Re: DIS: Re: BUS: humble agoran farmer now has a pegleg and an eyepatch

[James Cook via agora-discussion]

> I propose the following Parley:
>
> {
>
> Replace the last sentence (under PARLEY) with:
>
> If a Parley was proposed at least 2 days ago, at least 2/3rds (rounded
> up) of all Pirates consent to its contents, and it has not yet been
> applied, then any Pirate can apply it by announcement, causing this
> contract to be amended according to it.
>
> }
>
> (Motivation: give players a chance to escape if 2/3 try to bind the
> remaining 1/3 to unfavourable terms. I'd prefer 4 days, but starting
> with 2 since it's closer to the current situation.)
>
> - Falsifian

My tally so far:

Consented:
Jason, P.S.S., Falsifian, R. Lee

Not consented:
Cuddlebeam, nch, G.

I think if one more party consents (and nobody joins) the Parley will
be enacted.

- Falsifian

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Agora Birthday

[James Cook via agora-discussion]

On Sun, 14 Jun 2020 at 02:22, Kerim Aydin via agora-discussion
 wrote:
> Proto:  "Registrar's monthly report highlights birthdays coming up in the
> next month."  (or maybe just a suggestion to the registrar :) )

Hm, maybe I will do this.

I thought about it before but didn't, partly because of "Players are
ENCOURAGED to announce their Agoran Birthdays." But people don't seem
to be doing it much so I guess it would make sense to step in.

- Falsifian

DIS: Re: [NoH] Re: BUS: Agora Birthday

[Rebecca via agora-discussion]

Welcome to honourless wormhood

On Mon, Jun 15, 2020 at 1:09 PM James Cook via agora-business <
agora-busin...@agoranomic.org> wrote:

> On Sun, 14 Jun 2020 at 01:25, Jason Cobb via agora-business
>  wrote:
> > On 6/13/20 9:22 PM, Rebecca via agora-business wrote:
> > > I have no idea what exact day I registered for Agora, but I know with
> > > certainty that it was mid-June, 2017 (under the name V.J. Rada). I
> intend
> > > with agoran consent to set my Agoran Birthday at 19 June.
> > >
> >
> > I object. It is known that you registered with message [0], which would
> > set your date of registration to 7 Jun 2017.
> >
> > [0]:
> >
> https://mailman.agoranomic.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/agora-business/2017-June/035041.html
> >
> > --
> > Jason Cobb
>
> Thanks for digging that up. It turns out that was missing from my
> monthly report. I guess it is because this deregistration was not
> recorded there:
>
>
> https://mailman.agoranomic.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/agora-business/2017-August/035517.html
>
> Notice of Honour:
> +1 Jason for setting the record straight.
> -1 Falsifian, on behalf of the office of the Registrar, for bad
> recordkeeping in August 2017.
>
> - Falsifian
>


-- 
>From R. Lee

Re: DIS: [Treasuror] New Report Format

[Reuben Staley via agora-discussion]

On 2020-06-14 12:08, Reuben Staley wrote:
I've gotten this suggestion twice now. I want to mention that this was 
just a test to see if I could get markdown tables working. When I 
publish full reports, I'll actually generate the whole thing and push it


I'm back, nerds!

And with some new toys.

https://agoranomic.org/Treasuror/test

I fleshed out my script so that it can handle an entire weekly report at 
once.


Here's what I generated it from (likely what future textual reports will 
look like):


https://github.com/AgoraNomic/Treasuror/blob/master/forbes493

And here's the script that generated it:

https://github.com/AgoraNomic/Treasuror/blob/master/markdown.awk

Constructive criticism accepted.

--
Trigon

Speaker and Treasuror of Agora; Former Rulekeepor (12 months) and 
Cartographor (8 months) of Agora; Champion of Agora by High Score and 
Proposal; Bearer of the Badge of the Salted Earth; Founder of the League 
of Agorans Facilitating Effective Recordkeeping; Arcadian Revivalist; 
Sixth-Longest Continually Registered Player of Agora; Player and former 
Emperor of BlogNomic; Player, Book-keeper, and Originator of the 
Metaruleset of Infinite Nomic; Contributor to the nomic.club wiki and 
the Talk:Nomic page on Wikipedia.

Re: DIS: Re: OFF: ADoP Initiating Election

[nch via agora-discussion]

On 6/14/20 9:09 PM, Aris Merchant via agora-discussion wrote:
> On Sun, Jun 14, 2020 at 6:44 PM Rebecca via agora-official <
> agora-offic...@agoranomic.org> wrote:
>
>> I initiate an election for ADoP (again) because Murphy wants to contest it.
>>
>> I become a candidate. Campaign pitch: I will actually publish a report
>> weekly and do everything else in a reasonable time because I'm an active
>> player.
>
> I also become a candidate. Campaign pitch: I will make my reports so
> incredibly confusing that no one will ever know who holds which office, let
> alone whether or not e is fulfilling eir official responsibilities. Expect
> me to say lots of things like (for instance, not necessarily true at
> present) "the Assessor is a player whose nickname does not contain the
> letter m and who first registered in September" and "the Rulekeepor's
> weekly report is late if and only if the sum of the final two digits of
> ack(15, 7) odd". All of my reports will be sent directly to players, rather
> than to the list, and designed to trip their spam filters and get sent to
> spam, technically arriving in their technical domain of control. Any other
> measures I can think of, or that the Agoran public may suggest, will be
> employed to frustrate the punishment of delinquent officers. Vote Aris for
> ADoP!
>
> (Intentionally sent to this list. This is a humor piece only.)
>
> -Aris

I nominate Aris against eir will.

-- 
nch
Webmastor, NAX Exchange Manager, Pirate

DIS: Re: OFF: ADoP Initiating Election

[Aris Merchant via agora-discussion]

On Sun, Jun 14, 2020 at 6:44 PM Rebecca via agora-official <
agora-offic...@agoranomic.org> wrote:

> I initiate an election for ADoP (again) because Murphy wants to contest it.
>
> I become a candidate. Campaign pitch: I will actually publish a report
> weekly and do everything else in a reasonable time because I'm an active
> player.


I also become a candidate. Campaign pitch: I will make my reports so
incredibly confusing that no one will ever know who holds which office, let
alone whether or not e is fulfilling eir official responsibilities. Expect
me to say lots of things like (for instance, not necessarily true at
present) "the Assessor is a player whose nickname does not contain the
letter m and who first registered in September" and "the Rulekeepor's
weekly report is late if and only if the sum of the final two digits of
ack(15, 7) odd". All of my reports will be sent directly to players, rather
than to the list, and designed to trip their spam filters and get sent to
spam, technically arriving in their technical domain of control. Any other
measures I can think of, or that the Agoran public may suggest, will be
employed to frustrate the punishment of delinquent officers. Vote Aris for
ADoP!

(Intentionally sent to this list. This is a humor piece only.)

-Aris

DIS: Proto: Simpler ribbon switches

[Edward Murphy via agora-discussion]

Proto-Proposal: Simpler ribbon switches
(AI = 3, co-authors = R. Lee and anyone else who pointed out that Ribbon
switches are implemented weirdly)

Amend Rule 2438 (Ribbons) by replacing this text:

  Ribbon Ownership is a secured person switch, tracked by the
  Tailor in eir monthly report, whose values are the subsets of
  the set of types of Ribbon, defaulting to the empty set. If the
  rules are amended to change the types of Ribbon, if a player's
  Ribbon Ownership is subsequently illegal, then it is updated by
  removing all nonexistent types rather than resetting the entire
  value to default.

  To "award a person a " is to add that type of Ribbon
  to that person's Ribbon Ownership. A person "owns a "
  if that type of Ribbon is an element of eir Ribbon Ownership.

with this text:

  For each type of Ribbon,  Ribbon Ownership is a secured
  negative boolean person switch, tracked by the Tailor in eir
  monthly report.

  To "award a person a " is to flip that person's
   Ribbon Ownership to True. A person "owns a " if eir  Ribbon Ownership is True.

and by replacing this text:

  While a person owns all types of Ribbon, that person can Raise a
  Banner by announcement. This causes that person to win the game.
  That person's Ribbon Ownership becomes the empty set.

with this text:

  While a person owns all types of Ribbon, that person can Raise a
  Banner by announcement. This causes that person to win the game.
  When a person wins this way, for each type of Ribbon, that
  person's  Ribbon Ownership is flipped to False.

For each type of Ribbon, for each person whose Ribbon Ownership prior to
the adoption of this proposal included that type, flip eir 
Ribbon Ownership to True.

Re: DIS: ATTN ADoP

[ATMunn via agora-discussion]

no problem, sorry, time zones i guess. it's evening for me right now

On 6/14/2020 8:11 PM, Rebecca via agora-discussion wrote:

I literally did as soon as I was allowed to and I woke up, chill

On Mon, Jun 15, 2020 at 5:03 AM ATMunn via agora-discussion <
agora-discussion@agoranomic.org> wrote:


hi its been 7 days can the notary election please be resolved thanks

--
ATMunn
future notary here :)






--
ATMunn
friendly neighborhood notary here :)

DIS: Re: BUS: Re: OFF: [ADoP] Election Initiations, also [attn Herald] Notice of Honour

[Rebecca via agora-discussion]

It was already resolved, sorry!

On Mon, Jun 15, 2020 at 7:07 AM Edward Murphy via agora-business <
agora-busin...@agoranomic.org> wrote:

> R. Lee wrote:
>
> > I, the ADoP, initiate elections for the interim offices of ADoP and
> > Webmastor. I become a candidate for ADoP.
>
> I become a candidate for ADoP. (Ineffective if election has already been
> resolved; I still have about a week's worth of a-o to catch up on.)
>
> Notice of Honour:
> -1 Murphy (falling behind again)
> +1 R. Lee (picking up the slack)
>


-- 
>From R. Lee

DIS: Re: BUS: [Ribbons and Glitter] Question about Transparent Ribbons AND Re: OFF: [Assessor] Resolution of Proposals 8409-8430

[Rebecca via agora-discussion]

It says "the number of other types of ribbons", which for sure means 5
different unique ribbons

On Mon, Jun 15, 2020 at 4:59 AM Publius Scribonius Scholasticus via
agora-business  wrote:

> On 6/14/20 1:39 PM, Jason Cobb via agora-official wrote:
> > RESOLUTION OF PROPOSALS 8409-8430
> > =
>
> I earn a Red Ribbon for Proposal 8422. I award myself Orange Glitter for
> Proposal 8422. I earn an Orange Ribbon for Proposal 8430. Ι earn a Lime
> Ribbon for Proposal 8408, 8416, and 8424.
>
> Also, a question about Transparent Ribbons: Does it have to be five
> unique ribbons or could it be five instances of qualification?
>
> --
> 
> Publius Scribonius Scholasticus, Herald, Referee, Tailor, Pirate
> Champion, Badge of the Great Agoran Revival, Badge of the Salted Earth
>


-- 
>From R. Lee

Re: DIS: ATTN ADoP

[Rebecca via agora-discussion]

I literally did as soon as I was allowed to and I woke up, chill

On Mon, Jun 15, 2020 at 5:03 AM ATMunn via agora-discussion <
agora-discussion@agoranomic.org> wrote:

> hi its been 7 days can the notary election please be resolved thanks
>
> --
> ATMunn
> future notary here :)
>


-- 
>From R. Lee

Re: DIS: Re: OFF: [ADoP ] Salaries

[Rebecca via agora-discussion]

On Mon, Jun 15, 2020 at 7:04 AM Edward Murphy via agora-discussion <
agora-discussion@agoranomic.org> wrote:

> R. Lee wrote:
>
> > Salaries
> >
> > I award the following players the following amount of money for their
> > officer reports and assessor resolutions (since Murphy last paid salary).
> > For more information, see the recent events section of my last weekly
> > report. For anyone worried about some players having filed more weekly
> > reports than others in this period, don’t worry, everyone below has
> filed 1
> > per Agoran week in that time, the pay will all be the same in the end.
> >
> > R. Lee: 15 coins (Notary weekly x2, ADoP weekly x1)
> >
> > Murphy: 5 coins (ADoP weekly x1)
> > Aris: 10 coins (Promotor weekly x2)
> >
> > Falsifian: 20 coins (Registrar weekly x3, Registrar monthly x1)
> >
> > PSS: 20 coins (Tailor monthly x1, Referee weekly x1, Herald monthly x1,
> > Herald weekly x1)
> >
> > G.: 5 coins (Arbitor weekly x1)
> >
> > Jason: 10 coins (Assessor Assessments x1, SLR x1)
> >
> > Trigon: 10 coins (Treasuror weekly x2)
> >
> > Nch: 5 coins (Webmastor monthly x1)
>
> Having mostly caught up on my own records, my salary automation script
> picked up the following. Differences (which might be recording errors
> on my part or R. Lee's, I haven't hit up the archives to check):
>* I recorded Falsifian as publishing Registrar weekly x2, not x3
>* I recorded PSS as publishing Tailor monthly x2, not x1
>
> (weekly)
>
> Sun, May 24 2020 (18:00:24) - Murphy published the ADoP's weekly report
> Mon, May 25 2020 (22:01:05) - Aris published the proposal pool
> Tue, May 26 2020 (02:59:08) - R. Lee published the Notary's weekly report
> Sat, May 30 2020 (04:42:24) - Falsifian published the Registrar's weekly
> report
> Sun, May 31 2020 (10:41:22) - PSS published the Referee's weekly report
> Sun, May 31 2020 (10:46:23) - PSS published the Herald's weekly report
> Sun, May 31 2020 (19:23:25) - G. published the Arbitor's weekly report
> Sun, May 31 2020 (22:13:50) - Trigon published the Treasuror's weekly
> report
> Tue, Jun 02 2020 (19:23:30) - Falsifian published the Registrar's weekly
> report
> Wed, Jun 03 2020 (01:48:29) - Aris published the proposal pool
> Wed, Jun 03 2020 (03:05:57) - R. Lee published the Notary's weekly report
> Thu, Jun 04 2020 (23:48:17) - Jason published the Short Logical Ruleset
> Fri, Jun 05 2020 (05:57:47) - Trigon published the Treasuror's weekly
> report
> Sun, Jun 07 2020 (10:07:36) - R. Lee published the ADoP's weekly report
>
> plus the Assessor's first proposal resolution per week since 2020-05-24
> 18:00:24 (patched in manually, not tracked in database)
>
> (monthly)
>
> Sat, May 30 2020 (05:04:28) - Falsifian published the Registrar's
> monthly report
> Sun, May 31 2020 (10:40:06) - PSS published the Herald's monthly report
> Sun, May 31 2020 (10:51:45) - PSS published the Tailor's monthly report
> Mon, Jun 01 2020 (00:32:34) - PSS published the Tailor's monthly report
> Wed, Jun 03 2020 (05:02:09) - nch published the Webmastor's monthly report
>
>
I checked the archives, I am 100% certain that for both differences mine
were correct. For the registrar, Falsifian published the weekly report on a
sunday, a saturday, and then tuesday. For the Tailor PSS didn't publish
reports on both May 31 and Jun 1, because lol
-- 
>From R. Lee

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: [Arbitor] Rewards

[Kerim Aydin via agora-discussion]

I tend to do awards in batches so I don't lose track, this is last week's
batch.  (this week's batch will be awarded before end of next week).

