Re: [Audiogames-reflector] Training Centers
Re: Training Centers Its quite possible for any organization to have good individual survices but a less good over all ethos. For example Ive mentioned how bloody annoying the RNIB is over here, accept that they do fund the audio description service for tv and have run some fairly successful political campaignes in the past, for example it is due to the RNib that the bbc have description on some of their live broardcasts, heck the penfriend I use to lable my dvds etc was bought from the rnib (although in typical rnib fashion you cant just buy what lables you want for the machine, you have to buy by pack where get what your given and like it). Those things dont however excuse other inequities, remember the first government in the entire world who banned cruel experiments upon animals was of all people Hitlers! .URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=173814#p173814 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com http://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: [Audiogames-reflector] Training Centers
Re: Training Centers Well said. I vaguely recall my brother being offered NFB scholarships several years ago, which he rejected. Some of the NFBs tactics are certainly not to be taken lightly. I too, have met and heard about a few level-headed Federationists but it seems the majority of them are still hard-core. I recall a phone conversation I had several years ago with a member of the NFB of Illinois who seemed to be pretty level-headed. She was talking about the guy who was their chapter president at the time, and she said he was pretty much a jerk. It just seems that a lot of NFB members still to this day have a one-size-fits-all mentality, and Im sorry folks but thats not how the world works. But on the other hand, I think the Federation has done some good things. An example is Newsline. Ive been subscribed to the service for several years. Although Ive never been much of a news junky--particularly in lieu of all this violence and hatred--I love Newsline. I was listening to the episode of Eyes on Success yesterday with Scott White, the director of Newsline. He mentioned that 4 states are not registered due to funding. I really hope this situation can be remedied very soon. Well, Id better get my dishes and grocery list done before my life-skills tutor gets here, or else Im in deep sh*t. Im outa here!BryanP wrote:Well said Turtlepower. I have even less respect for Cristianity than I do for the NFB and its philosophies, and the wa a lot of people preach te NFB mentality it might as well be an established religion. Yes I have met perfectly well-balanced, reasonable NFB members but they have been few and far between.URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=173761#p173761 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com http://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: [Audiogames-reflector] Training Centers
Re: Training Centers Well said Turtlepower. I have even less respect for Cristianity than I do for the NFB and its philosophies, and the wa a lot of people preach te NFB mentality it might as well be an established religion. Yes I have met perfectly well-balanced, reasonable NFB members but they have been few and far between.URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=173512#p173512 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com http://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: [Audiogames-reflector] Training Centers
Re: Training Centers @BryanPIm sure glad you used the words often happens in your post, and I hope you genuinely meant it as not applying to everyone. I think its possible to belong to a blindness organization like the NFB and be a normal well-adjusted individual.Im sorry the blind people in your area seem to have a poor attitude about blindness. I think its fair to say, though, that not all blind people do.URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=173406#p173406 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com http://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: [Audiogames-reflector] Training Centers
Re: Training Centers Well, thats just it. I think that, far too often, people join the NFB seeking to fill a void in their lives. Dont misunderstand me here; the NFB isnt to blame for this, human psychology is. People join churches for the same reason. Then they devote their entire lives to the cause, losing themselves in the process, and trying to convert others to their newfound freedom. Take note of all the times I put quotes around words in that paragraph, because, frankly, I think thats unhealthy, whether were discussing an organization of the blind or a sect of Christianity.I feel that the NFB should be discouraging this kind of behavior in its members. Christian churches, at least, have the excuse that the Bible teaches one to be dependent on God, and that any straying from that is sinful and so on. But the NFB is trying to encourage independence. I feel that any kind of conversion tactics, not to mention the emotional, rat her than logical, reasoning that some members I have encountered have used to try to get me to join, are directly counterproductive to a strong, independent, self-reliant image. I dont consider it a mark of a stable individual if they are literally preaching to me about convention speeches, bursting into tears and telling me over and over about how much the NFB has changed their life, and how I should stop being skeptical and join. Yes, this happened to me once, and this was the first conversation that I had with the individual in question. Lest you think Im passing judgment on unstable or mentally ill individuals, I assure you that Im not--Im not exactly a posterchild for well-being myself--but that kind of thing will make me back up real fast. Less extreme, but equally irritating, things have happened to me as well in regards to conversion by several different belief systems and organizations. I guess I just dont respond to that kind of th ing. I prefer to think for myself, weigh my options, and draw my own conclusions.I forget if I said any or all of this before, so I apologize if Ive repeated myself.URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=173446#p173446 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com http://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: [Audiogames-reflector] Training Centers
Re: Training Centers Yep, thats it. I dont necessarily think that its a bad thing that it exists, for those who need it, but I can also kind of se how people in your state might direct you there if you ask for any kind of blindness-related services, and that cant be a good thing. As I said, the person I know who lives there seems to enjoy being there, and Im not going to piss on anyones parade when it comes to their living situation. What matters most is that you feel safe in your environment, and, if you need that extra level of support for whatever reason, my attitude is, so what? NFB people have torn my friend down when she revealed that she lived there, but I hope she didnt take that too seriously.URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=172347#p172347 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com http://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: [Audiogames-reflector] Training Centers
Re: Training Centers Ive heard of the place to which you refer here, and I have a friend who lives there. She seems to like it there pretty much. It is called Friedman Place, or Freedman Place. I forget which spelling they use. But anyway, I actually met one of the staff members there several years ago when I went out for breakfast with some buddies and a sister. She is friends with a family friend of ours, and I think shes in charge of activities there. At least she was at the time. The founder/exec director of a nonprofit organization for which Ive volunteered, was going to go there and talk with them about some type of partnership, but I dont believe anything ever came of that. But Id be interested in just touring the facility sometime, and talking with the staff. In addition, my friend who lives there has said that she wants to get together with me again sometime. She is blind, and I think might have some additional disabilities.t urtlepower17 wrote:Ive heard about the high rate of institutionalizing in Illinois. Its a shame, really, but it makes sense. I think its because its one of the few states that actually has an apartment complex specifically for the blind, and, if you live there, you dont even have kitchen appliances in your apartment. You have to eat cafeteria food that they provide, from what I understand. Then again, supposedly they work with you on vocational or educational goals, so I dont know what to think. I feel that if a person is elderly, or has multiple disabilities, such a place may be appropriate for them, but the person I know who lives there is intelligent and well-spoken.URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=172224#p172224 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com http://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: [Audiogames-reflector] Training Centers
Re: Training Centers Glad I dont live in Illinois then. But those closed-minded individuals are precisely why I dont have many blind friends in my day-to-day offline life.Idaho in particular seems to be a hotbed of blind folks who expect the sighted world to cater to their every need, regardless of whether or not they can actually do things for themselves. Then again thats what often happens when folks join the NFB and become indoctrinated into its extremist idiology.URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=172131#p172131 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com http://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: [Audiogames-reflector] Training Centers
Re: Training Centers that sort of institutionalized living for blind people does sound a little scary really, rather too much like an extention of specialized schools, especially if you dont actually take care of things like cooking yourself. Generally in Britain there are three specific sorts of accommodation where disabled people are concerned.There are flats that some counsels have and give to disabled or eldily residents as a priority. These are perfectly ordinary flats, but due to say proximity to the city the counsel will considder them first for people with mobility issues. Funnily enough I live in one of these, which is a lot better than say being on some housing estate or in a counsel house miles from anywhere, however of the four flats in my building only one resident is actually eldily, and none accept me have a disability, indeed my now very nice downstairs neighbor is in her late 40s, and there is no actual institutionalized practice such as co mmunal meals or what not. Some flats can have a hook up secure call button to the counsels care system, say if someone was liable to illness or having an accident, but mine doesnt.There are then what are called assisted living complexes for eldily people. The best way to describe this is almost like halls of residents for the eldily, so people have their own rooms with communal kitchins and laundry areas, and there are general staff who do cleaning, however people are pretty free to come and go and socialize as needed.Ive never heard of something like this for disabled people though. There are then of course full on old folks homes where people actually get constant care as needed. While there are some of these for people with really severe learning disabilities, Ive never heard of anything for disabled people who have normal living skills, then again sinse I always wanted to live on my own anyway I never really looked into th ings more.As I said, I can see the logic of some sort of shelted accommodation for people who cant take care of themselves, but I dont see how itd be helpful if your blind, indeed it sounds like it would just magnify all the major problems that specialist schools create.URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=172096#p172096 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com http://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: [Audiogames-reflector] Training Centers
Re: Training Centers Ive heard about the high rate of institutionalizing in Illinois. Its a shame, really, but it makes sense. I think its because its one of the few states that actually has an apartment complex specifically for the blind, and, if you live there, you dont even have kitchen appliances in your apartment. You have to eat cafeteria food that they provide, from what I understand. Then again, supposedly they work with you on vocational or educational goals, so I dont know what to think. I feel that if a person is elderly, or has multiple disabilities, such a place may be appropriate for them, but the person I know who lives there is intelligent and well-spoken.URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=172080#p172080 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com http://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: [Audiogames-reflector] Training Centers
Re: Training Centers that sort of institutionalized living for blind people does sound a little scary really, rather too much like an extention of specialized schools, especially if you dont actually take care of things like cooking yourself. Generally in Britain there are three specific sorts of accommodation where disabled people are concerned.There are flats that some counsels have and give to disabled or eldily residents as a priority. These are perfectly ordinary flats, but due to say proximity to the city the counsel will considder them first for people with mobility issues. Funnily enough I live in one of these, which is a lot better than say being on some housing estate or in a counsel house miles from anywhere, however of the four flats in my building only one resident is actually eldily, indeed my now very nice downstairs neighbor is in her late 40s, and there is no actual institutionalized practice such as communal meals or what not. Some flats can have a hook up secure call button to the counsels care system, say if someone was liable to illness or having an accident, but mine doesnt.There are then what are called assisted living complexes for eldily people. The best way to describe this is almost like halls of residents for the eldily, so people have their own rooms with communal kitchins and laundry areas, and there are general staff who do cleaning, however people are pretty free to come and go and socialize as needed.Ive never heard of something like this for disabled people though. There are then of course full on old folks homes where people actually get constant care as needed. While there are some of these for people with really severe learning disabilities, Ive never heard of anything for disabled people who have normal living skills, then again sinse I always wanted to live on my own anyway I never really looked into things more.As I said, I can see the logic of some sort of shelted accommodation for people who cant take care of themselves, but I dont see how itd be helpful if your blind, indeed it sounds like it would just magnify all the major problems that specialist schools create.URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=172096#p172096 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com http://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: [Audiogames-reflector] Training Centers
Re: Training Centers Hi everyone. This topic about training centers, OM instruction and such has gotten me curious about something. I guess I actually have 2 questions here. First of all, for those of you who have been denied formal OM instruction by your respective state VR agencies, what if anything did/could you do about it? If any of you have, like me, gone to your state Client Assistance Program, what if anything did they tell you? My other question has to do more with the training centers. How is orientation and mobility approached and what is structured discovery all about. Somebody on another forum emailed me privately to try and explain it to me, but the document was inaccessible. I know that there are OM instructors out there who are visually impaired to one degree or another. Im not going to give my opinion on this, but what I want to know is what method or methods of instruction they use with their students?URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=171470#p171470 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com http://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: [Audiogames-reflector] Training Centers
Re: Training Centers Well I cant say anything about agencies in the Us, but on the instructional point as a general rule, Ive generally found myself the more flexible an instructor is to teaching something and the less they are bound by automatically applying one technique or standard and are prepared to work with students individual strengths and ways of learning, the better they are. Ive mentioned for example the woman who thought I was the spawn of satan for not step counting and using landmark memorization instead.I dont know how much this helps with choosing an institution, but this is why I personally would recommend seeing a place for yourself and picking up on how reasonable the staff were, rather than trying to go off their training materials. or idiology.URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=171474#p171474 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com http://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: [Audiogames-reflector] Training Centers
Re: Training Centers Hi everyone. This topic about training centers, OM instruction and such has gotten me curious about something. I guess I actually have 2 questions here. First of all, for those of you who have been denied formal OM instruction by your respective state VR agencies, what if anything did/could you do about it? If any of you have, like me, gone to your state Client Assistance Program, what if anything did they tell you? My other question has to do more with the training centers. How is orientation and mobility approached and what is structured discovery all about. Somebody on another forum emailed me privately to try and explain it, but the document was inaccessible. I know that there are OM instructors out there who are visually impaired to one degree or another. Im not going to give my opinion on this one way or the other, but what I want to know is what method or methods of instruction they use with their students?URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=171470#p171470 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com http://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: [Audiogames-reflector] Training Centers
Re: Training Centers @jjgeek, Im not sure on your situation, but to be brutally honest it sounds like you perhaps should not being as reliant on sighted institutions and assistance, or to look at getting some training to be so. Specialist taxi services are okay, however it sounds like the American ones have the same problems as those in the Uk, namely the amount of booking in advances negates any conveenience, which is why sorting some sort of public transport is worth doing. Im a little surprised youve been told you cant take trains due to balance, sinse I know people who actually have severe walking problems who regularly use trains, they just make dam sure to sit down and to book assistance at the station if necessary. Of course I dont know the situation in the Us, but that does surprise me rather, likewise the idea of having a tutor as a permenant cook. I cant speak of any of the programs or qualific ations you mention, but Im not sure I like the sound of that sort of situation. and if your colidge refuses to give you time for blindness bullshit well point out that they are reasponable for your wellfare so if you have an accident due to lack of training they are dam well liable and you will sue them. Health and safety may be irritating in many situations, but there are some occasions you can turn it to your advantage. @Cae, before teaching mobility, tech or anything else, considder your own position. You need to get the training skills and have experiences before you try teaching others, even if it were possible to get the qualification in question. I cant speak on the career front generally, but from what youve said I do wonder if blind education is really the best choice for you at this point.@Bryan, well that is another difference between Us and Uk police. In the Uk whatever th e force thought themselves, frankly any police officer who shot a dog without provocation would have the book thrown at them, sinse there are various organizations specifcially responsable for keeping the police in line, and thats even if the dogs owner didnt take the police to court (which they likely would do). My brother often says that his job when defending a criminal isnt to get the criminal off the charges, but to make sure the police have done their! job properly in catching the criminal in the first placel.URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=167798#p167798 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com http://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: [Audiogames-reflector] Training Centers
Re: Training Centers Lol I never really thought of calling it joke/rehab, but I like that! So true too! @Dark: Point well taken. Im not in the least bit upset by this, but Id just like to offer up a bit of an explanation of my living situation. Back in late 2002 my parents and I heard about a nonprofit organization that was getting started called Center for Independent Futures. The co-founders of CIF were quite frustrated with the sheer lack of services for people with disabilities offered by our state. All of the co-founders have family members with disabilities. Each participant and resident of CIF has life-skills tutors, who work with us on various daily-living skills. This is based on an Independent Living Readiness Inventory, and mine was conducted at my parents house. I was basically given various emergency situations during one part of the inventory, and asked how I would respond to these situations. They also assessed some of my other skills, such as traveling inside the hous e and finding things. I cant remember all the exact details, but I think you get the basic idea. The schedules for these tutors are set by the individuals and their families or other caregivers, and there is generally no government intervention whatsoever. A bit of background on the state of Illinois itself: The state institutionalizes people with disabilities at a very high rate, and the co-founders of CIF wanted to separate themselves and offer up a plan which would give individuals more choices in terms of how their lives would be run. I hope Ive explained this well enough. My parents and I sat down with my rehab counselor at the time and asked him for some formal OM instruction, because we werent sure yet what my tutor and I would be working on or how much time wed be spending together. We hadnt even met the tutor yet. That was to be done later. At the time my joke/rehab counselor agreed to put in a request for some formal OM instruction. However, as we soon found out that formal instruction was not to be. These tutors have since tried working on some of those skills with me, but their schedules just dont allow them to focus on the in-depth training that I need. In my opinion the state of Illinois--and other states with this kind of lousy track record for that matter--should really be ashamed of themselves for not doing anything to better equip people with disabilities with the tools and training needed for a full life. Anyone who wants to learn more, check out http://www.independentfutures.com . The website is not bad in terms of accessibility, but here again state funding does not allow for many improvements.URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=167830#p167830 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com http://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: [Audiogames-reflector] Training Centers
