Re: [android-developers] Re: LVL - A Massive Concern
I think it needs to be made more obvious to the user. Its not dangerous, correct, but a user may well be upset if they assumed they were buying the app and could use it on any Android device. And like I said before, existing users (those who paid before LVL was introduced) would have to stop updating to avoid the LVL restriction - a permission they could easily not see during update. OTOH, if its too obvious then it may create a feeling of distrust between user and dev, so I guess there's no good solution. On 4 August 2010 04:32, Trevor Johns tjo...@google.com wrote: I just checked using my Evo running Froyo, and the license check is indeed mentioned. However, it's not considered dangerous, so you need to click on Show All to see it. -- Trevor Johns Google Devloper Programs, Android http://developer.android.com On Mon, Aug 2, 2010 at 12:49 PM, Mark Carter mjc1...@googlemail.comwrote: When I install an app (with that permission) I don't see the CHECK_LICENSE permission mentioned. The other permissions are mentioned but not that one. This is on N1 Froyo. Am I missing something!? On 2 August 2010 21:40, Trevor Johns tjo...@google.com wrote: On Mon, Aug 2, 2010 at 12:33 PM, Mark Carter mjc1...@googlemail.comwrote: When the user makes a purchase, he usually does not know whether the app is LVL-secured or not. Certainly, consider all purchases made before last week - the users did not know anything about LVL. If a developer uses the LVL, they must request the CHECK_LICENSE permission. The user will be informed of this, just like any other permission. So yes, it's possible to tell at purchase time that an application is using the LVL. -- Trevor Johns Google Developer Programs, Android http://developer.android.com -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Android Developers group. To post to this group, send email to android-developers@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to android-developers+unsubscr...@googlegroups.comandroid-developers%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/android-developers?hl=en -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Android Developers group. To post to this group, send email to android-developers@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to android-developers+unsubscr...@googlegroups.comandroid-developers%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/android-developers?hl=en -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Android Developers group. To post to this group, send email to android-developers@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to android-developers+unsubscr...@googlegroups.comandroid-developers%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/android-developers?hl=en -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Android Developers group. To post to this group, send email to android-developers@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to android-developers+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/android-developers?hl=en
Re: [android-developers] Re: LVL - A Massive Concern
I think this is being blown pretty far out of proportion. We've had application DRM in Android since 1.0, with forward locking. The new license server is far far better than forward locking, in almost every way. Apps that used forward locking were not available to the user to be copied. True, certain users knew how to root their phone to bypass the protection and use the app in a way the developer didn't intend. That restriction is not new. It is just harder for users to use license checked apps in ways the developer doesn't want. If you want your users to be able to use your apps on devices without market... well, don't use the license service. Nothing requires you to use it. Just like forward locking. On Tue, Aug 3, 2010 at 11:27 PM, Mark Carter mjc1...@googlemail.com wrote: I think it needs to be made more obvious to the user. Its not dangerous, correct, but a user may well be upset if they assumed they were buying the app and could use it on any Android device. And like I said before, existing users (those who paid before LVL was introduced) would have to stop updating to avoid the LVL restriction - a permission they could easily not see during update. OTOH, if its too obvious then it may create a feeling of distrust between user and dev, so I guess there's no good solution. On 4 August 2010 04:32, Trevor Johns tjo...@google.com wrote: I just checked using my Evo running Froyo, and the license check is indeed mentioned. However, it's not considered dangerous, so you need to click on Show All to see it. -- Trevor Johns Google Devloper Programs, Android http://developer.android.com On Mon, Aug 2, 2010 at 12:49 PM, Mark Carter mjc1...@googlemail.comwrote: When I install an app (with that permission) I don't see the CHECK_LICENSE permission mentioned. The other permissions are mentioned but not that one. This is on N1 Froyo. Am I missing something!? On 2 August 2010 21:40, Trevor Johns tjo...@google.com wrote: On Mon, Aug 2, 2010 at 12:33 PM, Mark Carter mjc1...@googlemail.comwrote: When the user makes a purchase, he usually does not know whether the app is LVL-secured or not. Certainly, consider all purchases made before last week - the users did not know anything about LVL. If a developer uses the LVL, they must request the CHECK_LICENSE permission. The user will be informed of this, just like any other permission. So yes, it's possible to tell at purchase time that an application is using the LVL. -- Trevor Johns Google Developer Programs, Android http://developer.android.com -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Android Developers group. To post to this group, send email to android-developers@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to android-developers+unsubscr...