On 6/14/2020 3:59 PM, ATMunn via agora-discussion wrote:
> what about me
> 
> On 6/14/2020 3:41 PM, Kerim Aydin via agora-business wrote:
>>
>> For timely judgements, I grant 5 coins as follows:
>>
>> to nch (#3839 on 14 Jun):  6.317002 days between assignment and judgement
>>
>> to G. (#3840 on 12 Jun):  5.040648 days between assignment and judgement
>>
>> to Jason (#3841 on 11 Jun):  3.903889 days between assignment and judgement
>>
> 

DIS: Re: BUS: [Arbitor] Rewards

[ATMunn via agora-discussion]

what about me

On 6/14/2020 3:41 PM, Kerim Aydin via agora-business wrote:


For timely judgements, I grant 5 coins as follows:

to nch (#3839 on 14 Jun):  6.317002 days between assignment and judgement

to G. (#3840 on 12 Jun):  5.040648 days between assignment and judgement

to Jason (#3841 on 11 Jun):  3.903889 days between assignment and judgement



--
ATMunn
future notary here :)

DIS: Re: BUS: humble agoran farmer’s locker

[ATMunn via agora-discussion]

On 6/14/2020 3:36 PM, Cuddle Beam via agora-business wrote:

Sorry Notary for all of the fuss I’m creating for you.


its fine, my report is only 1,291 lines long :)

--
ATMunn
future notary here :)

DIS: Re: BUS: Re: OFF: [Arbitor] CFJ 3843 Assigned to Murphy

[Cuddle Beam via agora-discussion]

> It seems in the best interests of the game

THERE HE IS

THAT LITTLE GREMLIN CLAUSE IN R217

AGAIN IN THE CFJS

On Sun, Jun 14, 2020 at 11:51 PM Edward Murphy via agora-business <
agora-busin...@agoranomic.org> wrote:

> G. wrote:
>
> > The below CFJ is 3843.  I assign it to Murphy.
> >
> > status: https://faculty.washington.edu/kerim/nomic/cases/#3843
> >
> > ===  CFJ 3843
> ===
> >
> >The Bazinga is a destructible private asset.
> >
> >
> ==
> >
> > Caller:Aris
> > Barred:Cuddlebeam
> >
> > Judge: Murphy
> >
> >
> ==
> >
> > History:
> >
> > Called by Aris:   11 Jun 2020 19:51:32
> > Assigned to Murphy:   [now]
> >
> >
> ==
> >
> > Caller's Evidence:
> >
> > On Thu, Jun 11, 2020 Cuddlbeam wrote:
> >>
> >> I’m unsure how much power we have in “defining an entity” for the
> purposes
> >> of contract-defined Assets, but eh life is short, I’ll give it a shot.
> >> Also, this doesn’t violate DADA, rather, it aims to exploit it seeing
> how
> >> G. was punished for Dark Arts recently. It maybe even has support from
> AIAN
> >> but I have no idea. Anyways baby, let’s go.
> >>
> >>
> >> (About the Bazinga: it didn't exist as gamestate before this contract
> >> existed, right? With that specific name and all, which is a lot
> different
> >> from just the set alone, namelessly. So it exists by virtue of the
> >> contract. That's important for R2166.)
> >>
> >> I create the following contract called “Humble Agoran Moral Tripwire”:
> >>
> >> 
> >>
> >> The set consisting of Cuddlebeam’s Master Switch and Agora’s Ruleset is
> >> defined to be the Bazinga entity. And, of course, there is only one
> >> Bazinga.
> >>
> >> The Bazinga is a destructible asset that can only be owned by Cuddlebeam
> >> and is owned by Cuddlebeam.
> >>
> >> The Bazinga is destroyed whenever any event described in the Big Evil
> List
> >> happens.
> >>
> >> The Big Evil List is:
> >>
> >>
> >> -
> >>
> >> Cuddlebeam’s Karma lowers
> >> -
> >>
> >> Cuddlebeam gains a Blot
> >> -
> >>
> >> Someone casts a vote of anything other than FOR, on any of
> Cuddlebeam’s
> >> Proposals that have their title in all capital letters.
> >> -
> >>
> >> Someone other than Cuddlebeam performs a scam
> >> -
> >>
> >> Someone other than Cuddlebeam uses the trick involving Rule 2617
> and/or
> >> Rule 1698 that this contract employs.
> >> -
> >>
> >> This Contract ceases to exist by means other than Cuddlebeam’s own
> >> Proposals.
> >> -
> >>
> >> This Contract is amended by means other than Cuddlebeam’s own
> actions.
> >> -
> >>
> >> Cuddlebeam ceases to be a Player.
> >>
> >> 
> >>
> >> I submit the following Proposal, AI-1 with the title “HUMBLE AGORAN
> FARMER
> >> WINS THE GAME”:
> >>
> >> Upon enactment of this Proposal, Cuddlebeam wins the game, and “Humble
> >> Agoran Moral Tripwire” is destroyed.
> >
> >
> > Caller's Arguments:
> >
> > CuddleBeam might have succeeded in making the Bazinga a private asset.
> > However, I find no authority in the rules that would allow em to make a
> > private asset that was also another entity (and if e failed to make it an
> > asset at all, that would be why; it depends on whether that failing is
> > separate from the asset creation failing). I find even less authority for
> > making it so that the destruction of an asset could repeal a rule,
> although
> > even if it could this attempt would likely fail because rule changes need
> > to happen in a defined order. Finally, Agora is a Nomic clearly
> intervenes
> > to stop the ruleset from being destroyed.
> >
> > Short version: this clearly doesn't work, but the judge gets to explain
> > exactly why it doesn't work. Have fun, your honor.
> >
> >
> ==
>
> Rule 2166 (Assets), relevant excerpt:
>
>An asset is an entity defined as such by a document that has been
>granted Mint Authority by the Rules (hereafter the asset's backing
>document), and existing solely because its backing document
>defines its existence.
>
> The set {Cuddlebeam's Master Switch, Agora's Ruleset} fails to satisfy
> the second part. Both elements existed independently of HAMT, and so did
> set theory in general, thus the set containing those two elements also
> existed independently of HAMT. The /name/ of that set exists solely
> because HAMT defines it, but that's not the same thing.
>
> FALSE.
>
> For completeness, here's what would happen if that second part was
> missing.
>
> Rule 2166, another relevant exc

DIS: Re: BUS: [Contract] Co Dependents

[nch via agora-discussion]

On 6/14/20 8:53 AM, Rebecca via agora-business wrote:
> I become a party to this contract (I don't own any cards or products lol)'

May our fortunes rise and fall together.

-- 
nch
Webmastor, NAX Exchange Manager, Pirate

Re: DIS: [PSA] Secret Pacts

[Kerim Aydin via agora-discussion]

On 6/14/2020 2:25 PM, Cuddle Beam via agora-discussion wrote:
> This is actually very interesting to me. Why is being able to strictly
> enforce secret deals *even necessary*? In Blognomic, secret alliances are
> rampant but there's never anything formal that forces you to do as the
> alliance tells you to do.
> 
> Instead, people do it because it's an IMMENSE faux pas to betray people.
> Kevan puts into good words why people are so adamant about being honest or
> at least professional to their teammates (
> https://blognomic.com/archive/eff_this_rule_in_particular):

tbh, that's true here too, the penalties to reputation for betrayal are
worse than the actual game penalties.  In a way, it's actually a
force-multiplier on reputation:  "If you betray me I'll drag you through
the courts not for the lousy 2-blot penalty, but so I can show everyone
what a weasel you were".

More positive ways I've seen it used:

- If you're coming up with a complicated multiplayer scam, forcing
yourselves to write it all up as a contract can be clarifying;

- If two parties already have a past history of not trusting each other,
the spirit of "we're self-interested people negotiating in our own best
interests" can actually enforce a bit of trust and mend fences when
everyone then does the right thing;

- Sometimes people genuinely want a secret sub-nomic with gameplay
dynamics and stuff, with the ability to bring it to the courts to sort out
whatever in-contract paradoxes arise.  (in other words, an intellectual
exercise to figure out what was breached where no one's really angry about
it).

But the actual court cases for secret contracts are extremely rare.

> So - even if there ARE mechanics to strictly enforce secret deals, I don't
> think it *actually* changes anything about the problem. Unless it's just a
> cultural Agoran thing where people are way more permissive of being
> backstabbed and betrayed, which I'd find jarring and would love to have
> explained if that's the case.

It's quite the opposite, if you're playing a sub-game where you *want*
backstabbing as part of the play, you usually have to be painfully
explicit or people won't enter into the spirit of it (e.g. "Clause X:  We
expect people to backstab each other in this Tournament and don't take it
personally or carry it into the rest of Agora, please")

-G.

DIS: Re: OFF: [ADoP] Salaries

[Edward Murphy via agora-discussion]

R. Lee wrote:


Salaries

I award the following players the following amount of money for their
officer reports and assessor resolutions . For more information, see the
recent events section of my last weekly report.

R. Lee: 5 coins (ADoP weekly x1)
Aris: 5 coins (Promotor weekly x1)

Falsifian: 5 coins (Registrar weekly x1)

PSS: 10 coins (Referee weekly x1, Herald weekly x1)

G.: 5 coins (Arbitor weekly x1)

Jason: 10 coins (Assessor Assessments x1, SLR x1)

Trigon: 5 coins (Treasuror weekly x1)


More detail from separate records. Everything matches in this set.

Sun, Jun 07 2020 (10:07:36) - R. Lee published the ADoP's weekly report
Sun, Jun 07 2020 (14:52:20) - PSS published the Herald's weekly report
Sun, Jun 07 2020 (14:53:42) - PSS published the Referee's weekly report
Sun, Jun 07 2020 (17:45:10) - G. published the Arbitor's weekly report
Wed, Jun 10 2020 (07:05:58) - Aris published the proposal pool
Thu, Jun 11 2020 (20:05:09) - Falsifian published the Registrar's weekly 
report

Thu, Jun 11 2020 (21:46:41) - Trigon published the Treasuror's weekly report
Sat, Jun 13 2020 (00:22:33) - Jason published the Short Logical Ruleset

plus Assessor's first proposal resolution per week since 2020-06-07 
10:07:36)

Re: DIS: [PSA] Secret Pacts

[Cuddle Beam via agora-discussion]

This is actually very interesting to me. Why is being able to strictly
enforce secret deals *even necessary*? In Blognomic, secret alliances are
rampant but there's never anything formal that forces you to do as the
alliance tells you to do.

Instead, people do it because it's an IMMENSE faux pas to betray people.
Kevan puts into good words why people are so adamant about being honest or
at least professional to their teammates (
https://blognomic.com/archive/eff_this_rule_in_particular):

"But betrayal rarely if ever happens in BlogNomic, because we’re often the
same people playing the same game repeatedly. If I betray you in this
dynasty, I win, but you (and probably others) won’t trust me if I try to
make a secret deal in the next one (or the one after that, if ever again).
As a result, teams can safely shift into the kind of bland alpha-player
routine that you sometimes see in co-op games, where one player calls all
the shots and everyone else just does what they’re told, to get the team to
victory."


So - even if there ARE mechanics to strictly enforce secret deals, I don't
think it *actually* changes anything about the problem. Unless it's just a
cultural Agoran thing where people are way more permissive of being
backstabbed and betrayed, which I'd find jarring and would love to have
explained if that's the case.


On Sun, Jun 14, 2020 at 11:01 PM Aris Merchant via agora-discussion <
agora-discussion@agoranomic.org> wrote:

> I'm going to regret saying this.
>
> I want everyone to remember that you can have a contract with secret terms.
> It can't allow acting on behalf or that sort of thing (in the part of it
> that's secret), but it can impose obligations. You just need to make a
> public contract that refers to another private document for the exact
> obligations being imposed.
>
> I'd also ask that you publish the detailed terms eventually, because never
> knowing what was going on is less fun and leaves a gap in the historical
> record. But that isn't strictly required, just a request on my part.
>
> I figure a fair portion of the reason that this isn't happening right now
> is that this sort of contract is more beneficial in the economic end game.
> But I also suspect that many players have forgotten this is a thing, and as
> the player who formulated the proposal that implemented this policy, I feel
> some responsibility to make sure people remember their options. Plus,
> secret plotting is fun, even if not knowing what's going on is kind of
> infuriating.
>
> -Aris
>

DIS: Re: OFF: [ADoP ] Salaries

[Edward Murphy via agora-discussion]

R. Lee wrote:


Salaries

I award the following players the following amount of money for their
officer reports and assessor resolutions (since Murphy last paid salary).
For more information, see the recent events section of my last weekly
report. For anyone worried about some players having filed more weekly
reports than others in this period, don’t worry, everyone below has filed 1
per Agoran week in that time, the pay will all be the same in the end.

R. Lee: 15 coins (Notary weekly x2, ADoP weekly x1)

Murphy: 5 coins (ADoP weekly x1)
Aris: 10 coins (Promotor weekly x2)

Falsifian: 20 coins (Registrar weekly x3, Registrar monthly x1)

PSS: 20 coins (Tailor monthly x1, Referee weekly x1, Herald monthly x1,
Herald weekly x1)

G.: 5 coins (Arbitor weekly x1)

Jason: 10 coins (Assessor Assessments x1, SLR x1)

Trigon: 10 coins (Treasuror weekly x2)

Nch: 5 coins (Webmastor monthly x1)


Having mostly caught up on my own records, my salary automation script
picked up the following. Differences (which might be recording errors
on my part or R. Lee's, I haven't hit up the archives to check):
  * I recorded Falsifian as publishing Registrar weekly x2, not x3
  * I recorded PSS as publishing Tailor monthly x2, not x1

(weekly)

Sun, May 24 2020 (18:00:24) - Murphy published the ADoP's weekly report
Mon, May 25 2020 (22:01:05) - Aris published the proposal pool
Tue, May 26 2020 (02:59:08) - R. Lee published the Notary's weekly report
Sat, May 30 2020 (04:42:24) - Falsifian published the Registrar's weekly 
report

Sun, May 31 2020 (10:41:22) - PSS published the Referee's weekly report
Sun, May 31 2020 (10:46:23) - PSS published the Herald's weekly report
Sun, May 31 2020 (19:23:25) - G. published the Arbitor's weekly report
Sun, May 31 2020 (22:13:50) - Trigon published the Treasuror's weekly report
Tue, Jun 02 2020 (19:23:30) - Falsifian published the Registrar's weekly 
report

Wed, Jun 03 2020 (01:48:29) - Aris published the proposal pool
Wed, Jun 03 2020 (03:05:57) - R. Lee published the Notary's weekly report
Thu, Jun 04 2020 (23:48:17) - Jason published the Short Logical Ruleset
Fri, Jun 05 2020 (05:57:47) - Trigon published the Treasuror's weekly report
Sun, Jun 07 2020 (10:07:36) - R. Lee published the ADoP's weekly report

plus the Assessor's first proposal resolution per week since 2020-05-24 
18:00:24 (patched in manually, not tracked in database)


(monthly)

Sat, May 30 2020 (05:04:28) - Falsifian published the Registrar's 
monthly report

Sun, May 31 2020 (10:40:06) - PSS published the Herald's monthly report
Sun, May 31 2020 (10:51:45) - PSS published the Tailor's monthly report
Mon, Jun 01 2020 (00:32:34) - PSS published the Tailor's monthly report
Wed, Jun 03 2020 (05:02:09) - nch published the Webmastor's monthly report

DIS: [PSA] Secret Pacts

[Aris Merchant via agora-discussion]

I'm going to regret saying this.