Re: Training Centers Well jjgeek, Im glad you didnt take my comment as overly crytical, I realize rereading it now it could be read the wrong way, particularly because I confess I do tend to have a prejudice against those institutionalized, closed minded blind people who refuse to try anything for themselves, constantly expect sighted people to be at their beck and call, and do not associate or even want to acknolidge anyone who isnt isnt in the same little blind world as them, indeed usually such people barely know anyone other than the friends they met a specialized school or other blind only events.I understand lack of training is a contributing factor, particularly if illinois is so bent on institutions, however there is also a lot to be said for just trying something and understanding you might cock up. for example, you mention travel within the house well, inside buildings are mostly far easie r to navigate than outside since your not liable to fall down a hole or hit , the worst you can do is fall over a footstool or kick an old pizza box or the like, and these are organizational issues that are relatively easy to work out with housemates etc. Its also a good place to work on basic orienteering skills, for example these days if Im staying at a hotel and my room is just one on a long corridor, I stick an elastic band on the door handle (when I used to have a pony tale I used my hairbands), which is very handy when you have to go off and find the loo or the like.You will get lost, you will walk into stuff, but there is no training that will absolutely guarantee such things wont happe (even a guide dog isnt a guarantee, for all its about the best option), however its often just a matter of doing things, knowing things go wrong and not panicking when they do and realizing you need to just carry on regardless , then understanding what you did wrong and going on the next time, just the same way I bet youve burnt yourself when pouring hot water at least once, but it was no big deal.URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=167838#p167838 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com http://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: [Audiogames-reflector] Training Centers
Re: Training Centers Ive been using the term Joke Rehab for quite a few years now since it pretty much describes most suc agencies Ive observed. Even those individual counselors who actually care what their clients want to do and would actually be willing to help them try to get there are usually not free to do so, particularly if the clients ambitions fall outside the figurative small boxes the organizations at large consider acceptable careers for blind folks.URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=167881#p167881 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com http://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: [Audiogames-reflector] Training Centers
Re: Training Centers My DSB counselor brought up a good point when I mentioned that Im probably switching from training centers to college: the 5 months between now and the start of the next term.Unfortunately, the DST program at WSB doesnt open to new clients again until June, so it seems Ill need to find something else to do until August. This should worry me more than it does, since being stuck in the same situation as last year for 5 months doesnt sound like much fun.URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=167893#p167893 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com http://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: [Audiogames-reflector] Training Centers
Re: Training Centers @DarkAmericans and firearms boils down to one simple thing. Distrust. Distrust in the government and distrust in each other. Whether this is justified is another discussion but where the American and European mindset seems to differ fundamentally is the trust we put in our governing bodies. If you fear repression and unjust treatment down to persecution then you are obviously inclined to have firearms for defending yourself. If you furthermore cant trust the government to handle crime, revolts and other similar things then you are downright required to have guns to ensure this yourself should the need arise. This is also the historic context you were talking about. While all of these reasons may have existed in the centuries behind us the question should be asked if there is still a need for it and whether it causes more harm than good nowadays. For me the answer is clear and I think this second amendment shows how uncivilized this land of the free actually is in these modern times.URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=167670#p167670 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com http://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: [Audiogames-reflector] Training Centers
Re: Training Centers @Blackbird, interesting. I wouldnt directly say in the Uk people trust the government, indeed confidence in the government and even in the electoral process has been dropping extensively, especially over the last 10-20 years between the gulf war, closure of a lot of British industry, unemployment issues and pretty extensive shenanigans with Europe. heck, were even at a stage where Scotland is seriously considdering becoming a literally independent country with its own government and boarder. However, that lack of confidence in the over all process of government and politicians wouldnt really translate automatically into wanting to shoot people or fearing that the government was some sort of evil mob who stole from people. I wonder if this is also related to the different attitudes Americans and the Uk have to centralized services. Here, people are aware their taxes pay for things like health care, transport, road repare, the police, the army etc, and while nobody likes taxes, its pretty obvious why they are there, indeed you get a good reminder everytime a fire engine or ambulance goes past. This isnt to say everyone is %100 happy with the way government spends taxes, indeed rows about the bennifit system, unemployment, tuition fees etc are pretty common on the British news, but nobody would say why should I pay taxes to suppor someone else who doesnt have the money to pay for themselvesBut often Ive noticed the American media protraying taxes as some sort of theft by which the government takes money from ahrd working people and distributes it to less hard working people. Indeed, I confess I found what I saw of the massive arguement of president Obamas proposed health care down right loopy! This is likely part of the difference in att itude you mention, though i hadnt associated w it with the American obsession about owning fire arms before you mentioned it. Another point in the Uk, is that there are still a lot of places where the police are very well respected, not just as people keeping the peace, but as generally helpful members of the community who are there to solve problems.For example, the other day I saw a homeless fellow who seemed to have some sort of mental illness. Sinse it was extremely cold and very wet, and likely to be very dangerous for anyone sleeping on the streets, I phoned the police and asked if theyd check if that chap was okay, which is something else they do. Heck on one occasion I was walking around a bend ain the road and I had a police carpull up and ask me if I! was alright being that theyd seen me pass the same security camera twice and wondered if I had got lost (actually I was just walking up to a ped estrian crossing then back down again, but I did aprpeciate they took the time. This of course varies according to the force, and according to the community. The north east where I have my flat is still a place where the police are treated as fairly respectable, and where the police will just be generally helpful, however nottingham where my parents live is a right hole, and the police dont aide the situation. However I do sometimes wonder if there is a very different attitude to the police in the two countries as well, which might also contribute to the fire arms thing too. Ooopse! sorry this has gone ot, but so it goes.URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=167686#p167686 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com http://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: [Audiogames-reflector] Training Centers
Re: Training Centers Thought Id throw in my 2 cents here, for what its worth. I, too, have not faired too well as of late when it comes to formal orientationmobility instruction. Apparently the voc/rehab agency here in the Land of Lincoln thinks that one would need a good paying job in order to receive any formal OM instruction from them. A few years ago I did get an OM instructor out here, but she was only able to give me a few lessons which--now that Ive had time to think things through--were not very effective. I ended up going through my states Client Assistance Program in order to get her out here. The CAP representative assigned to me was actually very sympathetic and she understood where I was coming from. But other than that, I have had no formal OM instruction for several years. In fact I believe the last instructor who worked with me, prior to a few years ago, was when I attended a local community college not long after graduating high school. I graduated high school in 1994, so this was probably in about 1996. That instructor was quite good, but he was only able to work with me briefly. So now whenever I need to get somewhere that isnt within walking distance of my building and that requires a street crossing, I take ADA paratransit. The paratransit service here has greatly improved from what it used to be, but still it is not perfect. Although the hours for the reservation lines have been extended, they are still only taken just 1 day in advance and it can get rather difficult to secure a trip reservation. The service has limited hours on weekends, and there are frequently activities which I want to attend outside my building. A lot of times nobody will be available to drive me or their schedules are so tight that it is a bit inconvenient for them. Ive been told I cant take the trains by myself due to balance issues. This hasnt happened much thus far, but occasionally Ive had drivers who got a bit lost taking me to my destinations. Nevermind that I lack the skills to tell them how to get unlost. Nobody seems to be too concerned about that except for yours truly. I have a cell phone and take it with me on these paratransit trips in the unlikely event that I do get dropped off at a wrong location. I do have a life-skills tutor who has gone places with me, but he also works with others in my building. Plus he has another job now in addition to this one, and his truck bit the bullet not long ago. Another area in which Ive had absolutely no formal instruction is cooking, so my tutor does that for me. Luckily he is a great cook and doesnt mind doing it, but the VR agency has offered little if any assistance in this regard. I believe Ive mentioned that funding here in Illinois is sorely lacking, and nothing is being done about it.scotf2012 wrote:For right now, all I really need out of a blindness center is cane travel/mobility, and lots of it. I seriously would be content waking up and spending all day, every day, for a few months, just working on mobility cane travel, since my skills are seriously that bad. A combination of bad instructors for a few years, followed by no instruction for a few years, followed by more bad instruction leaves me in a pretty bad place. I have no idea how, for instance, public transportation works around here, or anywhere, for that matter. Dont ask me how to cross a street safely, because I dont know. As you can tell, serious issues, and I have no idea what to do about it.I figured a center could also help me with other blindness skills, too, like general stuff to do around your house, cooking, etc. Since I already know braille inside and out, I figured I could learn print – that might prove useful. But I have no idea what center to go to, Id prefer something for as long as possible, like the 9-month NFB ones...But as you say, theres no real information. And nobody around here even listens to what I have to say. Interrupt college for some blindness bullshit? No way! Even though this blindness bullshit as they call it is really damn important and useful.URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=167722#p167722 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com http://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: [Audiogames-reflector] Training Centers
Re: Training Centers Thought Id throw in my 2 cents here, for what its worth. I, too, have not faired too well as of late when it comes to formal orientationmobility instruction. Apparently the voc/rehab agency here in the Land of Lincoln thinks that one would need a good paying job in order to receive any formal OM instruction from them. A few years ago I did get an OM instructor out here, but she was only able to give me a few lessons which--now that Ive had time to think things through--were not very effective. I ended up going through my states Client Assistance Program in order to get her out here. The CAP representative assigned to me was actually very sympathetic and she understood where I was coming from. But other than that, I have had no formal OM instruction for several years. In fact the last instructor who worked with me, prior to a few years ago, was when I attended a local community college not long after graduating high school. I graduated high school in 1994, so this was probably in about 1996. That instructor was quite good, but he was only able to work with me briefly. So now whenever I need to get somewhere that isnt within walking distance of my building and that requires a street crossing, I take ADA paratransit. The paratransit service here has greatly improved from what it used to be, but still it is not perfect. Although the hours for the reservation lines have been extended, they are still only taken just 1 day in advance and it can get rather difficult to secure a trip reservation. The service has limited hours on weekends, and there are frequently activities which I want to attend outside my building. A lot of times nobody will be available to drive me or their schedules are so tight that it is a bit inconvenient for them. Ive been told I cant take the trains by myself due to balance issues. This hasnt happened much thus far, but occasionally Ive had drivers who got a bit lost taking me to my destinations. Nevermind that I lack the skills to tell them how to get unlost. Nobody seems to be too concerned about that except for yours truly. I have a cell phone and take it with me on these paratransit trips in the unlikely event that I do get dropped off at a wrong location. I do have a life-skills tutor who has gone places with me, but he also works with others in my building. Plus he has another job now in addition to this one, and his truck bit the bullet not long ago. Another area in which Ive had little to absolutely no formal instruction is cooking, so my tutor does that for me. Luckily he is a great cook and doesnt mind doing it, but the VR agency has offered little if any assistance in this regard. I have a George Foreman grill complete with Braille manual and I used that a lot when I lived downstairs in this building. But my roommate down there always took up almost all the counter space with his stuff, and the grill and accompanying manual are now back at my parents house. I believe Ive mentioned that funding here in Illinois is sorely lacking, and nothing is being done about it.scotf2012 wrote:For right now, all I really need out of a blindness center is cane travel/mobility, and lots of it. I seriously would be content waking up and spending all day, every day, for a few months, just working on mobility cane travel, since my skills are seriously that bad. A combination of bad instructors for a few years, followed by no instruction for a few years, followed by more bad instruction leaves me in a pretty bad place. I have no idea how, for instance, public transportation works around here, or anywhere, for that matter. Dont ask me how to cross a street safely, because I dont know. As you can tell, serious issues, and I have no idea what to do about it.I figured a center could also help me with other blindness skills, too, like general stuff to do around your house, cooking, etc. Since I already know braille inside and out, I figured I could learn print – that might prove useful. But I have no idea what center to go to, Id prefer something for as long as possible, like the 9-month NFB ones...But as you say, theres no real information. And nobody around here even listens to what I have to say. Interrupt college for some blindness bullshit? No way! Even though this blindness bullshit as they call it is really damn important and useful.URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=167722#p167722 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com http://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: [Audiogames-reflector] Training Centers
Re: Training Centers Well put. Regarding those liquid-level indicators, I have one. My mom ordered it when I was still living with my parents, and it is very good although I think it needs a new battery one of these years. I honestly dont use it much anymore though, since I have good sensitivity in my fingers and can just judge liquids that way when pouring them or getting water directly from the sink. With regards to technology training, I did have a little bit of formal training several years ago and it was very good. But I have since just taught myself various things. I just got a Mac Book Air with Voiceover, and have been utilizing the online resources that are out there such as Apple Vis and the Serotalk Podcast Network. Blind Cool Tech was a very good one too, but it doesnt seem to be active anymore. In addition, Ive been helping a sister out with her Mac Book Air. She is also a Voiceover user. Our local Apple store has been great too, but it is obviously crowded with shoppers and therefore the training offered is probably not ideal. But aside from that, there is nothing. The Hadley School for the Blind is an excellent resource, but they currently dont have any Apple training available.Dark wrote:Wel Cae, specialist schools as you know I have experiences ofand while theoretically I suppose there could be some good ones, both my own experiences and the after effects Ive noticed on others I know have been pretty dire, so I agree with you on those. while I dont like the sound of the Nfbs attitude or methodology, I equally cant say anything concrete beyond that having had no direct experience of the organization itself, ditto with the wsb people you mention. Regarding training however, I personally would recommend not planning on being entirely dependent upon sighted minians sinse A, as you said its hard to find people, and B, unless your directly paying people for the the job you have no reasonable control over their working schedule or format without being a git.Its sort of the difference between ordering a taxi to come at a time you! want, and getting a lift from a friend with a car, who is on their own schedule, might turn up whenever etc. Plus of course, I personally always feel if I am asking someone to do things for me out of the goodness of their heart simply because I have disfunctional eyeballs, I am being a bad friend and presuming upon their good will.this is why even if I need a job doing by a sighted person and I employ a friend to do it, I will always pay them, indeed this weekend having just bought the Ds9 box set, I will ask my friend who I have regularly employed as a research assistant to read the dvds for me so I can label them with my penfriend. We will have a chat, and itll be really nice to see her, she has even stated she wouldnt mind doing the job for nothing, but in order that A, I feel I can ask her without being a git, and B, that I can ask her precisely how I want things doing on my terms, I insist upon paying her slightly over minimum wage rate.I totally agree trying things is the best way, however Regarding cooking, kevla gloves are a good thing to have. Being gloves you lose no manual dexterity, but being kevla there is literally no chance of you burning your hands even if you directly touch the sides of the hot oven or the top rings, which is very handy for confidence. I would also suggest you get a liquid level indicator if you dont have one already to get used to pouring hot liquids and using the kettle even if you decide you can live without it later on. Your suggestion of getting a basic intro to things then trying to expand yourself is a good one. Just this week I had my mum stand behind me while I experimented with a wok, sinse Id like to start doing stir fry. I dont know about the Us, but in the Uk there are various local blind organizations for each county, and usually these have a person (usually a blind person), working for them whos express job is to show basic skills or technology to people. Obviously these vary according to the individual and how good their personal teaching skills and ability to be flexible are, but still if your looking for a basic intro to something I wonder if something like that is available. When I was looking into getting an Iphone, I very much wanted to try one first, and to have some hands on advice from someone who used vo. Id heard various stories, both from people who loved Vo and from people who couldnt live with the touch screen, and because buying an Iphone would require a big sack of cash, I wanted to be certain I knew what I was getting and could be sure Id be able to use the thing. I arranged a demo from the local soceity for the blind in Nottingham, and got a guy who was actually very good, who basically just sat with me for an hour while I played with his Iphone, answering my questions, which helped a lot. As I said, I dont know if that sort of basic, individual, one off stuff is available in the us, but if
Re: [Audiogames-reflector] Training Centers
Re: Training Centers This is really starting to give me that Screw it, Ill do it myself feeling. Except Im not good enough to do that at this point. And Im not really sociable enough / good enough at explaining things to take up the teaching people mobility role. (See: my horribly confusing games for examples of why Id make a terrible mobility instructor. )I did have a conversation with the head of the DST program at WSB yesterday. I dont think he and I would get along over the internet, but in person hes quite possibly the most awesome individual within a 5 mile radius. Quick example: I woke up yesterday to find a newly activated Barracuda filter blocking access to Audiogames.net. Lng befre I had the chance to bring it up, he was talking about how they just set it up in a rush, using the default settings, and how the very next thing he intended to do was to go update it, specifically to unblock gaming sites (He actually seemed more pissed about those being blocked than I was).He also got hired back when those horror stories I linked in the first post were clear symptoms of a woefully out-of-touch system. Being that he came from the real world, he immediately out-competed the existing program into oblivion. He actually sounds like a professional tech guy, and while I dont necessarily see any connection between him and other aspects of WSB, I will say I havent encountered a single cockroach or piece of rodent dung in the month that Ive been here, and have heard no rumors of sexual harassment or suicide attempts (but... ah... that last one is a bit complicated, isnt it?).Right now, my real questions are: is it possible to fit the entire DST program into the time between now and mid August, and if so, should I? My main reason is more that I dont want to just sit at hom e (read: probably at my parents) for the next 5 months.URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=167776#p167776 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com http://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: [Audiogames-reflector] Training Centers
