DIS: Voting at the airport
I spend 50 points to vote AGAINST 364. I spend 50 points to vote AGAINST 364. I spend 50 points to vote AGAINST 364. I spend 50 points to vote AGAINST 364. I transfer the rest of my points to Walker. I invoke judgement on the statement: Proposal 364 was submitted legally. Arguments: It seems to purport to identify the rule to amend at the time of resolution, which is not possible.
Re: DIS: Voting at the airport
Oh, and if anyone is here in the next hour or so (if I remember correctly) and hasn't voted due to apathy, remember that 364 awards the win to a group of players that does not include you, and has had many extra votes cast FOR it. (I hope Walker is here... it's time for my flight :)
DIS: Last minute voting
I spend as many points as I can to purchase extra votes against 364. Walker
Re: DIS: Last minute voting
I also spend as many points as I can to purchase extra votes against 364. And cast those votes.
Re: DIS: Last minute voting
On 29/06/2013 8:05 AM, Elliott Hird wrote: I also spend as many points as I can to purchase extra votes against 364. And cast those votes. I believe you're at least a minute too late. -Dan
DIS: Agora XX: 13th and final report
Good day Agorans, A minor correction to the previous report: woggle (Alex Hunt, ais523 in Agora, who chose someone else's nickname here as part of a counter-scam unrelated to this game) actually got 120 points by Goethe's proposals 358-360. There are three CFJs pending. By rules 213 and 215, I have 24 hours to assign a Judge to a CFJ, and the Judge then has 24 hours to rule. These die on the order paper. I tried my best to resolve the controversy informally for two of them. The third was just called. The first was called by Yally and argues that proposal 364 is invalid, it imposes a punishment worse than losing and therefore violates rule 113. This CFJ has no merit. The second was called by Steve and argues that Blob's forfeiture due to rule 346 was an unfair retroactive application of rule 345 and therefore violates rule 108. I disagree with this, as discussed. And, it becomes a moot question. The third was just called by omd and argues that proposal 364 is invalid by the way it refers to a rule. I don't agree with this either, but we never got a chance to discuss it. I argue now: this is the sort of thing we've been doing all along -- the rule it refers to is specified beforehand, and it's quite clear. In fact this is a necessary concession to (a) having multiple proposals on the table at once and (b) rules getting re-numbered by amendment. Points report: this is the only turn rules 306 and 309 were used, to transfer points and buy votes, respectively. - omd bought an extra vote on 363 - Chuck bought 3 extra votes on 364 - Chuck gave his last 10 points to Steve - Goethe gave 110 points to Steve (as he promised to do for the winner of the scavenger hunt) - Michael bought an extra vote on 364 - Steve bought 5 extra votes on 364 - Goethe bought 3 extra votes on 364 - omd bought 4 extra votes on 364 - omd gave 33 points to Walker - Walker bought 4 extra votes on 364 ehird attempted to buy 2 extra votes on 364, but was just a shade too late. Not that it would matter. And we have a last minute registration, Ørjan. Just in time to lose! So Proposition 363 (omd) fails 4:7 with Walker, omd(x2), and ehird FOR; Steve, Chuck, woggle, Yally, Ørjan, Michael, Goethe AGAINST. omd forfeits, losing the game an infinitessimal instant earlier than most everyone else. Proposition 364 (Steve) passes 17:12 with Steve(x6), Chuck(x4), Ørjan, Michael(x2), and Goethe(x4) FOR; Walker(x5), omd(x5), woggle, and Yally AGAINST. This gives Steve 10 extra points for passing a proposal. Then it amends rule 344, re-instates Blob, and the game ends in a joint win by fiat. There was one new proposal made after my last report, but there was no point in me distributing it. So the final scores were: omd, 0 points FSX, 45 points Walker, 45 points Chuck, 0 points [WON] ehird, 120 points Yally, 120 points Michael, 40 points [WON] scshunt, 171 points Roujo, 45 points Murphy, 125 points [WON] Goethe, 10 points[WON] Steve, 37 points [WON] Blob, 60 points [WON] Tiger, 40 points woggle, 120 points Ørjan, 0 points Then there's me, I was Speaker, and I had 10 points. I hope I have settled any remaining controversy... haha, not likely with you lot eh? Well, we'll just have to resolve it by consensus afterwards. I think the result is clear. In any case, none of the disputed matters raised so far would alter the fact that the game is either over, or frozen. Proposal 363 is the only thing that would have extended the game, and it would not pass under any interpretation. It has been my pleasure to be your Speaker for this bit of fast-paced nonsense. I discharge my