I want everyone to remember that you can have a contract with secret terms.
It can't allow acting on behalf or that sort of thing (in the part of it
that's secret), but it can impose obligations. You just need to make a
public contract that refers to another private document for the exact
obligations being imposed.

I'd also ask that you publish the detailed terms eventually, because never
knowing what was going on is less fun and leaves a gap in the historical
record. But that isn't strictly required, just a request on my part.

I figure a fair portion of the reason that this isn't happening right now
is that this sort of contract is more beneficial in the economic end game.
But I also suspect that many players have forgotten this is a thing, and as
the player who formulated the proposal that implemented this policy, I feel
some responsibility to make sure people remember their options. Plus,
secret plotting is fun, even if not knowing what's going on is kind of
infuriating.

-Aris

Re: BUS: Re: DIS: Who is aiming for Victory Cards/Points?

[Cuddle Beam via agora-discussion]

I aim for commerce and I don’t think it’s that disastrous personally
because of how telegraphed it is. Its like if winter for the Vikings were
disastrous - no, not really, you can’t plant crops and stuff but you
prepare with salted stuff and whatnot. Everyone (should) know that a reset
is looming. So its not too big of a deal. At least that’s how I see it.

On Sunday, June 14, 2020, Kerim Aydin via agora-discussion <
agora-discussion@agoranomic.org> wrote:

>
> Cuddlebeam wrote:
> > G. wrote:
> >> Cuddlebeam wrote:
> >>> Small survey for who is aiming for Victory Cards/Points because
> barring a
> >>> scam surprising us, it’s going to be way harder to win if someone has
> to
> >>> compete with someone else to get that 20 VP margin.
> >>>
> >>> I personally would like to aim for VPs, but if anyone else is, I don’t
> >> mind
> >>> making a deal with them or just conceding the race in exchange for
> coins
> >> or
> >>> other stuff.
> >>>
> >>
> >> The fact that a VP win resets the whole economy means there may be
> >> significant pressure to stop it even from those who aren't trying to
> win.
> >> "Winning" by VPs is effectively economic revolution (destroys any
> existing
> >> oligarchy and makes everyone equal again).
> >>
> >> (I'm not committing to any strategy personally right now, just pointing
> >> that out - far to early to commit to a particular strategy).
> >
> > Not the whole economy? It doesn’t reset Coins or cross-reset debts in
> > Contracts
> If I were a trader or trying to run a trading system, having assets
> destroyed when there's outstanding debts sounds like a nightmare.  If I
> doing that, I'd be actively going for stability by destroying every VC/VP
> I could lay my hands on (and I'd better have some "in case of win"
> language in my contract).
>
> This could be interesting...
>
>

Re: BUS: Re: DIS: Who is aiming for Victory Cards/Points?

[Kerim Aydin via agora-discussion]

Cuddlebeam wrote:
> G. wrote:
>> Cuddlebeam wrote:
>>> Small survey for who is aiming for Victory Cards/Points because barring a
>>> scam surprising us, it’s going to be way harder to win if someone has to
>>> compete with someone else to get that 20 VP margin.
>>>
>>> I personally would like to aim for VPs, but if anyone else is, I don’t
>> mind
>>> making a deal with them or just conceding the race in exchange for coins
>> or
>>> other stuff.
>>>
>>
>> The fact that a VP win resets the whole economy means there may be
>> significant pressure to stop it even from those who aren't trying to win.
>> "Winning" by VPs is effectively economic revolution (destroys any existing
>> oligarchy and makes everyone equal again).
>>
>> (I'm not committing to any strategy personally right now, just pointing
>> that out - far to early to commit to a particular strategy).
>
> Not the whole economy? It doesn’t reset Coins or cross-reset debts in
> Contracts
If I were a trader or trying to run a trading system, having assets
destroyed when there's outstanding debts sounds like a nightmare.  If I
doing that, I'd be actively going for stability by destroying every VC/VP
I could lay my hands on (and I'd better have some "in case of win"
language in my contract).

This could be interesting...

Re: DIS: Who is aiming for Victory Cards/Points?

[Kerim Aydin via agora-discussion]

On 6/14/2020 12:15 PM, Cuddle Beam via agora-discussion wrote:
> Small survey for who is aiming for Victory Cards/Points because barring a
> scam surprising us, it’s going to be way harder to win if someone has to
> compete with someone else to get that 20 VP margin.
> 
> I personally would like to aim for VPs, but if anyone else is, I don’t mind
> making a deal with them or just conceding the race in exchange for coins or
> other stuff.
> 

The fact that a VP win resets the whole economy means there may be
significant pressure to stop it even from those who aren't trying to win.
"Winning" by VPs is effectively economic revolution (destroys any existing
oligarchy and makes everyone equal again).

(I'm not committing to any strategy personally right now, just pointing
that out - far to early to commit to a particular strategy).

-G.

DIS: Who is aiming for Victory Cards/Points?

[Cuddle Beam via agora-discussion]

Small survey for who is aiming for Victory Cards/Points because barring a
scam surprising us, it’s going to be way harder to win if someone has to
compete with someone else to get that 20 VP margin.

I personally would like to aim for VPs, but if anyone else is, I don’t mind
making a deal with them or just conceding the race in exchange for coins or
other stuff.

DIS: Re: BUS: PPPPPowerup

[Publius Scribonius Scholasticus via agora-discussion]

On 6/14/20 3:00 PM, Kerim Aydin via agora-business wrote:


By Rule 2623/1, I earn one Legislative Card for the adoption of Proposal
8407.

Disclaimer:  the above action may fail.  I earned (or attempted to earn)
this last week under R2623/0, and probably succeeded, but R2623 was just
amended so I have never met the new criterion, and my Proposal 8407 was
adopted less than 7 days ago.  That may be the first CFJ that someone
might want to call.  Or maybe it's fine.


Second, can someone explain how this cycles/resets:

   The player who proposed the adopted proposal such that the decision on
whether to adopt it had the greatest popularity, among all such decisions
assessed in the last 7 days CAN once earn one Legislative Card by
announcement, provided that no decision on whether to adopt any proposal
distributed in the same message remains unresolved. If there is a tie, all
authors of the tied proposals can do so once each.

This seems to be broken when two proposal batches are resolved less than 7
days apart.  I mean, if I authored a unanimous proposal adopted in a batch
less than 7 days ago, and a new batch is assessed with a unanimous
proposal of mine, how exactly does that work for "once"?

Anyway, unclear to me but maybe someone else can parse it - or again,
maybe there's a CFJ to call.

-G.



I think this came up briefly in the thread discussing the double 
distribution, and what I recall was that we thought there was a window 
in which each could occur: the second window being between the end of 
the seven day period from the first resolution but before the end of the 
seven day period from the second.


--

Publius Scribonius Scholasticus, Herald, Referee, Tailor, Pirate
Champion, Badge of the Great Agoran Revival, Badge of the Salted Earth

DIS: ATTN ADoP

[ATMunn via agora-discussion]

hi its been 7 days can the notary election please be resolved thanks

--
ATMunn
future notary here :)

DIS: Re: BUS: [Ribbons and Glitter] Question about Transparent Ribbons AND Re: OFF: [Assessor] Resolution of Proposals 8409-8430

[Kerim Aydin via agora-discussion]

On 6/14/2020 11:59 AM, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus wrote:
> On 6/14/20 1:39 PM, Jason Cobb via agora-official wrote:
>> RESOLUTION OF PROPOSALS 8409-8430
>> =
> 
> I earn a Red Ribbon for Proposal 8422. I award myself Orange Glitter for 
> Proposal 8422. I earn an Orange Ribbon for Proposal 8430. Ι earn a Lime 
> Ribbon for Proposal 8408, 8416, and 8424.
> 
> Also, a question about Transparent Ribbons: Does it have to be five 
> unique ribbons or could it be five instances of qualification?
> 

I think "number of other types" means each type is counted once.  No
precedents I know about but I'm pretty sure no-one's tried one that double
counts.

Re: DIS: [Webmastor] Informal Polling

[Jason Cobb via agora-discussion]

On 6/14/20 2:06 PM, Kerim Aydin via agora-discussion wrote:
> I tried that.  The problem is that, if I want users to be able to access a
> .txt version (the original) and an .html version, I have to maintain two
> copies of every single case, which is a pain both for number of files and
> the possibility of divergence/keeping them in sync (and cranking through
> lots of cases is time-consuming to process).


Why would a .txt and .html version both need to be kept? Based on the
code already in the repo, it looks like the small bit of markup is
already being generated. One solution would be to generate the markup
for all of the cases as another CI step, which would remove the need to
keep two records.


>
> Also, the only way to do that on Agoranomic is to have each case end with
> a file extension, so you'd have /3834.html and /3834.txt which is just
> plain ugly if you ask me.


There's an alternative of doing /3834 and /raw/3834, but good point
about the ugliness.

-- 
Jason Cobb

DIS: Re: BUS: [Proposal] Termination of Candidacy (Was: Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Notary Election)

[Edward Murphy via agora-discussion]

PSS wrote:


On Sat, Jun 6, 2020 at 8:51 AM Jason Cobb via agora-discussion
 wrote:



Rule 2154:


   When an election is initiated, it enters the nomination period,
   which lasts for 4 days. After an election is initiated and until
   nominations close, any player CAN become a candidate by
   announcement. A candidate ceases to be a candidate if e ceases to
   be a player during the election or if holding the office would
   make em Overpowered.



There's a mechanism to become a candidate, but no mechanism to cease
being a candidate. This election has two candidates - you and ATMunn,
and is thus contested.


Dammit, e's right. Now to scrub the alleged events and reconstruct who
previous officeholder's data...

Re: DIS: [Webmastor] A Github Coup

[Aris Merchant via agora-discussion]

On Sun, Jun 14, 2020 at 11:36 AM Publius Scribonius Scholasticus via
agora-discussion  wrote:
> > Totally agree with this, and Trigon just made some good points too. I'm
> > starting to proto a rule that lets the Webmastor write regulations for
> > the github that would regulate who should be owners, who is in charge of
> > which repo, when to push vs fork and make a request... All of that will
> > be based on a process of feedback and consensus. This was me realizing
> > the system was set up really sloppily (and potentially dangerously) and
> > deciding to do something about it in the meantime since I have no idea
> > how long said regulations will take to make.
> >
>
> I think that any rule we pass on this should explicitly exempt the
> Distributor because they obviously need access in emergencies to
> coordinate any changes they could be making to the mailing lists.

Yeah.

Suggested criteria (just proposals for discussion):
-Is Distributor;
-Is Webmastor;
-Is one of the N first registered active players (excluding the Distributor); or
-Is one of the N longest continuous registered active players
(excluding the Distributor);

-Aris

Re: DIS: Re: OFF: [Assessor] Resolution of Proposals 8409-8430

[Jason Cobb via agora-discussion]

On 6/14/20 2:03 PM, Jason Cobb wrote:
> On 6/14/20 1:53 PM, Kerim Aydin via agora-discussion wrote:
>> On 6/14/2020 10:39 AM, Jason Cobb via agora-official wrote:
>>> RESOLUTION OF PROPOSALS 8409-8430
>> Since we're talking about reporting and usage, can I mention (with great
>> appreciation for the work of Assessor) that the lack of a quick summary
>> table of this report makes both current reading and historical research
>> particularly difficult?
>>
>> I go back to old assessor's reports frequently and having to scroll a lot
>> to find out if I'm in the right place really slows the research.
>>
>> Even if it's a simple list that says: "Proposal #"  "Title"
>> "ADOPTED/REJECTED" (with no vote counts or fancy table) it would be really
>> handy to have up top.
>>
>>
> Sure, that sounds relatively easy. Give me a few hours.
>

Alright, first draft's done. You should be able to see it online at [0].

[0]: https://agoranomic.org/assessor/8322-8341.txt

-- 
Jason Cobb

Re: DIS: [Webmastor] A Github Coup

[Publius Scribonius Scholasticus via agora-discussion]

On 6/14/20 2:22 PM, nch via agora-discussion wrote:

On 6/14/20 1:18 PM, Aris Merchant via agora-discussion wrote:

On Sun, Jun 14, 2020 at 11:08 AM nch via agora-discussion
 wrote:

Inactivity in the game doesn't really mean unreachable though. omd has
been active on github with an occasional month off for 7 straight years.
This email address for me is an alias of my main protonmail address, and
emails directly to me go to the main inbox which will pop up on a few of
my devices immediately. The owners aren't the currently most engaged
players, they're people who have shown consistent contactability.

That said, I'm not really that invested in my criteria, I just chose
what seemed reasonable. But if we're going to tweak it further, I'd
rather seek some sort of consensus.

Says the person who just staged a coup without gathering any consensus
whatsoever. ;)

Okay, actual reply time. Nothing you've said is incorrect. I simply
think that having to email someone who isn't active is annoying. It's
not a huge deal, and inactive-but-contactable players certainly work
as a backup. I'm just suggesting we should have more reliably on list
people so we need to contact the backups less often.

-Aris


Totally agree with this, and Trigon just made some good points too. I'm
starting to proto a rule that lets the Webmastor write regulations for
the github that would regulate who should be owners, who is in charge of
which repo, when to push vs fork and make a request... All of that will
be based on a process of feedback and consensus. This was me realizing
the system was set up really sloppily (and potentially dangerously) and
deciding to do something about it in the meantime since I have no idea
how long said regulations will take to make.



I think that any rule we pass on this should explicitly exempt the 
Distributor because they obviously need access in emergencies to 
coordinate any changes they could be making to the mailing lists.


--

Publius Scribonius Scholasticus, Herald, Referee, Tailor, Pirate
Champion, Badge of the Great Agoran Revival, Badge of the Salted Earth

Re: DIS: [Attn: grok, G.] Re: BUS: PSS: Bribery

[Publius Scribonius Scholasticus via agora-discussion]

On 6/14/20 1:22 PM, grok via agora-discussion wrote:

On Sun, Jun 14, 2020, 5:05 AM Publius Scribonius Scholasticus via
agora-discussion  wrote:


On 6/13/20 9:26 PM, Rebecca via agora-business wrote:

PSS: I'm working towards winning by ribbons now, and I would like to make
this bribe.

I pledge to timely give you all my cards or Products except for

Legislative

Cards or products if you give me a Grey ribbon later this month and also
not to circumvent this pledge by sketchy transferring.



