RE: [agi] poll: what do you look for when joining an AGI group?
9. a particular AGI theoryThat is, one that convinces me it's on the right track. Now that you have run this poll, what did you learn from the responses and how are you using this information in your effort? - This list is sponsored by AGIRI: http://www.agiri.org/email To unsubscribe or change your options, please go to: http://v2.listbox.com/member/?member_id=231415user_secret=e9e40a7e
Re: [agi] poll: what do you look for when joining an AGI group?
Hey but it makes for an excellent quote. Facts don't have to be true if they're beautiful or funny! ;-) Sorry Eliezer, but the more famous you become, the more these types of apocryphal facts will surface... most not even vaguely true... You should be proud and happy! To quote Mr Bean 'Well, I enjoyed it anyway.' Eliezer S. Yudkowsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] 06/05/07 4:38 AM Mark Waser wrote: P.S. You missed the time where Eliezer said at Ben's AGI conference that he would sneak out the door before warning others that the room was on fire:-) This absolutely never happened. I absolutely do not say such things, even as a joke, because I understand the logic of the multiplayer iterated prisoner's dilemma - as soon as anyone defects, everyone gets hurt. Some people who did not understand the IPD, and hence could not conceive of my understanding the IPD, made jokes about that because they could not conceive of behaving otherwise in my place. But I never, ever said that, even as a joke, and was saddened but not surprised to hear it. -- Eliezer S. Yudkowsky http://singinst.org/ Research Fellow, Singularity Institute for Artificial Intelligence - This list is sponsored by AGIRI: http://www.agiri.org/email To unsubscribe or change your options, please go to: http://v2.listbox.com/member/?; - This list is sponsored by AGIRI: http://www.agiri.org/email To unsubscribe or change your options, please go to: http://v2.listbox.com/member/?member_id=231415user_secret=e9e40a7e
Re: [agi] poll: what do you look for when joining an AGI group?
Hm. Memory may be tricking me. I did a deeper scan of my mind, and found that the only memory I actually have is that someone at the conference said that they saw I wasn't in the room that morning, and then looked around to see if there was a bomb. I have no memory of the fire thing one way or the other, but it sounds like a plausible distortion of the first event after a few repetitions. Or maybe the intended meaning is that, if I saw a fire in a room, I would leave the room first to make sure of my own safety, and then shout Fire! to warn everyone else? If so, I still don't remember saying that, but it doesn't have the same quality of being the first to defect in an iterated prisoner's dilemma - which is the main thing I feel I need to emphasize heavily that I will not do; no, not even as a joke, because talking about defection encourages people to defect, and I won't be the first to talk about it, either. So I guess the moral is that I shouldn't toss around the word absolutely - even when the point needs some heavy moral emphasis - about events so far in the past. -- Eliezer S. Yudkowsky http://singinst.org/ Research Fellow, Singularity Institute for Artificial Intelligence - This list is sponsored by AGIRI: http://www.agiri.org/email To unsubscribe or change your options, please go to: http://v2.listbox.com/member/?member_id=231415user_secret=e9e40a7e
Re: [agi] poll: what do you look for when joining an AGI group?
This absolutely never happened. I absolutely do not say such things, even as a joke Your recollection is *very* different from mine. My recollection is that you certainly did say it as a joke but that I was *rather* surprised that you would say such a thing even as a joke. If anyone else would like to chime in (since several member's of this list were in attendance) it might be interesting . . . . (or we could go back to the video since it was part of a panel that was videotaped -- if it isn't in the video, I am certainly willing to apologize but I'd be *very* puzzled since I've never had such a vivid recollection be shown to be incorrect before). - This list is sponsored by AGIRI: http://www.agiri.org/email To unsubscribe or change your options, please go to: http://v2.listbox.com/member/?member_id=231415user_secret=e9e40a7e
Re: [agi] poll: what do you look for when joining an AGI group?
# 7 8 9 Money is good, but the overall AGI theory and program plan is the most important aspect. James Ratcliff YKY (Yan King Yin) [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Can people rate the following things? 1. quick $$, ie salary 2. long-term $$, ie shares in a successful corp 3. freedom to do what they want 4. fairness 5. friendly friends 6. the project looks like a winner overall 7. knowing that the project is charitable 8. special AGI features they look for (eg a special type of friendliness, pls specify) 9. a particular AGI theory 10. average level of expertise in the group 11. others? Thanks in advance, it'd be hugely helpful... =) YKY - This list is sponsored by AGIRI: http://www.agiri.org/email To unsubscribe or change your options, please go to: http://v2.listbox.com/member/?; ___ James Ratcliff - http://falazar.com Looking for something... - Get the Yahoo! toolbar and be alerted to new email wherever you're surfing. - This list is sponsored by AGIRI: http://www.agiri.org/email To unsubscribe or change your options, please go to: http://v2.listbox.com/member/?member_id=231415user_secret=e9e40a7e
Re: [agi] poll: what do you look for when joining an AGI group?
