Re: [apple-crop] apple size

[Shoemaker, William H]

What region did you observe the Morren's Jonagored Supra on B9 Jon? Can you say 
something about chilling requirement for that cultivar? I think Jonagold is an 
excellent apple for fresh eating. If the New England Apple Association wants to 
brand it, I think they are making a good choice.

Bill

William H. Shoemaker

Retired fruit and vegetable horticulturist

University of Illinois

wshoe...@illinois.edu


From: apple-crop-boun...@virtualorchard.net 
[apple-crop-boun...@virtualorchard.net] on behalf of Jon Clements 
[jon.cleme...@umass.edu]
Sent: Sunday, January 10, 2016 4:56 PM
To: Apple-crop discussion list
Subject: Re: [apple-crop] apple size

Root pruning: YES
Withhold nitrogen: YES
Minimize dormant pruning, do some summer pruning (but don't remove fruit): YES
Use Apogee: YES
Over-crop: YES maybe, but use NAA and/or Ethrel to promote return bloom 
development
Use B.9 rootstock (as opposed to M.9): YES
Make sure you have enough variety to pollinate: YES

I found Morren's Jonagored Supra (Willow Drive) grown on B.9 rootstock to be a 
very nice Jonagold strain. Good crops without too many large fruit. Still have 
to watch biennial bearing. I would plant that strain in a heartbeat if I want 
Jonagold.

Did you hear New England Apple Association is going to brand Jonagold apples 
grown in New England? Not sure, however, what they are calling it?

Any other ideas out there?

Jon

On Sat, Jan 9, 2016 at 10:18 PM, Hugh Thomas 
> wrote:
I've always wondered about root pruning with a deep running and large disk. 
Just a thought...

On Sat, Jan 9, 2016 at 11:48 AM, David Kollas 
> wrote:


Art:

I don’t know whence the observations or measurements have come, 
but I saw a rootstock comparison
in which G202 was said to produce “smaller fruit size.”   For the 
reason you mention, I hope this is true, and of
more than just statistical significance.  I suspect that if it were a 
practical difference, we would have heard more
about it.

David Kollas
Kollas Orchard, Connecticut


On Jan 9, 2016, at 12:01 PM, Arthur Kelly 
> wrote:

> Any suggestions out there for how to reduce fruit size without getting into 
> biennial bearing as in not thinning?  Some varieties (Jonagold) would be more 
> marketable if they were 2.75 - 3.0" instead of all more than 3.0".
>
> --
> Art Kelly
> Kelly Orchards
> Acton, ME
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--
Jon Clements
aka 'Mr Honeycrisp'
UMass Cold Spring Orchard
393 Sabin St.
Belchertown, MA  01007
413-478-7219
umassfruit.com
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Re: [apple-crop] Arctic Apples again -

[Shoemaker, William H]

I don't think we can escape the difficulty the public has understanding genetic 
engineering. As Dennis suggests, the immense amount of misinformation in public 
forums is bound to create confusion. We need better leadership on this issue. 
But I don't think its possible for retail farmers to escape being the face of 
agriculture to their customers. I think the best approach is tell them you 
don't grow GMO products and that you are no expert. I don't believe specialty 
crop agriculture is responsible for defending Monsanto.



Bill

William H. Shoemaker

Retired fruit and vegetable horticulturist

University of Illinois

wshoe...@illinois.edumailto:wshoe...@illinois.edu


From: apple-crop-boun...@virtualorchard.net 
[apple-crop-boun...@virtualorchard.net] on behalf of 
dmnor...@royaloakfarmorchard.com [dmnor...@royaloakfarmorchard.com]
Sent: Monday, March 30, 2015 4:52 PM
To: Apple-crop discussion list
Subject: Re: [apple-crop] Arctic Apples again -

I jsut read the last data from Facebook that indicates they have over 1.3 
billion users!  When I see the erroneous information that gets posted to the 
news feed on Facebook about GMO's, Monsanto and the Arctic apple, and the 
number of people that believe this stuff.it scares me to think what the 
future of growers and farmers is going to become!!