Re: Training Centers Well, would any of the vocational programs they offer be of any use to you?In other words, would it be beneficial to you at all to get a certificate in something, maybe the desktop technician program, just to say that you have a certificate?Normally, I wouldnt go along with that type of thinking...The whole, its better to have a degree in something than nothing. But since youre already there, it may not hurt to try to make the best of it.Im sorry that you didnt end up finding what you thought you would at WSB. On the other hand, Im slightly encouraged to hear that the building isnt completely unsanitary, because thats what I had always heard. I guess all the people who were publishing horror stories on the internet finally got to them, enough so that they would make some changes.URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=16#p16 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com http://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: [Audiogames-reflector] Training Centers
Re: Training Centers Yeah. I plan on asking today if I can get through the DST program and still go back to school in August (while a degree would be great, there are many other things I could get from there that are harder to get elsewhere. Not just minions, but its easier to obtain minions at college, too.) If Ive got time, might as well use it.Based on yesterdays conversation, the horror stories were pretty accurate for their time. While Im still in this sticky spot where Im not getting much out of WSB, I am glad to see theyve improved their worst qualities.(Speaking of using time, Ive spent the past 3 hours on the internet. Should probably try to work out the details on applying for an NFB scholarship. Then... I dunno, work on my current game, or something. I use the WSB laundry room as programming space: Wi-Fi doesnt reach there.)URL: http://forum.audiogames.n et/viewtopic.php?pid=167787#p167787 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com http://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: [Audiogames-reflector] Training Centers
Re: Training Centers Dark, the issue over firearms is just one of many areas where you guys over in England and we Americans differ. As you may know the second amendment to the United States Constitution grants the right to own and bare arms to any American irrespective of age, race, or disability. There are of course some exceptions to that right such as if someone has been convicted of a crime or that the person is believed to be a danger to themselves or others their rights are revoked by a court of law. However, by and large it is legal for me to strap on a SW .38 or a colt .45 and walk down Main Street of any U.S. city with a firearm strapped on my hip for self-protection. While every American reserves that basic right or freedom most dont do it these days and dont see a need to go around armed to the teeth.Ironically, the main reason that particular amendment came about has to do with issues that arose prior to the American Revolution. Situations such as the Boston Massac re really made Americans distrustful of governments, and before they ratified the U.S. Constitution they demanded the right to protect themselves from the government and others by having the right to own and bare firearms. So its been that way ever since with a few minor changes such as banning certain firearms such as machine guns, submachine guns, etc which was necessary given that during the 20s and 30s the gangsters were raising hell with those kinds of firearms and the government had to take them away. However, by and large basic firearm ownership and use is permitted here in the States.Turtlepower17, on the issue of sleep shades I do agree with you that it all should be about choice. While I see where the NFB etc are coming from I dont think they should just force their use on anyone and everyone who walks in the door. It should be optional and up to the individual client to decide if they think it would help them or not.As for your feelin gs about the NFB and their points of views I agree with you. Ive never really agreed with their beliefs or official position on a lot of blindness related subjects, but I think I know where they are coming from. Like a lot of institutions they have adopted one and only one official position on various subjects and it is difficult to change their minds on anything regardless if that position is good or bad.The problem with the people you mentioned is they were probably mentally and emotionally weak. As such as soon as the NFB started in with their spiel they ate it up, accepted it , and did what any person does when they dont really have a firm opinion of their own. I myself am pretty hard headed about things, and if I hear something I dont agree with I probably say whatever and blow it off. Not everyone can just do that though.URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic. php?pid=167436#p167436 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com http://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: [Audiogames-reflector] Training Centers
Re: Training Centers @Tom, while I have always understood that the fire arms thing in the states had some historical basis, albeit I wasnt %100 what that basis was, i confess it has always seemed really loopy to me that anyone on the street could be legally carrying a gun, and that some Americans seem to think its not just natural but necessary! to me that sort of goes in the same category as having no laws about speed limits on cars. Yes, there are parts of the world it happens, and undoubtedly most people are okay and responsable with it, but its not really a society Id feel quite as safe living in on a day to day basis sinse not everyone is either okay or responsable. It also surprises me sometimes that American media protrays the British police as lacking force or never carrying guns. For example I saw that episode f of futurama the other day in which the professor accidently changes time so America never gained i ndependence from Britain. Apart from some very atrocious accents, there were vrious jokes about Britain. One was that Bender, Fry and co were running away from the police who then said come out with your hands up, we cant shoot you because we dont carry guns which is actually completely untrue sinse the police are! licensed to carry guns and shoot criminals if the situation requires it. Indeed, my brother told me once about an amusing loop hole there used to be in British law, which literally said A fire arm may only be carried in a public place by a professional for the extermination of a noxious animal or a police officer in execution of their duty Apparently someone did! actually try to claime in court that sinse they intended to shoot a police officer with their gun, they werent doing something against the law .Getting back to training centers, what you said regarding a rigid approach to training is my principle issue with what Ive heard of the NFb, and what I object to. Ive met too many blind people over here who have been to specialist schools or recieved rnib training nd because they werent quite as stubborn as myself, ended up falling for the idea that there was one, and only one way of doing things. in fairness the Nfbs genral attitude seems far more positive than that of theRnib, however Im not sure on their practical teaching methods and how much room for different styles of learning or ways of doing things they allow particularly with the sleep shades, sinse while I certainly can see cases where they would be helpful, eg, people with degenerative conditions, I can see others where they would be the opposite, as in fact they would be for me. This is also why I wonder if they were developed expressly with totally blind people in mind. as I said I did once know someone who actually thought that pouring hot liquids without a liquid level indicator was some highly dangerous process and misstrusted anyone who was blind and didnt use one.URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=167445#p167445 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com http://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: [Audiogames-reflector] Training Centers
Re: Training Centers @Tom, as I said I have no problem with the use of the sleep shades for people with variable vision, Ive even met an instructor who did something similar, (though she used a cloth blindfold and got the permission of the girl in question first). That is really my issue. the nfb seems to use a one size fits all approach when in many cases it doesnt. Ive met more than a few people with more vision than me who have been harmed by training, convinced that there vision is of no value. Ive met people for example with more vision than me, who would be interested in playing computer games,but when i detail some of the methods Ive always used to play graphical games, they respond with Im blind, my vision isnt of any use despite the fact that they could likely do more than me than me. This is my issue with a lot Ive heard of the Nfb, it seems to be a very rigit trai ning method which convinces people of doing things one and only one way. The arguement well you can go somewhere else and it is your choice doesnt appeal at least for me. Ive mentioned before how in England the Rnib have one and only one mindset. There are alternatives available for training and buying devices, but most people are directed to the Rnib, told it is the only choice etc, I even knew one woman who once told me that if I didnt do things the rnibs way I would be a criminal.From the Nfb literature Ive seen, it appears that they are very much pushed people, and that their ethos is rather forceful to say the least. There literature for example as Turtlepower pointed out doesnt say We have a way of teaching independence, which might work for you, or might not, come and try Their literature and ethos seems much more dogmatic in nature. As has been said, so me blind people can be in a very vulernable position, and that sort of mental pressuring cannot be helpful. The best advocate for Vi independence I ever knew was a lady whos first principle was look at what the person needs first (she later wrote several papers on specialist education).This is my concern with nfb, the my way or the highway type of mentality, with people who are probably not in a position to take the highway or look at alternatives. Of course, it might be that I am incorrect. I am after all across the far side of the world, looking at this through second hand medium, i just have had far too many bad experiences with bad thinking around blind people, and seen the result of it on peoples lives to not state my thoughts on this. If in fact the NFb is less unbending than this, and would for example allow someone with stable vision to use it when needed, then fair enough, it just seems that isnt the case from the evidence Ive gathered, though as I said that might be incorrect which is indeed why my personal first advice would be to go and look at one of their centers first hand, - which indeed would be what Id do if I was in the position of considdering one of their courses myself.URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=167216#p167216 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com http://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: [Audiogames-reflector] Training Centers
Re: Training Centers Thinking about it further, Im not sure theres much of an advantage to a 6 month training program when just deliberately getting lost (possibly with an iPhone and Blindsquare as backup) seems an efficient way to learn a place.If I could just get someone I trust (thats the hardest part) to do the random drop thing, Im not sure itd be any harder than if the NFB did it.(I still have to wonder, though. Given good weather/a compass, and a GPS or Blindsquare, orienting ones self should be roughly equivalent to that of a sighted person getting lost at random. Accessible GPS-type things are relatively new, though. How did they do it before?)Im still worried about cleaning and pest control, though. A RAID bomb and lots of scrubbing doesnt quite seem sufficient, assuming Id even know where to aim those.URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopi c.php?pid=167258#p167258 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com http://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: [Audiogames-reflector] Training Centers
Re: Training Centers @Cae, regarding mobility, its not really a matter of random drops specifically, or of any single magic formula. Ive never actually done random drops myself, though I have had occasions where someone would take me off an established route and get me to find it again via logic. Its more a matter of finding techniques that you yourself can use, and then practicing them enough so that you can apply them in different situations. I would also disagree that using a satnav gives equality of placement, sinse sighted people have far more markers than just street names etc. It can definitely help (one reason why Im goin to be buying blind square myself as soon as Ive sat down and read their instructo instructions), but its not a be all and end all. As I said, there is no magic solution, its just a matter of finding something that works then practicing. REgarding cleaning and infestation, well to be honest in Britain at least prevention is better than cure, though I know this isnt the same in other parts of the world.Over here the best way to avoid bugs is simply to nnever let your home get into into a state where you would be likely to have them. this involves using disinfectant, and other cleaning agents. I regularly do my kitchin, loo and bathroom with diluted bleache and detox. I also have a disinfectant Ive used on my kitchin floor (the only floor that is uncarpeted). and some dust stuff as well for my various shelves, (though that doesnt need doing as often).For the carpets, well hoovering is the thing, though I confess that probably doesnt get done as often sinse of all household cleaning jobs that is my least favourite! . Generally though, all o f these things are just a matter of making sure you go over everything and cover all the space, which is easiest with a cloth and your hand, (another reason I dislike hoovering). Another major thing at least in Britain to make sure you dont get things like ants is simply cleaning up any spills. Back when I lived in Colidge, I kept a bottle of bleache under my sink specifically! to use on the surfaces if I happened to spill my coffee. I even got in an arguement over this with the management sinse they claimed it was a dangerous chemical, where as I told them to get lost. The joke was the colidge cleaners actually used to come and borrow my bleache sinse it was better than the anaemic stuff they were using .URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php? pid=167264#p167264 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com http://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: [Audiogames-reflector] Training Centers
Re: Training Centers But can Blindsquare help while walking? Thatsmy main question. As forthe NFB I also could never see myself attending one oftheir centers. Iveattended afew gatherings where their philosophy was preachhed withthe same rigidity that made organized religion so unappealing to me. Theres also the issue and yes Ive had this confirmed by many NFB members, of canes. The NFB forbids the use of folding canes or, at the very least, they did eight years ago, back when I was attending a training center run by the Idaho Commission for the Blind that, while not actually ru by the NFB, did have its fair share of NFB members and affiliates. The reason for this prohibition struck me as ridiculous to say the very least. Apparently all! those who use folding canes are merely attempting to hide their blindness. Im sorry, but thats complete and utter BS. Maybe some people do buy them with that bizarre hope, but I use them strictly for convenience, and this after tryin g many different options. Needless to say if Im going to go to a training center theyre damn well going to let me continue to use the travel aid that works best for me. Not only that but I didnt approve of the NFB frivelously blowing all that time and money on a supposed car for the blind.URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=167270#p167270 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com http://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: [Audiogames-reflector] Training Centers
Re: Training Centers I just thought of a few more things I wanted to say in my post last night.It would actually make a lot more sense to teach self-defense classes as a source of empowerment rather than wood shop. Why? Because almost anyone can benefit from gaining confidence in their ability to stay safe in the world, while much fewer will benefit from building a cabinet with their own two hands. I get that its probably supposed to make you feel proud of yourself, but I also think theres a darker undercurrent, too. The fact is, if youve just made this monster project, youre probably expected to brag about it to your friends and family. See? Just look at what blind people can do! What Id like to know is, how is someone supposed to take something like that home with them? What if they live in a studio apartment or are planning to move directly into a college dorm?Learning a martial art, or maybe even going through the Safe Without Sight program, w ould have a lot more benefits. I know that I, personally, would feel a lot better about myself if I had that kind of opportunity. Im not very physically imposing, plus Im female, and I grew up in the country. I have some experience living in a major city, but not enough to feel comfortable carrying my weight, if you know what I mean. If I knew I could kick someones ass if I needed to, maybe even learn how to use a knife, I would have a lot more confidence. I wouldnt really be interested in carrying a gun, but I wouldnt mind learning to shoot one, either. I know that doesnt really fall under the category of self-defense, but target shooting is another thing Ive heard of blind people doing successfully, and would be a lot more applicable in todays world than building stuff. I realize that people may have different motivations, and some will already be street smart, but still, I wish that, in general, the structured discovery method allow ed for any hint of change.To be fair, though, Ive never heard of any training center offering self-defense training, probably because if something went wrong, they would be afraid of getting sued.URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=167300#p167300 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com http://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: [Audiogames-reflector] Training Centers
Re: Training Centers To be fair I actually did enjoy the woodshop class I took but then again that could have been because my dad often let me help with woodworking projects at home. But I do agree that it should be a matter of individual choice since not every person is going to have the interest in woodworking that I developed or the room to store whatever they build. The idea of a self-defense class definitely makes excellent sense as a confidence booster.URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=167329#p167329 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com http://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: [Audiogames-reflector] Training Centers
Re: Training Centers Hi @turtlepower17Im going to start with post 63 and come back to your other post later. Unfortunately, I have a lot of housework that needs to get done tonight before family shows up tomorrow, and I spend a fair bit of time writing these posts.So couple quick things:At BLIND Inc. we did have self-defense classes from time to time. One of my students was even a third-degree black-belt, and she taught some pretty cool stuff. aside from that, we did bring in a Judo instructor to teach a few classes from time to time. At least right now, its not done on a consistent basis, but thats not to say that couldnt be the case in the future. The personal trainer I work with in the evenings, for example, would love to set up a group for blind people to learn self-defense, and she has asked me for help doing so.As for the shop projects, storing them, etc., I may not have been completely clear about what students do. The examples I gave are some of the larger ones, but Ive seen everything from nightstands to speaker stands to a dollhouse with hand-split cedar shingles. One student even made a wooden leg with an eight-ball for the ankle. He wears it from time to time.Students in wood shop get to pick their own projects; nothing is forced on them. Since they decide what they build, it can be as large or as small as they like. On one hand there is the 13-drawer dresser, but on the other is the oak communion set with hand-turned wooden vessels.Am I bragging a bit? Yeah, but thats because the projects were freakin cool!There is no dark undercurrent to bragging about your work. Its certainly not required for students to brag about their projects. Some keep them and some give them to family members. The number of students I saw who gave their projects to spouses/kids/parents was pretty astounding. I know the NFB is often perceived as being dogmatic and preachy. I think it even came up a few p osts ago. But dont jump too hard at the idea of being proud of an accomplishment. If I carved my own guitar, Id not only want to brag about it, but Id want to play it for people.Oh! I almost forgot!One of the instructors at BLIND Inc. has a pretty interesting set of guns, and he will occasionally take people out to Target shoot. We also took students shooting when I worked in Honolulu. You might remember a news story from a few years ago about an NFB member in Michigan who took students shooting and was fired for it.Personally, Im with you. Lets kick some [redacted]URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=167332#p167332 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com http://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: [Audiogames-reflector] Training Centers
Re: Training Centers ... You know, I remember Michigan being the one state where the blind can legally hunt without sighted assistance. Its curious that someone lost their job over exactly that exactly there. . . .URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=167337#p167337 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com http://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: [Audiogames-reflector] Training Centers
Re: Training Centers Hi everyone,Its late, and like turtlepower17 yesterday, Im fighting off a cold. Im also going on 3 hours of sleep, and I have to be up in another 5 hours for a meeting with India. I want to give everyones posts the time and attention they deserve, but I just dont have the energy to do it tonight.I especially want to address some things turtlepower17 said in her post about beliefs and philosophy, but that will sadly have to wait until tomorrow.URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=167354#p167354 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com http://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: [Audiogames-reflector] Training Centers