Given that I have official discretion on the matter, I'll probably
fulfill this, but I would appreciate comments from grok and G. who are
ahead of you in line.


--

Publius Scribonius Scholasticus, Herald, Referee, Tailor, Pirate
Champion, Badge of the Great Agoran Revival, Badge of the Salted Earth



I am unsure what "ahead in line" means here, and also not actively seeking
a ribbon victory.



Since I've been Tailor, I have been awarding Grey Ribbons to the 
alphabetically first active player who does not have one. You and G. 
would receive these ribbons before R. Lee according to this criterion.


--

Publius Scribonius Scholasticus, Herald, Referee, Tailor, Pirate
Champion, Badge of the Great Agoran Revival, Badge of the Salted Earth

Re: DIS: [Webmastor] A Github Coup

[Aris Merchant via agora-discussion]

On Sun, Jun 14, 2020 at 11:22 AM nch via agora-discussion
 wrote:
>
> On 6/14/20 1:18 PM, Aris Merchant via agora-discussion wrote:
> > On Sun, Jun 14, 2020 at 11:08 AM nch via agora-discussion
> >  wrote:
> >> Inactivity in the game doesn't really mean unreachable though. omd has
> >> been active on github with an occasional month off for 7 straight years.
> >> This email address for me is an alias of my main protonmail address, and
> >> emails directly to me go to the main inbox which will pop up on a few of
> >> my devices immediately. The owners aren't the currently most engaged
> >> players, they're people who have shown consistent contactability.
> >>
> >> That said, I'm not really that invested in my criteria, I just chose
> >> what seemed reasonable. But if we're going to tweak it further, I'd
> >> rather seek some sort of consensus.
> > Says the person who just staged a coup without gathering any consensus
> > whatsoever. ;)
> >
> > Okay, actual reply time. Nothing you've said is incorrect. I simply
> > think that having to email someone who isn't active is annoying. It's
> > not a huge deal, and inactive-but-contactable players certainly work
> > as a backup. I'm just suggesting we should have more reliably on list
> > people so we need to contact the backups less often.
> >
> > -Aris
>
> Totally agree with this, and Trigon just made some good points too. I'm
> starting to proto a rule that lets the Webmastor write regulations for
> the github that would regulate who should be owners, who is in charge of
> which repo, when to push vs fork and make a request... All of that will
> be based on a process of feedback and consensus. This was me realizing
> the system was set up really sloppily (and potentially dangerously) and
> deciding to do something about it in the meantime since I have no idea
> how long said regulations will take to make.

There's a proposal in the next distribution that should let you do
that. Populist Administration basically lets any officer write
regulations for anything relating to their office (backed only by a
SHOULD, so it's not dangerous, and still needs 1.5 Agoran Consent).

-Aris

Re: DIS: [Webmastor] A Github Coup

[Kerim Aydin via agora-discussion]

On 6/14/2020 11:19 AM, nch via agora-discussion wrote:
> On 6/14/20 1:12 PM, Kerim Aydin via agora-discussion wrote:
>>
>> On 6/14/2020 10:14 AM, Aris Merchant via agora-discussion wrote:
>>> On Sun, Jun 14, 2020 at 7:02 AM nch  wrote:
 On 6/14/20 8:55 AM, Jason Cobb via agora-discussion wrote:
>> * All members have been downgraded except me, g, and comex.
>>
>> Now that everyone has read and write access the vast majority of
>>> people shouldn't need to be owners. Please let me know if you have a reason
>>> you need to be.
>> Just to add, that while I don't mind being included as an owner and
>> certainly appreciate it, my git skills are "bare minimum to push pull
>> branch and commit" so I'd pretty much have to be told exactly what to do
>> if something came up (not that I couldn't google and try but there might
>> be better experts on call).
>>
>> -G.
>>
> The only real difference between owners and members now is that owners 
> have administrative access on github itself (to the repos and the group 
> as a whole), not access to the git tools.
> 

Sorry, I meant to add "and I don't really use github itself very much
other than to push to it - mostly interact with it through the CLI to do
simple stuff"  (I mean, github's interface is pretty clear, and everything
I've needed to do there has been searchable, but if there's anything
subtle with admin fixes, I'm not the go-to).

Re: DIS: [Webmastor] A Github Coup

[nch via agora-discussion]

On 6/14/20 1:18 PM, Aris Merchant via agora-discussion wrote:
> On Sun, Jun 14, 2020 at 11:08 AM nch via agora-discussion
>  wrote:
>> Inactivity in the game doesn't really mean unreachable though. omd has
>> been active on github with an occasional month off for 7 straight years.
>> This email address for me is an alias of my main protonmail address, and
>> emails directly to me go to the main inbox which will pop up on a few of
>> my devices immediately. The owners aren't the currently most engaged
>> players, they're people who have shown consistent contactability.
>>
>> That said, I'm not really that invested in my criteria, I just chose
>> what seemed reasonable. But if we're going to tweak it further, I'd
>> rather seek some sort of consensus.
> Says the person who just staged a coup without gathering any consensus
> whatsoever. ;)
>
> Okay, actual reply time. Nothing you've said is incorrect. I simply
> think that having to email someone who isn't active is annoying. It's
> not a huge deal, and inactive-but-contactable players certainly work
> as a backup. I'm just suggesting we should have more reliably on list
> people so we need to contact the backups less often.
>
> -Aris

Totally agree with this, and Trigon just made some good points too. I'm 
starting to proto a rule that lets the Webmastor write regulations for 
the github that would regulate who should be owners, who is in charge of 
which repo, when to push vs fork and make a request... All of that will 
be based on a process of feedback and consensus. This was me realizing 
the system was set up really sloppily (and potentially dangerously) and 
deciding to do something about it in the meantime since I have no idea 
how long said regulations will take to make.

-- 
nch
Webmastor, NAX Exchange Manager, Pirate

Re: DIS: [Webmastor] A Github Coup

[Aris Merchant via agora-discussion]

On Sun, Jun 14, 2020 at 11:16 AM Kerim Aydin via agora-discussion
 wrote:
>
>
> On 6/14/2020 10:14 AM, Aris Merchant via agora-discussion wrote:
> > On Sun, Jun 14, 2020 at 7:02 AM nch  wrote:
> >> On 6/14/20 8:55 AM, Jason Cobb via agora-discussion wrote:
>  * All members have been downgraded except me, g, and comex.
> 
>  Now that everyone has read and write access the vast majority of
> > people shouldn't need to be owners. Please let me know if you have a reason
> > you need to be.
>
> Just to add, that while I don't mind being included as an owner and
> certainly appreciate it, my git skills are "bare minimum to push pull
> branch and commit" so I'd pretty much have to be told exactly what to do
> if something came up (not that I couldn't google and try but there might
> be better experts on call).

I have a fair bit of git experience, although it's a few years old. I
was the guy who got called in when there was a git problem for a small
development team (~5 people) a few years back.

That being said, most (actually I think all) of the things you need
owner for at this point are in the GitHub GUI, so that's not a huge
deal. Though, if anyone ever has a git problem, I'd love to help.
They're fun.

-Aris

Re: DIS: [Webmastor] Informal Polling

[Kerim Aydin via agora-discussion]

On 6/14/2020 11:06 AM, Kerim Aydin wrote:
> On 6/14/2020 11:01 AM, Jason Cobb via agora-discussion wrote:
>> On 6/14/20 1:44 PM, Kerim Aydin via agora-discussion wrote:
>>> I'll start pushing my weekly report somewhere so people can bookmark it to
>>> check deadlines or whatnot - would people prefer it on my site or on
>>> Agoranomic somewhere.   I only update it when I also publish the weekly
>>> but maybe useful.
>>
>>
>> I'd prefer it to be on agoranomic solely for the sake of keeping
>> everything together.
>>
>>
>>>
>>> btw, the only reason the official version of the CotC site hasn't been
>>> moved to its Agoranmic.org backup repo is that github pages doesn't
>>> support server-side scripting i.e. php and that static versions I've
>>> experimented with are very ugly.
>>>
>>
>> What I've done for Assessor is have a CI job generate static markdown
>> from the source in the main branch; I wonder if something similar could
>> be done for the case log.
>>
> 
> I tried that.  The problem is that, if I want users to be able to access a
> .txt version (the original) and an .html version, I have to maintain two
> copies of every single case, which is a pain both for number of files and
> the possibility of divergence/keeping them in sync (and cranking through
> lots of cases is time-consuming to process).
> 
> Also, the only way to do that on Agoranomic is to have each case end with
> a file extension, so you'd have /3834.html and /3834.txt which is just
> plain ugly if you ask me.
> 

Addendum: my next attempt was going to be to try javascript so the html
page would load the txtfile on the client side, but if I do that I'd be
learning javascript pretty much from scratch so it's been low on the
priority list.  (python and javascript are my two "I'm feeling behind the
times because I haven't sat down or had an excuse to learn these" languages).

Re: DIS: [Webmastor] A Github Coup

[nch via agora-discussion]

On 6/14/20 1:12 PM, Kerim Aydin via agora-discussion wrote:
>
> On 6/14/2020 10:14 AM, Aris Merchant via agora-discussion wrote:
>> On Sun, Jun 14, 2020 at 7:02 AM nch  wrote:
>>> On 6/14/20 8:55 AM, Jason Cobb via agora-discussion wrote:
> * All members have been downgraded except me, g, and comex.
>
> Now that everyone has read and write access the vast majority of
>> people shouldn't need to be owners. Please let me know if you have a reason
>> you need to be.
> Just to add, that while I don't mind being included as an owner and
> certainly appreciate it, my git skills are "bare minimum to push pull
> branch and commit" so I'd pretty much have to be told exactly what to do
> if something came up (not that I couldn't google and try but there might
> be better experts on call).
>
> -G.
>
The only real difference between owners and members now is that owners 
have administrative access on github itself (to the repos and the group 
as a whole), not access to the git tools.

-- 
nch
Webmastor, NAX Exchange Manager, Pirate

Re: DIS: [Webmastor] A Github Coup

[Aris Merchant via agora-discussion]

On Sun, Jun 14, 2020 at 11:08 AM nch via agora-discussion
 wrote:
>
> Inactivity in the game doesn't really mean unreachable though. omd has
> been active on github with an occasional month off for 7 straight years.
> This email address for me is an alias of my main protonmail address, and
> emails directly to me go to the main inbox which will pop up on a few of
> my devices immediately. The owners aren't the currently most engaged
> players, they're people who have shown consistent contactability.
>
> That said, I'm not really that invested in my criteria, I just chose
> what seemed reasonable. But if we're going to tweak it further, I'd
> rather seek some sort of consensus.

Says the person who just staged a coup without gathering any consensus
whatsoever. ;)

Okay, actual reply time. Nothing you've said is incorrect. I simply
think that having to email someone who isn't active is annoying. It's
not a huge deal, and inactive-but-contactable players certainly work
as a backup. I'm just suggesting we should have more reliably on list
people so we need to contact the backups less often.

-Aris

Re: DIS: [Webmastor] A Github Coup

[Reuben Staley via agora-discussion]

On 2020-06-14 11:14, Aris Merchant via agora-discussion wrote:

On Sun, Jun 14, 2020 at 7:02 AM nch via agora-discussion <
agora-discussion@agoranomic.org> wrote:


On 6/14/20 8:55 AM, Jason Cobb via agora-discussion wrote:

On 6/14/20 7:04 AM, nch via agora-discussion wrote:

A large number of members of the github were owners. Owners can
downgrade each other, delete repositories, and even delete the org.
Obviously these are all major security issues.

I have made the following changes:

* All members have read and write access to all repos

* All members have been downgraded except me, g, and comex.

Now that everyone has read and write access the vast majority of

people shouldn't need to be owners. Please let me know if you have a reason
you need to be.



Fine by me, although I am slightly concerned that bus factor for control
of the Github org has been lowered considerably.

--
Jason Cobb


That's why I reduced it to the three longest-active players in the org
(unless someone has been around longer than me that I missed?). If for
some reason one becomes uncontactable the other two are very likely
still around.


So, I'm not worried about the bus risk for the reasons you describe, but am
I concerned that there's another problem with your selection criteria.
You've selected for the longest involvement in Agora, which does increase
the chance that one of the owners will be reachable in an emergency.
However, most of the people you've selected have relatively low continuous
activity levels.

omd has been a registered player for the longest time, but only because e's
the Distributor and thus has been immune from deregistration. E's actually
been inactive, as a player, for a lot of that time.

You've also been inactive for a lot of the time since your first
registration. I believe you recently registered after a fairly long lapse
in registration.

G. is fine on this front. E deregisters every now and then for a short
while, so e's only the fourth most recently registered player (the third,
not counting the Distributor), but e's never gone for more than a month at
a time. Also, e usually checks email even when not registered. E definitely
isn't available all the time though; sometimes e takes vacations or is
otherwise temporarily absent.

So, of the three owners you've selected, only one can be relied on to be on
list with any consistency. That means that if someone has a problem that
requires an owner, there's only one person who can be relied on to be
checking the mailing lists. If e's unavailable and the others happen to be
inactive (which, again, they are relatively often), we have to either wait
or roust someone who isn't currently active. That isn't the end of the
world, but is certainly an annoyance for all concerned. And it's really
likely to happen, because again, of the three people you picked, only one
is reliably on list. Your on-list redundancy is non-existent.

The solution is simple: augment your selection criteria with another one,
picking someone who's been active for the longest continuous amount of
time. This would be the longest continuously registered player, apart from
the Distributor (who doesn't need to stay active to stay registered). This
just happens to be someone who's never even been zombified and has been
around for over three years. I wonder who that is? :)


I like this idea but have some suggestions myself.

Another criterion I think would be valuable is familiarity with Github 
itself. Sure, there are people who have been continuously active for a 
long time, but I would rather rely upon players who know their way 
around Github (especially Github orgs) and can find the options to deal 
with any emergencies quick. Also perhaps the amount of contribution the 
player has made to the Github repositories.


--
Trigon

Speaker and Treasuror of Agora; Former Rulekeepor (12 months) and 
Cartographor (8 months) of Agora; Champion of Agora by High Score and 
Proposal; Bearer of the Badge of the Salted Earth; Founder of the League 
of Agorans Facilitating Effective Recordkeeping; Arcadian Revivalist; 
Sixth-Longest Continually Registered Player of Agora; Player and former 
Emperor of BlogNomic; Player, Book-keeper, and Originator of the 
Metaruleset of Infinite Nomic; Contributor to the nomic.club wiki and 
the Talk:Nomic page on Wikipedia.

Re: DIS: [Webmastor] A Github Coup

[Kerim Aydin via agora-discussion]

On 6/14/2020 10:14 AM, Aris Merchant via agora-discussion wrote:
> On Sun, Jun 14, 2020 at 7:02 AM nch  wrote:
>> On 6/14/20 8:55 AM, Jason Cobb via agora-discussion wrote:
 * All members have been downgraded except me, g, and comex.

 Now that everyone has read and write access the vast majority of
> people shouldn't need to be owners. Please let me know if you have a reason
> you need to be.

