Re: [altusmetrum] Bulging LiPo battery

[Peter Hackett]

Thanks Bryan.

I don't have any old laptop batteries, but I do have some old electric  RC
model
airplane packs. I think the ones I have are two or three cells in series.
(Thunder Power I think)

Anyone care to guess as to whether I'd be able to open a pack up and
harvest one of
the cells?


On Tue, Sep 10, 2013 at 10:06 PM, Schmidt, Bryan wrote:

> Potential hack solution...  I have several times taken apart old laptop
> batteries to repurpose the individual cells inside.  Quite old ones will
> have cylindrical Li-Ion cells, 4.1V charge cutoff.  Newer will have several
> Li-Poly cells.  In almost all cases, the protection circuitry is
> centralized on a piece of PCB.  So (carefully!) cut the leads and you can
> get at individual unprotected cells.  While these are bulky, at old age
> they still have quite a lot of capacity and into a short can still put out
> pretty amazing current.
>
> Personally I'd go to the RC store and find something that has a high
> current rating, such as for small RC helicopters, and just pay careful
> attention to polarity as already suggested.  Since you are using ematches,
> you probably don't need much current to set them off, and they are fairly
> likely to be open-circuit after they are fired, so *likely* you never draw
> more than the protection circuit is rated for anyway.  However, lots of
> variables, and easy to armchair advise from here...
>
> Good luck in any case.
> -Bryan
>
>
>
>
> On Tue, Sep 10, 2013 at 5:31 PM, Plugger Lockett <
> plugger.lock...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I'm pretty sure I packed a 600mAh spare if you think that will suit your
>> needs. I'm Andrew Hamilton and will be in the Australian camp. See you on
>> the playa!
>>  On 11/09/2013 8:40 AM, "Sam Fineberg"  wrote:
>>
>>>  Peter,
>>> You might ask Mike @ BAR.  He had some Telemetrium gear the last time I
>>> looked.  He might be able to pull a battery out of a bundle kit if you
>>> asked nicely.
>>>
>>> Sam
>>>
>>> On 9/10/2013 3:23 PM, Keith Packard wrote:
>>>
>>> Peter Hackett  
>>>  writes:
>>>
>>>
>>>  I'm off to Black Rock on Thursday. Not sure I'll be able to replace it by
>>> then.
>>> (I'm assuming it would be hard to find the right battery locally)
>>>
>>>  Yeah, we use the same connector as some helicopter batteries, but the
>>> polarity is reversed, which would destroy both battery and board if you
>>> plug them together.
>>>
>>> Bdale has a pile of current stock, but he's in California until tomorrow
>>> evening. I don't have any of the larger size left at this point or I'd
>>> offer to ship one from here.
>>>
>>> We get them from SparkFun though, and they do offer overnight shipping:
>>>
>>> https://www.sparkfun.com/products/341
>>>
>>> However, if you want to use them to fire charges, you'll need to remove
>>> the current limiter board. If left in place, the battery will shut down
>>> as soon as you try to fire a charge, leaving the board dead in the
>>> air. Older SparkFun batteries had a different protection circuit which
>>> worked fine with TeleMetrum, newer SparkFun batteries nearly always fail.
>>>
>>> It's a pretty simple soldering job, if you're up for the adventure.
>>>
>>> http://www.altusmetrum.org/Documents/FixBattery/
>>>
>>>  Anyone want to chime in on whether AAA's will be big enough?
>>>
>>>   Also,  I guess I should be concerned about battery internal resistance.
>>> Will 3 standard alkaline
>>> batteries in series be able to provide enough current to light the
>>> e-matches?
>>>
>>>  Not recommended for a couple of reasons:
>>>
>>>  *) TeleMetrum will try to charge them when plugged in over USB. There's
>>> no way to disable the charger, and the board cannot run without a
>>> battery in place.
>>>
>>>  *) AAA batteries have a higher internal resistance than lithium
>>> polymer batteries, which means if you try to fire an e-match, the
>>> voltage seen by the board will drop low enough to reset the board.
>>>
>>>
>>>  RE over-charge:
>>>
>>> Can that happen using the TeleMetrum to do the charging?
>>>
>>>  The charge controller on TeleMetrum shouldn't be able to overcharge an
>>> undamaged battery. I've left them plugged in for weeks at a time without
>>> problems.
>>>
>>> -keith
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ___
>>> altusmetrum mailing 
>>> listaltusmet...@lists.gag.comhttp://lists.gag.com/mailman/listinfo/altusmetrum
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ___
>>> altusmetrum mailing list
>>> altusmetrum@lists.gag.com
>>> http://lists.gag.com/mailman/listinfo/altusmetrum
>>>
>>>
>> ___
>> altusmetrum mailing list
>> altusmetrum@lists.gag.com
>> http://lists.gag.com/mailman/listinfo/altusmetrum
>>
>>
>
> ___
> altusmetrum mailing list
> altusmetrum@lists.gag.com
> http://lists.gag.com/mailman/listinfo/altusmetrum
>
>
___
altusmetrum mailing list
altusmetrum@l

Re: [altusmetrum] Bulging LiPo battery

[Keith Packard]

Peter Hackett  writes:

> RE: My previous "Anyone care to guess as to whether I'd be able to open a
> pack up and harvest one of
>  the cells?"
>
> On re-reading it seems poorly composed.
>
> What I *meant* is:
>
> "Is opening up an electric RC model airplane lithium battery with 2 or 3
> cells in series
> likely to be fairly easy for someone that isn't afraid of
>
> http://www.altusmetrum.org/Documents/FixBattery/

The ones I've seen are just single cells taped together. Easy
enough. Although, please do be aware that shorting the batteries is a
good way to get the to catch fire, and burning lithium is not a fun
place to be.