last formal duty by including the final ruleset below. I will also post an end-of-game statement, and I encourage other players to do likewise. Thanks for playing guys. And happy birthday Agora! Yours truly, Dan Mehkeri -- Rule 101 (Immutable) All players must always abide by all the rules then in effect, in the form in which they are then in effect. The rules in the Initial Set are in effect at the beginning of the first game. The Initial Set consists of rules 101-116 (immutable) and 201-219 (mutable). History: Initial Immutable Rule 101, Jun. 30 1993 -- Rule 102 (Immutable) Initially rules in the 100's are immutable and rules in the 200's are mutable. Rules subsequently enacted or transmuted (that is, changed from immutable to mutable or vice versa) may be immutable or mutable regardless of their numbers, and rules in the Initial Set may be transmuted regardless of their numbers. History: Initial Immutable Rule 102, Jun. 30 1993 -- Rule 103 (Immutable) At any time, each player shall be either a Voter or the Speaker; no player may simultaneously
Re: DIS: Agora XX: 13th and final report
On 29 June 2013 13:37, Fool fool1...@gmail.com wrote: Alex Hunt what
Re: DIS: Agora XX: 13th and final report
On 29/06/2013 9:18 AM, Elliott Hird wrote: On 29 June 2013 13:37, Foolfool1...@gmail.com wrote: Alex Hunt what SMITH! I MEANT SMITH! ARGH! sorry Alex. :(
DIS: irc session reminder (XX players may be interested)
There will be an irc session in celebration of Agora's birthday in the ##nomic channel on Sunday 30th June (tomorrow) starting at 21:00 UTC. The idea is to have a free flowing chat about Agora, its history and nomic in general between current and former players. I imagine there will also be people wanting to talk about Agora XX. I will also be running a session of high speed nomic over irc. The inital ruleset will be published on this mailing list at the start of the session. Information about the channel and a link to a web client is available on Agora's homepage, agoranomic.org -- Walker
Re: DIS: Agora XX: 13th and final report
On Sat, 29 Jun 2013, Fool wrote: And we have a last minute registration, Ørjan. Just in time to lose! Yay! * resolves to read proposals before voting on them in the future :P Greetings, Ørjan, still an old-timer in spirit.
DIS: You know...
Someone should probably update the agoranomic webpage not to say 2010 everywhere hth. Greetings, Ørjan.
DIS: Informally Happy birthday
Happy birthday, Agora! Greetings, Ørjan.
Re: DIS: Agora XX: 13th and final report
On Sat, 29 Jun 2013, Fool wrote: Proposition 364 (Steve) passes 17:12 with Steve(x6), Chuck(x4), Ørjan, Michael(x2), and Goethe(x4) FOR; Walker(x5), omd(x5), woggle, and Yally AGAINST. This gives Steve 10 extra points for passing a proposal. Then it amends rule 344, re-instates Blob, and the game ends in a joint win by fiat. Kudos to Steve for assembling the team out of retirement, Chuck as the primary strategic architect (hereafter known as The Innocuous Proposals strategy), Blob as the near-spoiler who kept it all interesting, Murphy as the Zen Master of Nomic (Victory via Inaction), and Ørjan in the arrived late to the party but clearly would have been invited category.
Re: DIS: Agora XX: 13th and final report
On Jun 29, 2013, at 8:37 AM, Fool fool1...@gmail.com wrote: Good day Agorans, Ah... one thing. Didn't we have a ruling that proposals do not take effect until the voting results are announced? Since, unless I'm mixing up time zones on my phone, this was sent after 12:04 UTC, the game ended before the proposal could take effect. Who won? (I also disagree with your ruling regarding 364's existence, which would affect the final scores, but I'll get to that after this is clarified. Also, I believe I did not successfully vote twice on 363.) - omd
Re: DIS: Voting at the airport
On Sat, Jun 29, 2013 at 3:08 AM, omd c.ome...@gmail.com wrote: Oh, and if anyone is here in the next hour or so (if I remember correctly) and hasn't voted due to apathy, remember that 364 awards the win to a group of players that does not include you, and has had many extra votes cast FOR it. (I hope Walker is here... it's time for my flight :) I spend all of my points to cast as many extra votes AGAINST 364 as possible.
DIS: Re: BUS: Happy birthday
On Sat, Jun 29, 2013 at 6:52 AM, Sean Hunt scsh...@csclub.uwaterloo.ca wrote: On Sat, Jun 29, 2013 at 8:54 AM, Fool fool1...@gmail.com wrote: Happy birthday Agora! I award myself a Magenta ribbon. I paint myself Magenta to match. I am wearing pants. Happy 20th birthday, Agora! I aware myself a Magenta Ribbon. -scshunt Happy 20th big guy. You've now learned that 20th birthdays suck. But don't worry, we'll get you a crown and a (magenta) sash for the big Two One. Also I award myself a Magenta Ribbon.