@googlegroups.comandroid-developers%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/android-developers?hl=en -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Android Developers group. To post to this group, send email to android-developers@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to android-developers+unsubscr...@googlegroups.comandroid-developers%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/android-developers?hl=en -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Android Developers group. To post to this group, send email to android-developers@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to android-developers+unsubscr...@googlegroups.comandroid-developers%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/android-developers?hl=en -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Android Developers group. To post to this group, send email to android-developers@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to android-developers+unsubscr...@googlegroups.comandroid-developers%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/android-developers?hl=en -- Dianne Hackborn Android framework engineer hack...@android.com Note: please don't send private questions to me, as I don't have time to provide private support, and so won't reply to such e-mails. All such questions should be posted on public forums, where I and others can see and answer them. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Android Developers group. To post to this group, send email to android-developers@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to android-developers+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/android-developers?hl=en
Re: [android-developers] Re: LVL - A Massive Concern
Agreed that this is far better than forward-locking. Also agreed, that if devs don't like it then they don't have to use it. But then its not much use to devs, is it? And if users don't like apps with LVL, then they don't have to use those apps. But then that's not much use to users either, if the best paid apps use LVL. Not great for devs either - less sales. And if pirates don't like apps with LVL, then they can just copy apps without LVL - but that's no good to the devs who were told not to use LVL if they didn't like it! If devs don't like LVL then they can either discuss it or be told you don't have to use it - which is more constructive? On 4 August 2010 10:29, Dianne Hackborn hack...@android.com wrote: I think this is being blown pretty far out of proportion. We've had application DRM in Android since 1.0, with forward locking. The new license server is far far better than forward locking, in almost every way. Apps that used forward locking were not available to the user to be copied. True, certain users knew how to root their phone to bypass the protection and use the app in a way the developer didn't intend. That restriction is not new. It is just harder for users to use license checked apps in ways the developer doesn't want. If you want your users to be able to use your apps on devices without market... well, don't use the license service. Nothing requires you to use it. Just like forward locking. On Tue, Aug 3, 2010 at 11:27 PM, Mark Carter mjc1...@googlemail.comwrote: I think it needs to be made more obvious to the user. Its not dangerous, correct, but a user may well be upset if they assumed they were buying the app and could use it on any Android device. And like I said before, existing users (those who paid before LVL was introduced) would have to stop updating to avoid the LVL restriction - a permission they could easily not see during update. OTOH, if its too obvious then it may create a feeling of distrust between user and dev, so I guess there's no good solution. On 4 August 2010 04:32, Trevor Johns tjo...@google.com wrote: I just checked using my Evo running Froyo, and the license check is indeed mentioned. However, it's not considered dangerous, so you need to click on Show All to see it. -- Trevor Johns Google Devloper Programs, Android http://developer.android.com On Mon, Aug 2, 2010 at 12:49 PM, Mark Carter mjc1...@googlemail.comwrote: When I install an app (with that permission) I don't see the CHECK_LICENSE permission mentioned. The other permissions are mentioned but not that one. This is on N1 Froyo. Am I missing something!? On 2 August 2010 21:40, Trevor Johns tjo...@google.com wrote: On Mon, Aug 2, 2010 at 12:33 PM, Mark Carter mjc1...@googlemail.comwrote: When the user makes a purchase, he usually does not know whether the app is LVL-secured or not. Certainly, consider all purchases made before last week - the users did not know anything about LVL. If a developer uses the LVL, they must request the CHECK_LICENSE permission. The user will be informed of this, just like any other permission. So yes, it's possible to tell at purchase time that an application is using the LVL. -- Trevor Johns Google Developer Programs, Android http://developer.android.com -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Android Developers group. To post to this group, send email to android-developers@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to android-developers+unsubscr...@googlegroups.comandroid-developers%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/android-developers?hl=en -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Android Developers group. To post to this group, send email to android-developers@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to android-developers+unsubscr...@googlegroups.comandroid-developers%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/android-developers?hl=en -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Android Developers group. To post to this group, send email to android-developers@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to android-developers+unsubscr...@googlegroups.comandroid-developers%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/android-developers?hl=en -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Android Developers group. To post to this group, send email to android-developers@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to android-developers+unsubscr...@googlegroups.comandroid-developers%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at