-keith


pgp4PslL8ei8p.pgp
Description: PGP signature
___
altusmetrum mailing list
altusmetrum@lists.gag.com
http://lists.gag.com/mailman/listinfo/altusmetrum

Re: [altusmetrum] Bulging LiPo battery

[Keith Packard]

Peter Hackett  writes:

> Thanks Keith. Especially for:
>
>> ... appears to be rated to only 4.4V. 3 AA batteries
>>  will nominally run 4.5V; .. doesn't bode well for the health of this
> power supply...
>
> I tried this out last night but only had it plugged in long enough to hear
> the
> "I'm horizontal and okey-doky" beeps.
>
> Hopeful a few seconds won't have done any lasting damage.

Yeah, 4.4V isn't far from 4.5V, but running electronics out of spec is
never a great plan...

If the accelerometer continues to work to detect pad vs idle mode,
you're probably fine.

-keith


pgp3ZfVzTE3Id.pgp
Description: PGP signature
___
altusmetrum mailing list
altusmetrum@lists.gag.com
http://lists.gag.com/mailman/listinfo/altusmetrum

Re: [altusmetrum] Bulging LiPo battery

[Peter Hackett]

Thanks Keith. Especially for:

> ... appears to be rated to only 4.4V. 3 AA batteries
>  will nominally run 4.5V; .. doesn't bode well for the health of this
power supply...

I tried this out last night but only had it plugged in long enough to hear
the
"I'm horizontal and okey-doky" beeps.

Hopeful a few seconds won't have done any lasting damage.



On Wed, Sep 11, 2013 at 12:13 PM, Keith Packard  wrote:

> Peter Hackett  writes:
>
> > I charged the battery by plugging it in to a USB charger.
> > I *did* leave it for (I think) two days. But it sounds like this should
> be
> > OK.
>
> Should have been, unless the battery was broken.
>
> > I've always had "trouble" with charging (at the very least "confusion")
> > I've had situations where I know it needs charging (software says the
> > voltage is
> > low) but the charge light doesn't go on (usually.)
> > So I now just "plug it in (for a long time) and check it".
>
> If it's been with this same battery, then I suspect it was damaged some
> time ago.
>
> > So it looks like the only (quick, complete) solution is a new battery
> that
> > I modify
> > by removing the protection circuit.
>
> Right, any 3.7V lithium polymer battery should be fine; you can get
> these at many hobby stores that sell RC vehicles. Just take the wire off
> the dead battery and stick it on a good one and you should be in great
> shape.
>
> > Given your information, it seems like other possibilities are:
> >
> > - Use 3 AAA batteries to power the TeleMetrum.
> > - Use a separate Pyro battery as documented at
> >   http://www.altusmetrum.org/Documents/SeparatePyroBattery/
> > - (don't plug the TeleMetrum into USB)
> >
> > OR
> >
> > - Use 3 AAA batteries to power the TeleMetrum.
> > - Use my StratoLogger to fire the e-matches.
> > - (don't plug the TeleMetrum into USB)
>
> Hrm. There's a LTC1682 5V charge-pump supply on TeleMetrum for the
> accelerometer and that appears to be rated to only 4.4V. 3 AA batteries
> will nominally run 4.5V; I'd assume at full charge they'd be slightly
> higher, which doesn't bode well for the health of this power supply...
>
> -keith
>
___
altusmetrum mailing list
altusmetrum@lists.gag.com
http://lists.gag.com/mailman/listinfo/altusmetrum

Re: [altusmetrum] Bulging LiPo battery

[Peter Hackett]

RE: My previous "Anyone care to guess as to whether I'd be able to open a
pack up and harvest one of
 the cells?"

On re-reading it seems poorly composed.

What I *meant* is:

"Is opening up an electric RC model airplane lithium battery with 2 or 3
cells in series
likely to be fairly easy for someone that isn't afraid of

http://www.altusmetrum.org/Documents/FixBattery/

?

And/or have any thoughts or caveats re the above.