I did a deeper scan of my mind, and found that the only memory I actually have is that someone at the conference said that they saw I wasn't in the room that morning, and then looked around to see if there was a bomb. My memory probably was incorrect in terms of substituting fire for bomb (since the effect is much the same). Or maybe the intended meaning is that, if I saw a fire in a room, I would leave the room first to make sure of my own safety, and then shout Fire! to warn everyone else? I believe that that was indeed the context (with the probability that it was bomb instead of fire). about events so far in the past. It wasn't that long ago!:-) - This list is sponsored by AGIRI: http://www.agiri.org/email To unsubscribe or change your options, please go to: http://v2.listbox.com/member/?member_id=231415user_secret=e9e40a7e
Re: [agi] poll: what do you look for when joining an AGI group?
Synergy or win-win between my work and the project i.e. if the project dovetails with what I am doing (or has a better approach). This would require some overlap between the project's architecture and mine. This would also require a clear vision and explicit 'clues' about deliverables/modules (i.e. both code and ideas). I would have to be able to use these (code, idea) *completely* freely as I would deem fit, and would, in return, happily exchange the portions of my work that are relevant to the project. Basically I agree with what the others wrote below - especially Ben. Except I would not work for a company that would aim to retain (exclusive or long-term) commercial rights to AGI design (and thus become rulers of the world :) nor would I accept funding from any source that aims to adopt AGI research outcomes for military purposes. Oh and yes, I'd like to be wealthy (definitely *not* rich and most definitely not famous - see the recent singularity discussion for a rationale on that one) but I already have the things I really need (not having to work for a regular income *would* be nice, tho) = Jean-Paul Justin Corwin wrote: If I had to find a new position tomorrow, I would try to find (or found) a group which I liked what they were 'doing', rather than their opinions, organization, or plans. Mark Waser wrote: important -- 6 which would necessarily include 8 and 9 Matt wrote: 12. A well defined project goal, including test criteria. Ben wrote: The most important thing by far is having an AGI design that seems feasible. For me, wanting to make a thinking machine is a far stronger motivator than wanting to get rich. The main use of being rich is if it helps to more effectively launch a positive Singularity, from my view... Eliezer wrote: Clues. Plural. - This list is sponsored by AGIRI: http://www.agiri.org/email To unsubscribe or change your options, please go to: http://v2.listbox.com/member/?member_id=231415user_secret=e9e40a7e
Re: [agi] poll: what do you look for when joining an AGI group?
provided that I thought they weren't just going to take my code and apply some licence which meant I could no longer use it in the future.. I suspect that I wasn't clear about this . . . . You can always take what is truly your code and do anything you want with it . . . . The problems start when you take the modifications to your code that were made by others or where you take what you call your code which is actually a very minimal change to someone else's massive effort. No one is happy when someone else takes their work, makes a minor tweak, and then outcompetes them. - This list is sponsored by AGIRI: http://www.agiri.org/email To unsubscribe or change your options, please go to: http://v2.listbox.com/member/?member_id=231415user_secret=e9e40a7e
Re: [agi] poll: what do you look for when joining an AGI group?
but I'm not very convinced that the singularity *will* automatically happen.
{IMHO I think the nature of intelligence implies it is not amenable to
simple linear scaling - likely not even log-linear
I share that guess/semi-informed opinion; however, while that means that I
am less afraid of hard-takeoff horribleness, it inflates my fear of someone
taking a Friendly AI and successfully dismantling and misusing the pieces (if
not reconstructing a non-Friendly AGI in their own image) -- and then maybe
winning in a hardware and numbers race.
Mark
P.S. You missed the time where Eliezer said at Ben's AGI conference that he
would sneak out the door before warning others that the room was on fire:-)
-
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RE: [agi] poll: what do you look for when joining an AGI group?