Re: DIS: Agora XX: 13th and final report
On 29/06/2013 1:16 PM, com...@gmail.com wrote: On Jun 29, 2013, at 8:37 AM, Foolfool1...@gmail.com wrote: Good day Agorans, Ah... one thing. Didn't we have a ruling that proposals do not take effect until the voting results are announced? Since, unless I'm mixing up time zones on my phone, this was sent after 12:04 UTC, the game ended before the proposal could take effect. Who won? (I also disagree with your ruling regarding 364's existence, which would affect the final scores, but I'll get to that after this is clarified. Also, I believe I did not successfully vote twice on 363.) - omd We had two rulings by Walker and Michael on Chuck's two CFJs. They both ruled FALSE but by somewhat different paths. You might be thinking of Walker's ruling here. The previous version of poor rule 112, much vandalised and abused over its sorry existence, extends the game to allow the final proposals to resolve, and in any case, it didn't actually end the game Was your vote on 363 a deliberate misvote? Does it matter? Okay, the big question, 364. It affects more than the final scores, it affects whether the surviving player with the most points won, or whether the old-timers jointly won. (_Surviving_ player, if that's where you're going with this... proposal 363 failed. No matter what, you lose.) It also affects whether the game is formally over, or just frozen until next year, though likely nobody cares. For comparison, the first two proposals in this game were: 301 (Chuck): I propose that Rule 211 be amended to read: “Voters who voted against proposals which are adopted receive 2 points apiece. Players whose proposals are adopted shall receive a random number of points in the range 1-10 inclusive.” 302 (Walker): I propose that the Rule initially numbered 211 be amended by replacing a random number of points in the range 1-10 inclusive with 10 points. I do admit that, when it comes to this sort of thing, I'm a hanging judge. But that don't mean I'm wrong! Oh, the Lord loves a hangin', that's why E give us necks... -Dan
Re: DIS: Agora XX: 13th and final report
On Sat, Jun 29, 2013 at 4:20 PM, Fool fool1...@gmail.com wrote: The previous version of poor rule 112, much vandalised and abused over its sorry existence, extends the game to allow the final proposals to resolve, and in any case, it didn't actually end the game Ah, my mistake. Was your vote on 363 a deliberate misvote? Does it matter? No... it was a mistake. Okay, the big question, 364. It affects more than the final scores, it affects whether the surviving player with the most points won, or whether the old-timers jointly won. (_Surviving_ player, if that's where you're going with this... proposal 363 failed. No matter what, you lose.) It also affects whether the game is formally over, or just frozen until next year, though likely nobody cares. As I see it, according to the ruleset and your ruling about amending rules that were immutable at the time of submission, the rule to amend and proposed amendment are identified at the time of submission. Both of the submissions you quoted are consistent with that idea: Walker's might have been submitted with the idea that the rule would be identified at the time of resolution, but it can easily be read as an indirect reference effective immediately, and it was submitted before that ruling in any case. However, Steve's wording, I submit the following Proposal: === If there is exactly one Rule which was initially numbered 112, then that Rule is amended to Read: clearly puts the conditional within the proposal, rather than the proposal within the conditional - which would make little sense anyway, as the condition was surely true at the time of submission.
Re: DIS: Ambassador Abuse
On Thu, Jun 27, 2013 at 11:32 PM, Sgeo sgeos...@gmail.com wrote: 3. All communications to Ambassador Abuse are in Ambabusese, but the rules themselves are in English, Now that I have a keyboard, I'll note that this is something like ISIDTID - just because Ambassador Abuse deems certain messages communications to it doesn't mean that they are. The rules of other nomics are to be respected, but they are not binding.
Re: DIS: irc session reminder (XX players may be interested)
On Sat, 29 Jun 2013, Charles Walker wrote: There will be an irc session in celebration of Agora's birthday in the ##nomic channel on Sunday 30th June (tomorrow) starting at 21:00 UTC. I am a little confused by this. Agora's birthday is Sunday 30th June, but in the +1200 (New Zealand) timezone, which does not intersect Sunday 30th June 21:00 UTC. Is this supposed to start at 21:00 UTC during Agora's birthday (in which case it has already started) or at 21:00 UTC during UTC 30th June (in which case it's in a little less than 22 hours)? I guess I should just drop by ##nomic to check :) Greetings, Ørjan.