Re: [android-developers] Re: LVL - A Massive Concern
I just checked using my Evo running Froyo, and the license check is indeed mentioned. However, it's not considered dangerous, so you need to click on Show All to see it. -- Trevor Johns Google Devloper Programs, Android http://developer.android.com On Mon, Aug 2, 2010 at 12:49 PM, Mark Carter mjc1...@googlemail.com wrote: When I install an app (with that permission) I don't see the CHECK_LICENSE permission mentioned. The other permissions are mentioned but not that one. This is on N1 Froyo. Am I missing something!? On 2 August 2010 21:40, Trevor Johns tjo...@google.com wrote: On Mon, Aug 2, 2010 at 12:33 PM, Mark Carter mjc1...@googlemail.comwrote: When the user makes a purchase, he usually does not know whether the app is LVL-secured or not. Certainly, consider all purchases made before last week - the users did not know anything about LVL. If a developer uses the LVL, they must request the CHECK_LICENSE permission. The user will be informed of this, just like any other permission. So yes, it's possible to tell at purchase time that an application is using the LVL. -- Trevor Johns Google Developer Programs, Android http://developer.android.com -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Android Developers group. To post to this group, send email to android-developers@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to android-developers+unsubscr...@googlegroups.comandroid-developers%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/android-developers?hl=en -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Android Developers group. To post to this group, send email to android-developers@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to android-developers+unsubscr...@googlegroups.comandroid-developers%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/android-developers?hl=en -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Android Developers group. To post to this group, send email to android-developers@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to android-developers+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/android-developers?hl=en
[android-developers] Re: LVL - A Massive Concern
You will find what you are missing is mentioned under NETWORK ACCESS. On Aug 3, 5:49 am, Mark Carter mjc1...@googlemail.com wrote: When I install an app (with that permission) I don't see the CHECK_LICENSE permission mentioned. The other permissions are mentioned but not that one. This is on N1 Froyo. Am I missing something!? -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Android Developers group. To post to this group, send email to android-developers@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to android-developers+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/android-developers?hl=en
Re: [android-developers] Re: LVL - A Massive Concern
Ah yes, you are right. When installing the APK manually (using the Package Manager - or whatever its called) you have to touch Show all and then you can see it as a sub-description of Network communication. Is it as difficult to see when installing from the Market app? Thanks for the heads-up. On 3 August 2010 08:42, metal mikey coref...@gmail.com wrote: You will find what you are missing is mentioned under NETWORK ACCESS. On Aug 3, 5:49 am, Mark Carter mjc1...@googlemail.com wrote: When I install an app (with that permission) I don't see the CHECK_LICENSE permission mentioned. The other permissions are mentioned but not that one. This is on N1 Froyo. Am I missing something!? -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Android Developers group. To post to this group, send email to android-developers@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to android-developers+unsubscr...@googlegroups.comandroid-developers%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/android-developers?hl=en -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Android Developers group. To post to this group, send email to android-developers@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to android-developers+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/android-developers?hl=en
[android-developers] Re: LVL - A Massive Concern