On Wed, Sep 11, 2013 at 10:47 AM, Peter Hackett <
peter.hack...@cal.berkeley.edu> wrote:

> Thanks Bryan.
>
> I don't have any old laptop batteries, but I do have some old electric  RC
> model
> airplane packs. I think the ones I have are two or three cells in series.
> (Thunder Power I think)
>
> Anyone care to guess as to whether I'd be able to open a pack up and
> harvest one of
> the cells?
>
>
> On Tue, Sep 10, 2013 at 10:06 PM, Schmidt, Bryan 
> wrote:
>
>> Potential hack solution...  I have several times taken apart old laptop
>> batteries to repurpose the individual cells inside.  Quite old ones will
>> have cylindrical Li-Ion cells, 4.1V charge cutoff.  Newer will have several
>> Li-Poly cells.  In almost all cases, the protection circuitry is
>> centralized on a piece of PCB.  So (carefully!) cut the leads and you can
>> get at individual unprotected cells.  While these are bulky, at old age
>> they still have quite a lot of capacity and into a short can still put out
>> pretty amazing current.
>>
>> Personally I'd go to the RC store and find something that has a high
>> current rating, such as for small RC helicopters, and just pay careful
>> attention to polarity as already suggested.  Since you are using ematches,
>> you probably don't need much current to set them off, and they are fairly
>> likely to be open-circuit after they are fired, so *likely* you never draw
>> more than the protection circuit is rated for anyway.  However, lots of
>> variables, and easy to armchair advise from here...
>>
>> Good luck in any case.
>> -Bryan
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Sep 10, 2013 at 5:31 PM, Plugger Lockett <
>> plugger.lock...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> I'm pretty sure I packed a 600mAh spare if you think that will suit your
>>> needs. I'm Andrew Hamilton and will be in the Australian camp. See you on
>>> the playa!
>>>  On 11/09/2013 8:40 AM, "Sam Fineberg"  wrote:
>>>
  Peter,
 You might ask Mike @ BAR.  He had some Telemetrium gear the last time I
 looked.  He might be able to pull a battery out of a bundle kit if you
 asked nicely.

 Sam

 On 9/10/2013 3:23 PM, Keith Packard wrote:

 Peter Hackett  
  writes:


  I'm off to Black Rock on Thursday. Not sure I'll be able to replace it by
 then.
 (I'm assuming it would be hard to find the right battery locally)

  Yeah, we use the same connector as some helicopter batteries, but the
 polarity is reversed, which would destroy both battery and board if you
 plug them together.

 Bdale has a pile of current stock, but he's in California until tomorrow
 evening. I don't have any of the larger size left at this point or I'd
 offer to ship one from here.

 We get them from SparkFun though, and they do offer overnight shipping:

 https://www.sparkfun.com/products/341

 However, if you want to use them to fire charges, you'll need to remove
 the current limiter board. If left in place, the battery will shut down
 as soon as you try to fire a charge, leaving the board dead in the
 air. Older SparkFun batteries had a different protection circuit which
 worked fine with TeleMetrum, newer SparkFun batteries nearly always fail.

 It's a pretty simple soldering job, if you're up for the adventure.

 http://www.altusmetrum.org/Documents/FixBattery/

  Anyone want to chime in on whether AAA's will be big enough?

   Also,  I guess I should be concerned about battery internal resistance.
 Will 3 standard alkaline
 batteries in series be able to provide enough current to light the
 e-matches?

  Not recommended for a couple of reasons:

  *) TeleMetrum will try to charge them when plugged in over USB. There's
 no way to disable the charger, and the board cannot run without a
 battery in place.

  *) AAA batteries have a higher internal resistance than lithium
 polymer batteries, which means if you try to fire an e-match, the
 voltage seen by the board will drop low enough to reset the board.


  RE over-charge:

 Can that happen using the TeleMetrum to do the charging?

  The charge controller on TeleMetrum shouldn't be able to overcharge an
 undamaged battery. I've left them plugged in for weeks at a time without
 problems.

 -keith



 ___
 altusmetrum mailing 
 listal

Re: [altusmetrum] Bulging LiPo battery

[Keith Packard]

Peter Hackett  writes:

> I charged the battery by plugging it in to a USB charger.
> I *did* leave it for (I think) two days. But it sounds like this should be
> OK.

Should have been, unless the battery was broken.

> I've always had "trouble" with charging (at the very least "confusion")
> I've had situations where I know it needs charging (software says the
> voltage is
> low) but the charge light doesn't go on (usually.)
> So I now just "plug it in (for a long time) and check it".

If it's been with this same battery, then I suspect it was damaged some
time ago.

> So it looks like the only (quick, complete) solution is a new battery that
> I modify
> by removing the protection circuit.

Right, any 3.7V lithium polymer battery should be fine; you can get
these at many hobby stores that sell RC vehicles. Just take the wire off
the dead battery and stick it on a good one and you should be in great shape.

> Given your information, it seems like other possibilities are:
>
> - Use 3 AAA batteries to power the TeleMetrum.
> - Use a separate Pyro battery as documented at
>   http://www.altusmetrum.org/Documents/SeparatePyroBattery/
> - (don't plug the TeleMetrum into USB)
>
> OR
>
> - Use 3 AAA batteries to power the TeleMetrum.
> - Use my StratoLogger to fire the e-matches.
> - (don't plug the TeleMetrum into USB)

Hrm. There's a LTC1682 5V charge-pump supply on TeleMetrum for the
accelerometer and that appears to be rated to only 4.4V. 3 AA batteries
will nominally run 4.5V; I'd assume at full charge they'd be slightly
higher, which doesn't bode well for the health of this power supply...