Re: Training Centers Interesting regarding shooting. In England the idea of any organization that wasnt itself a hunting club taking anyone shooting is litterally illegal irrispective of sight levels. Ive heard of blind people over here who do shoot, but they do it with a specific shooting club, with the clubs guns sinse in most cases the club have the permits. While there are licensed hunts, and individuals who are licensed, it is only on specific property designated for the purpose. Unless you were a police officer or a game keeper, private individuals would almost never own a gun in this country, so the idea of fire arms as self defense for anyone blind or not seems pretty insane to me.URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=167355#p167355 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com http://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: [Audiogames-reflector] Training Centers
Re: Training Centers At rstrunk: Sorry for my ranting, I see your much more level headed and aware than most NFB officials I have had the pleasure of talking to. My acultist comment was a little over the top, ill just put that on the table right now. But it would seem from the outside, that the NFB does indeed want to train lemmings, and I say this more of the individuals who have noted this in there stories of personal experiences at training centers. I personaly was very mainstreamed my whole life, only going to one local training center in my state for a month, which did help me brush up on some basic living skills. Believe me, I realize I am far from perfect, and could probably use more training, but it is difficult to stay positive when you hear of others not having the best quality NFB experience. Im sure if you poke around forums like this one for NFB topics, you will realize my point. I simply feel that blind people would be in the best situation if they attempted to integrate with the sighted world as much, and as soon as possible, so that we as a society will have one less area that devides us. I knew a blind woman who told me that going to schools for the blind until she was an adult was the worst thing she ever did, as only hanging around only blind people gave her a very limited view of the real world. Those schools and training centers did not give her the social skills that she needed to interact with sighted peers effectively, and she applauded my efforts at public school and beyond. Again, im not down on the NFB as a whole, I realize that people need training, but perhaps, there needs to be a new approach that includes society integration and preparation for harsher challenges like avoiding being stereotyped, and placed in a nice little box to be labeled by society.URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=167080#p167080 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com http://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: [Audiogames-reflector] Training Centers
Re: Training Centers @Arq, on the last intigration point I can agree, I have mentioned my own issues with specialist i education and those who have been through it. That being said, if the intention of the Nfb is for people to live in training centers completely and the training center to provide everything, then they would fulfill this model. If their intention is thata person goes for a training course for say a couple of months, then leaves to continue in their life, and has low to minimal contact with the nfb and other blind people from then on, then I dont see a problem. I am not sure how all pervading the nfb group or mindset is, not being in the same country or organization, but this is the crytical question to me. As I said, Ive seen far too many blind people who went to specialist schools or colidges, did courses (including independence training), then spend the rest of their lives sitting at home talking to those few friends they made in their specialist colidge filling out job applictions for a job they dont want, or if they get it wil have minimal impact on their life, friendships or indeed anything else.I can see the logic of teaching skills and mobility courses, heck I attended one myself at one point just for a week, (primarily becuase I knew the lady running it). and it is true that most people are less lucky than I am in terms of having one blind parent to learn things. The problem however is that several blind organizations and professionals I have encountered have had one and only one method of doing things, and if you dont adhere to that they fail you or deme that you will fail. I had one mobility instructor who told me I was not safe out on my own because I didnt step count and relied on landmarks. Similarly, I once knew a woman who had been convinced by her school that cooking without a liquid level indica tor was down right criminal. this is my concern with the nfb, especially with their black sleep shades moddality. I have some working vision, it will remain stable, therefore for me, why should! I take extra time to learn things without vision just because a given organization have a specific way of doing things that requires it. For example, i tell apart the tins in my cupboard by colour. did I not see colour I would not need to do this, however equally I type with two hands, if Id had one hand chopped off Id not need to do this either. While I can see the logic as a teaching tool for people who have recently lost their vision or who have a degenrative condition, even then I am certain forcing people to do things one way and one way only is legitimate. I have encountered people who have again been haarmed by this mentality in England, although nobody to my knolidge does it in quite an extreme way as the nfb. For instance, I have used my vision to play a lot of graphical mainstream games such as mario, yet Ive met people with more vision than me who state that they cannot do the same becase they cant see.The other thing that concerns me with the sleep shades thing is the iea that it is automaticaly better to have minimal vision than none. There are circumstances I actually choose! not to use a visual clue when I can use a tactile one, for example on stage while I could! see the center of the stage and judge positon relative to other people on stage, its far easier to just use a tactile line of tape up the center of the floor, so that I can concentrate on my performance, just as it is much easier to use my vision to tell red tins of beans from green tins of pees rather than labelling them with my penfriend or using different cupboard positionns. The sleep shades idea strikes me very much the same way as that I remember from a n ocasion in my boarding school in which all the boys were playing football with a ball with a ringing bell, but decided to make the game fair by making it four vs two, on the basis that the two people had some remaining vision, irrispective of the fact that three out of the four on the other side were a year older, far larger and faster and far more experienced football players, and the fact that the ball itself was dull red and contrasted horribly with the concrete we were playing on making this amazing visual advantage practically useless, (needless to say I think the game finished up 8 1). Id say personallyits up to each individual and his/her circumstances to determine what information is necessary in each situation and how to get it. Regarding the confidence from woodworking etc, I dont disagree that such confidence building needs to happen, my only personal issue is making them part of the course requir ements. One of the few Vi organizations I used to regularly meet was a group called guide dog holidays. As you would expect, they took a bunch of Vi people off somewhere in the world with sighted guides t do something. Their holidays ranged in difficulty (they had a class system), from basic stuff such as light t tourism and just sunning
Re: [Audiogames-reflector] Training Centers
Re: Training Centers @ArqmeisterI completely understand a good rant. I appreciate your apology.The situation you described for yourself is the ideal one. I myself received such good training growing up that I only went to a training center--not even an NFB one--for three months, and even then, the biggest reason I went was to have a Summer with my long-distance girlfriend. I also agree with your friend that going to schools for the blind can leave one pretty maladjusted when it comes to integrating into society.NFB centers, though, arent long-term stays. Training typically lasts 6 to 9 months to complete, and then the person gets back to his or her life. In the case of people born blind or those who went blind while young, this training usually happens immediately before or after college.By far, however, the lions share of students at NFB centers are those who went blind later in life and want to re-integrate into society. Perhaps they lost their sight in their 30
Re: [Audiogames-reflector] Training Centers
Re: Training Centers @DarkSorry for the double-posting, but given the amount you covered in your post, I want to address it separately.At first blush, Id say youre right about us agreeing to disagree. Both of us, Id imagine, can construct some pretty convincing arguments for our side of things and throw out some decent refutations of the others. I might suggest that, if you labeled your cans, you could cook in kitchens with varying degrees of light, or you could cook even during a power outage. You could respond that you have enough vision that varying light levels isnt an issue, and in the case of a power outage, you could use a torch. Im perfectly willing to avoid that back and forth if you are. If not, have at you, rogue! (cordially, of course)Let me suggest that learning to cook a giant meal can have a pretty real impact on life experiences. Everything from volunteering in soup kitchens or shelters to preparing a meal for a family holiday or ch urch function will require the ability to multi-task, develop an action plan, and work with lots of ingredients. I havent heard too many stories yet where people regretted the time they spent in the kitchen, up to and including the large meal. In fact, most people enjoy the large meal as a means of showing off just how much they learned to their peers.Wood shop, I think, is a good catch-all for confidence boosting, and it was probably chosen because of its perceived potential for danger. It says to students, Look. If you can safely use a band saw to cut a fraction of an inch off your board, then situation X isnt such a big deal after all, right? It would be nice if we had lots of different avenues like this, but the man power/resources just arent there. Its not a matter of forcing everyone to the best way of doing things; its choosing the option that affects the greatest number of people.Youre right, though, about it coming down to personal choice. I have personally seen many instances in which sleepshades helped people. You have likely heard numerous instances of them failing people. Luckily for both camps, there are lots of training options out there. I personally feel, based on my experience, that an NFB center provides the best possible experience for the highest amount of people, but I would be daft to suggest that it is the best for everyone.URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=167104#p167104 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com http://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: [Audiogames-reflector] Training Centers
Re: Training Centers rstrunk wrote:Im sorry for anyone who has a bad experience at a training center. Deciding to go for training is usually a pretty big step for people, so when it goes sour, it goes really, really sour. Ive heard my fair share of horror stories. Keep in mind, though, how these things tend to shake out. Someone goes to a center and has a bad experience. They come to a forum or a mailing list or what have you, and they tell the world about it to warn others to avoid that center. These types of discussions often--though not always--devolve into a lot of shouting and condemning. When it comes to good experiences, though, I can honestly say I have never seen a forum or mailing list post about them. What I almost always see in those cases is people writing articles about their great experience--the same articles that later get pointed to as propaganda.This was my biggest problem when doing research. I onl y managed to find one training center with any negative reviews that were thorough, detailed, and posted somewhere other than a forum (Thats currently where I am. Its improved dramatically since those reviewers--all of whom seemed to have been here around 2006-2007--but it isnt really doing anything for me, other than providing someplace away from my parents that also includes a gym. Ah, and a tiny bit of cooking.).Meanwhile, everything negative I could find about the NFB was mostly people using a forum thread as an echo chamber / a giant flame war, in which, surprisingly enough, the ranting and arguing almost never involved anyone who actually had experiences with the centers to share. (They mostly just complained about people they met at conventions or something.). Literally the only solid matter I could question was the sleepshades (and if I wanted to do that, the Wikipedia article would suffice. The Wiki article is actually what left me conce rned about them, since it makes it sound like medical professionals have advised against overuse of sleepshades with certain eye conditions, and this was mostly dismissed.)What Id much rather know is if the training is actually worth it, and its incredibly difficult to evaluate that when the only well-written articles I can find are written by members of the organization.The descriptions of the NFB centers in this thread are actually more encouraging than most of what Ive found before.URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=167112#p167112 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com http://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: [Audiogames-reflector] Training Centers
Re: Training Centers @Cae, well the medical bit is actually true, since there are various eye conditions such as Retinita pygmentosa where a persons eyes will atrophy if not used. I assume if the NFb is a reasonable organization there is some way to come to an arrangement in these circumstances whereby someone could use their vision to keep it going, and if not, then the NFb truly are! unreasonable though Id be surprised if there werent some sort of provision in these circumstances. Regarding evaluating testimony, well one intrinsic problem you have is that crytically people will only speak about something if it is very good or very bad, and only tend to use one measurement one way or the other. Its the same if you look at most review sscores, a good %70 are either 9-10 or 10-10, or 1 or 2 -10.Myself, my opinions of the nfb are based on the evidence Ive gleaned from various testim onies including their own site, but even that is slightly inaccurate since I have had no contact with the organization itself, and I also confess I havent looked at quite as much evidence as you have sinse obviously for me its a very casual interest at best.Id personally recommend you go to an Nfb center, get a tour or whatever, be very nosy and ask a lot of questions and then see what you think.@Ryan, well it is true we are not going to agree, particularly on the sleep shades, however as I said i do see these sorts of discussions as valuable.While I can see the arguement that you can do it without vision so you can do it normally work for people with degenerative conditions, in most cases of people with stable limited vision such as myself I just dont see how it helps, particularly because it assumes you can separate out the visual elements of a task rather than fully intigrating all information. For exampl e, while I do use colour to tell tins apart, it is not the only measure. For example, rice pudding and tinned soop are blue, however the rice pudding tins are much larger than the soop ones, while though kidney beans are red, they have a very different feeling when shaken to baked beans. Vision is not something that can be separated, but part of over all sensory indication, --- as Ive said before, when navigatio navigating, some of my landmarks can be visual, some tactile, some even smell! its a matter of using everything, not of using a few set techniques then putting vision on the top. As I said the confidence thing is logical, but why stop at sleep shades? why not tie everyones right hand behind their back, or strap them into wheel chairs, sinse surely if you can do something in that position sight los isnt that bad, and given that the nfb refrain from those sort of restrictions Im afraid it strikes me that their thinking is coloured by a little more than a level playing field particularly with some of the opinions Ive seen in their literature which are very much of the social prejudice model of disability.Im afraid to me, the sleep shades idea just strikes me as far too much organizational straight jackets, and I would personally much prefer a training scheme that worked to the individual strengths and goals of each person, than went on a one size fits all approach of the kind Ive seen harm so many blind people in this country. Im also afraid that to me, I really cant get away from the thought that the sleep shades thing isnt a symptom of exactly the sort of thinking of those total boys who sought to make themselves better than anyone with sight by making everyone the same. Of course, for people who are total this likely makes no difference, and while it is extreme it might be a help for people with degenerative conditions, though Its everyone else Im more concerned about.Regarding the wood shop or catering, my issue isnt that giving people confidence through attempting those sort of activities is a bad thing, its that forcing people to learn an activity simply for purposes of passing a course and because it is one which the Nfb has demed a good thing for blind people to do is not really a good enough reason. For me, I gained a great deal of confidence when i realized that contrary to some comments I have had, it is not! necessary to make eye contact with another person on stage, and that I can act, dance, and even do physical comedy without being able to see. this was thanks to some very nice directors and instructors on staging, however it meant a lot to me because it was concerned with something I was heavily concerned with. Were I a keen sailer, I would gain confidence through learning to sale and navigate without the need for instruments, while a chap I knew who was recently blind got a lot f from owning a crock pot and being able to cook the things he used to make before he lost his vision. I similarly once met a boy who gained a great deal from simply learning to jump on a trampoline since even free movement without a guide for him was difficult.To me at least, wood working would only be of value as a
Re: [Audiogames-reflector] Training Centers
Re: Training Centers [ a-t ] CAE_JonesI have never heard of research stating that sleepshades can further vision loss, but I would be interested in getting my hands on it. I did see mention made of such research in the Wikipedia article for National federation of the Blind, but it was never cited. Another user even pointed this out in the article. (Also, there are so many inaccuracies in that article that I dont even know where to begin.) Nevertheless, I would be very interested in reading any research on the harm caused by sleepshades.I think the best advice I could give you has already been given. Take a tour or have a call and decide for yourself if youre interested. All 3 centers have a marketing/outreach director that would be happy to talk to you. You can decide for yourself what is spin and what is real and then make your choice.If I can help, please dont hesitate to reach out. I can only speak from my own experiences, but I solemnly swear not to BS you.< p>@DarkIm sorry you cant get away from your conception that sleepshades are a way for totally blind people to feel better about themselves. If you feel this despite the fact that I aspouse them with my limited vision and despite the fact that other instructors, who are themselves not totally blind, require their use, I dont know what to tell you. Certainly there are blind people who have sight envy, but I can assure you that sleepshades are not, nor have they ever been, about making totally blind people feel better. There are even articles and discussions, available on the internet, in which members talk about the inherent usefulness of sight.Let me reiterate yet again that sleepshades are also not about helping people with degenerative conditions, regardless of what the Wikipedia entry says. Certainly they can help with that, but thats not their purpose.Solely for the sake of illustration, lets say I wanted to teach a blind person to deep-fry food in hot oil. Given the propensity for some of my past students with low vision to lean close to their work to see it better, I would want them to use sleepshades, if for no other reason than to protect them from burning themselves. I would teach them to feel for the food with a spatula and show them exactly how deep-frying can be done easily and safely with no vision. If they go home and attempt the same task with their sleepshades off, and if they find they can see the food in the oil without having to use a spatula as a guide, more power to them. If you have vision, and you can use it safely, use it. Far too often, though, people who use their vision do so to avoid the stigma of blindness, and no small amount of heartache and physical injury can result from that.I unfortunately dont know how to quote posts directly like CAE did above, so excuse the sloppiness. Parenthetically, Id love to know how.To me at least, wood working would o nly be of value as a confidence boost if it were something that the individual themselves had a deep desire to do and a conviction that they could not without vision, rather the same way I had an issue with my acting ability. Sometimes the desire isnt present because the fear is so high. You have an interest in acting because its something you want to do. Some people, though, sell themselves out of an activity because they think they cant, or theyre afraid they cant. Wood shop is a catch all for those people.Myself, if I were etting up some sort of training course, Id have those sorts of courses as options, not as requirements, and stick them along side other things that Vi people dont traditionally do such as martial arts, dance, extreme sports or electronics.All good things for blind people to do, but as I said above, centers just dont have the resources for that. I would al so make the argument that, if one has the skills and confidence, that person should go out into the community to learn those skills. Why would anyone need a blindness organization to teach dance, theater, or martial arts?Wood shop is not about teaching a marketable skill--though some people turn it into that. Its about overcoming fears and misconceptions in a highly visible, public way. I cannot tell you how many people have been absolutely blown away by the six-foot, two-hundred pound, solid oak China hutch sitting in my living room when they realize my wife built it completely without sight. Those conversations are rife with the opportunity for public education, and they can help the public to realize that blind people can do the exact same things the sighted do.With home management class the goal on the table is never about catering. Its about learning the skills of home management, including cooking and cleaning, so that people can practice them in their daily lives. The big meal, which takes place at the end of the students training, is a chance for them to show off their newfound skills to their peers. Again, its not about learning a marketable skill; its about instilling confidence.