I would imagine most paid apps do not use copy protection because of all the problems it has caused. Its a valid point, when a user buys an app, he assumes he can use it on any future Android device. The truth is, with LVL, if the device does not have the Market app, then he won't be able to use it. *unless* the developer writes the Policy in such a way as to say: if there is no Market app, then allow() the user. The problem with this is it opens up mass piracy amongst millions of Chinese phones that don't have the Market app. On Aug 2, 6:32 am, Jeffrey jeffisagen...@gmail.com wrote: The only thing I can say is that it is going to be used primarily on paid apps. Paid apps that you would have had to buy through the market. Meaning that using them on non-market devices wouldn't be possible anyway, since the apps that will be using it are probably using the current form of copy protection which prevents you from using it on non-market devices seeing as you can't copy them. This is a completely different situation from music DRM. When you play DRM music you don't have it checking a server to see if you purchased it, they usually just make it retardedly restrictive to copy/move to a new device. On Aug 1, 9:02 pm, ocdtrekkie jtn...@gmail.com wrote: Someone did point out to me that LVL should not affect people on non- Market devices, which helps a bit, if its true (I haven't confirmed it), so that's a bit better, but I'm still very concerned about the damage some of the messes licensing concerns may cause, when right now, half the time downloading paid apps doesn't work right now as is. Additional mess, sigh. On Aug 1, 8:53 pm, ocdtrekkie jtn...@gmail.com wrote: Is nobody else worried about the rampant stupidity of DRM now being applied to Android? The music industry spend many years and billions of dollars before realizing DRM did not stop pirates, and merely harassed and annoyed paying customers. I for one, will not purchase any paid app that utilizes LVL protection, because I want the ability to use my apps on non-Market devices for example. It seems that every developer is gung ho about this, which is why I want to ask you guys, the developers, more about your opinions on this. DRM has been proven time and time again to do nothing to stop piracy, I have a membership in a tracker I use for replacing some of my damaged retail discs, and I see cracked copies of games coming through the same day of release, for major PC titles with massive DRM suites. The only thing it does, is inconvenience legitimate users who want to utilize their apps the way they want to. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Android Developers group. To post to this group, send email to android-developers@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to android-developers+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/android-developers?hl=en
[android-developers] Re: LVL - A Massive Concern
Or the developer could simply exclude non-market Chinese phones. But I do think that if a user has a Market phone, he's relatively unlikely to subsequently purchase a non-market phone. It can happen -- due to moving to a different country, for example -- but it's unlikely to be a willing choice. And I suspect the markets with a mix of market and non-market phones are relatively small -- in most cases, he won't even have such a choice to make. I'll observe that while the experience with license servers is not without problems, I think license servers are a much less problematic approach than DRM. People who build license servers have generally tried to accommodate legitimate usages. They're not always used wisely -- node-locked licenses are a pain. But node-locked licensing is pretty much all the DRM purveyors have even attempted. And with software using license servers, it's generally possible to transfer to a new node, sometimes without even contacting a human at the vendor (either locally, or with an automated process at a vendor site). So I don't think it's very constructive to lump this in with DRM. It will have drawbacks, but they will be its own drawbacks, and it should be evaluated on its own merits. On Aug 1, 11:25 pm, Mark Carter mjc1...@googlemail.com wrote: I would imagine most paid apps do not use copy protection because of all the problems it has caused. Its a valid point, when a user buys an app, he assumes he can use it on any future Android device. The truth is, with LVL, if the device does not have the Market app, then he won't be able to use it. *unless* the developer writes the Policy in such a way as to say: if there is no Market app, then allow() the user. The problem with this is it opens up mass piracy amongst millions of Chinese phones that don't have the Market app. On Aug 2, 6:32 am, Jeffrey jeffisagen...@gmail.com wrote: The only thing I can say is that it is going to be used primarily on paid apps. Paid apps that you would have had to buy through the market. Meaning that using them on non-market devices wouldn't be possible anyway, since the apps that will be using it are probably using the current form of copy protection which prevents you from using it on non-market devices seeing as you can't copy them. This is a completely different situation from music DRM. When you play DRM music you don't have it checking a server to see if you purchased it, they usually just make it retardedly restrictive to copy/move to a new device. On Aug 1, 9:02 pm, ocdtrekkie jtn...@gmail.com wrote: Someone did point out to me that LVL should not affect people on non- Market devices, which helps a bit, if its true (I haven't confirmed it), so that's a bit better, but I'm still very concerned about the damage some of the messes licensing concerns may cause, when right now, half the time downloading paid apps doesn't work right now as is. Additional mess, sigh. On Aug 1, 8:53 pm, ocdtrekkie jtn...@gmail.com wrote: Is nobody else worried about the rampant stupidity of DRM now being applied to Android? The music industry spend many years and billions of dollars before realizing DRM did not stop pirates, and merely harassed and annoyed paying customers. I for one, will not purchase any paid app that utilizes LVL protection, because I want the ability to use my apps on non-Market devices for example. It seems that every developer is gung ho about this, which is why I want to ask you guys, the developers, more about your opinions on this. DRM has been proven time and time again to do nothing to stop piracy, I have a membership in a tracker I use for replacing some of my damaged retail discs, and I see cracked copies of games coming through the same day of release, for major PC titles with massive DRM suites. The only thing it does, is inconvenience legitimate users who want to utilize their apps the way they want to. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Android Developers group. To post to this group, send email to android-developers@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to android-developers+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/android-developers?hl=en
