[apple-crop] Pommier, Le Mur Fruiter
Hello all, Point 5 is in my mind probably the most vital to get right. If this does not work the system will not work. Quote: 5) This shearing shortly before solstice allows for short extension of growth. As solstice is passed, days begin to become shorter. As days become shorter, tree is keyed to shift from vegetative growth to reproductive, and so extension growth is limited and conversion of growth to fruiting bud initiation begins. 5/ yes that's the explanation from Louis Lorette who did a theorization of summer pruning in early 20th. In our case I am afraid that we did a more empirical work, designing trials to find the best pruning date in our conditions. The 10 leaves date, seems to work for France. I have been looking at summer pruning for many years, and in our part of the World, a 10 leaves point of pruning, or just around June 21st, does not work. In fact, for most varieties, early August, perhaps even the second week of August, is the appropriate time. The date at which a shoot can be headed with reasonable expectation of forming a fruit bud on resultant brindle seems to depend on crop load, soil nutrition and soil type (which can vary across a field or orchard), water availability, apple variety, use of gibberellin inhibitor (like prohexadione calcium) and then something like an Indian Summer (an unusually warm spell in mid August) can cause re-growth of buds which you would expect to set fruit buds, resulting in turn in no shoot tip fruit buds. What I am attempting to put across is that using mechanical pruning with this system is not without difficulty, and what may work well in France may not work so well elsewhere. A most interesting conversation; many thanks. Con Traas The Apple Farm Cahir Ireland ___ apple-crop mailing list apple-crop@virtualorchard.net http://virtualorchard.net/mailman/listinfo/apple-crop
Re: [apple-crop] Pommier, Le Mur Fruiter
Thank you Jean and Con, You have made what on the surface appeared to be an easy transition, into a most interesting, albeit time consuming, research project. I assume now that when Jean states that he is not confident with conversions in comment related to question two, having to do with the timing of summer hedging, that you meant that you are not confident with stating that we here in Massachusetts would find that the correct timing for hedging would be 10 leaves, as opposed to not being confident of the wisdom of conversion of training systems. As you have both clearly stated that the single most critical aspect of this system is determining the proper timing for summer hedging, then proceeding with caution is advised. Last summer the IFTA visited several NY orchards who were employing modified summer hedging. Though they were not attempting to keep as thin a wall as described, I believe they were performing the hedging in August as suggested by Con. Jean, would it be possible to receive the protocol you developed to test for timing of summer pruning, or is it as simple as shearing at a series of timings, and then watching for results? Thanks again for your input. Maurice On Tue, Apr 5, 2011 at 6:38 AM, Con.Traas con.tr...@ul.ie wrote: Hello all, Point 5 is in my mind probably the most vital to get right. If this does not work the system will not work. Quote: 5) This shearing shortly before solstice allows for short extension of growth. As solstice is passed, days begin to become shorter. As days become shorter, tree is keyed to shift from vegetative growth to reproductive, and so extension growth is limited and conversion of growth to fruiting bud initiation begins. 5/ yes that's the explanation from Louis Lorette who did a theorization of summer pruning in early 20th. In our case I am afraid that we did a more empirical work, designing trials to find the best pruning date in our conditions. The 10 leaves date, seems to work for France. I have been looking at summer pruning for many years, and in our part of the World, a 10 leaves point of pruning, or just around June 21st, does not work. In fact, for most varieties, early August, perhaps even the second week of August, is the appropriate time. The date at which a shoot can be headed with reasonable expectation of forming a fruit bud on resultant brindle seems to depend on crop load, soil nutrition and soil type (which can vary across a field or orchard), water availability, apple variety, use of gibberellin inhibitor (like prohexadione calcium) and then something like an Indian Summer (an unusually warm spell in mid August) can cause re-growth of buds which you would expect to set fruit buds, resulting in turn in no shoot tip fruit buds. What I am attempting to put across is that using mechanical pruning with this system is not without difficulty, and what may work well in France may not work so well elsewhere. A most interesting conversation; many thanks. Con Traas The Apple Farm Cahir Ireland ___ apple-crop mailing list apple-crop@virtualorchard.net http://virtualorchard.net/mailman/listinfo/apple-crop -- Maurice Tougas Tougas Family Farm Northborough,MA 01532 508-450-0844 ___ apple-crop mailing list apple-crop@virtualorchard.net http://virtualorchard.net/mailman/listinfo/apple-crop
Re: [apple-crop] Pommier, Le Mur Fruiter