Just to add, that while I don't mind being included as an owner and
certainly appreciate it, my git skills are "bare minimum to push pull
branch and commit" so I'd pretty much have to be told exactly what to do
if something came up (not that I couldn't google and try but there might
be better experts on call).

-G.

Re: DIS: [Treasuror] New Report Format

[Reuben Staley via agora-discussion]

On 2020-06-14 11:55, Kerim Aydin via agora-discussion wrote:


On 6/14/2020 7:14 AM, Jason Cobb via agora-discussion wrote:

On 6/14/20 2:30 AM, Reuben Staley via agora-discussion wrote:

Okay, so after I complained at you guys I realized that my table system
is really similar to markdown's, which GitHub pages can interpret and
turn into HTML.

I wasn't planning on doing HTML reports for this office, but I had
finally found an excuse to use awk for something, so whatever.

Wow, that was a lot of boring words.

TL;DR: https://agoranomic.org/Treasuror/test

Tell me that's not beautiful. You can't!



It is indeed beautiful.



This looks great!  I'd definitely bookmark this and use it.
Minor request to anyone putting reports online - please put a "last
updated" date in a prominent place near the top, it's important to know
how in up-to-date the report is (otherwise people have to go hunting for
the email copy anyway).


I've gotten this suggestion twice now, so I'll address it. This was just 
a test to see if I could get markdown tables working. When I publish 
full reports, I'll actually copy the whole report and turn it into markdown.


--
Trigon

Speaker and Treasuror of Agora; Former Rulekeepor (12 months) and 
Cartographor (8 months) of Agora; Champion of Agora by High Score and 
Proposal; Bearer of the Badge of the Salted Earth; Founder of the League 
of Agorans Facilitating Effective Recordkeeping; Arcadian Revivalist; 
Sixth-Longest Continually Registered Player of Agora; Player and former 
Emperor of BlogNomic; Player, Book-keeper, and Originator of the 
Metaruleset of Infinite Nomic; Contributor to the nomic.club wiki and 
the Talk:Nomic page on Wikipedia.

Re: DIS: [Webmastor] A Github Coup

[nch via agora-discussion]

On 6/14/20 12:14 PM, Aris Merchant via agora-discussion wrote:
> On Sun, Jun 14, 2020 at 7:02 AM nch via agora-discussion <
> agora-discussion@agoranomic.org> wrote:
>> On 6/14/20 8:55 AM, Jason Cobb via agora-discussion wrote:
>>> On 6/14/20 7:04 AM, nch via agora-discussion wrote:
 A large number of members of the github were owners. Owners can
 downgrade each other, delete repositories, and even delete the org.
 Obviously these are all major security issues.

 I have made the following changes:

 * All members have read and write access to all repos

 * All members have been downgraded except me, g, and comex.

 Now that everyone has read and write access the vast majority of
> people shouldn't need to be owners. Please let me know if you have a reason
> you need to be.
>>> Fine by me, although I am slightly concerned that bus factor for control
>>> of the Github org has been lowered considerably.
>>>
>>> --
>>> Jason Cobb
>>>
>> That's why I reduced it to the three longest-active players in the org
>> (unless someone has been around longer than me that I missed?). If for
>> some reason one becomes uncontactable the other two are very likely
>> still around.
> So, I'm not worried about the bus risk for the reasons you describe, but am
> I concerned that there's another problem with your selection criteria.
> You've selected for the longest involvement in Agora, which does increase
> the chance that one of the owners will be reachable in an emergency.
> However, most of the people you've selected have relatively low continuous
> activity levels.
>
> omd has been a registered player for the longest time, but only because e's
> the Distributor and thus has been immune from deregistration. E's actually
> been inactive, as a player, for a lot of that time.
>
> You've also been inactive for a lot of the time since your first
> registration. I believe you recently registered after a fairly long lapse
> in registration.


Inactivity in the game doesn't really mean unreachable though. omd has 
been active on github with an occasional month off for 7 straight years. 
This email address for me is an alias of my main protonmail address, and 
emails directly to me go to the main inbox which will pop up on a few of 
my devices immediately. The owners aren't the currently most engaged 
players, they're people who have shown consistent contactability.

That said, I'm not really that invested in my criteria, I just chose 
what seemed reasonable. But if we're going to tweak it further, I'd 
rather seek some sort of consensus.

-- 
nch
Webmastor, NAX Exchange Manager, Pirate

Re: DIS: [Webmastor] Informal Polling

[Kerim Aydin via agora-discussion]

On 6/14/2020 11:01 AM, Jason Cobb via agora-discussion wrote:
> On 6/14/20 1:44 PM, Kerim Aydin via agora-discussion wrote:
>> I'll start pushing my weekly report somewhere so people can bookmark it to
>> check deadlines or whatnot - would people prefer it on my site or on
>> Agoranomic somewhere.   I only update it when I also publish the weekly
>> but maybe useful.
> 
> 
> I'd prefer it to be on agoranomic solely for the sake of keeping
> everything together.
> 
> 
>>
>> btw, the only reason the official version of the CotC site hasn't been
>> moved to its Agoranmic.org backup repo is that github pages doesn't
>> support server-side scripting i.e. php and that static versions I've
>> experimented with are very ugly.
>>
> 
> What I've done for Assessor is have a CI job generate static markdown
> from the source in the main branch; I wonder if something similar could
> be done for the case log.
> 

I tried that.  The problem is that, if I want users to be able to access a
.txt version (the original) and an .html version, I have to maintain two
copies of every single case, which is a pain both for number of files and
the possibility of divergence/keeping them in sync (and cranking through
lots of cases is time-consuming to process).

Also, the only way to do that on Agoranomic is to have each case end with
a file extension, so you'd have /3834.html and /3834.txt which is just
plain ugly if you ask me.

Re: DIS: Re: OFF: [Assessor] Resolution of Proposals 8409-8430

[ATMunn via agora-discussion]

On 6/14/2020 1:53 PM, Kerim Aydin via agora-discussion wrote:


On 6/14/2020 10:39 AM, Jason Cobb via agora-official wrote:

RESOLUTION OF PROPOSALS 8409-8430


Since we're talking about reporting and usage, can I mention (with great
appreciation for the work of Assessor) that the lack of a quick summary
table of this report makes both current reading and historical research
particularly difficult?

I go back to old assessor's reports frequently and having to scroll a lot
to find out if I'm in the right place really slows the research.

Even if it's a simple list that says: "Proposal #"  "Title"
"ADOPTED/REJECTED" (with no vote counts or fancy table) it would be really
handy to have up top.




Agreed. That would be nice.

--
ATMunn
future notary here :)

Re: DIS: Re: OFF: [Assessor] Resolution of Proposals 8409-8430

[Jason Cobb via agora-discussion]

On 6/14/20 1:53 PM, Kerim Aydin via agora-discussion wrote:
> On 6/14/2020 10:39 AM, Jason Cobb via agora-official wrote:
>> RESOLUTION OF PROPOSALS 8409-8430
> Since we're talking about reporting and usage, can I mention (with great
> appreciation for the work of Assessor) that the lack of a quick summary
> table of this report makes both current reading and historical research
> particularly difficult?
>
> I go back to old assessor's reports frequently and having to scroll a lot
> to find out if I'm in the right place really slows the research.
>
> Even if it's a simple list that says: "Proposal #"  "Title"
> "ADOPTED/REJECTED" (with no vote counts or fancy table) it would be really
> handy to have up top.
>
>

Sure, that sounds relatively easy. Give me a few hours.

-- 
Jason Cobb

Re: DIS: [Webmastor] Informal Polling

[Kerim Aydin via agora-discussion]

On 6/14/2020 2:36 AM, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus wrote:
> On Sun, Jun 14, 2020 at 12:44 AM Rebecca wrote:
>>
>> we can be a little overly rude to people who misinterpret the rules or
>> forget about a rule or two but if anyone actually tries to tell you they've
>> never made a similar mistake or that they actually understand and remember
>> all the rules, they are lying.
>>
> 
> This is very important to remember. In the same vein, if you aren't
> sure about the intended tone or if something seems direct, assume the
> best because they probably aren't attacking you.
> 

Yah, I think a thing to remember is that we channel academia a fair amount
 - i.e. one of the first lessons in grad school is that if someone hands
you back a manuscript of your life's work dripping in red ink with terse
comments like "this sentence is completely unsupported and probably wrong"
it's not about you, it actually means they respect you enough to spend
time scrutinizing every detail.

Re: DIS: [Webmastor] Informal Polling

[Jason Cobb via agora-discussion]

On 6/14/20 1:44 PM, Kerim Aydin via agora-discussion wrote:
> I'll start pushing my weekly report somewhere so people can bookmark it to
> check deadlines or whatnot - would people prefer it on my site or on
> Agoranomic somewhere.   I only update it when I also publish the weekly
> but maybe useful.


I'd prefer it to be on agoranomic solely for the sake of keeping
everything together.


>
> btw, the only reason the official version of the CotC site hasn't been
> moved to its Agoranmic.org backup repo is that github pages doesn't
> support server-side scripting i.e. php and that static versions I've
> experimented with are very ugly.
>

What I've done for Assessor is have a CI job generate static markdown
from the source in the main branch; I wonder if something similar could
be done for the case log.

-- 
Jason Cobb

Re: DIS: [Treasuror] New Report Format

[Kerim Aydin via agora-discussion]

On 6/14/2020 7:14 AM, Jason Cobb via agora-discussion wrote:
> On 6/14/20 2:30 AM, Reuben Staley via agora-discussion wrote:
>> On 2020-06-13 22:55, Reuben Staley wrote:
>>> On 2020-06-13 22:27, Rebecca via agora-discussion wrote:
 I personally dislike the new format as gmail does NOT give agoran 
 messages
 to me in fixed width, thus I need to access the archives to read messages
 like this (which I forgot my password to years ago). I overall prefer 
 less
 compactness in reports as I don't like the extreme misalignment that
 everything comes into my client with. But I'm aware that there's 
 probably a
 way to fix this and it's just a me problem.
>>> I am open to suggestions if you have a different way to display this. 
>>> I'm not going to have nine tables as big as the current one, but I am 
>>> open to suggestions.
>> Okay, so after I complained at you guys I realized that my table system 
>> is really similar to markdown's, which GitHub pages can interpret and 
>> turn into HTML.
>>
>> I wasn't planning on doing HTML reports for this office, but I had 
>> finally found an excuse to use awk for something, so whatever.
>>
>> Wow, that was a lot of boring words.
>>
>> TL;DR: https://agoranomic.org/Treasuror/test
>>
>> Tell me that's not beautiful. You can't!
> 
> 
> It is indeed beautiful.
> 

This looks great!  I'd definitely bookmark this and use it.
Minor request to anyone putting reports online - please put a "last
updated" date in a prominent place near the top, it's important to know
how in up-to-date the report is (otherwise people have to go hunting for
the email copy anyway).

DIS: Re: OFF: [Assessor] Resolution of Proposals 8409-8430

[Kerim Aydin via agora-discussion]

On 6/14/2020 10:39 AM, Jason Cobb via agora-official wrote:
> RESOLUTION OF PROPOSALS 8409-8430

Since we're talking about reporting and usage, can I mention (with great
appreciation for the work of Assessor) that the lack of a quick summary
table of this report makes both current reading and historical research
particularly difficult?

I go back to old assessor's reports frequently and having to scroll a lot
to find out if I'm in the right place really slows the research.

Even if it's a simple list that says: "Proposal #"  "Title"
"ADOPTED/REJECTED" (with no vote counts or fancy table) it would be really
handy to have up top.

Re: DIS: [Webmastor] Informal Polling

[Kerim Aydin via agora-discussion]

On 6/14/2020 4:14 AM, nch via agora-discussion wrote:
> On 6/14/20 5:03 AM, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus via agora-discussion 
> wrote:
>>> * What resources do you wish were online?
>> I'd like to put my reports online since people seem to want them all to
>> be online, but I don't currently have write access to the Agoran
>> repositories.

I'll start pushing my weekly report somewhere so people can bookmark it to
check deadlines or whatnot - would people prefer it on my site or on
Agoranomic somewhere.   I only update it when I also publish the weekly
but maybe useful.

btw, the only reason the official version of the CotC site hasn't been
moved to its Agoranmic.org backup repo is that github pages doesn't
support server-side scripting i.e. php and that static versions I've
experimented with are very ugly.

Re: DIS: [Webmastor] Tiny Homepage Updates

[Alex Smith via agora-discussion]

 On Sunday, 14 June 2020, 13:26:34 GMT+1, nch via agora-discussion 
 wrote:
> I did some updates to the homepage, keeping it mostly the same as it
> was. I bolded most (missed a couple that will be fixed next time I
> update it) of the numbers and dates we should be updating regularly both
> to catch visitors' eyes and to shame us into fixing them when they get
> stale.

Note that the count of rules enacted can be hard to measure, as some ID numbers 
were never used (e.g. 299), and in some old rulesets, amending a rule changed 
its ID number. So the correct total number of rules enacted, as listed on the 
web page, is likely to be somewhat less than the "current rule ID number". I'm 
not sure what an appropriate safety margin for this would be.

-- 
ais523  

Re: DIS: [Attn: grok, G.] Re: BUS: PSS: Bribery

[grok via agora-discussion]

On Sun, Jun 14, 2020, 5:05 AM Publius Scribonius Scholasticus via
agora-discussion  wrote:

> On 6/13/20 9:26 PM, Rebecca via agora-business wrote:
> > PSS: I'm working towards winning by ribbons now, and I would like to make
> > this bribe.
> >
> > I pledge to timely give you all my cards or Products except for
> Legislative
> > Cards or products if you give me a Grey ribbon later this month and also
> > not to circumvent this pledge by sketchy transferring.
> >
>
> Given that I have official discretion on the matter, I'll probably
> fulfill this, but I would appreciate comments from grok and G. who are
> ahead of you in line.
>
>
> --
> 
> Publius Scribonius Scholasticus, Herald, Referee, Tailor, Pirate
> Champion, Badge of the Great Agoran Revival, Badge of the Salted Earth
>

I am unsure what "ahead in line" means here, and also not actively seeking
a ribbon victory.

Re: DIS: [Webmastor] A Github Coup

[Publius Scribonius Scholasticus via agora-discussion]

On 6/14/20 1:14 PM, Aris Merchant via agora-discussion wrote:

On Sun, Jun 14, 2020 at 7:02 AM nch via agora-discussion <
agora-discussion@agoranomic.org> wrote:


On 6/14/20 8:55 AM, Jason Cobb via agora-discussion wrote:

On 6/14/20 7:04 AM, nch via agora-discussion wrote:

A large number of members of the github were owners. Owners can
downgrade each other, delete repositories, and even delete the org.
Obviously these are all major security issues.

I have made the following changes:

* All members have read and write access to all repos

* All members have been downgraded except me, g, and comex.

Now that everyone has read and write access the vast majority of

people shouldn't need to be owners. Please let me know if you have a reason
you need to be.



Fine by me, although I am slightly concerned that bus factor for control
of the Github org has been lowered considerably.