Re: [android-developers] Re: LVL - A Massive Concern
On 2 August 2010 19:36, Bob Kerns r...@acm.org wrote: But I do think that if a user has a Market phone, he's relatively unlikely to subsequently purchase a non-market phone. It can happen -- due to moving to a different country, for example -- but it's unlikely to be a willing choice. And I suspect the markets with a mix of market and non-market phones are relatively small -- in most cases, he won't even have such a choice to make. How about tablets such as the Archos 5? I would imagine most Archos 5 owners also have an Android smartphone. I know for a fact that some of my users run my paid app on their Archos device even though my paid app is only available via the Android Market. So, as soon as those users try to use an LVL-ified update, it won't work. Its only a matter of time before one such user leaves a one-star rating about DRM and that will severely affect sales :( -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Android Developers group. To post to this group, send email to android-developers@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to android-developers+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/android-developers?hl=en
[android-developers] Re: LVL - A Massive Concern
I see a huge problem with these sites that promote all paid apps for $1.99 and the other similar offers from pirates profiting off the hard work of developers. LVL, if nothing else, will cause a decrease in this form of piracy. It's demoralizing for a developer to spend months of effort creating an app and expect to get a reasonable return on their investment and then see a bunch of unscrupulous websites selling their wares. LVL may not be a perfect solution but it's a huge step in the right direction. -John Coryat -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Android Developers group. To post to this group, send email to android-developers@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to android-developers+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/android-developers?hl=en
[android-developers] Re: LVL - A Massive Concern
Good point, but my opinion is that this problem is self-limiting. I don't expect the Archos to be successful without the Market. Even if most users do have access to the market through their phones. On Aug 2, 10:56 am, Mark Carter mjc1...@googlemail.com wrote: On 2 August 2010 19:36, Bob Kerns r...@acm.org wrote: But I do think that if a user has a Market phone, he's relatively unlikely to subsequently purchase a non-market phone. It can happen -- due to moving to a different country, for example -- but it's unlikely to be a willing choice. And I suspect the markets with a mix of market and non-market phones are relatively small -- in most cases, he won't even have such a choice to make. How about tablets such as the Archos 5? I would imagine most Archos 5 owners also have an Android smartphone. I know for a fact that some of my users run my paid app on their Archos device even though my paid app is only available via the Android Market. So, as soon as those users try to use an LVL-ified update, it won't work. Its only a matter of time before one such user leaves a one-star rating about DRM and that will severely affect sales :( -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Android Developers group. To post to this group, send email to android-developers@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to android-developers+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/android-developers?hl=en
[android-developers] Re: LVL - A Massive Concern
If a user purchases an app legitimately and then buys a non-market device, why should they expect this device to run an app that has a license to run on one device only? Basically, those users have to stick with free apps or buy a device that's market approved for paid ones. I don't see this as a problem, more as an opportunity for manufacturers to set themselves apart from the lower echelon. -John Coryat -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Android Developers group. To post to this group, send email to android-developers@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to android-developers+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/android-developers?hl=en
Re: [android-developers] Re: LVL - A Massive Concern