-keith


pgpLH3FPyCHUm.pgp
Description: PGP signature
___
altusmetrum mailing list
altusmetrum@lists.gag.com
http://lists.gag.com/mailman/listinfo/altusmetrum

Re: [altusmetrum] Bulging LiPo battery

[Schmidt, Bryan]

Potential hack solution...  I have several times taken apart old laptop
batteries to repurpose the individual cells inside.  Quite old ones will
have cylindrical Li-Ion cells, 4.1V charge cutoff.  Newer will have several
Li-Poly cells.  In almost all cases, the protection circuitry is
centralized on a piece of PCB.  So (carefully!) cut the leads and you can
get at individual unprotected cells.  While these are bulky, at old age
they still have quite a lot of capacity and into a short can still put out
pretty amazing current.

Personally I'd go to the RC store and find something that has a high
current rating, such as for small RC helicopters, and just pay careful
attention to polarity as already suggested.  Since you are using ematches,
you probably don't need much current to set them off, and they are fairly
likely to be open-circuit after they are fired, so *likely* you never draw
more than the protection circuit is rated for anyway.  However, lots of
variables, and easy to armchair advise from here...

Good luck in any case.
-Bryan




On Tue, Sep 10, 2013 at 5:31 PM, Plugger Lockett
wrote:

> I'm pretty sure I packed a 600mAh spare if you think that will suit your
> needs. I'm Andrew Hamilton and will be in the Australian camp. See you on
> the playa!
> On 11/09/2013 8:40 AM, "Sam Fineberg"  wrote:
>
>>  Peter,
>> You might ask Mike @ BAR.  He had some Telemetrium gear the last time I
>> looked.  He might be able to pull a battery out of a bundle kit if you
>> asked nicely.
>>
>> Sam
>>
>> On 9/10/2013 3:23 PM, Keith Packard wrote:
>>
>> Peter Hackett  
>>  writes:
>>
>>
>>  I'm off to Black Rock on Thursday. Not sure I'll be able to replace it by
>> then.
>> (I'm assuming it would be hard to find the right battery locally)
>>
>>  Yeah, we use the same connector as some helicopter batteries, but the
>> polarity is reversed, which would destroy both battery and board if you
>> plug them together.
>>
>> Bdale has a pile of current stock, but he's in California until tomorrow
>> evening. I don't have any of the larger size left at this point or I'd
>> offer to ship one from here.
>>
>> We get them from SparkFun though, and they do offer overnight shipping:
>>
>> https://www.sparkfun.com/products/341
>>
>> However, if you want to use them to fire charges, you'll need to remove
>> the current limiter board. If left in place, the battery will shut down
>> as soon as you try to fire a charge, leaving the board dead in the
>> air. Older SparkFun batteries had a different protection circuit which
>> worked fine with TeleMetrum, newer SparkFun batteries nearly always fail.
>>
>> It's a pretty simple soldering job, if you're up for the adventure.
>>
>> http://www.altusmetrum.org/Documents/FixBattery/
>>
>>  Anyone want to chime in on whether AAA's will be big enough?
>>
>>   Also,  I guess I should be concerned about battery internal resistance.
>> Will 3 standard alkaline
>> batteries in series be able to provide enough current to light the
>> e-matches?
>>
>>  Not recommended for a couple of reasons:
>>
>>  *) TeleMetrum will try to charge them when plugged in over USB. There's
>> no way to disable the charger, and the board cannot run without a
>> battery in place.
>>
>>  *) AAA batteries have a higher internal resistance than lithium
>> polymer batteries, which means if you try to fire an e-match, the
>> voltage seen by the board will drop low enough to reset the board.
>>
>>
>>  RE over-charge:
>>
>> Can that happen using the TeleMetrum to do the charging?
>>
>>  The charge controller on TeleMetrum shouldn't be able to overcharge an
>> undamaged battery. I've left them plugged in for weeks at a time without
>> problems.
>>
>> -keith
>>
>>
>>
>> ___
>> altusmetrum mailing 
>> listaltusmet...@lists.gag.comhttp://lists.gag.com/mailman/listinfo/altusmetrum
>>
>>
>>
>> ___
>> altusmetrum mailing list
>> altusmetrum@lists.gag.com
>> http://lists.gag.com/mailman/listinfo/altusmetrum
>>
>>
> ___
> altusmetrum mailing list
> altusmetrum@lists.gag.com
> http://lists.gag.com/mailman/listinfo/altusmetrum
>
>
___
altusmetrum mailing list
altusmetrum@lists.gag.com
http://lists.gag.com/mailman/listinfo/altusmetrum

Re: [altusmetrum] Bulging LiPo battery

[Sam Fineberg]

Peter,
You might ask Mike @ BAR.  He had some Telemetrium gear the last time I 
looked.  He might be able to pull a battery out of a bundle kit if you 
asked nicely.