DIS: Re: BUS: Re: OFF: [Horton] Promise Report
On Sat, Jun 29, 2013 at 4:20 PM, Charles Walker charles.w.wal...@gmail.com wrote: On 29 June 2013 07:31, woggle woggl...@gmail.com wrote: Quantity: 1 Title: (scshunt 2013-06-17 re VCs) Text: I spend a single VC to increase the specified player's VVLOP by one. Author: scshunt Owner: Tree Destruction by author condition: True I transfer this to myself, then cash it, specifying myself. Fails because woggle reported it wrong.
Re: DIS: irc session reminder (XX players may be interested)
On Sat, Jun 29, 2013 at 4:22 PM, Ørjan Johansen oer...@nvg.ntnu.no wrote: On Sat, 29 Jun 2013, Charles Walker wrote: There will be an irc session in celebration of Agora's birthday in the ##nomic channel on Sunday 30th June (tomorrow) starting at 21:00 UTC. I am a little confused by this. Agora's birthday is Sunday 30th June, but in the +1200 (New Zealand) timezone, which does not intersect Sunday 30th June 21:00 UTC. Is this supposed to start at 21:00 UTC during Agora's birthday (in which case it has already started) or at 21:00 UTC during UTC 30th June (in which case it's in a little less than 22 hours)? I guess I should just drop by ##nomic to check :) Greetings, Ørjan. It's not actually on the birthday. It originally was going to be, but I made a mistake when I emailed all the old players in putting the wrong day, and since others said that that date worked better, we just went with it.
Re: DIS: irc session reminder (XX players may be interested)
Much as I'd love to chat with you all over irc, that's 7am Monday morning Melbourne time, so I won't be able to join you :( On 30 June 2013 00:03, Charles Walker charles.w.wal...@gmail.com wrote: There will be an irc session in celebration of Agora's birthday in the ##nomic channel on Sunday 30th June (tomorrow) starting at 21:00 UTC. The idea is to have a free flowing chat about Agora, its history and nomic in general between current and former players. I imagine there will also be people wanting to talk about Agora XX. I will also be running a session of high speed nomic over irc. The inital ruleset will be published on this mailing list at the start of the session. Information about the channel and a link to a web client is available on Agora's homepage, agoranomic.org -- Walker -- Steve Gardner Research Grants Development Faculty of Business and Economics Monash University, Caulfield campus Rm: S8.04 | ph: (613) 9905 2486 e: steven.gard...@monash.edu *** NB I am now working 1.0 FTE, but I am away from my desk** on alternate Thursday afternoons (pay weeks). *** Two facts about lists: (1) one can never remember the last item on any list; (2) I can't remember what the other one is.
Re: DIS: Agora XX: 13th and final report
On 29 June 2013 22:37, Fool fool1...@gmail.com wrote: It has been my pleasure to be your Speaker for this bit of fast-paced nonsense. I discharge my last formal duty by including the final ruleset below. I will also post an end-of-game statement, and I encourage other players to do likewise. Thanks for playing guys. And happy birthday Agora! First of all: Happy 20th Birthday, Agora! Thanks to all the current players of Agora for playing the game and helping it to reach this milestone. Thanks also to the organisers of Agora XX: chiefly (I think) Aaron Goldfein for his message to many former players, and to our most Honourable (now ex-) Speaker Fool, for doing a terrific and meticulous job as Speaker. Thanks to my fellow Old Timers and co-conspirators, Blob, Chuck, Ed, Goethe and Michael. I had great fun conspiring with you. I think in Chuck's case that despite all our (eleven?) years playing together in Agora, this might be the first time we ever worked together on the same side of a conspiracy! Thanks also to Oerjan, for voting for 364 though there was nothing in it for him. Extra thanks to Blob for passing Aaron's message along to me -- for some reason it wasn't sent to me directly. Agora XX is the first nomic of any description I have played since I left Agora in late 2003. I enjoyed it more than I expected to. A very unusual, maybe unique, feature of this game was the combination of the very fast timer and the defined endpoint - almost like over the table play. This made the tactics interesting. Charles Walker, I'd be interested to see you the ruleset you've been working on. Would you mind sending me a copy? I'd be happy to offer you ideas (if I have any ideas) for you to use or ignore as you please. Cheers, Steve -- Steve Gardner Research Grants Development Faculty of Business and Economics Monash University, Caulfield campus Rm: S8.04 | ph: (613) 9905 2486 e: steven.gard...@monash.edu *** NB I am now working 1.0 FTE, but I am away from my desk** on alternate Thursday afternoons (pay weeks). *** Two facts about lists: (1) one can never remember the last item on any list; (2) I can't remember what the other one is.