Dennis Norton
IPM Specialist/Certified Nurseryman/IT Specialist
Royal Oak Farm Orchard
15908 Hebron Rd.
Harvard, IL 60033-9357
Office (815) 648-4467
Mobile (815) 228-2174
Fax (609) 228-2174
http://www.royaloakfarmorchard.com
http://www.royaloakfarmorchard.blogspot.com
https://www.facebook.com/royaloakfarmorchard/
- Original Message -
From: Craig Tannermailto:cr...@tannersorchard.com
To: 'Apple-crop discussion list'mailto:apple-crop@virtualorchard.net
Sent: Monday, March 30, 2015 3:25 PM
Subject: Re: [apple-crop] Arctic Apples again -

GMO apples may contaminate nearby organic and conventional apple orchards and 
could potentially cause valuable export markets to reject U.S. apples as 
happened in past when wheat and rice crops were found to be contaminated by 
GMOs. A - See more at: 
http://www.foe.org/projects/food-and-technology/genetic-engineering/no-gmo-apples#sthash.FRll2V3z.dpuf

what?  how?  this statement makes my head spin

Craig Tanner
Tanners Orchard, Ltd.
Speer, IL
309-493-5442
309-493-5741 fax
306-360-5610 cell



From: apple-crop-boun...@virtualorchard.net 
[mailto:apple-crop-boun...@virtualorchard.net] On Behalf Of David Doud
Sent: Monday, March 30, 2015 11:28 AM
To: Apple-Crop
Subject: [apple-crop] Arctic Apples again -

Sorry to beat this, but I think it's in our interest to stay informed - if the 
powers that be want me to give it a rest, I will -

I copy and paste an email that went out to subscribers to 
Well.orghttp://Well.org - it was forwarded to me - I am unfamiliar with this 
organization and a peek at their website doesn't impress and the website itself 
doesn't have any content about Arctic Apples -

I've been made aware of at least one other organization promoting anti-Arctic 
Apple sentiment - 
http://www.foe.org/projects/food-and-technology/genetic-engineering/no-gmo-apples

I investigated the claim that McDonald's and Gerber... and it's not as 
presented - they have 'no plans' because there is no product available to buy, 
but they have not rejected and Gerber specifically admits and defends using GMO 
products -

Looks like battle lines are being drawn and strategies arctic-ulated -

David Doud
peach leaf curl spray this week -
2012 on this date was apple full bloom - not at silver tip yet this year, but 
soon -

You're hearing from us because you subscribed via 
Well.orghttp://vitaloriginswellorgllc.cmail2.com/t/t-l-thbijk-illrihdyd-j/. 
Last year, we released the Origins documentary for free to over 700,000 people 
across the world. If you want to unsubscribe, click 
herehttp://vitaloriginswellorgllc.cmail2.com/t/t-u-thbijk-illrihdyd-q/.



[Well.org]


On Friday the 13th, the USDA approved the unnecessary, unlabeled, and poorly 
tested GMO apple. It was an unlucky day indeed for the apple growers, food 
companies, and people like us who want to protect our families from GMO foods.

But it’s not all bad news. Thanks to pressure from thousands of people like 
you, McDonald’s and Gerber -- two of the biggest purchasers of apples -- have 
already confirmed that they have no plans to sell GMO apples. Their commitments 
will help keep this risky product off the market.

Now, we need to get other fast food companies to join them. If we can get the 
top 10 fast food companies, including Burger King, Wendy’s, Subway and Dunkin' 
Donuts, to commit to not sell the GMO apple, we may be able to prevent it from 
ending up on our plates!