--
Jason Cobb


That's why I reduced it to the three longest-active players in the org
(unless someone has been around longer than me that I missed?). If for
some reason one becomes uncontactable the other two are very likely
still around.


So, I'm not worried about the bus risk for the reasons you describe, but am
I concerned that there's another problem with your selection criteria.
You've selected for the longest involvement in Agora, which does increase
the chance that one of the owners will be reachable in an emergency.
However, most of the people you've selected have relatively low continuous
activity levels.

omd has been a registered player for the longest time, but only because e's
the Distributor and thus has been immune from deregistration. E's actually
been inactive, as a player, for a lot of that time.

You've also been inactive for a lot of the time since your first
registration. I believe you recently registered after a fairly long lapse
in registration.

G. is fine on this front. E deregisters every now and then for a short
while, so e's only the fourth most recently registered player (the third,
not counting the Distributor), but e's never gone for more than a month at
a time. Also, e usually checks email even when not registered. E definitely
isn't available all the time though; sometimes e takes vacations or is
otherwise temporarily absent.

So, of the three owners you've selected, only one can be relied on to be on
list with any consistency. That means that if someone has a problem that
requires an owner, there's only one person who can be relied on to be
checking the mailing lists. If e's unavailable and the others happen to be
inactive (which, again, they are relatively often), we have to either wait
or roust someone who isn't currently active. That isn't the end of the
world, but is certainly an annoyance for all concerned. And it's really
likely to happen, because again, of the three people you picked, only one
is reliably on list. Your on-list redundancy is non-existent.

The solution is simple: augment your selection criteria with another one,
picking someone who's been active for the longest continuous amount of
time. This would be the longest continuously registered player, apart from
the Distributor (who doesn't need to stay active to stay registered). This
just happens to be someone who's never even been zombified and has been
around for over three years. I wonder who that is? :)

-Aris



I'd be supportive of so augmenting the criteria.

--

Publius Scribonius Scholasticus, Herald, Referee, Tailor, Pirate
Champion, Badge of the Great Agoran Revival, Badge of the Salted Earth

Re: DIS: [Webmastor] A Github Coup

[Aris Merchant via agora-discussion]

On Sun, Jun 14, 2020 at 7:02 AM nch via agora-discussion <
agora-discussion@agoranomic.org> wrote:
>
> On 6/14/20 8:55 AM, Jason Cobb via agora-discussion wrote:
> > On 6/14/20 7:04 AM, nch via agora-discussion wrote:
> >> A large number of members of the github were owners. Owners can
> >> downgrade each other, delete repositories, and even delete the org.
> >> Obviously these are all major security issues.
> >>
> >> I have made the following changes:
> >>
> >> * All members have read and write access to all repos
> >>
> >> * All members have been downgraded except me, g, and comex.
> >>
> >> Now that everyone has read and write access the vast majority of
people shouldn't need to be owners. Please let me know if you have a reason
you need to be.
> >>
> > Fine by me, although I am slightly concerned that bus factor for control
> > of the Github org has been lowered considerably.
> >
> > --
> > Jason Cobb
> >
> That's why I reduced it to the three longest-active players in the org
> (unless someone has been around longer than me that I missed?). If for
> some reason one becomes uncontactable the other two are very likely
> still around.

So, I'm not worried about the bus risk for the reasons you describe, but am
I concerned that there's another problem with your selection criteria.
You've selected for the longest involvement in Agora, which does increase
the chance that one of the owners will be reachable in an emergency.
However, most of the people you've selected have relatively low continuous
activity levels.

omd has been a registered player for the longest time, but only because e's
the Distributor and thus has been immune from deregistration. E's actually
been inactive, as a player, for a lot of that time.

You've also been inactive for a lot of the time since your first
registration. I believe you recently registered after a fairly long lapse
in registration.

G. is fine on this front. E deregisters every now and then for a short
while, so e's only the fourth most recently registered player (the third,
not counting the Distributor), but e's never gone for more than a month at
a time. Also, e usually checks email even when not registered. E definitely
isn't available all the time though; sometimes e takes vacations or is
otherwise temporarily absent.

So, of the three owners you've selected, only one can be relied on to be on
list with any consistency. That means that if someone has a problem that
requires an owner, there's only one person who can be relied on to be
checking the mailing lists. If e's unavailable and the others happen to be
inactive (which, again, they are relatively often), we have to either wait
or roust someone who isn't currently active. That isn't the end of the
world, but is certainly an annoyance for all concerned. And it's really
likely to happen, because again, of the three people you picked, only one
is reliably on list. Your on-list redundancy is non-existent.

The solution is simple: augment your selection criteria with another one,
picking someone who's been active for the longest continuous amount of
time. This would be the longest continuously registered player, apart from
the Distributor (who doesn't need to stay active to stay registered). This
just happens to be someone who's never even been zombified and has been
around for over three years. I wonder who that is? :)

-Aris

Re: DIS: [Treasuror] New Report Format

[ATMunn via agora-discussion]

On 6/14/2020 2:30 AM, Reuben Staley via agora-discussion wrote:

On 2020-06-13 22:55, Reuben Staley wrote:

On 2020-06-13 22:27, Rebecca via agora-discussion wrote:
I personally dislike the new format as gmail does NOT give agoran 
messages
to me in fixed width, thus I need to access the archives to read 
messages
like this (which I forgot my password to years ago). I overall prefer 
less

compactness in reports as I don't like the extreme misalignment that
everything comes into my client with. But I'm aware that there's 
probably a

way to fix this and it's just a me problem.
I am open to suggestions if you have a different way to display this. 
I'm not going to have nine tables as big as the current one, but I am 
open to suggestions.


Okay, so after I complained at you guys I realized that my table system 
is really similar to markdown's, which GitHub pages can interpret and 
turn into HTML.


I wasn't planning on doing HTML reports for this office, but I had 
finally found an excuse to use awk for something, so whatever.


Wow, that was a lot of boring words.

TL;DR: https://agoranomic.org/Treasuror/test

Tell me that's not beautiful. You can't!

Also if any nerds are interested in the awk script I wrote I also 
uploaded that too okay bye


https://github.com/AgoraNomic/Treasuror/blob/master/markdown.awk



much like, very approve

--
ATMunn
future notary here :)

Re: DIS: [Webmastor] Informal Polling

[ATMunn via agora-discussion]

I should also mention that I had started working on something called
Makor, basically a web-based gadget for creating proposals and reports.
It would take a lot of work to bring it to the point of being more
practical than just writing reports manually, but it could definitely
help new players be more interested in holding offices and help get more
reports online.

On 6/13/2020 9:27 PM, nch via agora-discussion wrote:

Some questions to help me plan some improvements to the web content.

* What should be on the main page? [it's pretty outdated now, and I
feel like it could use a facelift and some new copy]

* What kinds of tips should go on a New Player page?

* What online resources do you use the most?

* What resources do you wish were online?

* How do you access Agora? [your email's web client, a desktop
client, phone client]

* Any tips or tricks that you use on the devices/software that you 
access Agora through that you find indispensable?


* Anything else that you think would help improve the web content?



--
ATMunn
future notary here :)

Re: DIS: [Webmastor] Informal Polling

[ATMunn via agora-discussion]

Haven't looked at anyone else's answers yet, so there might be some 
repeat stuff in here, but I wanted to be unbiased in my answers.


On 6/13/2020 9:27 PM, nch via agora-discussion wrote:

Some questions to help me plan some improvements to the web content.

* What should be on the main page? [it's pretty outdated now, and I feel
like it could use a facelift and some new copy]


It's pretty good as is (it was enough to get me into the game when I 
stumbled upon it in a random Google search), but a facelift could be good.




* What kinds of tips should go on a New Player page?


Basic information about how to set up the mailing lists; a summary of 
important rules; explanation of common terms used by Agorans; stuff like 
that.




* What online resources do you use the most?


The ruleset and archives. That's about it. Occasionally the CFJ archive.



* What resources do you wish were online?


Honestly not that much, I'm pretty content with it as is. Although, I 
will mention that I would be willing to put my Notary report online at 
some point if it's requested.




* How do you access Agora? [your email's web client, a desktop client,
phone client]


Thunderbird.



* Any tips or tricks that you use on the devices/software that you
access Agora through that you find indispensable?


USE MONOSPACE FONT. Also make it default to plain text in the settings 
(don't remember exactly how to do that, it's been a while lol)




* Anything else that you think would help improve the web content?



Not that I can really think of.

--
ATMunn
future notary here :)

Re: DIS: [Treasuror] New Report Format

[Jason Cobb via agora-discussion]

On 6/14/20 2:30 AM, Reuben Staley via agora-discussion wrote:
> On 2020-06-13 22:55, Reuben Staley wrote:
>> On 2020-06-13 22:27, Rebecca via agora-discussion wrote:
>>> I personally dislike the new format as gmail does NOT give agoran 
>>> messages
>>> to me in fixed width, thus I need to access the archives to read messages
>>> like this (which I forgot my password to years ago). I overall prefer 
>>> less
>>> compactness in reports as I don't like the extreme misalignment that
>>> everything comes into my client with. But I'm aware that there's 
>>> probably a
>>> way to fix this and it's just a me problem.
>> I am open to suggestions if you have a different way to display this. 
>> I'm not going to have nine tables as big as the current one, but I am 
>> open to suggestions.
> Okay, so after I complained at you guys I realized that my table system 
> is really similar to markdown's, which GitHub pages can interpret and 
> turn into HTML.
>
> I wasn't planning on doing HTML reports for this office, but I had 
> finally found an excuse to use awk for something, so whatever.
>
> Wow, that was a lot of boring words.
>
> TL;DR: https://agoranomic.org/Treasuror/test
>
> Tell me that's not beautiful. You can't!


It is indeed beautiful.

-- 
Jason Cobb

Re: DIS: [Webmastor] A Github Coup

[Jason Cobb via agora-discussion]

On 6/14/20 10:02 AM, nch via agora-discussion wrote:
> On 6/14/20 8:55 AM, Jason Cobb via agora-discussion wrote:
>> On 6/14/20 7:04 AM, nch via agora-discussion wrote:
>>> A large number of members of the github were owners. Owners can
>>> downgrade each other, delete repositories, and even delete the org.
>>> Obviously these are all major security issues.
>>>
>>> I have made the following changes:
>>>
>>> * All members have read and write access to all repos
>>>
>>> * All members have been downgraded except me, g, and comex.
>>>
>>> Now that everyone has read and write access the vast majority of people 
>>> shouldn't need to be owners. Please let me know if you have a reason you 
>>> need to be.
>>>
>> Fine by me, although I am slightly concerned that bus factor for control
>> of the Github org has been lowered considerably.
>>
>> --
>> Jason Cobb
>>
> That's why I reduced it to the three longest-active players in the org 
> (unless someone has been around longer than me that I missed?). If for 
> some reason one becomes uncontactable the other two are very likely 
> still around.
>

Fair enough.

-- 
Jason Cobb

Re: DIS: [Webmastor] A Github Coup

[nch via agora-discussion]

On 6/14/20 8:55 AM, Jason Cobb via agora-discussion wrote:
> On 6/14/20 7:04 AM, nch via agora-discussion wrote:
>> A large number of members of the github were owners. Owners can
>> downgrade each other, delete repositories, and even delete the org.
>> Obviously these are all major security issues.
>>
>> I have made the following changes:
>>
>> * All members have read and write access to all repos
>>
>> * All members have been downgraded except me, g, and comex.
>>
>> Now that everyone has read and write access the vast majority of people 
>> shouldn't need to be owners. Please let me know if you have a reason you 
>> need to be.
>>
> Fine by me, although I am slightly concerned that bus factor for control
> of the Github org has been lowered considerably.
>
> --
> Jason Cobb
>
That's why I reduced it to the three longest-active players in the org 
(unless someone has been around longer than me that I missed?). If for 
some reason one becomes uncontactable the other two are very likely 
still around.

-- 
nch
Webmastor, NAX Exchange Manager, Pirate

Re: DIS: [Webmastor] A Github Coup

[Publius Scribonius Scholasticus via agora-discussion]

On 6/14/20 9:55 AM, Jason Cobb via agora-discussion wrote:

On 6/14/20 7:04 AM, nch via agora-discussion wrote:

A large number of members of the github were owners. Owners can
downgrade each other, delete repositories, and even delete the org.
Obviously these are all major security issues.

I have made the following changes:

* All members have read and write access to all repos

* All members have been downgraded except me, g, and comex.

Now that everyone has read and write access the vast majority of people 
shouldn't need to be owners. Please let me know if you have a reason you need 
to be.



Fine by me, although I am slightly concerned that bus factor for control
of the Github org has been lowered considerably.

In this regard, there will always be a tradeoff between security and 
resiliency. As it stands, we will always lose key infrastructure if 
either the domain name or mailing list controllers were hit by a bus, 
which I think are more serious concerns than loss of the GitHub 
organization.


--

Publius Scribonius Scholasticus, Herald, Referee, Tailor, Pirate
Champion, Badge of the Great Agoran Revival, Badge of the Salted Earth

Re: DIS: [Webmastor] A Github Coup

[Jason Cobb via agora-discussion]

On 6/14/20 7:04 AM, nch via agora-discussion wrote:
> A large number of members of the github were owners. Owners can 
> downgrade each other, delete repositories, and even delete the org. 
> Obviously these are all major security issues.
>
> I have made the following changes:
>
> * All members have read and write access to all repos
>
> * All members have been downgraded except me, g, and comex.
>
> Now that everyone has read and write access the vast majority of people 
> shouldn't need to be owners. Please let me know if you have a reason you need 
> to be.
>

Fine by me, although I am slightly concerned that bus factor for control
of the Github org has been lowered considerably.