Jean, Please comment/correct my impressions of what principles are involved with the le Mur fruitier system. 1) The tree form result is a wall which is 1 meter thick at the base, 1/2 meter wide at the top. 2) Mechanical pruning consists of a single annual shearing at 6 to 8/10 leaves upon the fruiting shoot. Exception being first year conversion when a single shearing would additionally take place as buds break in the spring. 3) That initial spring shearing stimulates numerous points of growth, which will later be sheared at the 6-10 leaf shearing. 4) The shearing at 6-10 leaves is timed to coincide with a relatively short period of time before summer solstice. 5) This shearing shortly before solstice allows for short extension of growth. As solstice is passed, days begin to become shorter. As days become shorter, tree is keyed to shift from vegetative growth to reproductive, and so extension growth is limited and conversion of growth to fruiting bud initiation begins. 6) With total width of no more than 1 meter, sunlight needs to travel no more than 1/2 meter to reach trunk (assuming north/south orientation), and so an adequate amount of sunlight exposure is maintained though out the canopy. 7) Depth or severity of pruning is determined by crop load. If crop is heavy, then more severe, or deeper shearing is employed. 8) Tree planting distance is 80cm by 3 meters. 9) Conversion from axis, tall spindle and super spindle tree forms are possible. 10) Hedging must occur when dry weather is predicted and conditions for fireblight infection are not high. 11) The year of conversion will result in significant yield reduction. 12) Initial spring shearing year of conversion should be at 40 cm from the trunk at the base, tapering to 20 cm at the top. 13) Mechanical thinning of blossoms is encouraged by this system. 14) Mechanical thinning should take place at the pink bud stage. 15) Yield increase of 10% as compared to traditional hand pruned trees is expected. 16) Increase in red color is expected. 17) Decrease in fruit sunburn is expected. 18) Total reduction in labor requirements is expected in the range of 10%. You are most kind to comment on these impressions. If there are additional points you believe I should consider, please feel free to bring them into the discussion. Thank you again, Maurice Tougas Fruit grower Northborough, MA On Fri, Apr 1, 2011 at 12:29 PM, maurice tougas appleman.maur...@gmail.com wrote: Hello Jean, This must be my lucky day. Je dois traiter ma femme à dîner ce soir! I will soon develop a list of questions for you. Thank you so much for your offer. Maurice 2011/4/1 Jourdain Jean-Marc jourd...@ctifl.fr Hi Maurice To my knowledge there is no translation of the book. Since the concept was created in our orchards here in Lanxade Centre (near Bergerac South West of France), I shall be able to answer all questions. The first rows of this training system were planted in 1995 for better access to fruit, since we were hosting a robotic harvester program at that time. Then the robotic program fell down, too much cost, too poor yield, then we decided to go on with the orchard. Jean Marc Jourdain Ctifl Centre manager Jourdain(at)Ctifl.fr -- Forwarded message -- From: maurice tougas appleman.maur...@gmail.com Date: Fri, Apr 1, 2011 at 7:24 AM Subject: Pommier, Le Mur Fruiter To: Andre Tougas tougasf...@gmail.com Croppers, Does anyone know of a translated version of Pommier, le Mur fruitier? I am intrigued by the concept of this system after having traveled to Belgium last week scouting visits for the IFTA study tour this summer. We saw example of orchards trated with this system, and will be visiting them in July. The above publication appears to be the best coverage of the system I've seen. Alas, mon papa is no longer with me to help me with this. Maurice Tougas -- Maurice Tougas Tougas Family Farm Northborough,MA 01532 508-450-0844 -- Maurice Tougas Tougas Family Farm Northborough,MA 01532 508-450-0844 ___ apple-crop mailing list apple-crop@virtualorchard.net http://virtualorchard.net/mailman/listinfo/apple-crop -- Maurice Tougas Tougas Family Farm Northborough,MA 01532 508-450-0844 -- Maurice Tougas Tougas Family Farm Northborough,MA 01532 508-450-0844 ___ apple-crop mailing list apple-crop@virtualorchard.net http://virtualorchard.net/mailman/listinfo/apple-crop
[apple-crop] Pommier, Le Mur Fruiter
-- Forwarded message -- From: maurice tougas appleman.maur...@gmail.com Date: Fri, Apr 1, 2011 at 7:24 AM Subject: Pommier, Le Mur Fruiter To: Andre Tougas tougasf...@gmail.com Croppers, Does anyone know of a translated version of Pommier, le Mur fruitier? I am intrigued by the concept of this system after having traveled to Belgium last week scouting visits for the IFTA study tour this summer. We saw example of orchards trated with this system, and will be visiting them in July. The above publication appears to be the best coverage of the system I've seen. Alas, mon papa is no longer with me to help me with this. Maurice Tougas -- Maurice Tougas Tougas Family Farm Northborough,MA 01532 508-450-0844 -- Maurice Tougas Tougas Family Farm Northborough,MA 01532 508-450-0844 ___ apple-crop mailing list apple-crop@virtualorchard.net http://virtualorchard.net/mailman/listinfo/apple-crop
Re: [apple-crop] Pommier, Le Mur Fruiter