Sam

On 9/10/2013 3:23 PM, Keith Packard wrote:

Peter Hackett  writes:


I'm off to Black Rock on Thursday. Not sure I'll be able to replace it by
then.
(I'm assuming it would be hard to find the right battery locally)

Yeah, we use the same connector as some helicopter batteries, but the
polarity is reversed, which would destroy both battery and board if you
plug them together.

Bdale has a pile of current stock, but he's in California until tomorrow
evening. I don't have any of the larger size left at this point or I'd
offer to ship one from here.

We get them from SparkFun though, and they do offer overnight shipping:

 https://www.sparkfun.com/products/341

However, if you want to use them to fire charges, you'll need to remove
the current limiter board. If left in place, the battery will shut down
as soon as you try to fire a charge, leaving the board dead in the
air. Older SparkFun batteries had a different protection circuit which
worked fine with TeleMetrum, newer SparkFun batteries nearly always fail.

It's a pretty simple soldering job, if you're up for the adventure.

 http://www.altusmetrum.org/Documents/FixBattery/


Anyone want to chime in on whether AAA's will be big enough?
Also,  I guess I should be concerned about battery internal resistance.
Will 3 standard alkaline
batteries in series be able to provide enough current to light the
e-matches?

Not recommended for a couple of reasons:

  *) TeleMetrum will try to charge them when plugged in over USB. There's
 no way to disable the charger, and the board cannot run without a
 battery in place.

  *) AAA batteries have a higher internal resistance than lithium
 polymer batteries, which means if you try to fire an e-match, the
 voltage seen by the board will drop low enough to reset the board.


RE over-charge:

Can that happen using the TeleMetrum to do the charging?

The charge controller on TeleMetrum shouldn't be able to overcharge an
undamaged battery. I've left them plugged in for weeks at a time without
problems.

-keith


___
altusmetrum mailing list
altusmetrum@lists.gag.com
http://lists.gag.com/mailman/listinfo/altusmetrum


___
altusmetrum mailing list
altusmetrum@lists.gag.com
http://lists.gag.com/mailman/listinfo/altusmetrum

Re: [altusmetrum] Bulging LiPo battery

[Plugger Lockett]

I'm pretty sure I packed a 600mAh spare if you think that will suit your
needs. I'm Andrew Hamilton and will be in the Australian camp. See you on
the playa!
On 11/09/2013 8:40 AM, "Sam Fineberg"  wrote:

>  Peter,
> You might ask Mike @ BAR.  He had some Telemetrium gear the last time I
> looked.  He might be able to pull a battery out of a bundle kit if you
> asked nicely.
>
> Sam
>
> On 9/10/2013 3:23 PM, Keith Packard wrote:
>
> Peter Hackett  
>  writes:
>
>
>  I'm off to Black Rock on Thursday. Not sure I'll be able to replace it by
> then.
> (I'm assuming it would be hard to find the right battery locally)
>
>
> Yeah, we use the same connector as some helicopter batteries, but the
> polarity is reversed, which would destroy both battery and board if you
> plug them together.
>
> Bdale has a pile of current stock, but he's in California until tomorrow
> evening. I don't have any of the larger size left at this point or I'd
> offer to ship one from here.
>
> We get them from SparkFun though, and they do offer overnight shipping:
>
> https://www.sparkfun.com/products/341
>
> However, if you want to use them to fire charges, you'll need to remove
> the current limiter board. If left in place, the battery will shut down
> as soon as you try to fire a charge, leaving the board dead in the
> air. Older SparkFun batteries had a different protection circuit which
> worked fine with TeleMetrum, newer SparkFun batteries nearly always fail.
>
> It's a pretty simple soldering job, if you're up for the adventure.
>
> http://www.altusmetrum.org/Documents/FixBattery/
>
>  Anyone want to chime in on whether AAA's will be big enough?
>
>
> Also,  I guess I should be concerned about battery internal resistance.
> Will 3 standard alkaline
> batteries in series be able to provide enough current to light the
> e-matches?
>
>
> Not recommended for a couple of reasons:
>
>  *) TeleMetrum will try to charge them when plugged in over USB. There's
> no way to disable the charger, and the board cannot run without a
> battery in place.
>
>  *) AAA batteries have a higher internal resistance than lithium
> polymer batteries, which means if you try to fire an e-match, the
> voltage seen by the board will drop low enough to reset the board.
>
>
>  RE over-charge:
>
> Can that happen using the TeleMetrum to do the charging?
>
>
> The charge controller on TeleMetrum shouldn't be able to overcharge an
> undamaged battery. I've left them plugged in for weeks at a time without
> problems.
>
> -keith
>
>
>
> ___
> altusmetrum mailing 
> listaltusmet...@lists.gag.comhttp://lists.gag.com/mailman/listinfo/altusmetrum
>
>
>
> ___
> altusmetrum mailing list
> altusmetrum@lists.gag.com
> http://lists.gag.com/mailman/listinfo/altusmetrum
>
>
___
altusmetrum mailing list
altusmetrum@lists.gag.com
http://lists.gag.com/mailman/listinfo/altusmetrum

Re: [altusmetrum] Bulging LiPo battery

[Peter Hackett]

RE Bay Area Rocketry

I've sent e-mail to Mike but I think he may already be at Black Rock for
ARLISS.