Is it made clear to the users that it will not work on Android devices not having the Market app? On 2 August 2010 21:08, Maps.Huge.Info (Maps API Guru) cor...@gmail.comwrote: If a user purchases an app legitimately and then buys a non-market device, why should they expect this device to run an app that has a license to run on one device only? Basically, those users have to stick with free apps or buy a device that's market approved for paid ones. I don't see this as a problem, more as an opportunity for manufacturers to set themselves apart from the lower echelon. -John Coryat -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Android Developers group. To post to this group, send email to android-developers@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to android-developers+unsubscr...@googlegroups.comandroid-developers%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/android-developers?hl=en -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Android Developers group. To post to this group, send email to android-developers@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to android-developers+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/android-developers?hl=en
[android-developers] Re: LVL - A Massive Concern
The LVL secured app can't be copied, so that will certainly make it clear if a user tries to copy it. -John Coryat -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Android Developers group. To post to this group, send email to android-developers@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to android-developers+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/android-developers?hl=en
Re: [android-developers] Re: LVL - A Massive Concern
When the user makes a purchase, he usually does not know whether the app is LVL-secured or not. Certainly, consider all purchases made before last week - the users did not know anything about LVL. I was wondering more whether there is something in the Market app license agreement maybe saying something about using the app on non-Market app devices...? On 2 August 2010 21:26, Maps.Huge.Info (Maps API Guru) cor...@gmail.comwrote: The LVL secured app can't be copied, so that will certainly make it clear if a user tries to copy it. -John Coryat -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Android Developers group. To post to this group, send email to android-developers@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to android-developers+unsubscr...@googlegroups.comandroid-developers%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/android-developers?hl=en -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Android Developers group. To post to this group, send email to android-developers@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to android-developers+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/android-developers?hl=en
Re: [android-developers] Re: LVL - A Massive Concern
On Mon, Aug 2, 2010 at 12:33 PM, Mark Carter mjc1...@googlemail.com wrote: When the user makes a purchase, he usually does not know whether the app is LVL-secured or not. Certainly, consider all purchases made before last week - the users did not know anything about LVL. If a developer uses the LVL, they must request the CHECK_LICENSE permission. The user will be informed of this, just like any other permission. So yes, it's possible to tell at purchase time that an application is using the LVL. -- Trevor Johns Google Developer Programs, Android http://developer.android.com -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Android Developers group. To post to this group, send email to android-developers@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to android-developers+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/android-developers?hl=en
[android-developers] Re: LVL - A Massive Concern
I suspect the answer is no, but I think it's clearly a best practice. The only problem I see is that the market text size available (as of the last time I updated anyway) is so pathetic, it is really hard to communicate both what your app does, and details like this. But yeah, it's important to do so. On Aug 2, 12:33 pm, Mark Carter mjc1...@googlemail.com wrote: When the user makes a purchase, he usually does not know whether the app is LVL-secured or not. Certainly, consider all purchases made before last week - the users did not know anything about LVL. I was wondering more whether there is something in the Market app license agreement maybe saying something about using the app on non-Market app devices...? -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Android Developers group. To post to this group, send email to android-developers@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to android-developers+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/android-developers?hl=en
Re: [android-developers] Re: LVL - A Massive Concern
When I install an app (with that permission) I don't see the CHECK_LICENSE permission mentioned. The other permissions are mentioned but not that one. This is on N1 Froyo. Am I missing something!? On 2 August 2010 21:40, Trevor Johns tjo...@google.com wrote: On Mon, Aug 2, 2010 at 12:33 PM, Mark Carter mjc1...@googlemail.comwrote: When the user makes a purchase, he usually does not know whether the app is LVL-secured or not. Certainly, consider all purchases made before last week - the users did not know anything about LVL. If a developer uses the LVL, they must request the CHECK_LICENSE permission. The user will be informed of this, just like any other permission. So yes, it's possible to tell at purchase time that an application is using the LVL. -- Trevor Johns Google Developer Programs, Android http://developer.android.com -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Android Developers group. To post to this group, send email to android-developers@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to android-developers+unsubscr...@googlegroups.comandroid-developers%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/android-developers?hl=en -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Android Developers group. To post to this group, send email to android-developers@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to android-developers+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/android-developers?hl=en