Tell these fast food restaurants to say NO to GMO 
apples!http://vitaloriginswellorgllc.cmail2.com/t/t-l-thbijk-illrihdyd-t/

The apple in question – known as the “Arctic Apple®” -- 

Re: [apple-crop] arctic apples

[Shoemaker, William H]

I like your comment David, and I agree. I don't want to carry water for them 
anyway. All of these companies pay big money for the best lawyers and 
lobbyists. They need to help defending their actions. I take the position when 
pressed by folks who are not familiar with genetic engineering that I'm 
comfortable with the technique, but that I'm not sure I'm comfortable with how 
its being employed. I'd like to see more caution and more effort to give the 
public real answers to their questions about these products and about the way 
these techniques are used. I think they companies which employ GMOs don't feel 
they need to be accountable for the products they are putting into the 
marketplace. Every direct-market growers knows that they face accountability, 
like it or not, and must reconcile with it in some way. And while these 
companies do to, like it or not, I don't think they are being fair to the 
consumer in the marketplace by failing to make more effort to address their 
questi
 ons about their products. So I tell those folks who ask that I can't defend 
the products, not because I think they are unsafe, but because I don't agree 
with the way they are being introduced into the market.

Bill
William H. Shoemaker
Retired fruit and vegetable horticulturist
University of Illinois
wshoe...@illinois.edu


From: apple-crop-boun...@virtualorchard.net 
[apple-crop-boun...@virtualorchard.net] on behalf of David Doud 
[david_d...@me.com]
Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2015 8:53 AM
To: Apple-Crop
Subject: [apple-crop] arctic apples

Well, I have been to two social events since the GMO 'Arctic apples' have been 
in the news - and that is what people want to talk to me about - and pretty 
much only that...

How are you all handling this? My personal opinions aside, I don't want to 
'carry water' for these guys - they aren't going to let me grow them even if I 
wanted to and I don't feel inclined to spend my time and credibility providing 
them cover and fighting their marketing struggle for them -

This is going to be a frequently reoccurring issue this season - I've got an 
event to go to this afternoon and I am dreading this aspect of it -

David Doud
grower, IN
below 0*F, way behind on pruning

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Re: [apple-crop] arctic apples

[Shoemaker, William H]

I think you present an interesting example Claude. I'm not sure how many people 
remember the irradiation technology anymore. Ginda presents evidence that it is 
still used, but it seems to me that for all its potential, it is used at a very 
minimal level. Yet it had such potential for addressing an issue that still 
plagues us today; safe food.



It wonderful to have a technology that guarantees safe food, or more productive 
food, or reduced use of pesticides, or more money in the pocket for producers, 
packagers, processors and purveyors. Now, if we could only get those darn 
consumers to eat this stuff!!! What's wrong with them?!! Why don't they just 
accept what we have to say?!! It's safe, darn it



Of course it is. But really, we don't pay for the product in the marketplace. 
Consumers do. So convincing each other on this list will be fine and dandy. If 
only we could just buy each others product, make our profits and sleep well at 
night.



Who will convince consumers that GMOs are safe? Government regulators? Local 
growers? University researchers? News anchors? Leading politicians? I will 
submit that those most responsible for making the case for the safety of GMOs 
is none of the above. It must be done by those who stand to profit most from 
it; the corporate entities which are licensing it and introducing it to the 
marketplace. Even if all of those other stellar folks I suggested as 
alternatives made wonderful arguments in favor of these products, consumers 
want to hear from those who are actually using the technology and introducing 
the food they are expected to purchase, eat and tell their neighbors about 
(What a wonderful time they had with this delightful GMO!).



Now you may be getting the impression I don't like genetic engineering. You'd 
be wrong. I think its a fantastic technology with enormous promise. I think 
I've watched every GMO fruit and vegetable variety that was introduced to the 
market since the Flavor Savor tomato, back in the early 90's. I was stunned 
when it wasn't accepted by consumers. It was followed by several other 
products. A few have survived but those are generally handled in the market 
without consumers knowing that they are buying and eating a genetically 
engineered food. Flavor Savor was withdrawn pretty quickly. Why? Consumers 
didn't accept it. Its been a couple of decades since, and consumers generally 
are still not buying the argument that GMOs are safe. What is wrong with these 
people?!!



What is wrong is that, in the marketplace, where people are free to make the 
choices they want to make, based on their best understanding of the choices 
before them, no one has managed to make the case that this is a better product. 
Its really not difficult. Until someone convinces them, they will 
remain,.unconvinced. Who will step

forward and convince these poor people? Don't you think it ought to be the 
people who have the most to gain from convincing them? I think that would be 
the people who license the technology.