RE pull a battery from a bundle:

Yes. Mike is an *AWESOME* vendor! I wouldn't be surprised if he was willing
to do that.

I think give that it's late in the day (and even later at SparkFun
(Colorado)) and my "Scottish" blood
bristles at paying $25 to get an $9 battery, I'll go to Black Rock and
"expect a miracle"

If my backup "other possibilities" are deemed "not too wacky" by Keith, I
might prepare for one of
those in case a miracle doesn't happen :-)

On Tue, Sep 10, 2013 at 3:39 PM, Sam Fineberg  wrote:

>  Peter,
> You might ask Mike @ BAR.  He had some Telemetrium gear the last time I
> looked.  He might be able to pull a battery out of a bundle kit if you
> asked nicely.
>
> Sam
>
>
> On 9/10/2013 3:23 PM, Keith Packard wrote:
>
> Peter Hackett  
>  writes:
>
>
>  I'm off to Black Rock on Thursday. Not sure I'll be able to replace it by
> then.
> (I'm assuming it would be hard to find the right battery locally)
>
>  Yeah, we use the same connector as some helicopter batteries, but the
> polarity is reversed, which would destroy both battery and board if you
> plug them together.
>
> Bdale has a pile of current stock, but he's in California until tomorrow
> evening. I don't have any of the larger size left at this point or I'd
> offer to ship one from here.
>
> We get them from SparkFun though, and they do offer overnight shipping:
>
> https://www.sparkfun.com/products/341
>
> However, if you want to use them to fire charges, you'll need to remove
> the current limiter board. If left in place, the battery will shut down
> as soon as you try to fire a charge, leaving the board dead in the
> air. Older SparkFun batteries had a different protection circuit which
> worked fine with TeleMetrum, newer SparkFun batteries nearly always fail.
>
> It's a pretty simple soldering job, if you're up for the adventure.
>
> http://www.altusmetrum.org/Documents/FixBattery/
>
>  Anyone want to chime in on whether AAA's will be big enough?
>
>   Also,  I guess I should be concerned about battery internal resistance.
> Will 3 standard alkaline
> batteries in series be able to provide enough current to light the
> e-matches?
>
>  Not recommended for a couple of reasons:
>
>  *) TeleMetrum will try to charge them when plugged in over USB. There's
> no way to disable the charger, and the board cannot run without a
> battery in place.
>
>  *) AAA batteries have a higher internal resistance than lithium
> polymer batteries, which means if you try to fire an e-match, the
> voltage seen by the board will drop low enough to reset the board.
>
>
>  RE over-charge:
>
> Can that happen using the TeleMetrum to do the charging?
>
>  The charge controller on TeleMetrum shouldn't be able to overcharge an
> undamaged battery. I've left them plugged in for weeks at a time without
> problems.
>
> -keith
>
>
>
> ___
> altusmetrum mailing 
> listaltusmet...@lists.gag.comhttp://lists.gag.com/mailman/listinfo/altusmetrum
>
>
>
___
altusmetrum mailing list
altusmetrum@lists.gag.com
http://lists.gag.com/mailman/listinfo/altusmetrum

Re: [altusmetrum] Bulging LiPo battery

[Peter Hackett]

sigh.

I charged the battery by plugging it in to a USB charger.
I *did* leave it for (I think) two days. But it sounds like this should be
OK.

I've always had "trouble" with charging (at the very least "confusion")
I've had situations where I know it needs charging (software says the
voltage is
low) but the charge light doesn't go on (usually.)
So I now just "plug it in (for a long time) and check it".

So it looks like the only (quick, complete) solution is a new battery that
I modify
by removing the protection circuit.

Given your information, it seems like other possibilities are:

- Use 3 AAA batteries to power the TeleMetrum.
- Use a separate Pyro battery as documented at
  http://www.altusmetrum.org/Documents/SeparatePyroBattery/
- (don't plug the TeleMetrum into USB)

OR

- Use 3 AAA batteries to power the TeleMetrum.
- Use my StratoLogger to fire the e-matches.
- (don't plug the TeleMetrum into USB)


On Tue, Sep 10, 2013 at 3:23 PM, Keith Packard  wrote:

> Peter Hackett  writes:
>
> > I'm off to Black Rock on Thursday. Not sure I'll be able to replace it by
> > then.
> > (I'm assuming it would be hard to find the right battery locally)
>
> Yeah, we use the same connector as some helicopter batteries, but the
> polarity is reversed, which would destroy both battery and board if you
> plug them together.
>
> Bdale has a pile of current stock, but he's in California until tomorrow
> evening. I don't have any of the larger size left at this point or I'd
> offer to ship one from here.
>
> We get them from SparkFun though, and they do offer overnight shipping:
>
> https://www.sparkfun.com/products/341
>
> However, if you want to use them to fire charges, you'll need to remove
> the current limiter board. If left in place, the battery will shut down
> as soon as you try to fire a charge, leaving the board dead in the
> air. Older SparkFun batteries had a different protection circuit which
> worked fine with TeleMetrum, newer SparkFun batteries nearly always fail.
>
> It's a pretty simple soldering job, if you're up for the adventure.
>
> http://www.altusmetrum.org/Documents/FixBattery/
>
> > Anyone want to chime in on whether AAA's will be big enough?
>
> >
> > Also,  I guess I should be concerned about battery internal resistance.
> > Will 3 standard alkaline
> > batteries in series be able to provide enough current to light the
> > e-matches?
>
> Not recommended for a couple of reasons:
>
>  *) TeleMetrum will try to charge them when plugged in over USB. There's
> no way to disable the charger, and the board cannot run without a
> battery in place.
>
>  *) AAA batteries have a higher internal resistance than lithium
> polymer batteries, which means if you try to fire an e-match, the
> voltage seen by the board will drop low enough to reset the board.
>
> > RE over-charge:
> >
> > Can that happen using the TeleMetrum to do the charging?
>
> The charge controller on TeleMetrum shouldn't be able to overcharge an
> undamaged battery. I've left them plugged in for weeks at a time without
> problems.
>
> -keith
>
___
altusmetrum mailing list
altusmetrum@lists.gag.com
http://lists.gag.com/mailman/listinfo/altusmetrum

Re: [altusmetrum] Bulging LiPo battery

[Mike Beattie]

On Tue, Sep 10, 2013 at 01:34:03PM -0700, Sam Fineberg wrote:
> You might try a place that sells rc planes.  DJ Hobby, Hobbytown,
> call ahead.

Take care doing so - some suppliers of suitable LiPo batteries have a
different polarity on the JST connector.

Keith may possibly be able to get you a new battery, I'm sure he'll chime in
when he can.

Mike.
-- 
Mike Beattie 
___
altusmetrum mailing list
altusmetrum@lists.gag.com
http://lists.gag.com/mailman/listinfo/altusmetrum

Re: [altusmetrum] Bulging LiPo battery

[Keith Packard]

Peter Hackett  writes:

> I'm off to Black Rock on Thursday. Not sure I'll be able to replace it by
> then.
> (I'm assuming it would be hard to find the right battery locally)

Yeah, we use the same connector as some helicopter batteries, but the
polarity is reversed, which would destroy both battery and board if you
plug them together.

Bdale has a pile of current stock, but he's in California until tomorrow
evening. I don't have any of the larger size left at this point or I'd
offer to ship one from here.

We get them from SparkFun though, and they do offer overnight shipping:

https://www.sparkfun.com/products/341

However, if you want to use them to fire charges, you'll need to remove
the current limiter board. If left in place, the battery will shut down
as soon as you try to fire a charge, leaving the board dead in the
air. Older SparkFun batteries had a different protection circuit which
worked fine with TeleMetrum, newer SparkFun batteries nearly always fail.

It's a pretty simple soldering job, if you're up for the adventure.

http://www.altusmetrum.org/Documents/FixBattery/

> Anyone want to chime in on whether AAA's will be big enough?

>
> Also,  I guess I should be concerned about battery internal resistance.
> Will 3 standard alkaline
> batteries in series be able to provide enough current to light the
> e-matches?

Not recommended for a couple of reasons:

 *) TeleMetrum will try to charge them when plugged in over USB. There's
no way to disable the charger, and the board cannot run without a
battery in place.

 *) AAA batteries have a higher internal resistance than lithium
polymer batteries, which means if you try to fire an e-match, the
voltage seen by the board will drop low enough to reset the board.

> RE over-charge:
>
> Can that happen using the TeleMetrum to do the charging?

The charge controller on TeleMetrum shouldn't be able to overcharge an
undamaged battery. I've left them plugged in for weeks at a time without
problems.

-keith


pgpztGimpdGOc.pgp
Description: PGP signature
___
altusmetrum mailing list
altusmetrum@lists.gag.com
http://lists.gag.com/mailman/listinfo/altusmetrum

Re: [altusmetrum] Bulging LiPo battery

[Keith Packard]

Peter Hackett  writes:

> I just charged my TeleMetrum battery and I noticed that the
> battery (silver wrapper) is bulging.

Uh-oh. 

> How bad is this?

It nearly exploded. That's "bad". You're lucky you didn't get a fire...

> It seems to be "working" and the TeleMetrum can talk to my
> laptop. The software reports the battery voltage at 4.46 volts.

Definitely over charged. Did you do anything unusual to the battery? The
lipo charge controller on the TeleMetrum shouldn't be able to overcharge a
battery...

> Is this a "normal" voltage for after a charge?

Definitely not. You should never see it over 4.2V, and even that
shouldn't last for long.

(will answer questions from other email as well)

-keith


pgpM35pLjh9SD.pgp
Description: PGP signature
___
altusmetrum mailing list
altusmetrum@lists.gag.com
http://lists.gag.com/mailman/listinfo/altusmetrum

Re: [altusmetrum] Bulging LiPo battery

[Sam Fineberg]

You might try a place that sells rc planes.  DJ Hobby, Hobbytown, call 
ahead.