Re: [Audiogames-reflector] Training Centers
Re: Training Centers CAE, while I personally have not gone to the WSB or NFB training centers I did go to a training center here in Ohio, the Cleveland Sight Center, and I would assume some of those other training centers may have something analogous to my own experience at the Cleveland Sight Center. I have answered the questions below with that in mind.1. Efficiency. 6 months is a long time. I expect Ive got a chunk of the starting skills. Can I expect my time will be used efficiently?Answer: You may do a fair amount of review at first because not all of their students are likely to have the same skills as you have and some may be further ahead or further behind. Usually these training centers arent tailored for any specific persons needs and so it all depends on what you know and dont know when starting out if all of your time will be productive or not.2. On the other hand, free time. Will I have to put aside software / networking / creative aspirations, or will there be time for those?Answer: Absolutely. When I was at the Cleveland Sight Center free time was free time. I could do anything I wanted within reason. I could hang out with the other students in the lounge, hang out in my room listening to music, listen to audio books, bring a laptop along and work on it, etc. At the time I was there I didnt have a laptop but I did bring my BNS along and spent hours of free time writing stories.3. Over-the-top scenario: someone dumps me in the middle of Ontario, and I have to find my way back to campus. Can I gain this power?Answer: They probably wont expect you to do that, definitely not in the beginning, but you will likely learn many OM skills that will help you be able to handle a situation like that. A lot of mobility for a blind person comes down to motivation and determination, and weather or not you have the tools to get the job done.4. My only support network is immediate relatives, w hich is unpleasant. Will I be able to break away from this?Answer: That all depends on a lot of factors not yet in evidence. Although, I live alone and have mostly broken free of my parents they still are a major part of my support system in terms of shopping, filling out paperwork, and other things when I need them. However, complete independence comes down mostly on where you live and what services are available in your area in terms of public transportation, if you can possibly apply for a home health aid, if you are comfortable with cooking and cleaning on your own, and many other factors. Training centers will try and help you get to that point, but nothing will help you more than gaining useful experience by doing it.6. Rules and restrictions. Just in general. One can learn a lot about the people theyll deal with from their rules.Answer: Not having spent any time in the NFB or WSB ran centers I cant really speak to this one. When I was in the C leveland Sight Center I was in a program for blind teenagers and the rules were what you would expect for that age group like girls were not aloud in the boys apartments, and boys were not aloud in the girls apartments. No sex, drugs, or alcohol was permitted.7. WSB hasnt even touched cleaning and repairs. My property is a spider/ant/mold haven. Will I learn how to correct this?Answer: Well, I suppose that depends on the training center, but I am sure if you ask them they should be able to help you with that. When I was at CSB we had a life skills class in which we were taught to do our own laundry, to bake cookies, cook on a stove, fold laundry, and so on. You may need to request someone to come to your home and teach you more life skills if you dont already know how to vacuum, do dishes, clean your toilet, etc. those are generally skills one should learn from their parents, but I guess some parents are either lazy or reluctant to teach their blind child h ow to perform those basic tasks.8. On average, how many people are enrolled at a given time, and what are the demographics like? Age, gender, education, home state, etc.Answer: I suppose that depends on the training center in question, and how many people enroll at that time etc. All I can say is when I was in CSB in the late 90s we had around 15 teens between 17 and 19. One teen was from Lebanon and he roomed with me for the entire four week period. All the others were from the same basic area as myself such as Ohio and Pennsylvania. All were in high school or just graduated so that is about all I can tell you. My group was a summer program for teens getting prepared to go to college and were there to learn basic life skills such as cooking, cleaning, get extra mobility training, etc. A national NFB training center would probably have a bigger and more diverse group.9. (Addendum to 2) Whats internet access like? I dont object to not much , if theres, like, a Starbux I can use ~once or twice a day.Answer: I have no idea.10. Culture. I am highly resistant to assimilation (which has its ups and downs, IME). Whats
Re: [Audiogames-reflector] Training Centers
Re: Training Centers @Ryan, Im afraid Im still not convinced on the sleep shades issue. If a person is peering too close to something in a pan, well thatt tells me they should be using safety goggles not being banned from using their vision. Again, if the question is to prove a person can do something without vision, well why not also have a person tied into a wheel chair and do something without legs? Or maybe you should plug up a persons nostrels while theyre cooking so that they can do it without a sense of smell. Frankly, limited vision is another sense and part of a persons life, and denying it just seems pointless to me. Far better to teach a person to make the most of what they have, rather than deny it for some misconcieved attempt at equality. I have actually been in situations myself where I have had professionals attempt to teach me to do something denying! what my vision is capable of and often relying on things like my spacial sp; coordination which as Ive said is pretty dire. Having a mobility instructor tell me to step count to find a door when i repeatedly tell her I can find the door because it is painted bright blue and is the only one on a road is a very irritating situation, and one which, were I less stubborn than I am couldve put me in a bad situation. I suspect this is something were not going to agree on however.Regarding your statement about skills and teaching, and doing things like martial arts in the community, well firstly for a lot of people who arent able to advocate for themselves, or find a good teacher who can explain without visual reference or make correct alterations in training this isnt an option, and secondly, well why not do carpentry in the community? my issue is not that carpentry isnt a marketable skill, it is just that it seems a little random to force people to pass a course based only on that. < p>I fully well agree learning basic life skills such as normal cooking, cleaning, laundry etc for those who do not know them or havent been taught as Tom said above,is a good thing, but once you go beyond that basic set you seem fairly arbitrary to pick wood working. If it were an optional extra at the centers or if people could pass the course without it, fair enough, but it is having it as an absolute requirement as if it is an essential skil on par with doing laundry that I object to. Ditto with mass catering, though in some ways that is at lest slightly less arbitrary, albeit unless your working in the food industry or volunteering you usually will only have at most 10 people to cook for (certainly outisde my own position as philosophy society president the most people Ive ever had to cook for is 8).I think as I said my major issue with Nfb from the sound of it is the institutionalization of skills and practices which should be personal. Of saying a successful blind person must tick our boxes or else and leaving little room for individualiation in that. That some blind people need a good kick up the arse for motivation i dont disagree with, but this has to be a very individualized kick, engaging in something tht would interest them specifically not attempting to make them fit an external criteria.URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=167147#p167147 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com http://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: [Audiogames-reflector] Training Centers
Re: Training Centers Dark, regarding the sleep shades issue I am sure this is simply an issue you will have to agree to disagree with as I dont think there is any way to convince you of the necessity of this in training. While I am totally blind now when I was loosing my sight I had to wear them for some of my mobility training, and while I disagreed with it then I am glad for it now.As has been stressed before the sleep shades are not being used to make the total blind students feel better or to limit the low vision students abilities by making them totally blind. the primary purpose is to train them to do things a different way, in their opinion, a better way without using their limited vision. Think of it as showing them a way to do things more efficiently with or without sight.For example, a low vision student might be able to tell if meet is done by leaning over and looking at if the meet is brown or still has a little red in it. Thats great. Nobody is going to deprive h im/her of that ability. The idea behind the sleep shades is to teach him/her how to tell if the meet is done by sticking a fork in it and seeing if it is fully cooked or not. That sort of training can only enhance his/her abilities not take away the one they already have.I think, and this is only my opinion, your primary objection is that you have some sight so you should be able to use it in training. On the surface that makes sense, is a reasonable request, accept not everyone who walks into those training centers has stable vision. In fact, I know a woman in her mid 50s whos vision changes on a day to day basis. One day she can read a print book, watch TV, etc and the next everything is blurry and she cant do anything without assistance. In a case like that using sleep shades makes sense, because the training center has to deprive her of any remaining sight to keep her from the temptation of relying on her vision when doing training so she is able to do t hings on days when her sight is unreliable.The issue here is NFB, WSB, and whoever generally create a one-size fits all solution to the problem, and it is that more than anything you are objecting too. While I understand your arguments it does not mean many people can not and do not find their methods useful on some level. Many people do, and more power to them. If people absolutely can not stand or will not use the sleep shades they have two feet and they can walk away from the program. Ultimately weather they believe it or not, like it or not, I think the sleep shades are usually a benefit to most people who go through those training centers.The other reason why sleep shades are often helpful for low vision users is it can build self-confidence in his/her own abilities. If some one can cook, clean, fold clothing, etc with sleep shades on they will be able to do it better when the sleep shades comes off. They will grow confident because if they can do this or that tas k blindfolded then they can probably do it when they are not blindfolded.Again, it seems you are impressing your own experience on people who dont have the same experiences. what I mean by that it sounds like you had a lot of life skills training from your mom growing up, and are a fairly confident person in your own abilities and skills. However, sad to say I cant say that for many blind people I have met in my life.The fact is I have met many at training centers, summer camps, etc that had little to know life skills training and no self-confidence in themselves at all. The low vision users were often times more less self-assured than the totally blind students/campers because they could see to get around and do somethings, but often pretended there was nothing wrong with them even though they clearly could not do whatever they were suppose to do because they were not use to being totally blind and their vision wasnt good enough so they were ca ught in the middle. In cases like that using sleep shades would be helpful because it forces them not to rely on their sight and trains them how to do it blind, builds confidence in their own abilities, and makes them feel like the are able to do stuff despite their poor eye sight.To give you a practical example take crossing the street at a busy intersection. Here in America the stop lights flash green when cars can go and flash red when they have to stop. Unfortunately, those two colors are the most difficult for people with color blindness and low vision users to see. The crosswalk signs may not be easy to read when they say walk or stop. One thing that could or would help a low vision user in that situation is to teach them how to cross the intersection using the flow of traffic the way a blind person does meaning they follow the parallel traffic. Using sleep shades would forfeit any attempt to read the crosswalk signs or use the stoplights when cr ossing the streets, and they would stop and go using their parallel traffic as their guide not the stoplights. So
Re: [Audiogames-reflector] Training Centers
Re: Training Centers I agree with Dark, I see no reason for sleep shades to be required. For confidence building they might do the exact opposite, since if someone with low vision who has little to no skill or self-confidence, who has rarely been away from home, goes to a training center, the last thing they need in the midst of adjusting to being without everyone theyve probably known all their lives is being told that they will not be aloud to use what might be an essential sense for them. At the very least it could slow down the learning process considerably. Of course if ones vision is unstable thats a different matter entirely, but that should be determined on an individual basis. On a totally different note, some time before I left my state school their IT staff decided to reinstate their web filtering, and in addition to just about half the internet (audiogames.net and cracked.com just to name a few), their network now blocks the NFB site, at least it did when I wa s there, and I found that a bit amusing.URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=167187#p167187 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com http://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: [Audiogames-reflector] Training Centers
Re: Training Centers Hi,I have quite a few thoughts on this subject, and I hope that I cover them in a coherent manner. Im not operating on all cylinders at the moment, since Im fighting off a rather nasty cold, but Im going to do my best, since this is a subject thats very important to me. Just let me know if I need to clarify anything, and Ill try.First, I want to say that I agree with Darks sentiments about the sleepshades. There was a time when I would have said they do more harm than good, and, while Im not sure Id say that anymore, the fact remains that a person should really have a right to decide for themselves whether or not sleepshades would be beneficial for them. I think that, if the student is doing something self-destructive in training as a result of relying too heavily on their vision, the instructor should reserve the right to suggest, in a non-judgmental way, that the student should try using the sleepshades. Even then, the emphasis should be on helping the student, not judging them or forcing a value system on them. But if the person is content with using a variety of skills, their wishes should be taken into account.This brings me to my main beef with NFB training centers. Im sure that those of you who are in the organization are familiar with the speech, The Nature of Independence, by Kenneth Jernigan. If you are, and you have read it with an open mind, surely you see how what he is saying is detrimental, and frankly insulting. For the uninitiated, the basic gist is that a student wrote a letter to Kenneth Jernigan, the former president of the NFB, and asked him why the structured discovery method is so rigid. He then responded by writing this speech and delivering it at one of the NFBs conventions. Basically, the speech says that, when a student attends a training center, they go through three phases as their training progresses. These are, and Im paraphrasing, extreme timi dity on the part of the student, where theyre afraid to do or try anything new; belligerence, where they feel theyre completely independent and can do anything, and do anything they can to avoid help from anyone else, particularly the sighted; and finally, a sense of balance. They integrate into their communities just as any sighted person would.I would like to know two things. First, who the hell is he, just one person, to say how every student reacts and behaves? Secondly, if there is truth to this, if this cycle really does happen to every (or most) students, why is that something desirable? Why should I go to a place that will make me arrogant? Furthermore, what about the training experience is so powerful that can change a persons entire core so rapidly?Someone was saying that if you take too much stock in the literature, youll hate the organization. That people are people first. If this is so, why is the literature the first thing that one is directed to when joining the organization? Most likely, its for the same reason that the Bible is the word of God, and you cant be a real Christian without reading it. For the same reason that, if youre an addict, if you dont follow the 12 steps, youre considered a failure. Groups band together because of a common theme, a scripture, if you will. I believe its more than fair to judge an organization based on its literature.I would never go to Wikipedia as a reliable source. A supplemental one, at best, but I definitely wouldnt start there. I honestly didnt even know that the NFB had a page on there. Now, my curiosity is piqued. I may have to check it out.Now, allow me to provide a couple of anecdotes. Earlier in this thread, I alluded to the fact that I have known people who go to training centers because theyre so desperate to escape an undesirable situation that theyll latch onto anything that a stronger person says. More often than not, in the US at least, blind people are strongly encouraged to attend training centers. I have noticed that the people who pressure the most strongly are those who preach the NFBs agenda. Im wording it this way for a reason, which will become apparent in a minute.My first anecdote has to do with a girl who I dont know very well; therefore, the weakest anecdote in my arsenal. I know her because shes my boyfriends ex. They lived together, and dated for several years, so, naturally, I know a bit about her. I also went to school with her, but we were never friends. Anyway, she comes from a very abusive background. From what I knew of her, she was very shy, but also appeared standoffish. She really wasnt what I would consider to be a go-getter, which is understandable, given her history. Not too long ago, she started attending NFB meetings, and from what I hear (my boyfriend still has contact with a few of her friends), shes this completely different person now. Her snippiness is cranked up to 11. She actually went up to some blind man in the grocery store that she didnt even know and started going on and on about how wonderful
Re: [Audiogames-reflector] Training Centers
Re: Training Centers @Camlorn, if your job was interesting enough for you to want to do without listening to books or music, you have pretty much got things right, however that unfortunately is not the case for a good %90 of sighted graduates at the moment. A friend of mine has four degrees and a masters, and yet essentially is working as a glorified secretary, while my brother has friends with doctorates who work as shelf stackers. Its actually quite ironic if you look at the amount of reviews of the Big finish Doctor who stuff how many of them are listened to by sighted people whos jobs are pointless, but in many situations that is not really going to work as a Vi person since often you need to here in order to do said job. Of course if you do manage to do as my brother has and get a real job that you care about that is a very different matter, its just that realistically in society at the moment that is not happening, and low funct ioning drone style jobs are actually the norm.This is part of the reason I tend to not care about a job myself, but then again as I said bennifit wise things work out in the Uk, and so long as I am careful with money I usualy have enough to do as I wish regarding buying the small amount of games, tech etc that interests me, Ive also been lucky in finding a counsel flat I like, and in wanting nothing else with a major financial outlay such as children. This might change of course, indeed my singing teacher is definitely of the opinion I should look for paid work as a professional tenor, and I might considder teaching for the open university, but certainly at the moment Im fairly okay as I am.@Wanderer, that town of your seems amazingly surprising, or at least it does from the Uk employment rates, since over here the actual chance of getting a job is pretty low, especially a reasonable job that requires use of a brain. I can see the logic as confidence building exercises to cooking for 10 or doing carpentry, heck i was once on a holiday where I spent an afternoon digging a path through a forest, however I am a little concerned by the idea of you must do this to pass Regarding transport Camlorn, my point was more that because you will! have more trouble getting to places and what your doing, you need to make sure you care about where your going. As I said I have encountered far too many blind people whos entire life is spent sat at home filling out job applications, who then get the job, expend time getting there but have nothing else of real importance either for the money they get or in terms of actually doing! anything in their lives. This is true for everyone, but if youve got a visual imparement you will be spending more energy doing things so using it in the right way is even more crytical. This is why my mum works part time, since if she worked full time she wouldnt really be able to have enough energy to do much of anything else.URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=166939#p166939 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com http://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: [Audiogames-reflector] Training Centers