You can try to make the case its safe to your consumers. They'll decide for 
themselves. But the bottom line is that, whoever is supposed to make that case 
has done a pretty poor job of it. Do you want to take that problem on? Again, 
you may not need to. You can get by just fine without Arctic Apple I would 
guess. There are lots of other choices out there that would probably be better 
for your customers anyway. Besides, its not really being introduced as a fresh 
market apple.



Still, its being introduced and the marketplace will reckon with it. It always 
does. Will the consumer be better off? I think that's the question that needs 
to be answered. Those who license the technology should be up front in 
answering that question and win the marketplace with their own resources.



David R. brings up good points about the potential of this safe technology to 
address so many pressing issues facing food and agriculture locally and 
globally. Its just a crying shame that the brand of GMO has been so mishandled 
by those making most of the money from it.



Bill

William H. Shoemaker

Retired fruit and vegetable horticulturist

University of Illinois

wshoe...@illinois.edumailto:wshoe...@illinois.edu


From: apple-crop-boun...@virtualorchard.net 
[apple-crop-boun...@virtualorchard.net] on behalf of Claude Jolicoeur 
[cj...@gmc.ulaval.ca]
Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2015 6:57 PM
To: Apple-crop
Subject: Re: [apple-crop] arctic apples

Le 18:50 2015.02.26, vous avez écrit:
I am not particularly excited about the advantages of Arctic Apples, although 
it will be interesting to see if they eventually play a role in expanding the 
shelf life of sliced apples.


There was a discussion on those apples on another forum recently, and one 
person had a very interesting argument, which I think makes a lot of sense.

It would be that these apples are not intended to be sold direct to 
consumers... 

Re: [apple-crop] Apples From China?

[Shoemaker, William H]

Well-spoken Dave. My work experiences on farms from 7 on up were instrumental 
in my understanding the real world. I wish many more of our youth would have 
such an experience. I hope we can work together as Americans to contribute to a 
solution to the problems we face. The alternative is worse.



Bill

William H. Shoemaker

Retired fruit and vegetable horticulturist

University of Illinois

wshoe...@illinois.edumailto:wshoe...@illinois.edu


From: apple-crop-boun...@virtualorchard.net 
[apple-crop-boun...@virtualorchard.net] on behalf of David A. Rosenberger 
[da...@cornell.edu]
Sent: Saturday, August 16, 2014 8:05 AM
To: Apple-crop discussion list
Subject: Re: [apple-crop] Apples From China?

I agree with you, Hugh, that government regulations are rarely “benign”, and 
child labor restrictions that prevent young teenagers from gaining work 
experience are one of my pet peeves.  Much of what I learned about agriculture, 
work ethic, and the business world has come from growing up on a farm and then 
working on another farm and at farm markets from ages 11 to 16.

However, experience has shown that, in the absence of laws, ruthless employers 
will not pay $6/hr or perhaps even 60 cents per hour if they can get a needy 
labor force to work for 6 cents per hour (after deducting meals and housing).  
Our country decided the slavery issue in a bloody war many years ago, and most 
of us have no desire to return to that era. While minimum wage laws may drive 
up the price of production when a product is consider in the absence of 
externals, the issue is less clear of one considers the social costs of low 
wages. If the government does not provide any support for those at the low end 
of the social scale, then they have no choice but to attempt living via 
criminal enterprises and costs for guarding business investments increase.  In 
some countries and some eras, farmers have been unable to prevent theft of 
crops unless they posted guards around the fields 24 hr/day.  Would that be 
less expensive than paying minimum wages?

Obviously not all crime is caused by poverty, and our society already has more 
than enough crime even with minimum wage laws in place.  My point is that the 
straight-line assumption that reducing wages reduces costs is overly simplistic 
because it ignores the complexity of society and the unexpected costs of 
“externals” that impact every business enterprise in a destabilized society.