Hi Maurice To my knowledge there is no translation of the book. Since the concept was created in our orchards here in Lanxade Centre (near Bergerac South West of France), I shall be able to answer all questions. The first rows of this training system were planted in 1995 for better access to fruit, since we were hosting a robotic harvester program at that time. Then the robotic program fell down, too much cost, too poor yield, then we decided to go on with the orchard. Jean Marc Jourdain Ctifl Centre manager Jourdain(at)Ctifl.fr -- Forwarded message -- From: maurice tougas appleman.maur...@gmail.commailto:appleman.maur...@gmail.com Date: Fri, Apr 1, 2011 at 7:24 AM Subject: Pommier, Le Mur Fruiter To: Andre Tougas tougasf...@gmail.commailto:tougasf...@gmail.com Croppers, Does anyone know of a translated version of Pommier, le Mur fruitier? I am intrigued by the concept of this system after having traveled to Belgium last week scouting visits for the IFTA study tour this summer. We saw example of orchards trated with this system, and will be visiting them in July. The above publication appears to be the best coverage of the system I've seen. Alas, mon papa is no longer with me to help me with this. Maurice Tougas -- Maurice Tougas Tougas Family Farm Northborough,MA 01532 508-450-0844tel:508-450-0844 -- Maurice Tougas Tougas Family Farm Northborough,MA 01532 508-450-0844 ___ apple-crop mailing list apple-crop@virtualorchard.net http://virtualorchard.net/mailman/listinfo/apple-crop
Re: [apple-crop] Pommier, Le Mur Fruiter
Bonjour, I see the publication is available in French at http://www.amazon.fr/Pommier-mur-fruitier-Collectif/dp/2879111838. What is the publication date? To what extent has le mur fruitier been adopted in French commercial production? Merci beaucoup! Jon 2011/4/1 Jourdain Jean-Marc jourd...@ctifl.fr: Hi Maurice To my knowledge there is no translation of the book. Since the concept was created in our orchards here in Lanxade Centre (near Bergerac South West of France), I shall be able to answer all questions. The first rows of this training system were planted in 1995 for better access to fruit, since we were hosting a robotic harvester program at that time. Then the robotic program fell down, too much cost, too poor yield, then we decided to go on with the orchard. Jean Marc Jourdain Ctifl Centre manager Jourdain(at)Ctifl.fr -- Forwarded message -- From: maurice tougas appleman.maur...@gmail.com Date: Fri, Apr 1, 2011 at 7:24 AM Subject: Pommier, Le Mur Fruiter To: Andre Tougas tougasf...@gmail.com Croppers, Does anyone know of a translated version of Pommier, le Mur fruitier? I am intrigued by the concept of this system after having traveled to Belgium last week scouting visits for the IFTA study tour this summer. We saw example of orchards trated with this system, and will be visiting them in July. The above publication appears to be the best coverage of the system I've seen. Alas, mon papa is no longer with me to help me with this. Maurice Tougas -- Maurice Tougas Tougas Family Farm Northborough,MA 01532 508-450-0844 -- Maurice Tougas Tougas Family Farm Northborough,MA 01532 508-450-0844 ___ apple-crop mailing list apple-crop@virtualorchard.net http://virtualorchard.net/mailman/listinfo/apple-crop -- JMCEXTMAN Jon Clements cleme...@umext.umass.edu aka 'Mr Liberty' aka 'Mr Honeycrisp' IM mrhoneycrisp 413.478.7219 ___ apple-crop mailing list apple-crop@virtualorchard.net http://virtualorchard.net/mailman/listinfo/apple-crop
Re: [apple-crop] Pommier, Le Mur Fruiter
Hello Jean, This must be my lucky day. Je dois traiter ma femme à dîner ce soir! I will soon develop a list of questions for you. Thank you so much for your offer. Maurice 2011/4/1 Jourdain Jean-Marc jourd...@ctifl.fr Hi Maurice To my knowledge there is no translation of the book. Since the concept was created in our orchards here in Lanxade Centre (near Bergerac South West of France), I shall be able to answer all questions. The first rows of this training system were planted in 1995 for better access to fruit, since we were hosting a robotic harvester program at that time. Then the robotic program fell down, too much cost, too poor yield, then we decided to go on with the orchard. Jean Marc Jourdain Ctifl Centre manager Jourdain(at)Ctifl.fr -- Forwarded message -- From: maurice tougas appleman.maur...@gmail.com Date: Fri, Apr 1, 2011 at 7:24 AM Subject: Pommier, Le Mur Fruiter To: Andre Tougas tougasf...@gmail.com Croppers, Does anyone know of a translated version of Pommier, le Mur fruitier? I am intrigued by the concept of this system after having traveled to Belgium last week scouting visits for the IFTA study tour this summer. We saw example of orchards trated with this system, and will be visiting them in July. The above publication appears to be the best coverage of the system I've seen. Alas, mon papa is no longer with me to help me with this. Maurice Tougas -- Maurice Tougas Tougas Family Farm Northborough,MA 01532 508-450-0844 -- Maurice Tougas Tougas Family Farm Northborough,MA 01532 508-450-0844 ___ apple-crop mailing list apple-crop@virtualorchard.net http://virtualorchard.net/mailman/listinfo/apple-crop -- Maurice Tougas Tougas Family Farm Northborough,MA 01532 508-450-0844 ___ apple-crop mailing list apple-crop@virtualorchard.net http://virtualorchard.net/mailman/listinfo/apple-crop