Re: Training Centers I just want to jump in ask quickly, is there computer hardware training at NFB centers? In other words, could they teach a blind person how to build or repair computers? Personally, I wouldnt mind going to a center if that was an option.URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=167029#p167029 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com http://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: [Audiogames-reflector] Training Centers
Re: Training Centers I also live in a fairly small city, small enough to not currently have public transit, although there has been talk of implementing suc a system in a few years if the city continues to grow. As for the job thing Im pretty much with Dark. Im not willing to accept a low-functioning droan job just so I can be said to be employed. I also have no interest in call centers for the simple reason that, to quote a friend of mine, people dont call call centers because theyre happy. I can only take so much of being yelled and cursed at over a issue over which, being the mere call center rep, I would most likely have no control whatsoever. The bigger consideration though is money. I would have to be sure that any job I would get would be able to compensate me for the cut te government would inevitably take out of my SSI. I would have to be able to pay the bills, keep food in the apartment and cover any costs related to my transportation to and from work. Ideally I would also have at least some money left over after all that. None of the jobs my rehab counselor at the Commission for the Blind advocated for would have fulfilled that requirement, especially not after allthe debt I incurred as a result of my last would-be romantic relationship.URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=167028#p167028 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com http://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: [Audiogames-reflector] Training Centers
Re: Training Centers @arqmeisterWe never had it because NFB centers dont do specific vocational training, but Im pretty sure the careers instructor at any of the centers could help you get placed.URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=167030#p167030 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com http://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: [Audiogames-reflector] Training Centers
Re: Training Centers Ok, this may sound a little more harsh than my speaking tone would suggest. I feel that an organization who cant even provide career training options is a joke. While learning basic living skills, I would want options to learn how to build and repair computers, or take a course in computer hardware at the very least. I would expect such an organization would have many different options besides would shop? Seriusly? Im going to go out on a limb here and say that there are most likely a very few number of people who would have interest in such things. While I understand that this might be a confidence boost for some, again I want options, I dont want to be force fed projects that NFB feels that I need to be successful. I also feel that totally blind people like myself should be able to opt out of the sleep shades, its pointless, sorry. I could understand needing to level the playing field a little. But if you have no vision at all, why bother? Ill stick to what works for me personally, receiving my training from friends and family, not an organization who expects me to play follow the leader, and be molded in to there image Blind power baby! Sure, if it works for you, rock on, but I think the acultist attitude of the NFB is well documented and laughable. We arent in the 1950s any more, blind people get out, have hobbys, and, from what I have observed on this forum, pretty modernized and educated. The NFB needs to be open to this, and offer more options, and not only living skills, but possible training programs for career oriented people. I stress, if it works for some folks, great, but keep your options open.URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=167036#p167036 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com http://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: [Audiogames-reflector] Training Centers
Re: Training Centers @arqmeisterI think you misunderstand. The point of these programs can be to get you a job, but for many blind people they arent even close to that point. Theres a lot of skills that you need before you can consider something like college or vocational training, and many of these training programs aim at teaching these skills. Quite a few blind people I know and have met over the years personally do in fact need the confidence boosting stuff, many need the how-to-walk stuff, and even the best and most skilled blind people will, at some point, have difficulties with something in the category of independent living. These days, a secretarial job almost means that you might as well stay home and on SSI, and theres not much you can get without at least a two-year degree. To even try for something beyond a high school diploma, you need this. If youre already at the point of knowing what you want to do, then youre ahe ad of most.Also, a blind person can probably do computer hardware repair. I doubt that you can turn it into a paying job-there are a lot of colored wires, labelled sockets, and the like. Connecting something even slightly wrong can damage the component or fry the entire system, and all motherboards and power supplies have differences. At worst, youd have to learn every motherboard and every component you wanted to replace. Youd probably only have to fry one or two systems to be fired, and not much more than that to be disregarded if youre working for yourself. If you actually find a way to do it without sight at a professional level, let me know-the most Ive ever heard of is familiarity with ones own system, and I would hesitate a *lot* to give mine to another blind person for repair. All it would take to do major damage, in some cases, is Oops, this power supply was backward-known to fry the motherb oard on some cheep systems, especially old ones.URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=167042#p167042 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com http://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: [Audiogames-reflector] Training Centers
Re: Training Centers @arqmeisterI understand that you and I are likely going to have very differing opinions, and I respect that. Please keep in mind, though, that calling me a cultist probably wont help either one of us. Aside from that, I want to address a few things you brought up in your post in the hope that I can clear up some confusion.First, sleepshades arent required for totally blind people. As I previously stated, its not a matter of leveling the playing field; its a matter of getting people to not rely on their existing vision. If you dont have any vision, there would be absolutely no need for you to wear sleepshades. Thats just common sense.Second, to your point about an organization providing career training, specific career training is not the goal of the NFB. The reason NFB centers dont provide training in things like computer repair is precisely for the reason you stated above--nobody wants to be shunted into specific jobs if they dont have interest in them. The careers classes taught at BLIND Inc. are meant to teach valuable job seeking skills like resume writing, interviewing, and job searching. Once someone has finished with those, or if he knows how to do these things already, the purpose of careers class is to give the person a place to apply for jobs or colleges, go for interviews, etc.Careers class does not recommend jobs for students. It empowers the students to go out and get whatever job they want, be it computer repairman, chef, lawyer, daycare worker, school counselor, massage therapist, mechanic, teacher, or anything else the person wants to do. The actual training is left up to rehabilitation agencies, trade schools, or colleges, as it should be.You are right that blind people have more opportunities now than they had before, and that has given many opportunities they might not otherwise have had, but I will argue to the wall with anyone who says friends and family can pr ovide all the necessary training. For some, like us, friends and family are great, but I have seen far too many people for whom this isnt the case. I have had a twenty-two-year-old student who couldnt sign his name, an eighteen-year-old cum laude graduate who couldnt tie his shoes, and a girl who, at 43, was still living at home with her parents because they had her convinced that the rest of the world wasnt safe for her. You are one of the lucky ones. I am one of the lucky ones. Others dont have our opportunities.And finally, I want to lay one last thing out about the NFB.Far too often, when someone mentions their consumer group of choice, the NFB in my case, they suddenly get painted with a certain brush as though belonging to a group automatically gives them a certain set of views and beliefs. I think, however, that anyone who took the time to look past the articles and literature might find that the people who make up these organizations are as different and varied as anyone else.Just as political parties have members with differing views, so too do members of consumer groups--or any group, for that matter. Calling NFB members cultists supposes that we all think alike. I can promise you that nothing could be further from the truth.in the end, Im just a guy who wants to help people--not a federationist or a counsel member or anything else. I was fortunate enough to have a teacher who believed in me enough to put a cane in my hand when I was 2 years old, who insisted that I learn Braille instead of reading two-inch-tall letters, who made me talk to my own teachers and order my own books, and who went to bat for me when teachers said they didnt want me in their classrooms, all while teaching me to stand up for myself. I have met too many people who werent that lucky.If someone doesnt want my help, I wont force it on them. If people are happy with where they are in life, its not my place, nor anyone elses, to judge them for their views. But if I can help, I will.URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=167046#p167046 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com http://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: [Audiogames-reflector] Training Centers
Re: Training Centers At Arq: World Services for the Blind has a Desktop Support Technician course, which appears to be close to what youre looking for (Im not sure how deep it gets. My case manager has had me sit in on their classes for about a week, but right now, its a lot of independent study and random questioning. The questions, though, get into some hardware-level and network-level stuff; its the course Id do were I to stay on, but Im pretty sure I need things more like what the NFB centers advertise.)(Also, during the evaluation period at least, there are these group meetings. They are annoying. If I wanted to listen to those sorts of conversations, Id hang out on tumblr. Or... pretty much anywhere on the internet less tame than the places I generally keep to. Moral Decay! People with guns! Society on the decline! Prayer in schools! Ok, but can I have those 15 hours of my February back?)URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=167049#p167049 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com http://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: [Audiogames-reflector] Training Centers
Re: Training Centers @Kileman, Im afraid I still dont get the sleep shades thing. To me, saying well youve lost lots of vision so lets force you to use no vision at all is like taking someone who is paraplegic and tyine one hand behind their back, then forcing them to live like that for a while because surely if they can live without the legs and one hand just living without their legs would be better right? Ignoring the fact that one hand cant support as much weight as too or that you do things very differently with one hand.It just strikes me as a method to make all the totals feel better about themselves at the expense of people with no vision, which seems a little devisive to say the least, not to mention unrealistic in expections. For example, I have several medications I take. I tell these apart by different coloured labels on the boxes. Now yes, I could braille the boxes or do something similar, but why the hel l should! I? my sight is pretty stable and going to remain so, so why should I be penalized for someone elses disability? Heck, why not stop at sleep shades, maybe everyone should go around in wheel chairs too. Im sorry but your explanation just doesnt seem to make much sense. REgarding the course and teaching, well I have no experience of the organization, though bits strike me as a little overkill. For example, I am confident enough in my ability to learn skills to assume that if I put my mind to it I probably could! learn to make a table out of wood, however i have no interest in becoming a carpenter or developing that skill. This is not to do with sight so much as it is to do with my choices in my life, so if I were going on a basic independence course Id feel a little resentful at having to do something which I will likely never do again just in order to pass. Similarly, I can certainly cook a meal for 6 or 7 people and have done so on occasions, but I have no interest in mass catering as a career, so why should I bother developing the skills to cook for 10 people? I suppose there is the arguement that knowing these things will promote basic confidence, however that is pretty much true of learning any skill and I could just as much argue that my confidence is built from the time I spend practicing singing and performance as it would be learning a random set of skills which some other organization deems it necessary for a blind person to have but which dont really have any relation to everyday life or personal goals. I would also wonder if you dont engage in skills like carpentry or mass catering on a regular basis how long your going to keep them after the course anyway, after all theyre not like basic cleaning or cooking or mobility that you will naturally practice anyway just as a basic part of life. < /p>@Camlorn, I would define motivation differently. motivation is the ability to go out and do something when it is difficult, either when that difficulty is practical or not. How this relates to travel time is simply a function of how valuable something is. If I get into the opera school I play to go to, it will mean a three hour train journey there and back times a week, plus a half hour walk once I get there, probably a round travel time of about 6-7 hours, however I am quite willing to do this because my singing career is quite important to me.For the last four years, I attended a light opera society which required a round trip of about 2 hours each day, comprising one taxi, one train, one metro, and a half hour walk each way, which i did sometimes 5 or 6 times a week. previous to this, I was in a production which required an hours walk. shopping when i lived in colidge required a 45 minute walk to the nearest shop, and then 45 minutes back, though now fortunately my flat is closer so its only about a half hour walk. Even when I first got to university, despite the fact that I asked the disability service to put me in a colidge close to where the lectures etc wer, they happened to stick me literally in the farthest one possible, meaning I had a half hour walk (an hour round tri), to each lecture or university event (often I did this there and back 6 times a day, and up a dirty great hill with a laptop on my back). I could do it in 12 minutes if I ran at an unsafe speed, but I rarely did that unless I really had to. Funnily enough however, I actually got used to this, indeed when my parents saw where the colidge Id be assigned to was vs t where the department was they were shocked, while I just said Ill do it! since I was so bent on going. No, this is not fair or reasonable and means that having a visual imparement (or indeed any condition meaning lack of driving), takes a lot more energy. It is also possible to say relative to a similar sighted person with a car, such journies are unreasonable, and to let organizations know about these facts when applying for disability bennifits such as a bus pass or mobility allowance, although Britain seems to be buggering this up at
Re: [Audiogames-reflector] Training Centers
Re: Training Centers Yeah... I need money pretty desperately, but Im not interested in sitting at a call center all day to get it. That would almost definitely cut my lifespan in half.If its a relatively inactive call center and I have a working notetaker and I can, like, code or write or something between calls, I might maybe slightly consider it, given a lack of better options, but... no. I do enough butt-sitting already. I do not want to add talk to people all day, most of them probably idiots to an already terrible situation, just for minimum wage or whatever.(Give me good woodworking skills, and Ill probably try to turn it into a wooden braille display. That Ill probably fail is irrelevant. )URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=166876#p166876 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com http://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: [Audiogames-reflector] Training Centers
Re: Training Centers @Kileman, Im afraid I still dont get the sleep shades thing. To me, saying well youve lost lots of vision so lets force you to use no vision at all is like taking someone who is paraplegic and tyine one hand behind their back, then forcing them to live like that for a while because surely if they can live without the legs and one hand just living without their legs would be better right? Ignoring the fact that one hand cant support as much weight as too or that you do things very differently with one hand.It just strikes me as a method to make all the totals feel better about themselves at the expense of people with lo vision, which seems a little devisive to say the least, not to mention unrealistic in expections. For example, I have several medications I take. I tell these apart by different coloured labels on the boxes. Now yes, I could braille the boxes or do something similar, but why the hel l should! I? my sight is pretty stable and going to remain so, so why should I be penalized for someone elses disability? Heck, why not stop at sleep shades, maybe everyone should go around in wheel chairs too. Im sorry but your explanation just doesnt seem to make much sense. REgarding the course and teaching, well I have no experience of the organization, though bits strike me as a little overkill. For example, I am confident enough in my ability to learn skills to assume that if I put my mind to it I probably could! learn to make a table out of wood, however i have no interest in becoming a carpenter or developing that skill. This is not to do with sight so much as it is to do with my choices in my life, so if I were going on a basic independence course Id feel a little resentful at having to do something which I will likely never do again just in order to pass. Similarly, I can certainly cook a meal for 6 or 7 people and have done so on occasions, but I have no interest in mass catering as a career, so why should I bother developing the skills to cook for 10 people? I suppose there is the arguement that knowing these things will promote basic confidence, however that is pretty much true of learning any skill and I could just as much argue that my confidence is built from the time I spend practicing singing and performance as it would be learning a random set of skills which some other organization deems it necessary for a blind person to have but which dont really have any relation to everyday life or personal goals. I would also wonder if you dont engage in skills like carpentry or mass catering on a regular basis how long your going to keep them after the course anyway, after all theyre not like basic cleaning or cooking or mobility that you will naturally practice anyway just as a basic part of life. < /p>@Camlorn, I would define motivation differently. motivation is the ability to go out and do something when it is difficult, either when that difficulty is practical or not. How this relates to travel time is simply a function of how valuable something is. If I get into the opera school I play to go to, it will mean a three hour train journey there and back times a week, plus a half hour walk once I get there, probably a round travel time of about 6-7 hours, however I am quite willing to do this because my singing career is quite important to me.For the last four years, I attended a light opera society which required a round trip of about 2 hours each day, comprising one taxi, one train, one metro, and a half hour walk each way, which i did sometimes 5 or 6 times a week. previous to this, I was in a production which required an hours walk. shopping when i lived in colidge required a 45 minute walk to the nearest shop, and then 45 minutes back, though now fortunately my flat is closer so its only about a half hour walk. Even when I first got to university, despite the fact that I asked the disability service to put me in a colidge close to where the lectures etc wer, they happened to stick me literally in the farthest one possible, meaning I had a half hour walk (an hour round tri), to each lecture or university event (often I did this there and back 6 times a day, and up a dirty great hill with a laptop on my back). I could do it in 12 minutes if I ran at an unsafe speed, but I rarely did that unless I really had to. Funnily enough however, I actually got used to this, indeed when my parents saw where the colidge Id be assigned to was vs t where the department was they were shocked, while I just said Ill do it! since I was so bent on going. No, this is not fair or reasonable and means that having a visual imparement (or indeed any condition meaning lack of driving), takes a lot more energy. It is also possible to say relative to a similar sighted person with a car, such journies are unreasonable, and to let organizations know about these facts when applying for disability bennifits such as a bus pass or mobility allowance, although Britain seems to be buggering this up at