-- 
Jason Cobb

Re: DIS: [Treasuror] New Report Format

[Rebecca via agora-discussion]

On Sun, Jun 14, 2020 at 11:14 PM lucidiot via agora-discussion <
agora-discussion@agoranomic.org> wrote:

> On Sunday 14 June 2020 09:00, Reuben Staley via agora-discussion wrote:
>
> > On 2020-06-13 21:53, Jason Cobb via agora-discussion wrote:
> >
> > > On 6/13/20 11:48 PM, lucidiot via agora-discussion wrote:
> > >
> > > > On Sunday 14 June 2020 05:33, Reuben Staley via agora-discussion
> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > On 2020-06-13 21:32, Jason Cobb via agora-discussion wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > > -- Trigon Speaker and Treasuror of Agora; Former Rulekeepor (12
> > > > > > > months) and Cartographor (8 months) of Agora; Champion of
> Agora by
> > > > > > > High Score and Proposal; Badge of the Salted Earth;
> Sixth-Longest
> > > > > > > Continually Registered Player of Agora; Player and former
> Emperor of
> > > > > > > BlogNomic; Player, Book-keeper, and originator of the
> Metaruleset of
> > > > > > > Infinite Nomic.
> > > > > > > And I thought this was going to be a temporary joke. How
> foolish of me.
> > > > > > > I'm going to keep it until someone has to come to me in
> desperation and
> > > > > > > beg me to remove it.
> > > > >
> > > > > --
> > > > > Trigon
> > > > > Speaker and Treasuror of Agora; Former Rulekeepor (12 months) and
> > > > > Cartographor (8 months) of Agora; Champion of Agora by High Score
> and
> > > > > Proposal; Badge of the Salted Earth; Sixth-Longest Continually
> > > > > Registered Player of Agora; Player and former Emperor of BlogNomic;
> > > > > Player, Book-keeper, and originator of the Metaruleset of Infinite
> Nomic.
> > > > > You might want to squeeze "Founder of the League of Agorans
> Facilitating Effective Recordkeeping" in there
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > ~lucidiot
> > >
> > > Also. "contributor to the Talk:Nomic page on Wikipedia".
> >
> > Welcome, lucidiot! It's always great to see new people who show interest
> > in our weird game.
> >
> > And thank you both for your wonderful contributions. I've added a few
> > new ones of my own as well. You are contributing to an important cause.
> >
> >
> -
> >
> > Trigon
> >
> > Speaker and Treasuror of Agora; Former Rulekeepor (12 months) and
> > Cartographor (8 months) of Agora; Champion of Agora by High Score and
> > Proposal; Bearer of the Badge of the Salted Earth; Founder of the League
> > of Agorans Facilitating Effective Recordkeeping; Arcadian Revivalist;
> > Sixth-Longest Continually Registered Player of Agora; Player and former
> > Emperor of BlogNomic; Player, Book-keeper, and Originator of the
> > Metaruleset of Infinite Nomic; Contributor to the nomic.club wiki and
> > the Talk:Nomic page on Wikipedia.
>
> Mmmhhh, could that turn into a Signature Length Tournament‽
>
> --
> ~lucidiot, far from winning the tournament
>

you could just put any old text in there though lol
-- 
>From R. Lee

Re: DIS: [Treasuror] New Report Format

[lucidiot via agora-discussion]

On Sunday 14 June 2020 09:00, Reuben Staley via agora-discussion wrote:

> On 2020-06-13 21:53, Jason Cobb via agora-discussion wrote:
>
> > On 6/13/20 11:48 PM, lucidiot via agora-discussion wrote:
> >
> > > On Sunday 14 June 2020 05:33, Reuben Staley via agora-discussion wrote:
> > >
> > > > On 2020-06-13 21:32, Jason Cobb via agora-discussion wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > > -- Trigon Speaker and Treasuror of Agora; Former Rulekeepor (12
> > > > > > months) and Cartographor (8 months) of Agora; Champion of Agora by
> > > > > > High Score and Proposal; Badge of the Salted Earth; Sixth-Longest
> > > > > > Continually Registered Player of Agora; Player and former Emperor of
> > > > > > BlogNomic; Player, Book-keeper, and originator of the Metaruleset of
> > > > > > Infinite Nomic.
> > > > > > And I thought this was going to be a temporary joke. How foolish of 
> > > > > > me.
> > > > > > I'm going to keep it until someone has to come to me in desperation 
> > > > > > and
> > > > > > beg me to remove it.
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > Trigon
> > > > Speaker and Treasuror of Agora; Former Rulekeepor (12 months) and
> > > > Cartographor (8 months) of Agora; Champion of Agora by High Score and
> > > > Proposal; Badge of the Salted Earth; Sixth-Longest Continually
> > > > Registered Player of Agora; Player and former Emperor of BlogNomic;
> > > > Player, Book-keeper, and originator of the Metaruleset of Infinite 
> > > > Nomic.
> > > > You might want to squeeze "Founder of the League of Agorans 
> > > > Facilitating Effective Recordkeeping" in there
> > >
> > > --
> > > ~lucidiot
> >
> > Also. "contributor to the Talk:Nomic page on Wikipedia".
>
> Welcome, lucidiot! It's always great to see new people who show interest
> in our weird game.
>
> And thank you both for your wonderful contributions. I've added a few
> new ones of my own as well. You are contributing to an important cause.
>
> -
>
> Trigon
>
> Speaker and Treasuror of Agora; Former Rulekeepor (12 months) and
> Cartographor (8 months) of Agora; Champion of Agora by High Score and
> Proposal; Bearer of the Badge of the Salted Earth; Founder of the League
> of Agorans Facilitating Effective Recordkeeping; Arcadian Revivalist;
> Sixth-Longest Continually Registered Player of Agora; Player and former
> Emperor of BlogNomic; Player, Book-keeper, and Originator of the
> Metaruleset of Infinite Nomic; Contributor to the nomic.club wiki and
> the Talk:Nomic page on Wikipedia.

Mmmhhh, could that turn into a Signature Length Tournament‽

--
~lucidiot, far from winning the tournament

Re: DIS: [Treasuror] New Report Format

[lucidiot via agora-discussion]

On Sunday 14 June 2020 08:30, Reuben Staley via agora-discussion wrote:

> On 2020-06-13 22:55, Reuben Staley wrote:
>
> > On 2020-06-13 22:27, Rebecca via agora-discussion wrote:
> >
> > > I personally dislike the new format as gmail does NOT give agoran
> > > messages
> > > to me in fixed width, thus I need to access the archives to read messages
> > > like this (which I forgot my password to years ago). I overall prefer
> > > less
> > > compactness in reports as I don't like the extreme misalignment that
> > > everything comes into my client with. But I'm aware that there's
> > > probably a
> > > way to fix this and it's just a me problem.
> > > I am open to suggestions if you have a different way to display this.
> > > I'm not going to have nine tables as big as the current one, but I am
> > > open to suggestions.
>
> Okay, so after I complained at you guys I realized that my table system
> is really similar to markdown's, which GitHub pages can interpret and
> turn into HTML.
>
> I wasn't planning on doing HTML reports for this office, but I had
> finally found an excuse to use awk for something, so whatever.
>
> Wow, that was a lot of boring words.
>
> TL;DR: https://agoranomic.org/Treasuror/test
>
> Tell me that's not beautiful. You can't!
>
> Also if any nerds are interested in the awk script I wrote I also
> uploaded that too okay bye
>
> https://github.com/AgoraNomic/Treasuror/blob/master/markdown.awk
>
> --
> Trigon
> Speaker and Treasuror of Agora; Former Rulekeepor (12 months) and
> Cartographor (8 months) of Agora; Champion of Agora by High Score and
> Proposal; Badge of the Salted Earth; Sixth-Longest Continually
> Registered Player of Agora; Player and former Emperor of BlogNomic;
> Player, Book-keeper, and originator of the Metaruleset of Infinite Nomic.

Nice indeed! I also just noticed your plaintext tables are rather similar to 
reStructuredText's simple tables [0], if you want to try something that works 
with the current format.

[0]: 
https://docutils.sourceforge.io/docs/ref/rst/restructuredtext.html#simple-tables

--
~lucidiot

Re: DIS: [Webmastor] Tiny Homepage Updates

[nch via agora-discussion]

On 6/14/20 7:53 AM, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus via agora-discussion 
wrote:
> On 6/14/20 8:26 AM, nch via agora-discussion wrote:
>> I did some updates to the homepage, keeping it mostly the same as it
>> was. I bolded most (missed a couple that will be fixed next time I
>> update it) of the numbers and dates we should be updating regularly both
>> to catch visitors' eyes and to shame us into fixing them when they get
>> stale.
>>
>> I plan to delete the historical records section when those links are
>> migrated to a more appropriate spot, and add New Player and Glossary
>> pages that will be linked on the right side as well as the header. Still
>> open to suggestions.
>>
> Looking at the changes, I think they all seem like improvements;
> however, I'm generally unsure about the etiquette around making changes.
> Maybe this is something that the Webmastor should issue Regulations to
> address, or maybe a rule should be adopted, but until that point, I
> think we should err on the side of consensus-seeking.
>
> --
> 
> Publius Scribonius Scholasticus, Herald, Referee, Tailor, Pirate
> Champion, Badge of the Great Agoran Revival, Badge of the Salted Earth

That's a good point. I'll look into some sort of without objection 
mechanism in the future.

-- 
nch
Webmastor, NAX Exchange Manager, Pirate

Re: DIS: [Webmastor] Tiny Homepage Updates

[Publius Scribonius Scholasticus via agora-discussion]

On 6/14/20 8:26 AM, nch via agora-discussion wrote:

I did some updates to the homepage, keeping it mostly the same as it
was. I bolded most (missed a couple that will be fixed next time I
update it) of the numbers and dates we should be updating regularly both
to catch visitors' eyes and to shame us into fixing them when they get
stale.

I plan to delete the historical records section when those links are
migrated to a more appropriate spot, and add New Player and Glossary
pages that will be linked on the right side as well as the header. Still
open to suggestions.



Looking at the changes, I think they all seem like improvements; 
however, I'm generally unsure about the etiquette around making changes. 
Maybe this is something that the Webmastor should issue Regulations to 
address, or maybe a rule should be adopted, but until that point, I 
think we should err on the side of consensus-seeking.


--

Publius Scribonius Scholasticus, Herald, Referee, Tailor, Pirate
Champion, Badge of the Great Agoran Revival, Badge of the Salted Earth

Re: DIS: [Webmastor] Informal Polling

[lucidiot via agora-discussion]

On Sunday 14 June 2020 08:55, Reuben Staley via agora-discussion wrote:

> For some reason or another (probably that we're mentioned on the Nomic 
> Wikipedia page) people can find Agora.

That's how I found Agora myself! I later learned about Infinite Nomic by 
clicking on links and finding a mention of it on nomic.club [0], but I do not 
have a Discord account.

I have been playing around on pubnixes for a while, and co-founded one with a 
friend, centered around baking bread and more generally building and repairing 
things yourself instead of buying and throwing away [1].

I discovered Nomic right during that time and found out there has been an 
attempt from others in a similar community to make a game of Nomic on GitHub 
[2], but it is now dead, so I have been trying to revive this concept on my own 
pubnix [3] and started watching y'all to get inspired! Right now we are waiting 
on 1 (one) more player as Rule 215 states we need 5 to start.

[0]: https://nomic.club/wiki/index.php/Infinite_Nomic
[1]: https://breadpunk.club/
[2]: https://github.com/audiodude/tiny-nomic
[3]: https://tildegit.org/breadpunk/nomic

--
~lucidiot

DIS: [Webmastor] Tiny Homepage Updates

[nch via agora-discussion]

I did some updates to the homepage, keeping it mostly the same as it 
was. I bolded most (missed a couple that will be fixed next time I 
update it) of the numbers and dates we should be updating regularly both 
to catch visitors' eyes and to shame us into fixing them when they get 
stale.

I plan to delete the historical records section when those links are 
migrated to a more appropriate spot, and add New Player and Glossary 
pages that will be linked on the right side as well as the header. Still 
open to suggestions.

-- 
nch
Webmastor, NAX Exchange Manager, Pirate

Re: DIS: [Webmastor] Informal Polling

[nch via agora-discussion]

On 6/14/20 5:03 AM, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus via agora-discussion 
wrote:
>> * What resources do you wish were online?
> I'd like to put my reports online since people seem to want them all to
> be online, but I don't currently have write access to the Agoran
> repositories.
>
You have read and write access in the org now (as does every member). 
Let me know if you need anything else.

-- 
nch
Webmastor, NAX Exchange Manager, Pirate

DIS: [Webmastor] A Github Coup

[nch via agora-discussion]

A large number of members of the github were owners. Owners can 
downgrade each other, delete repositories, and even delete the org. 
Obviously these are all major security issues.

I have made the following changes:

* All members have read and write access to all repos

* All members have been downgraded except me, g, and comex.

Now that everyone has read and write access the vast majority of people 
shouldn't need to be owners. Please let me know if you have a reason you need 
to be.

-- 
nch
Webmastor, NAX Exchange Manager, Pirate

Re: DIS: [Webmastor] Informal Polling

[nch via agora-discussion]

On 6/14/20 5:36 AM, nch via agora-discussion wrote:
> On 6/14/20 5:03 AM, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus via agora-discussion
> wrote:
>>> * What kinds of tips should go on a New Player page?
>> I'd include a description of the customs and systems that aren't
>> described in the ruleset and a short description of major game actions
>> and any major systems we are using at the time. In the past, I think
>> this hasn't worked because one player has taken it upon themselves, but
>> I think if we did it collaboratively, we could get it done.
>>
> Ironically I set up a github based Wiki in 2016 to address this but
> nobody ever updated it. In retrospect I think it's unnecessary anyway
> because most players that have wanted to help with the website seem
> comfortable using git to some extent (and if it's all text you can edit
> it from github directly anyway).

I should say more here: I'm not actually convinced a webpage is good for 
summarizing gameplay. It just seems to have never worked well 
historically. Part of that is infrequent updating, but another part is 
that play rarely happens as intended/expected. I'm going to focus on 
adding content that is more independent of current subgames and trends, 
but if someone else works on this sort of thing I'll be happy to 
integrate it where it makes sense.

-- 
nch
Webmastor, NAX Exchange Manager, Pirate

Re: DIS: [Webmastor] Informal Polling

[nch via agora-discussion]

On 6/13/20 10:43 PM, lucidiot via agora-discussion wrote:
> Hello there!  First time posting here!
>
> I have been watching the lists for a bit more than a month now, and as I have 
> been trying to keep up with the updates and understand all the concepts of 
> Agora, I feel like I am in a pretty good spot to share some thoughts.
>
> I also have a general interest in understanding Agora's history, preserving 
> it, and making it easier to access; I would definitely love to help the 
> Webmastor in general!

Wow! Thank you for the detailed feedback from fresh eyes! It'll be 
extremely helpful when trying to design content aimed at newer players.

And always feel free to jump in and try your best in whatever capacity. 
The rules don't actually require you to do anything but occasionally 
post. I recently looked at stuff I did when I first joined and I think 
for a couple months I made more mistakes than not, but people were quick 
to help me fix them.

-- 
nch
Webmastor, NAX Exchange Manager, Pirate

Re: DIS: [Webmastor] Informal Polling

[nch via agora-discussion]

On 6/14/20 5:03 AM, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus via agora-discussion 
wrote:
>> * What kinds of tips should go on a New Player page?
> I'd include a description of the customs and systems that aren't
> described in the ruleset and a short description of major game actions
> and any major systems we are using at the time. In the past, I think
> this hasn't worked because one player has taken it upon themselves, but
> I think if we did it collaboratively, we could get it done.
>
Ironically I set up a github based Wiki in 2016 to address this but 
nobody ever updated it. In retrospect I think it's unnecessary anyway 
because most players that have wanted to help with the website seem 
comfortable using git to some extent (and if it's all text you can edit 
it from github directly anyway).