I am currently on a trip during which my wife and I have driven nearly 2000 
miles through PA, OH, MI, IN, IL, WI, and MN. It appears to me that the 
interstate highway system is is worse condition now than at anytime since I 
began driving 51 years ago. We have saved a lot of taxes by delaying 
maintenance on highways and bridges, but as a result, all of us are paying more 
for wear on our cars, delays due to slow traffic, and perhaps even increases in 
accidents attributable to poor roads.  If the current trend continues, apple 
growers will soon be obliged to ship apples only in trucks that have 
air-cushion suspension because I suspect the rough highways will bruise apples 
riding to market in trucks just as much as they bruise my butt riding in a 
mid-size car. The need for a public highway system, along with numerous other 
government “services”, illustrates why a functional government and taxation 
system are essential for a civilized society.  There is certainly plenty of 
government waste that should be eliminated, but I suspect that most of that 
“waste” is actually going to the wealthy (think lobbyists, beltway bandits, 
defense contractors, farm subsidies) rather than to the welfare segment of our 
society.


Dave Rosenberger, Professor Emeritus
Dept. of Plant Pathology and Plant-Microbe Biology
Cornell’s Hudson Valley Lab, P.O. Box 727, Highland, NY 12528
   Office:  845-691-7231Cell: 845-594-3060
http://blogs.cornell.edu/plantpathhvl/blog-2014/


On Aug 16, 2014, at 2:35 AM, Hugh Thomas 
hughthoma...@gmail.commailto:hughthoma...@gmail.com wrote:

There are many PhD's in economics, some with Nobel Prizes, that agree minimum 
wage laws and unemployment benefits drive up the cost of production. This is so 
easy to see that it is amazing anyone would think differently. If minimum wage 
laws do not create unemployment, why not raise it to $100 per hour, or even 
better, $500 per hour?

When China dumped their Soviet style, state planned economy for a free market 
approach, they destroyed small manufacturing here in the US, simply because to 
comply with the restrictive laws here is too expensive to remain competitive.

Many see high-cost government regulation as being benign, a help to the poor 
people. I see it differently. A 16 year-old kid could get real world experience 
de-tasseling corn or planting tomatoes - 

Re: [apple-crop] apples and chemicals

[Shoemaker, William H]

I don't know the answer to this question. I'm curious about it too. I also 
wonder how much of that kind of work is in development. I doubt anyone knows as 
so much of it is done in the private sector. 

But I remember conducting trials of pumpkins in the '90s on some 
virus-resistant GMO pumpkins that derived their genetic material from a 
different species within the cucurbit genus. I believe it was a wild species 
that was incompatible for an intergeneric cross. We really need such resistance 
but it was withdrawn because of perceived market risk. 

Bill
William H. Shoemaker
Retired fruit and vegetable horticulturist
University of Illinois
wshoe...@illinois.edu


My question is this: does anyone know how many of the GMO crops/organisms that 
are currently approved for food crops actually involve genetic transfers among 
widely-separated species as compared to the number of GMOs that involve only 
modifications of genes within plants or the addition of virus coat proteins 
from viruses that are already commonly found in the plant species of interest?
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Re: [apple-crop] Apples to Apple

[Shoemaker, William H]

No mention of MacIntosh!??   

Bill
William H. Shoemaker
University of Illinois, Crop Sciences
St Charles Horticulture Research Center
535 Randall Road, St Charles, IL  60174
630-584-7254, wshoe...@illinois.edu


From: apple-crop-boun...@virtualorchard.net 
[apple-crop-boun...@virtualorchard.net] on behalf of Jon Clements 
[cleme...@umext.umass.edu]
Sent: Saturday, January 28, 2012 10:28 AM
To: Apple-Crop
Subject: [apple-crop] Apples to Apple

http://mashable.com/2012/01/09/apple-company-fruit-comparison/

--
JMCEXTMAN
Jon Clements
cleme...@umext.umass.edu
aka 'Mr Liberty'
aka 'Mr Honeycrisp'
IM mrhoneycrisp
413.478.7219
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