePMP latency starts to go up quickly once you have more than 10 clients on an AP. Once you get over 20 clients the latency is pretty much 25-30 ms. Cambium was honest about this at the road tour and they noted if you want the best latency to stick with the 450. 2. Sync between the two platforms is not there yet. If you have adjacent towers on the different platforms that can see each other you won't have sync. 3. No remote spectrum analyzer for clients. This is HUGE for when the clients fire up their wireless camera and baby monitors and trash the whole spectrum. 4.No burst bucket on CPE's 5.EPMP Interface is SLOWWW. Cambium explained
Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons
We are using Powerbridges and Nanobridges but I’m changing them out for PowerBeams right now. We use RF shields on all of them. Rory From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of TJ Trout via Af Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 10:43 PM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons How are you backhauling? On Sat, Oct 18, 2014 at 10:42 PM, TJ Trout t...@voltbb.com wrote: Rory, Do you have any pics of your microcells? how are you mounting them? on houses? Tripod? On Sat, Oct 18, 2014 at 10:15 PM, George Skorup (Cyber Broadcasting) via Af af@afmug.com wrote: But I think you missed Mark's point, or maybe part of it. Synchronizing APs at the same site is also a very big benefit, not just geographic/multi-site. On 10/19/2014 12:07 AM, Josh Reynolds via Af wrote: If we lived in an area where things were flat, you might be right. We're full of hills and valleys, mountains and glaciers. ... but we're not flat, and Rory is doing similar things in his environment by using low-to-the-ground microcells and using the residential structures to create an urban canyon effect. Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com On 10/18/2014 01:52 PM, Mark Radabaugh via Af wrote: And now your completely out of spectrum and can't deploy anything new. I suppose the good part for you is nobody else can do anything given the amount of noise your making. Mark On 10/18/14, 1:27 PM, Josh Reynolds via Af wrote: You just hit the nail on the head why we have never considered deploying 450 (and similar) in the past: By the time you (relative term) have the cashflow to pay for those sectors, we (another relative term, for people deploying UBNT or similar) have already thrown up 4-6 shielded sectors and at least 10 clients per. If we don't think we can hit a decent sub density or at least make the site a valuable repeater, then we don't go there. Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com On 10/18/2014 09:01 AM, Kurt Fankhauser via Af wrote: I prefer sectors too but math doesnt always work out. I'll put the omni in to get the site up and once the customers are there change it to sectors. The 450 platform is very easy to drop sectors in and have the existing clients link right up. I have a couple sites with existing customers i am dropping a two sector 450 system in with 120 segree KP antennas. cant afford any more sectors than that per site right now... Sent from my iPhone Kurt Fankhauser Wavelinc Communications P.O. Box 126 Bucyrus, OH 44820 http://www.wavelinc.com tel. 419-562-6405 fax. 419-617-0110 On Oct 18, 2014, at 11:21 AM, Mike Hammett via Af af@afmug.com wrote: I've noticed a lot of PMP operators are deploying omnis (presumably because they can't afford 4 APs. Give me TDMA Atheros with sectors over omnis on anything any day. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com From: Kurt Fankhauser via Af af@afmug.com To: af@afmug.com Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 8:38:14 AM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons TJ, No difference between the 3 different frequencies bands (other than NLOS range) as far as the product itself they are all the same animal. 2.4ghz NLOS is slightly better than 3.65ghhz. They all function the same and have the same expected throughputs per channel width. They all use the same firmware and i love the interface being the same across all 3. The only major difference is the 5ghz is V/H versus slant on the other two. That just translates to the 5ghz omni
Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons
I use tripods or sometimes just bolt to refrigeration brackets if they use a frame. I’ll dig some pictures up tomorrow. I have to download them to sort through them. Rory From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of TJ Trout via Af Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 10:43 PM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons Rory, Do you have any pics of your microcells? how are you mounting them? on houses? Tripod? On Sat, Oct 18, 2014 at 10:15 PM, George Skorup (Cyber Broadcasting) via Af af@afmug.com wrote: But I think you missed Mark's point, or maybe part of it. Synchronizing APs at the same site is also a very big benefit, not just geographic/multi-site. On 10/19/2014 12:07 AM, Josh Reynolds via Af wrote: If we lived in an area where things were flat, you might be right. We're full of hills and valleys, mountains and glaciers. ... but we're not flat, and Rory is doing similar things in his environment by using low-to-the-ground microcells and using the residential structures to create an urban canyon effect. Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com On 10/18/2014 01:52 PM, Mark Radabaugh via Af wrote: And now your completely out of spectrum and can't deploy anything new. I suppose the good part for you is nobody else can do anything given the amount of noise your making. Mark On 10/18/14, 1:27 PM, Josh Reynolds via Af wrote: You just hit the nail on the head why we have never considered deploying 450 (and similar) in the past: By the time you (relative term) have the cashflow to pay for those sectors, we (another relative term, for people deploying UBNT or similar) have already thrown up 4-6 shielded sectors and at least 10 clients per. If we don't think we can hit a decent sub density or at least make the site a valuable repeater, then we don't go there. Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com On 10/18/2014 09:01 AM, Kurt Fankhauser via Af wrote: I prefer sectors too but math doesnt always work out. I'll put the omni in to get the site up and once the customers are there change it to sectors. The 450 platform is very easy to drop sectors in and have the existing clients link right up. I have a couple sites with existing customers i am dropping a two sector 450 system in with 120 segree KP antennas. cant afford any more sectors than that per site right now... Sent from my iPhone Kurt Fankhauser Wavelinc Communications P.O. Box 126 Bucyrus, OH 44820 http://www.wavelinc.com tel. 419-562-6405 fax. 419-617-0110 On Oct 18, 2014, at 11:21 AM, Mike Hammett via Af af@afmug.com wrote: I've noticed a lot of PMP operators are deploying omnis (presumably because they can't afford 4 APs. Give me TDMA Atheros with sectors over omnis on anything any day. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com From: Kurt Fankhauser via Af af@afmug.com To: af@afmug.com Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 8:38:14 AM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons TJ, No difference between the 3 different frequencies bands (other than NLOS range) as far as the product itself they are all the same animal. 2.4ghz NLOS is slightly better than 3.65ghhz. They all function the same and have the same expected throughputs per channel width. They all use the same firmware and i love the interface being the same across all 3. The only major difference is the 5ghz is V/H versus slant on the other two. That just translates to the 5ghz omni being ALOT smaller and lighter. There are some places
Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons
They were saying in Albany that they'd tested it with 120 subs, but they wouldn't suggest more than 50. They were touting the number 50 as being about double what you'd normally see suggested for wifi based equipment. How'd you arrive at the number 25? Did you have trouble with it? Depends on customer density per AP. If you have low (25) density, I would recommend ePMP. Otherwise I would recommend 450. Matthew Jenkins SmarterBroadband m...@sbbinc.net 530.272.4000 On 10/17/2014 02:05 PM, TJ Trout via Af wrote: I haven't been keeping real up to date on current generation ptmp offerings but we have a new site going up and I need to decide pretty quickly on some equipment. For the guys who have been using both 450 and epmp do you have any pros and cons ? Any reason to spend the extra money when epmp seems to have the same if not better performance , sync, etc? My gut says 450 is going to be my best long term solution but with all of the positive epmp feedback it's hard to justify the extra money?
Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons
Curious how the bitlomat offering will stack up to ePMP. Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com http://www.spitwspots.com On 10/17/2014 02:27 PM, George Skorup (Cyber Broadcasting) via Af wrote: ePMP is better than all the other wifi based crap. But if you're going to put a couple hundred subs on a tower, use the 450. On 10/17/2014 4:05 PM, TJ Trout via Af wrote: I haven't been keeping real up to date on current generation ptmp offerings but we have a new site going up and I need to decide pretty quickly on some equipment. For the guys who have been using both 450 and epmp do you have any pros and cons ? Any reason to spend the extra money when epmp seems to have the same if not better performance , sync, etc? My gut says 450 is going to be my best long term solution but with all of the positive epmp feedback it's hard to justify the extra money?