Mark waser writes: P.S. You missed the time where Eliezer said at Ben's AGI conference that he would sneak out the door before warning others that the room was on fire:-) You people making public progress toward AGI are very brave indeed! I wonder if a time will come when the personal security of AGI researchers or conferences will be a real concern. Stopping AGI could be a high priority for existential-risk wingnuts. On a slightly related note, I notice that many (most?) AGI approaches do not include facilities for recursive self-improvement in the sense of giving the AGI access to its base source code and algorithms. I wonder if that approach is inherently safer, as the path to explosive self-improvement becomes much more difficult and unlikely to happen without being noticed. Personally I think that there is little danger that a properly-programmed GameBoy is going to suddenly recursively self-improve itself into a singularity-causing AGI, and the odds of any computer in the next 10 years at least being able to do so are only slightly higher. - This list is sponsored by AGIRI: http://www.agiri.org/email To unsubscribe or change your options, please go to: http://v2.listbox.com/member/?member_id=231415user_secret=e9e40a7e
Re: [agi] poll: what do you look for when joining an AGI group?
On 04/06/07, Derek Zahn [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I wonder if a time will come when the personal security of AGI researchers or conferences will be a real concern. Stopping AGI could be a high priority for existential-risk wingnuts. I think this is the view put forward by Hugo De Garis. I used to regard his views as little more than an amusing sci-fi plot, but more recently I am slowly coming around to the view that there could emerge a rift between those who want to build human-rivaling intelligences and those who don't, probably at first amongst academics then later in the rest of society. I think it's quite possible that todays existential riskers may turn into tomorrows neo-luddite movement. I also think that some of those promoting AI today may switch sides as they see the prospect of a singularity becoming more imminent. - This list is sponsored by AGIRI: http://www.agiri.org/email To unsubscribe or change your options, please go to: http://v2.listbox.com/member/?member_id=231415user_secret=e9e40a7e
Re: [agi] poll: what do you look for when joining an AGI group?
On 6/5/07, Bob Mottram [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think this is the view put forward by Hugo De Garis. I used to regard his views as little more than an amusing sci-fi plot, but more recently I am slowly coming around to the view that there could emerge a rift between those who want to build human-rivaling intelligences and those who don't, probably at first amongst academics then later in the rest of society. I think it's quite possible that todays existential riskers may turn into tomorrows neo-luddite movement. I also think that some of those promoting AI today may switch sides as they see the prospect of a singularity becoming more imminent. On the subject of neo-luddite terrorists, the Unabomber's Manifesto makes for fascinating but chilling reading: http://www.thecourier.com/manifest.htm David - This list is sponsored by AGIRI: http://www.agiri.org/email To unsubscribe or change your options, please go to: http://v2.listbox.com/member/?member_id=231415user_secret=e9e40a7e
Re: [agi] poll: what do you look for when joining an AGI group?
Mark Waser wrote: P.S. You missed the time where Eliezer said at Ben's AGI conference that he would sneak out the door before warning others that the room was on fire:-) This absolutely never happened. I absolutely do not say such things, even as a joke, because I understand the logic of the multiplayer iterated prisoner's dilemma - as soon as anyone defects, everyone gets hurt. Some people who did not understand the IPD, and hence could not conceive of my understanding the IPD, made jokes about that because they could not conceive of behaving otherwise in my place. But I never, ever said that, even as a joke, and was saddened but not surprised to hear it. -- Eliezer S. Yudkowsky http://singinst.org/ Research Fellow, Singularity Institute for Artificial Intelligence - This list is sponsored by AGIRI: http://www.agiri.org/email To unsubscribe or change your options, please go to: http://v2.listbox.com/member/?member_id=231415user_secret=e9e40a7e
Re: [agi] poll: what do you look for when joining an AGI group?
Clues. Plural. -- Eliezer S. Yudkowsky http://singinst.org/ Research Fellow, Singularity Institute for Artificial Intelligence - This list is sponsored by AGIRI: http://www.agiri.org/email To unsubscribe or change your options, please go to: http://v2.listbox.com/member/?member_id=231415user_secret=e9e40a7e
Re: [agi] poll: what do you look for when joining an AGI group?