Re: [android-developers] Re: LVL - A Massive Concern
Still, existing users are not going to be happy. Either update to LVL restrictions or don't update at all... -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Android Developers group. To post to this group, send email to android-developers@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to android-developers+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/android-developers?hl=en
[android-developers] Re: LVL - A Massive Concern
One thing I am considering is to check if Market is installed, and that the user is located in a country with access to paid apps before doing an LVL check. Just to bypass LVL and revert to the old behavior in case they dont have Market. My app has 5 users according to analytics, and 6500 according to Market, so just having people with access to paid apps actually pay for the app would be a big win. At the same time, pEople running AOSP builds would still be able to use the app. -Howard On Aug 2, 12:52 pm, Mark Carter mjc1...@googlemail.com wrote: Still, existing users are not going to be happy. Either update to LVL restrictions or dOne thing on't update at all...eople p -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Android Developers group. To post to this group, send email to android-developers@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to android-developers+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/android-developers?hl=en
[android-developers] Re: LVL - A Massive Concern
Someone did point out to me that LVL should not affect people on non- Market devices, which helps a bit, if its true (I haven't confirmed it), so that's a bit better, but I'm still very concerned about the damage some of the messes licensing concerns may cause, when right now, half the time downloading paid apps doesn't work right now as is. Additional mess, sigh. On Aug 1, 8:53 pm, ocdtrekkie jtn...@gmail.com wrote: Is nobody else worried about the rampant stupidity of DRM now being applied to Android? The music industry spend many years and billions of dollars before realizing DRM did not stop pirates, and merely harassed and annoyed paying customers. I for one, will not purchase any paid app that utilizes LVL protection, because I want the ability to use my apps on non-Market devices for example. It seems that every developer is gung ho about this, which is why I want to ask you guys, the developers, more about your opinions on this. DRM has been proven time and time again to do nothing to stop piracy, I have a membership in a tracker I use for replacing some of my damaged retail discs, and I see cracked copies of games coming through the same day of release, for major PC titles with massive DRM suites. The only thing it does, is inconvenience legitimate users who want to utilize their apps the way they want to. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Android Developers group. To post to this group, send email to android-developers@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to android-developers+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/android-developers?hl=en
[android-developers] Re: LVL - A Massive Concern
The only thing I can say is that it is going to be used primarily on paid apps. Paid apps that you would have had to buy through the market. Meaning that using them on non-market devices wouldn't be possible anyway, since the apps that will be using it are probably using the current form of copy protection which prevents you from using it on non-market devices seeing as you can't copy them. This is a completely different situation from music DRM. When you play DRM music you don't have it checking a server to see if you purchased it, they usually just make it retardedly restrictive to copy/move to a new device. On Aug 1, 9:02 pm, ocdtrekkie jtn...@gmail.com wrote: Someone did point out to me that LVL should not affect people on non- Market devices, which helps a bit, if its true (I haven't confirmed it), so that's a bit better, but I'm still very concerned about the damage some of the messes licensing concerns may cause, when right now, half the time downloading paid apps doesn't work right now as is. Additional mess, sigh. On Aug 1, 8:53 pm, ocdtrekkie jtn...@gmail.com wrote: Is nobody else worried about the rampant stupidity of DRM now being applied to Android? The music industry spend many years and billions of dollars before realizing DRM did not stop pirates, and merely harassed and annoyed paying customers. I for one, will not purchase any paid app that utilizes LVL protection, because I want the ability to use my apps on non-Market devices for example. It seems that every developer is gung ho about this, which is why I want to ask you guys, the developers, more about your opinions on this. DRM has been proven time and time again to do nothing to stop piracy, I have a membership in a tracker I use for replacing some of my damaged retail discs, and I see cracked copies of games coming through the same day of release, for major PC titles with massive DRM suites. The only thing it does, is inconvenience legitimate users who want to utilize their apps the way they want to. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Android Developers group. To post to this group, send email to android-developers@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to android-developers+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/android-developers?hl=en