Re: [Audiogames-reflector] Training Centers
Re: Training Centers @Kileman, Im afraid I still dont get the sleep shades thing. To me, saying well youve lost lots of vision so lets force you to use no vision at all is like taking someone who is paraplegic and tyine one hand behind their back, then forcing them to live like that for a while because surely if they can live without the legs and one hand just living without their legs would be better right? Ignoring the fact that one hand cant support as much weight as too or that you do things very differently with one hand.It just strikes me as a method to make all the totals feel better about themselves at the expense of people with lo vision, which seems a little devisive to say the least, not to mention unrealistic in expections. For example, I have several medications I take. I tell these apart by different coloured labels on the boxes. Now yes, I could braille the boxes or do something similar, but why the hel l should! I? my sight is pretty stable and going to remain so, so why should I be penalized for someone elses disability? Heck, why not stop at sleep shades, maybe everyone should go around in wheel chairs too. Im sorry but your explanation just doesnt seem to make much sense, at least to me. REgarding the course and teaching, well I have no experience of the organization, though bits strike me as a little overkill. For example, I am confident enough in my ability to learn skills to assume that if I put my mind to it I probably could! learn to make a table out of wood, however i have no interest in becoming a carpenter or developing that skill. This is not to do with sight so much as it is to do with my choices in my life, so if I were going on a basic independence course Id feel a little resentful at having to do something which I will likely never do again just in order to pass. Similarly, I can certainly cook a meal for 6 or 7 people and have done so on occasions, but I have no interest in mass catering as a career, so why should I bother developing the skills to cook for 10 people? I suppose there is the arguement that knowing these things will promote basic confidence, however that is pretty much true of learning any skill and I could just as much argue that my confidence is built from the time I spend practicing singing and performance as it would be learning a random set of skills which some other organization deems it necessary for a blind person to have but which dont really have any relation to everyday life or personal goals. I would also wonder if you dont engage in skills like carpentry or mass catering on a regular basis how long your going to keep them after the course anyway, after all theyre not like basic cleaning or cooking or mobility that you will naturally practice anyway just as a basic part of life. @Camlorn, I would define motivation differently. motivation is the ability to go out and do something when it is difficult, either when that difficulty is practical or not. How this relates to travel time is simply a function of how valuable something is. If I get into the opera school I play to go to, it will mean a three hour train journey there and back three times a week, plus a half hour walk once I get there, probably a round travel time of about 6-7 hours, however I am quite willing to do this because my singing career is quite important to me.For the last four years, I attended a light opera society which required a round trip of about 2 hours each day, comprising one taxi, one train, one metro, and a half hour walk each way, which i did sometimes 5 or 6 times a week. previous to this, I was in a production which required an hours walk. shopping when i lived in colidge requ ired a 45 minute walk to the nearest shop, and then 45 minutes back, though now fortunately my flat is closer so its only about a half hour walk. Even when I first got to university, despite the fact that I asked the disability service to put me in a colidge close to where the lectures etc wer, they happened to stick me literally in the farthest one possible, meaning I had a half hour walk (an hour round tri), to each lecture or university event (often I did this there and back 6 times a day, and up a dirty great hill with a laptop on my back). I could do it in 12 minutes if I ran at an unsafe speed, but I rarely did that unless I really had to. Funnily enough however, I actually got used to this, indeed when my parents saw where the colidge Id be assigned to was vs t where the department was they were shocked, while I just said Ill do it! since I was so bent on going. No, this is not fair or reasonable and means that having a visual imparement (or indeed any condition meaning lack of driving), takes a lot more energy. It is also possible to say relative to a similar sighted person with a car, such journies are unreasonable, and to let organizations know about these facts when applying for disability bennifits such as a bus pass or mobility allowance, although Britain seems to be
Re: [Audiogames-reflector] Training Centers
Re: Training Centers @Kileman, Im afraid I still dont get the sleep shades thing. To me, saying well youve lost lots of vision so lets force you to use no vision at all is like taking someone who is paraplegic and tyine one hand behind their back, then forcing them to live like that for a while because surely if they can live without the legs and one hand just living without their legs would be better right? Ignoring the fact that one hand cant support as much weight as too or that you do things very differently with one hand.It just strikes me as a method to make all the totals feel better about themselves at the expense of people with lo vision, which seems a little devisive to say the least, not to mention unrealistic in expections. For example, I have several medications I take. I tell these apart by different coloured labels on the boxes. Now yes, I could braille the boxes or do something similar, but why the hel l should! I? my sight is pretty stable and going to remain so, so why should I be penalized for someone elses disability? Heck, why not stop at sleep shades, maybe everyone should go around in wheel chairs too. Im sorry but your explanation just doesnt seem to make much sense, at least to me. REgarding the course and teaching, well I have no experience of the organization, though bits strike me as a little overkill. For example, I am confident enough in my ability to learn skills to assume that if I put my mind to it I probably could! learn to make a table out of wood, however i have no interest in becoming a carpenter or developing that skill. This is not to do with sight so much as it is to do with my choices in my life, so if I were going on a basic independence course Id feel a little resentful at having to do something which I will likely never do again just in order to pass. Similarly, I can certainly cook a meal for 6 or 7 people and have done so on occasions, but I have no interest in mass catering as a career, so why should I bother developing the skills to cook for 10 people? I suppose there is the arguement that knowing these things will promote basic confidence, however that is pretty much true of learning any skill and I could just as much argue that my confidence is built from the time I spend practicing singing and performance as it would be learning a random set of skills which some other organization deems it necessary for a blind person to have but which dont really have any relation to everyday life or personal goals. I would also wonder if you dont engage in skills like carpentry or mass catering on a regular basis how long your going to keep them after the course anyway, after all theyre not like basic cleaning or cooking or mobility that you will naturally practice anyway just as a basic part of life. @Camlorn, I would define motivation differently. motivation is the ability to go out and do something when it is difficult, either when that difficulty is practical or not. How this relates to travel time is simply a function of how valuable something is. If I get into the opera school I play to go to, it will mean a three hour train journey there and back three times a week, plus a half hour walk once I get there, probably a round travel time of about 6-7 hours, however I am quite willing to do this because my singing career is quite important to me.For the last four years, I attended a light opera society which required a round trip of about 2 hours each day, comprising one taxi, one train, one metro, and a half hour walk each way, which i did sometimes 5 or 6 times a week. previous to this, I was in a production which required an hours walk. shopping when i lived in colidge requ ired a 45 minute walk to the nearest shop, and then 45 minutes back, though now fortunately my flat is closer so its only about a half hour walk. Even when I first got to university, despite the fact that I asked the disability service to put me in a colidge close to where the lectures etc wer, they happened to stick me literally in the farthest one possible, meaning I had a half hour walk (an hour round tri), to each lecture or university event (often I did this there and back 6 times a day, and up a dirty great hill with a laptop on my back). I could do it in 12 minutes if I ran at an unsafe speed, but I rarely did that unless I really had to. Funnily enough however, I actually got used to this, indeed when my parents saw where the colidge Id be assigned to was vs t where the department was they were shocked, while I just said Ill do it! since I was so bent on going. No, this is not fair or reasonable and means that having a visual imparement (or indeed any condition meaning lack of driving), takes a lot more energy, (and that aside from the energy spent on route memorization, high concentration on avoidance or mental mapping etc). It is also possible to say relative to a similar sighted person with a car, such journies are unreasonable, and to let organizations know about these
Re: [Audiogames-reflector] Training Centers
Re: Training Centers Unfortunately Cae, that is one other thing about a visual imparement, most jobs you cant! listen to music/radio/audio books etc while doing them even in menial jobs because your ears are usually necessary.I know many sighted people who do things like stack shelves or drive taxies, but make things more bareable by listening to something while they do it. I even had one friend who changed from a call center job to a job essentially loading trays into the correct part of a mechanical stacking and filing system since even though the call center paid him more money, the filing job allowed him to listen to music while he did it.but for visually impared people especially at the low functioning basic cognition jobs such as call center or office work that are usually recommended that option isnt open. Actually on that sort of basis, carpentry wouldnt be such a bad job :.URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=166889#p166889 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com http://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: [Audiogames-reflector] Training Centers
Re: Training Centers (And that is why I would not dream of getting a note taker without a braille display, but that topic has been beaten to death already. )... Actually, on that note... I was kinda hoping I would be able to spin my time at WSB into a new Notetaker (or at least repairs to th PACMate), but they want me in a vocational program before doing that.Im pretty sure I would have had a much, much better February had I received a notetaker within the first week.Just this morning, I was reading some old threads and had an impulse to start coding something, and my immediate reaction was not to open notepad, but to want to reach for the PACMate.And really, there is plenty of downtime in places where bringing a laptop would be inappropriate.But eh.URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/ viewtopic.php?pid=166898#p166898 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com http://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: [Audiogames-reflector] Training Centers
Re: Training Centers In terms of notetakers and programming, no, no, no. I can maybe see a braille display, though. dont go for a Notetaker, go for a braille display if you really want it. I am referring to programming only, though it is worth finding out that the new Macbooks apparently have 18 hour battery life, so thats that argument gone. Also, if you practice, you can in fact do screen reader and music at the same time-I do it, but only with headphones. My opinion is that, ideally, your job should be engaging/difficult enough that you dont want to listen to music. In terms of the real world, your employer who might hire you to program for $75000/year will not be happy to see you programming on a PACMate and transferring files; you probably wont even make it through the job interview.As for the job as productivity, well, thats true. Id be fine personally with some other path, but that path has to involve at least s ome money. I do not want to spend my life at home on SSI; I am assuming that CAE doesnt either. Personally, I want a career at a university.You probably qualify for paratransit services. The application can be difficult, depending, but I qualified no questions asked, and Ive got fully developed mobility skills and a guide dog.Dark, its good to have a passion. For most of us, however, required motivation does not grow linearly with travel time.I do think that the training programs are very over the top on the needless skills. Woodworking? Meals for 10? No. I understand why they do it: confidence is part of it, but also allowing a blind person to have normal life experiences that they wouldnt otherwise get. I highly, highly doubt that most of them can lead to a job, however-we are way, way, way past the age of hand assembly, and the number of families who need a blind person to come make a meal for 10 every night are rare indeed (on a sidenote, I may know a way that blind people can use 3d printers right now; its too bad that this wont lead to a job either).URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=166910#p166910 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com http://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: [Audiogames-reflector] Training Centers
Re: Training Centers @dark and everyone else, I know completely what you mean about the ridiculously rigid mobility instructors. The one from my state school I mentioned is a pretty good example, at one point she pretty much demanded that I hold my cane in my left hand which I rarely do (I refused and she backed off,) so that I could feel a wall with my other as I walked, if Id simply been told how the wall curved it wouldnt have been necessary to feel it at all, and again once I found out on my own there was no issue. And god, step counting! really! Anyway, I do okay with memorized directions, but when walking long distances my mind tends to wander some, as in I cant constantly think about how Im walking, where turns are, terrain texture etc. I wish I would pay more attention to such things, but dont know if Id do any better if I did. The town I live in thrives on tourism, so it is pretty easy for any sighted person to sometimes even get a long-term job fast; from what Ive heard my sister who is sighted, basically just decided she wanted a job one day, and a day or two later she had it, and is still working there a year and a half or so later. Having a job is a thing around here, almost every teenager from my school I talk to or friend on facebook has a job, so it can get pretty depressing. As for why Id need money, for one Id like a phone if I could easily afford it, even though hardly anyone talks to me they can still be quite handy, the blindsquare thing being just one example. Also itd be nice to get some hardware upgrades, most of my equipment is secondhand and my desktop I built in 2010 could use a bit more RAM, though for the most part it runs extremely well. Buses in the US are indeed very unpredictable, most of the ones Ive encountered in large metro areas around here speak, but I guess it must be poorly maintained or very outdated, because about a quarter of the time the system doesnt work. I hate asking drivers about stops, because A) my hearing loss I mentioned earlier can make it difficult to separate his/her voice from the engine noise and chatter, which can be pretty loud and especially if Im at the back, and b) it takes long enough to do the ticket/cash routine and finding a seat, talking to the driver prolongs it even further, and I dont like holding people up, and all thats assuming the driver even bothers to call out the stop. Over the top skills are something I saw a lot of at that program I mentioned, example it was required that you cook a full meal to their specs at least once a week with a main, a side etc. Wanting people to learn to cook is understandable, but the kitchen was huge and almost always very crowded with people walking around, so I think it was a bit unfair to have people comment on your performance when youre constantly being hindered by other people. I get that cooking and eating actual meals is good, but I 9;m not going to put aside convenience on someones whim, and Im 17, and will probably be eating a lot of processed crap if I end up going to college or getting an apartment before I have a decent income. At the job I was working for that program I could listen to music and books most of the time, which was a nice compensation for being so mind-numbing. I hate talking to people I dont know, and really wouldnt want to have my ears start acting up when some short-tempered person is on the other end, so a call center is out of the question, that is if I can avoid it. Itd be pretty awesome if notetakers had python or at least a basic c compiler, I have a hard time holding long strings from audio in my head, so I end up having to slow speech considerable and right and left arrow around, and damn all those people making noise! I can connect my BrailleNote to my laptop using a USB to serial adapter and an extremely long serial cable, which combined with earphon es and chargers would turn into a huge tangle wherever I was, probably at some inconvenient time where I needed to stand up and get my shit together fast. Sorry for all my disjointed run-together rambling, its late over here.URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=166936#p166936 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com http://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: [Audiogames-reflector] Training Centers
Re: Training Centers @Camlorn, A strainer inside the pan is a good idea, although I personally dont really do enough on the hob to really warrent getting one. I personally prefer meat either on the george, in the crock pot if it is something like a joint of ham, or in the oven, since while there is no problem cooking meat in the microwave, it doesnt tend to come out as wel, though its certainly better than nothing. Interesting about the Us and busses, because as I said in England bus announcements are so bad as to be mostly usuable accept for London city and while there is an onrunning campeigne going on by the guide dogs organization which I have supported, the government have bsically said bog off, were not sparing the cash which is depressing. example basically lived at home filling out applications with his degree in computer science (which hed not even chosen to do but had been push ed into doing), and when I asked him why he was doing it, he replied have a job, get money when I asked what he wanted the money for he replied dont knowURL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=166752#p166752 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com http://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: [Audiogames-reflector] Training Centers