The most important thing by far is having an AGI design that seems feasible. Only after that (very difficult) requirement is met, do any of the others matter. -- Ben G On 6/3/07, YKY (Yan King Yin) [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Can people rate the following things? 1. quick $$, ie salary 2. long-term $$, ie shares in a successful corp 3. freedom to do what they want 4. fairness 5. friendly friends 6. the project looks like a winner overall 7. knowing that the project is charitable 8. special AGI features they look for (eg a special type of friendliness, pls specify) 9. a particular AGI theory 10. average level of expertise in the group 11. others? Thanks in advance, it'd be hugely helpful... =) YKY -- This list is sponsored by AGIRI: http://www.agiri.org/email To unsubscribe or change your options, please go to: http://v2.listbox.com/member/?; - This list is sponsored by AGIRI: http://www.agiri.org/email To unsubscribe or change your options, please go to: http://v2.listbox.com/member/?member_id=231415user_secret=e9e40a7e
Re: [agi] poll: what do you look for when joining an AGI group?
important -- 6 which would necessarily include 8 and 9 potentially important -- 10 (average level is a poor gauge, if there are sufficient highly-expert/superstar people you can afford an equal number of relatively non-expert people, if you don't have any real superstars, you're dead in the water) unimportant -- 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 7, 11 - Original Message - From: YKY (Yan King Yin) To: agi@v2.listbox.com Sent: Sunday, June 03, 2007 6:04 PM Subject: [agi] poll: what do you look for when joining an AGI group? Can people rate the following things? 1. quick $$, ie salary 2. long-term $$, ie shares in a successful corp 3. freedom to do what they want 4. fairness 5. friendly friends 6. the project looks like a winner overall 7. knowing that the project is charitable 8. special AGI features they look for (eg a special type of friendliness, pls specify) 9. a particular AGI theory 10. average level of expertise in the group 11. others? Thanks in advance, it'd be hugely helpful... =) YKY -- This list is sponsored by AGIRI: http://www.agiri.org/email To unsubscribe or change your options, please go to: http://v2.listbox.com/member/?; - This list is sponsored by AGIRI: http://www.agiri.org/email To unsubscribe or change your options, please go to: http://v2.listbox.com/member/?member_id=231415user_secret=e9e40a7e
Re: [agi] poll: what do you look for when joining an AGI group?
My reasons for joining a2i2 could only be expressed as subportions of 6 and 8 (possibly 9 and 4). I joined largely on the strength of my impression of Peter. My interest in employment was to work as closely as possible on general artificial intelligence, and he wanted me to work for him on precisely that. His opinions on the subject were extremely pragmatic, and focused on what worked. I appreciated that, thinking that so long as I could support my opinions, they would be respected. In retrospect, I doubt I would have joined if I had tried to evaluate a2i2 theoretically from my own design/organizational perspective. Peter and I still do not have identical ideas about AGI(or the business of developing AGI), but I agree about all the specific issues we've dealt with thus far, and I have come to think that the process and resources an organization can bring to bear on it's problems are much more important than the precise design, opinions, or data they have at any given time. If I had to find a new position tomorrow, I would try to find (or found) a group which I liked what they were 'doing', rather than their opinions, organization, or plans. That said, I wouldn't have joined if I hadn't been offered stock or equivalent ownership of the work. Not because of the implied later capital gains, but because I wouldn't want my work effectively contributing to an organization in which I had no formal say or control. I expect Peter will remain the overwhelming majority owner of a2i2 for the foreseeable future, but the responsibility is important to me. -- Justin Corwin [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://outlawpoet.blogspot.com http://www.adaptiveai.com - This list is sponsored by AGIRI: http://www.agiri.org/email To unsubscribe or change your options, please go to: http://v2.listbox.com/member/?member_id=231415user_secret=e9e40a7e
Re: [agi] poll: what do you look for when joining an AGI group?
--- YKY (Yan King Yin) [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Can people rate the following things? 1. quick $$, ie salary 2. long-term $$, ie shares in a successful corp 3. freedom to do what they want 4. fairness 5. friendly friends 6. the project looks like a winner overall 7. knowing that the project is charitable 8. special AGI features they look for (eg a special type of friendliness, pls specify) 9. a particular AGI theory 10. average level of expertise in the group 11. others? 12. A well defined project goal, including test criteria. About 1.5 years ago we discussed optical character recognition, which is not AGI but has some potential short term income, requires solving some prerequisite problems in vision and language modeling, and is feasible on a small budget. However, it went nowhere. YKY, do you want to build AGI or make money? If you try to do both you will get neither. -- Matt Mahoney, [EMAIL PROTECTED] - This list is sponsored by AGIRI: http://www.agiri.org/email To unsubscribe or change your options, please go to: http://v2.listbox.com/member/?member_id=231415user_secret=e9e40a7e