Sam


On 9/10/2013 1:23 PM, Peter Hackett wrote:
I'm off to Black Rock on Thursday. Not sure I'll be able to replace it 
by then.

(I'm assuming it would be hard to find the right battery locally)

My first thought it to go to Radio Shack and get a 3 x AA or 3 x AAA 
battery
holder ( ~ 4.5V) clip the connect off the LiPo (leaving ~ 1 inch or so 
of wire) and solder the

(LiPo) connecter leads to the AA/AAA battery holder leads.

Anyone want to chime in on whether AAA's will be big enough?

Also,  I guess I should be concerned about battery internal 
resistance. Will 3 standard alkaline
batteries in series be able to provide enough current to light the 
e-matches?


RE over-charge:

Can that happen using the TeleMetrum to do the charging?



On Tue, Sep 10, 2013 at 1:07 PM, Joe Zawodny > wrote:


A fully charged LiPo cell is 4.2V.  It would seem yours is
overcharged.  It may still work for a while, but the capacity and
lifetime have been compromised.  You should probably replace it.

Joe

Sent from my iPad

On Sep 10, 2013, at 3:46 PM, Peter Hackett
mailto:peter.hack...@cal.berkeley.edu>> wrote:

> I just charged my TeleMetrum battery and I noticed that the
> battery (silver wrapper) is bulging.
>
> How bad is this?
>
> It seems to be "working" and the TeleMetrum can talk to my
> laptop. The software reports the battery voltage at 4.46 volts.
>
> Is this a "normal" voltage for after a charge?
> ___
> altusmetrum mailing list
> altusmetrum@lists.gag.com 
> http://lists.gag.com/mailman/listinfo/altusmetrum
___
altusmetrum mailing list
altusmetrum@lists.gag.com 
http://lists.gag.com/mailman/listinfo/altusmetrum




___
altusmetrum mailing list
altusmetrum@lists.gag.com
http://lists.gag.com/mailman/listinfo/altusmetrum


___
altusmetrum mailing list
altusmetrum@lists.gag.com
http://lists.gag.com/mailman/listinfo/altusmetrum

Re: [altusmetrum] Bulging LiPo battery

[Peter Hackett]

I'm off to Black Rock on Thursday. Not sure I'll be able to replace it by
then.
(I'm assuming it would be hard to find the right battery locally)

My first thought it to go to Radio Shack and get a 3 x AA or 3 x AAA battery
holder ( ~ 4.5V) clip the connect off the LiPo (leaving ~ 1 inch or so of
wire) and solder the
(LiPo) connecter leads to the AA/AAA battery holder leads.

Anyone want to chime in on whether AAA's will be big enough?

Also,  I guess I should be concerned about battery internal resistance.
Will 3 standard alkaline
batteries in series be able to provide enough current to light the
e-matches?

RE over-charge:

Can that happen using the TeleMetrum to do the charging?



On Tue, Sep 10, 2013 at 1:07 PM, Joe Zawodny  wrote:

> A fully charged LiPo cell is 4.2V.  It would seem yours is overcharged.
>  It may still work for a while, but the capacity and lifetime have been
> compromised.  You should probably replace it.
>
> Joe
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
> On Sep 10, 2013, at 3:46 PM, Peter Hackett 
> wrote:
>
> > I just charged my TeleMetrum battery and I noticed that the
> > battery (silver wrapper) is bulging.
> >
> > How bad is this?
> >
> > It seems to be "working" and the TeleMetrum can talk to my
> > laptop. The software reports the battery voltage at 4.46 volts.
> >
> > Is this a "normal" voltage for after a charge?
> > ___
> > altusmetrum mailing list
> > altusmetrum@lists.gag.com
> > http://lists.gag.com/mailman/listinfo/altusmetrum
> ___
> altusmetrum mailing list
> altusmetrum@lists.gag.com
> http://lists.gag.com/mailman/listinfo/altusmetrum
>
___
altusmetrum mailing list
altusmetrum@lists.gag.com
http://lists.gag.com/mailman/listinfo/altusmetrum

Re: [altusmetrum] Bulging LiPo battery

[Joe Zawodny]

A fully charged LiPo cell is 4.2V.  It would seem yours is overcharged.  It may 
still work for a while, but the capacity and lifetime have been compromised.  
You should probably replace it.

Joe

Sent from my iPad

On Sep 10, 2013, at 3:46 PM, Peter Hackett  
wrote:

> I just charged my TeleMetrum battery and I noticed that the
> battery (silver wrapper) is bulging. 
> 
> How bad is this?
> 
> It seems to be "working" and the TeleMetrum can talk to my
> laptop. The software reports the battery voltage at 4.46 volts.
> 
> Is this a "normal" voltage for after a charge?
> ___
> altusmetrum mailing list
> altusmetrum@lists.gag.com
> http://lists.gag.com/mailman/listinfo/altusmetrum
___
altusmetrum mailing list
altusmetrum@lists.gag.com
http://lists.gag.com/mailman/listinfo/altusmetrum