-- 
nch
Webmastor, NAX Exchange Manager, Pirate

Re: DIS: [Treasuror] New Report Format

[nch via agora-discussion]

On 6/14/20 1:30 AM, Reuben Staley via agora-discussion wrote:
> Okay, so after I complained at you guys I realized that my table system
> is really similar to markdown's, which GitHub pages can interpret and
> turn into HTML.
>
> I wasn't planning on doing HTML reports for this office, but I had
> finally found an excuse to use awk for something, so whatever.
>
> Wow, that was a lot of boring words.
>
> TL;DR:https://agoranomic.org/Treasuror/test
>
> Tell me that's not beautiful. You can't!
>
> Also if any nerds are interested in the awk script I wrote I also
> uploaded that too okay bye
>
> https://github.com/AgoraNomic/Treasuror/blob/master/markdown.awk

It looks lovely. One recommendation: Put a timestamp on there for when 
that page was updated, since asset possession is likely to change 
frequently within a day.

-- 
nch
Webmastor, NAX Exchange Manager, Pirate

Re: DIS: [Webmastor] Informal Polling

[Alex Smith via agora-discussion]

 On Sunday, 14 June 2020, 11:15:58 GMT+1, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus via 
agora-discussion  wrote:
> On 6/14/20 6:11 AM, Cuddle Beam via agora-discussion wrote:
> > Links to all thesis, we have so many lost ones
> 
> We have many of the theses in GitHub. If you know of any others
> available online, let me know so that I can archive them.

These don't seem to be linked from the agoranomic.org homepage.

I think that *everything* that we're tracking online should be linked from 
there. Otherwise, new people will never find it.

-- 
ais523  

Re: DIS: [Webmastor] Informal Polling

[Publius Scribonius Scholasticus via agora-discussion]

On 6/14/20 6:11 AM, Cuddle Beam via agora-discussion wrote:

I should answer the whole thing actually

* What should be on the main page? [it's pretty outdated now, and I feel
like it could use a facelift and some new copy]

I think it's good actually. The "Historical Records" thing could be
updated/removed but it's otherwise very fine imo.

* What kinds of tips should go on a New Player page?

[Answered previously]

* What online resources do you use the most?
On a scale of 1-10, where 10 is every time I play Agora, and 1 is hardly
ever:
Email archives:
10: discussion
8: business
4: official
3: The Ruleset
1: Anything else

* What resources do you wish were online?

Links to all thesis, we have so many lost ones


We have many of the theses in GitHub. If you know of any others 
available online, let me know so that I can archive them.




* How do you access Agora? [your email's web client, a desktop client,
phone client]

Archives to read, normal Gmail client to read/reply

* Any tips or tricks that you use on the devices/software that you
access Agora through that you find indispensable?

Nope

* Anything else that you think would help improve the web content?

Not that I can think of right now

On Sun, Jun 14, 2020 at 3:27 AM nch via agora-discussion <
agora-discussion@agoranomic.org> wrote:


Some questions to help me plan some improvements to the web content.

* What should be on the main page? [it's pretty outdated now, and I feel
like it could use a facelift and some new copy]

* What kinds of tips should go on a New Player page?

* What online resources do you use the most?

* What resources do you wish were online?

* How do you access Agora? [your email's web client, a desktop client,
phone client]

* Any tips or tricks that you use on the devices/software that you
access Agora through that you find indispensable?

* Anything else that you think would help improve the web content?

--
nch
Webmastor, NAX Exchange Manager, Pirate






--

Publius Scribonius Scholasticus, Herald, Referee, Tailor, Pirate
Champion, Badge of the Great Agoran Revival, Badge of the Salted Earth

Re: DIS: [Webmastor] Informal Polling

[Cuddle Beam via agora-discussion]

I should answer the whole thing actually

* What should be on the main page? [it's pretty outdated now, and I feel
like it could use a facelift and some new copy]

I think it's good actually. The "Historical Records" thing could be
updated/removed but it's otherwise very fine imo.

* What kinds of tips should go on a New Player page?

[Answered previously]

* What online resources do you use the most?
On a scale of 1-10, where 10 is every time I play Agora, and 1 is hardly
ever:
Email archives:
10: discussion
8: business
4: official
3: The Ruleset
1: Anything else

* What resources do you wish were online?

Links to all thesis, we have so many lost ones

* How do you access Agora? [your email's web client, a desktop client,
phone client]

Archives to read, normal Gmail client to read/reply

* Any tips or tricks that you use on the devices/software that you
access Agora through that you find indispensable?

Nope

* Anything else that you think would help improve the web content?

Not that I can think of right now

On Sun, Jun 14, 2020 at 3:27 AM nch via agora-discussion <
agora-discussion@agoranomic.org> wrote:

> Some questions to help me plan some improvements to the web content.
>
> * What should be on the main page? [it's pretty outdated now, and I feel
> like it could use a facelift and some new copy]
>
> * What kinds of tips should go on a New Player page?
>
> * What online resources do you use the most?
>
> * What resources do you wish were online?
>
> * How do you access Agora? [your email's web client, a desktop client,
> phone client]
>
> * Any tips or tricks that you use on the devices/software that you
> access Agora through that you find indispensable?
>
> * Anything else that you think would help improve the web content?
>
> --
> nch
> Webmastor, NAX Exchange Manager, Pirate
>
>
>

DIS: [Attn: grok, G.] Re: BUS: PSS: Bribery

[Publius Scribonius Scholasticus via agora-discussion]

On 6/13/20 9:26 PM, Rebecca via agora-business wrote:

PSS: I'm working towards winning by ribbons now, and I would like to make
this bribe.

I pledge to timely give you all my cards or Products except for Legislative
Cards or products if you give me a Grey ribbon later this month and also
not to circumvent this pledge by sketchy transferring.



Given that I have official discretion on the matter, I'll probably 
fulfill this, but I would appreciate comments from grok and G. who are 
ahead of you in line.



--

Publius Scribonius Scholasticus, Herald, Referee, Tailor, Pirate
Champion, Badge of the Great Agoran Revival, Badge of the Salted Earth

Re: DIS: [Webmastor] Informal Polling

[Publius Scribonius Scholasticus via agora-discussion]

On 6/13/20 9:27 PM, nch via agora-discussion wrote:

Some questions to help me plan some improvements to the web content.

* What should be on the main page? [it's pretty outdated now, and I feel
like it could use a facelift and some new copy]


I'd personally lean towards simply updating what we have because I like 
the look and vibe of it, but I understand that many others feel 
differently; however, I am strongly opposed to replacing it with a blog 
because, in the past, we have tended to stop using that.




* What kinds of tips should go on a New Player page?


I'd include a description of the customs and systems that aren't 
described in the ruleset and a short description of major game actions 
and any major systems we are using at the time. In the past, I think 
this hasn't worked because one player has taken it upon themselves, but 
I think if we did it collaboratively, we could get it done.




* What online resources do you use the most?


In order:

* The ruleset
* CFJ Archives
* Mailman archives



* What resources do you wish were online?


I'd like to put my reports online since people seem to want them all to 
be online, but I don't currently have write access to the Agoran 
repositories.




* How do you access Agora? [your email's web client, a desktop client,
phone client]


I use a webclient, Thunderbird, and a phone client.



* Any tips or tricks that you use on the devices/software that you
access Agora through that you find indispensable? >
* Anything else that you think would help improve the web content?



I think producing some documentation about how to produce content for 
the website would be helpful.


--

Publius Scribonius Scholasticus, Herald, Referee, Tailor, Pirate
Champion, Badge of the Great Agoran Revival, Badge of the Salted Earth

Re: DIS: [Webmastor] Informal Polling

[Cuddle Beam via agora-discussion]

>* What kinds of tips should go on a New Player page?
Just ad libbing this but:

- Something that acknowledges that Agora's learning curve to being fully
fluent in it is steep and huge, but that it's not necessary to have a full
grip on everything to play. Plenty of players don't have a full command of
the rules, and players helping players (ie. Protosal discussion, Grat.
Arguments in CfJs) is a very common thing in Agora culture.
- If a Rule has obscure wording, very often its scope is obscure as well,
so you don't need to worry too much about understanding it in depth because
it most likely won't be relevant to things you do.
- There exist a shitload of "invisible rules" in the form of CfJs. They are
an absolute nightmare on top of an already massive Ruleset - but don't
worry too much about them. Veteran players can lawyer for you and bring up
which are relevant when they pop up.
- Posting prototypes of your Proposals (Protosals) are common, and as a
new player, feel free to post your own Prototypes for Proposals, Contracts,
etc for others to review and help you with. It's not just a 'new player'
thing to do, veteran players often post Prototypes like this for help as
well.

On Sun, Jun 14, 2020 at 3:27 AM nch via agora-discussion <
agora-discussion@agoranomic.org> wrote:

> Some questions to help me plan some improvements to the web content.
>
> * What should be on the main page? [it's pretty outdated now, and I feel
> like it could use a facelift and some new copy]
>
> * What kinds of tips should go on a New Player page?
>
> * What online resources do you use the most?
>
> * What resources do you wish were online?
>
> * How do you access Agora? [your email's web client, a desktop client,
> phone client]
>
> * Any tips or tricks that you use on the devices/software that you
> access Agora through that you find indispensable?
>
> * Anything else that you think would help improve the web content?
>
> --
> nch
> Webmastor, NAX Exchange Manager, Pirate
>
>
>

Re: DIS: [Webmastor] Informal Polling

[Publius Scribonius Scholasticus via agora-discussion]

On Sun, Jun 14, 2020 at 12:44 AM Rebecca via agora-discussion
 wrote:
>
> we can be a little overly rude to people who misinterpret the rules or
> forget about a rule or two but if anyone actually tries to tell you they've
> never made a similar mistake or that they actually understand and remember
> all the rules, they are lying.
>

This is very important to remember. In the same vein, if you aren't
sure about the intended tone or if something seems direct, assume the
best because they probably aren't attacking you.

-- 

Publius Scribonius Scholasticus, Herald, Referee, Tailor, Pirate
Champion, Badge of the Great Agoran Revival, Badge of the Salted Earth

Re: DIS: [Treasuror] New Report Format

[Rebecca via agora-discussion]

On Sun, Jun 14, 2020 at 5:21 PM Aris Merchant via agora-discussion <
agora-discussion@agoranomic.org> wrote:

> On Sat, Jun 13, 2020 at 11:30 PM Reuben Staley via agora-discussion
>  wrote:
> >
> > On 2020-06-13 22:55, Reuben Staley wrote:
> > > On 2020-06-13 22:27, Rebecca via agora-discussion wrote:
> > >> I personally dislike the new format as gmail does NOT give agoran
> > >> messages
> > >> to me in fixed width, thus I need to access the archives to read
> messages
> > >> like this (which I forgot my password to years ago). I overall prefer
> > >> less
> > >> compactness in reports as I don't like the extreme misalignment that
> > >> everything comes into my client with. But I'm aware that there's
> > >> probably a
> > >> way to fix this and it's just a me problem.
> > > I am open to suggestions if you have a different way to display this.
> > > I'm not going to have nine tables as big as the current one, but I am
> > > open to suggestions.
> >
> > Okay, so after I complained at you guys I realized that my table system
> > is really similar to markdown's, which GitHub pages can interpret and
> > turn into HTML.
> >
> > I wasn't planning on doing HTML reports for this office, but I had
> > finally found an excuse to use awk for something, so whatever.
> >
> > Wow, that was a lot of boring words.
> >
> > TL;DR: https://agoranomic.org/Treasuror/test
> >
> > Tell me that's not beautiful. You can't!
>
> It is beautiful. It's a lot easier to read too. I was going to tell em
> how to make gmail do that tomorrow when I had energy, but this is so
> good I'll probably be using instead of the email version.
>
> -Aris
>
its very nice

-- 
>From R. Lee

Re: DIS: [Treasuror] New Report Format

[Aris Merchant via agora-discussion]

On Sat, Jun 13, 2020 at 11:30 PM Reuben Staley via agora-discussion
 wrote:
>
> On 2020-06-13 22:55, Reuben Staley wrote:
> > On 2020-06-13 22:27, Rebecca via agora-discussion wrote:
> >> I personally dislike the new format as gmail does NOT give agoran
> >> messages
> >> to me in fixed width, thus I need to access the archives to read messages
> >> like this (which I forgot my password to years ago). I overall prefer
> >> less
> >> compactness in reports as I don't like the extreme misalignment that
> >> everything comes into my client with. But I'm aware that there's
> >> probably a
> >> way to fix this and it's just a me problem.
> > I am open to suggestions if you have a different way to display this.
> > I'm not going to have nine tables as big as the current one, but I am
> > open to suggestions.
>
> Okay, so after I complained at you guys I realized that my table system
> is really similar to markdown's, which GitHub pages can interpret and
> turn into HTML.
>
> I wasn't planning on doing HTML reports for this office, but I had
> finally found an excuse to use awk for something, so whatever.
>
> Wow, that was a lot of boring words.
>
> TL;DR: https://agoranomic.org/Treasuror/test
>
> Tell me that's not beautiful. You can't!

It is beautiful. It's a lot easier to read too. I was going to tell em
how to make gmail do that tomorrow when I had energy, but this is so
good I'll probably be using instead of the email version.

-Aris

Re: DIS: [Treasuror] New Report Format

[Reuben Staley via agora-discussion]

On 2020-06-13 21:53, Jason Cobb via agora-discussion wrote:

On 6/13/20 11:48 PM, lucidiot via agora-discussion wrote:

On Sunday 14 June 2020 05:33, Reuben Staley via agora-discussion wrote:


On 2020-06-13 21:32, Jason Cobb via agora-discussion wrote:


-- Trigon Speaker and Treasuror of Agora; Former Rulekeepor (12
months) and Cartographor (8 months) of Agora; Champion of Agora by
High Score and Proposal; Badge of the Salted Earth; Sixth-Longest
Continually Registered Player of Agora; Player and former Emperor of
BlogNomic; Player, Book-keeper, and originator of the Metaruleset of
Infinite Nomic.

And I thought this was going to be a temporary joke. How foolish of me.

I'm going to keep it until someone has to come to me in desperation and
beg me to remove it.

--
Trigon
Speaker and Treasuror of Agora; Former Rulekeepor (12 months) and
Cartographor (8 months) of Agora; Champion of Agora by High Score and
Proposal; Badge of the Salted Earth; Sixth-Longest Continually
Registered Player of Agora; Player and former Emperor of BlogNomic;
Player, Book-keeper, and originator of the Metaruleset of Infinite Nomic.

You might want to squeeze "Founder of the League of Agorans Facilitating Effective 
Recordkeeping" in there

--
~lucidiot



Also. "contributor to the Talk:Nomic page on Wikipedia".



Welcome, lucidiot! It's always great to see new people who show interest 
in our weird game.


And thank you both for your wonderful contributions. I've added a few 
new ones of my own as well. You are contributing to an important cause.


--
Trigon

Speaker and Treasuror of Agora; Former Rulekeepor (12 months) and 
Cartographor (8 months) of Agora; Champion of Agora by High Score and 
Proposal; Bearer of the Badge of the Salted Earth; Founder of the League 
of Agorans Facilitating Effective Recordkeeping; Arcadian Revivalist; 
Sixth-Longest Continually Registered Player of Agora; Player and former 
Emperor of BlogNomic; Player, Book-keeper, and Originator of the 
Metaruleset of Infinite Nomic; Contributor to the nomic.club wiki and 
the Talk:Nomic page on Wikipedia.