Re: Training Centers @Camlorn, A strainer inside the pan is a good idea, although I personally dont really do enough on the hob to really warrent getting one. I personally prefer meat either on the george, in the crock pot if it is something like a joint of ham, or in the oven, since while there is no problem cooking meat in the microwave, it doesnt tend to come out as wel, though its certainly better than nothing. Interesting about the Us and busses, because as I said in England bus announcements are so bad as to be mostly usuable accept for London city and while there is an onrunning campeigne going on by the guide dogs organization which I have supported, the government have bsically said bog off, were not sparing the cash which is depressing. Btw,what is blind square?example basically lived at home filling out applications with his degree in computer science (which hed not eve n chosen to do but had been pushed into doing), and when I asked him why he was doing it, he replied have a job, get money when I asked what he wanted the money for he replied dont know which is just depressing. Regarding expectations, well my mum had been through the specialist school system, and experienced all the bad effects from that form of mentality so when she came to have kids she was dam certain that my brother and I would not have the same experiences or expectations, so we were always expected to have pretty standard levels of achievement. It also helped that of course, I learnt all the independence and mobility stuff pretty much at the same time a sighted child would do, for example I first started to go to miner routes on my own when I was about 7, and then even though I lost most of my vision at that point, I started doing it again two years later and then increased and did more until I was far more co mfortable and even went away to florida with a Vi holidays group when i was 14.While I did get cane technique training when I was eleven, and have been to at least one independence course (though i primarily agreed just because I knew the teacher), in general I just learnt what I needed at home, indeed it was my parents who first started me off cooking by showing me what I needed to know leaving me alone for several weekends, initially with just a microwave but later with more appliances, though I will say nothing taught me more about that sort of thing than when i moved into my colidge at university and had to do stuff for myself.this is also why I had to develope alternatives to absolute spacial awareness, such as using memory and relative directions and why I know my spacial conception abilities are less than normal, one reason why I find it so difficult to play games like chess,Sudoku, boggle and other audio games requiring the a udio review of a large area square by square to build up an entire picture of the tactical region. I can do those sorts of games when getting a visualor tactile overview of the situation, eg, playing chess with a tactile board, but I find it extremely difficult overview a large space in small chunks of data, eg, seeing the chess board in audio square by square, and then make decisions. I can do the numerical side of this, one reason why i so love the use of relative distances and directions in time of conflict, and I also dont have any problem playing backgammon in audio since the board is essentially a straight line which I can conceive as a numerical series, but conceiving o a space in real erms from small amounts of data is just something my brain has trouble with. Then again as I said, there are alternatives, and I do believe my memory and ability to notice environmental elements has bennifited because of said need for alte rnatives.Btw, ironically, one of the things that I have only just realized, is one of the greatest aides to memory and landmarks and working around large spaces I ever used was computer games. Playing the Turrican or Metroid games (which are famous for having massive levels), I actually learnt a lot of the techniques I later employed on mobility. While those games admitedly are graphical and were accessible with my limited vision, I woud actually venture to suggest that audio games such as shades or gma tank commander could serve the same function, possibly even papasangre in its more complex stages.URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=166752#p166752 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com http://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: [Audiogames-reflector] Training Centers
Re: Training Centers cea jones. i hope you ended up emailing the man i involved in our little twitter exchange about your questions. he is a really smart man and the leader of the program at louisiana center for the blind. hope he was able to answer your questions. if you havent emailed him, i implore you to do. he will be able to answer your questions a lot better than anyone here could do. that beeing said, im gonna provide my answers.a bit of back ground first.i am a 20 year old colledge student. i grew up in St. Louis Missouri and i go to college in Springfield Missouri. they are about 3 hours by car away from each other. my college is small, like only a few thousand students, but i like it like that. its big enough to be some what anonymous, but yet, the professors get to know you really well, and you have a nice sized group of friends. i did the high school program down at Louisiana Center back in 2010 and while extremely challenging, it was very rewarding in the long run. i will explain most of that when answering the questions.1. Efficiency. 6 months is a long time. I expect Ive got a chunk of the starting skills. Can I expect my time will be used efficiently?yes very much so. i only did the high school program. it is only 3 months as aposed to the adult program. the adult program includes several different things that the student one does not. including, a longer training time, and harder and loftier goals. in order to graduate, you will need to make several large meals for upwards of 10-50 people, complete a wood shop project such as a desk, chess board, or something else it doesnt really matter, and completing a travel root called a drop. all of these of course under sleep shades .i will address sleep shades here as well, because you dont really talk about them anymore, which was kind of surprising. there are a few reasons why sleep shades are used. firstly, it level s the playing field for all the students. so if student a is doing the same thing as student b both under sleep shades, it can be a confedence boost to all parties involved because both students see that they are being successful. second off in some situations, like mine, peoples vision can change. i dont know what my vision could do. i could loose the rest of my vision, or it could stay the same. so when i used the sleep shades, it gave me the confidence that no matter what my vision will do i can be successful in spite of what what my vision does. on the flip side of that, if your vision wont change, you still will have the confidence that if you can do it with out sight, you can sure as well do it with vision. now, people are gonna say, oh so the nfb hates using vision. they think its a sin to look at something. after all, we are blind so we cannt use any vision at all. this is as far from the truth as it can be. i n most cases, especiall when people dont have anytraining before going to a center, if they use there little remaining vision to do something, sometimes thats more detremental to that persons safety. him or her is just better off learning alternative techniques. the nfb doesnt swear off vision, its being inteligetn enough to know what works for you and what makes you the most efficient. e.g. a mixture of non-visual and if you have the vision, visual techniques.2. On the other hand, free time. Will I have to put aside software / networking / creative aspirations, or will there be time for those?there is leasure time to hang out with the other people in the program with you. and you can have alone time too.3. Over-the-top scenario: someone dumps me in the middle of Ontario, and I have to find my way back to campus. Can I gain this power?they wouldnt have you do it for graduation, if they havent done it them selves or have other graduates that have done it before you.4. My only support network is immediate relatives, which is unpleasant. Will I be able to break away from this?my personal opinion is that family is there for a reason when you need it, but it takes self-discipline and independence to know what you can handle and what you cant. and for some people, they ddont get that confidence, until they go threw a program.5. I dont want to move to a major city. Will I still be able to travel (mostly) independently?your only limited by your motivation and your environment. for example, if you live in a more rural area, you dont have oprotunities like public transit, so your gonna have to be more self-advicating such as getting rides from other people such as neighbors and friends. where as if you live in a more metropolitan area, you can have lots of public transit opprotunities at your finger tips. so it depends on wh at your looking for, and where you want to live at. there are plently of options in the middle of the spectrum as well btw.6. Rules and restrictions. Just in general. One can learn a lot about the people theyll deal with from their rules.the adult program treats you like adults. you do need to go
Re: [Audiogames-reflector] Training Centers
Re: Training Centers @darkI dont advocate cooking meat in the microwave; my typical technique is to put it in for about 45 seconds to a minute at the end if Im not sure. This just makes sure that the middle is done, and does so without burning the outside horribly.Blindsquare is a Trekker for about $20 if youve got an iPhone, and without all the crashes, dedicated hardware, and the like. Couple it with Apple maps, and you can do halfway decent route planning; on its own, it can do what street signs do for the sighted. Its got a lot of little features in there-all sorts of searching and stuff. You can bookmark places and know in what direction and how far they are at any time (as the crow flies,).@Kyle12/CAE:The sleep shades thing should never be about leveling the playing field. If we want a level playing field, then we need to start getting rid of intelligence differences and all sorts of other stuff with your remaining vis ion, and bring you down to the lowest common denominator in the group. Sleep shades can provide benefits in that you cannot easily open your eyes and that you therefore have to learn to use the other skills, but thats really it.As for travel, motivation is a nice fiction. You do not need to be in a major city, but you need to be in some sort of suburb at the least. The thing with friends and all that is that you must have them; otherwise, its you and your own two feet. You dont technically have to own a computer, either. Its the same sort of thing. Id really suggest trying a city, if only for a week with some friends. I dont know if the training centers will give you the skills to do it, but it is possible to live in a rural environment. That said, keep in mind that youre probably going to be going to work every day-however far you live from your job determines how much time you lose, and in areas without public transportation youre easily looking at hours. I know that in your specific situation, you own some property. You may seriously want to consider it an investment, not a home. I consider myself a high-functioning individual, Im in a fairly urban environment (college campus+surrounding neighborhood+some stores), and getting from here to the stores (a journey of about 10 minutes for a sighted peer) would take me a minimum of half an hour-and that relies on the bus, which also limits where I can actually get. Id also have to jog at least part of it.The final thing that I have been stuck needing help with forever now is grocery shopping; if I were employed, outside a major city, and my job was not within walking distance of my home, Id need help getting there too.It is not about skill level, though that is what they want you to believe. It is only very slightly about motivation-more motivation = wil ling to waste more time, but those arent really proportional. It is about the fact that, outside of major cities, the US is built for people to have cars. Forget blindness. This isnt a blindness problem. If you were a sighted person, no disability, young, fit, etc, itd still apply. You can only walk so fast. In the major cities, public transportation feeds on itself to some extent-the better it gets, the more people use it, the more people care about it getting better, so it does. Also, things tend to cluster together in major cities,n bringing them closer to your home. Its all about coverage-3 miles is on the lengthy side, and most things will be about as far away as that from you. Buses might stop less than every 3 miles, but that doesnt help you if they dont stop within a convenient distance of where you need to be. To throw out some numbers: it takes me a about 20 minutes to walk abou t 1.5 kilometers, and I walk faster than most of my sighted peers. Using the on-campus bus system makes it take anywhere from 10 to 40, depending on how long I have to wait. This is hard won wisdom. It took me a very long time to understand that, essentially, Im going to need to leave my entire family if I want to have the freedom to do things like go out whenever I want, or not have to start turning down jobs that wouldnt be a problem to get to for an equivalent sighted person. Perhaps the universe hates us, but the pest part of non-city life is that sometimes, the closest whatever is not actually the closest for you-the grocery store I can get to in half an hour is about 15 to 20 minutes for a sighted peer, too bad the other one is only 5 minutes by car but a whole lot more walking than that (Ive got a sighted friend who sometimes walks it for exercise-it takes him about 45 minutes of pure walking one way).That said, you can get away with one other thing that Im aware of: not living in the city, but living somewhere that has convenient public transportation to the major city. Ive got a friend who does that: its a 7 or so minute walk to the train that comes every 15 minutes, and the train can get him to Denver in about a half hour-as well as about 10 other places. Chances are that your
Re: [Audiogames-reflector] Training Centers
Re: Training Centers At Kyleman: Thanks!I did email him yesterday. If hes normally a quicker reply than this, I wouldnt be surprised if it got flagged as spam because of it being from my Juno account. At Camlorn: Im in a weird town, with regards to suburbs/cities/etc.Its large for the state (the population was over 50k in the 90s; I dont know what it is now, but it keeps growing, and consequently there are always new things getting built). Its about as far as its possible to get from other major cities in-state (When I was looking up taxi services in the capital city, there was explicit mention of inter-city rides being available if scheduled in advance, and quite a few useful places are within an hour of the capital by car). Were more part of the Metropolitin area of the city in the next state over, yet I know nothing about options to travel there and back.The nearest Grayhound station is in a smaller town ~55miles away (I found a local cab company willing to go that far, but itd be pricy). We have a small airport, that mostly just flies to and from St Louis (and is cheaper than getting a cab to the Grayhound station. If I was taking an interstate bus trip, Id consider flying to St Louis and using their station just to save money.)Its basically a small town that refuses to admit its turning into a small city, which is detrimental to its accessibility.Ive had people at WSB encouraging me to try and convince the local paratransit that I qualify for their services (weak though they be). The whole Must be impossible, not just difficult clause kinda makes me doubt the efficacy of that idea.URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=166830#p166830 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com http://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: [Audiogames-reflector] Training Centers
Re: Training Centers I made a list of questions I have for training centers (tailored more for NFB centers). It wound up longer than I expected. Ill go ahead and post it here, and see if anyone has anything to add/criticize/suggest/answer/etc.1. Efficiency. 6 months is a long time. I expect Ive got a chunk of the starting skills. Can I expect my time will be used efficiently?2. On the other hand, free time. Will I have to put aside software / networking / creative aspirations, or will there be time for those?3. Over-the-top scenario: someone dumps me in the middle of Ontario, and I have to find my way back to campus. Can I gain this power?4. My only support network is immediate relatives, which is unpleasant. Will I be able to break away from this?5. I dont want to move to a major city. Will I still be able to travel (mostly) independently?6. Rules and restrictions. Just in general. One can learn a lot about the people theyll deal with from their rules.7. WSB hasnt even touched cleaning and repairs. My property is a spider/ant/mold haven. Will I learn how to correct this?8. On average, how many people are enrolled at a given time, and what are the demographics like? Age, gender, education, home state, etc.9. (Addendum to 2) Whats internet access like? I dont object to not much, if theres, like, a Starbux I can use ~once or twice a day.10. Culture. I am highly resistant to assimilation (which has its ups and downs, IME). Whats the memetic landscape typically like?11. I need control over my life more than I need a job, but positive income would help loads. Can I expect advantages on that front?12. Can I have a million dollars? (Just thought Id check, just in case.)URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=166674#p166674 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com http://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: [Audiogames-reflector] Training Centers
Re: Training Centers @Cinnamon, interesting and good thoughts. I did a lot of what you describe in terms of using cold implements while learning, I also did as you said with cooking times, and checking food. Another tactic Ive often used is poking things with a fork to check if theyre done, that works well particularly with things like chicken, indeed on one occasion at my tabletop rp group one of my friends who was cooking that night actually couldnt see visually the colour of the chicken due to a very red sauce, so that skill came in handy . I would personally disagree on using the inside of the oven and shelves being harder than the rings on the top, or at least that is what I have always found myself, I would also highly recommend chefs gloves over conventional oven mits. When i do pasta (the only thing I tend to do consistantly on the rings), I can actually position the pans on the rings while hot with the chefs gloves on, which helps considdrably. I also have a rather whacky process for straining water from the pasta, involving a sieve virtually the same size as the pan, sticking the handles of the pan and sieve together and holding extremely tightly so that nothing but water can come out, then turning the hole thing upside down over the sink.With knobs, well while guestimating can be accurate (even for me), to be honest if its your kitchin its not so diff difficult to mark the knobs with braille, or indeed bumpons, in fact I dont know if you can get bumpons in the Us but theyre hugely useful for lots of appliances from cookers to washing machines, theyre basically round dots of rubber with glue on the back. I have braille lables every 50 degrees, and if something say needs 225, getting th e halfway point isnt a problem.I agree with you on hot liquids. When I started at university, I decided to give up instant coffee and switch to the propper stuff, however my liquid level indicator wouldnt fit over my cafeteir, so I started using my finger tip and slow pouring. These days I actualy havent used an indicator for boiling water for literally years, whether Im making coffee, tea, or using boiling water in my cooking. I have had one or two scolds, but nothing that a minute under the cold tap didnt cure, indeed Id feel a bit weerd using an indicator now even though there was a time I used one constantly the specialist school I went to even had custom built indicators which had one bleep for the amount of milk, and another for the amount of tea or coffee irrispective of preference, and [[wow]] betide you if you wanted something different, which is pretty typical of a certain sort of blind behaviou r. In general I could do more serious cooking than I do do, but when there is just me to cook for there never seems point doing anything hugely elaborate, making a serious chilly or spag bol is about as far as I go.@Cae, well appliances help, but it is working out what you can do with them. In colidge during my masters I actually had! nothing but a microwave to cook with. This had nothing to do with blindness but was a result of some nazi fire safety regulations, (I actually finished up smuggling in a george forman at one point just for variety). However even with a microwave there is more than just ready meals to do. For example, while I likely could! cook rice on the top of the stove, I dont particularly bother since there are some very good dried rices that are quick to do in the microwave and go just as well if I make a curry. Also, if I decide to pick up something to chuck in the oven like chicken breast in sauce, well I usually microwave vedgitables to go with it.Regarding the crock pot aka Slow cooker, well all the ones Ive seen are like mine, and have pretty simple controls, basically a dial that can click into four positions, off, low, high, and warm. There is also a guide light which changes in brightness, but this isnt necessary, since putting a dial two clicks to the center isnt exactly rocket science. the only major issue with the crock pot is when whatever you have done is done, you need to lift the pot out of the heater. This is again where my kevlar gloves come in useful, and of course making sure I know where I am going to put the thing. Regarding mobility, well unfamiliar places will be a problem for most people, there is no magic formula, though i will say a guide dog can be massively helpful in the situation for ability to find common place objects.The major thing is just practice, practice, practice, an d dont panic. While there are some standard cane techniques Ive never really heard of any convincing tests that Id trust, its just a matter of doing the thing repeatedly until you get good enough to do the things you want, and for that to be honest Id recommend just finding some local places you want to go (or at least places within travelling distance), and going to them many times.Frankly your parents just sound paranoid to me, and while I understand such attitudes they do sort of
Re: [Audiogames-reflector] Training Centers
Re: Training Centers @Cinnamon, interesting and good thoughts. I did a lot of what you describe in terms of using cold implements while learning, I also did as you said with cooking times, and checking food. Another tactic Ive often used is poking things with a fork to check if theyre done, that works well particularly with things like chicken, indeed on one occasion at my tabletop rp group one of my friends who was cooking that night actually couldnt see visually the colour of the chicken due to a very red sauce, so that skill came in handy . I would personally disagree on using the inside of the oven and shelves being harder than the rings on the top, or at least that is what I have always found myself, I would also highly recommend chefs gloves over conventional oven mits. When i do pasta (the only thing I tend to do consistantly on the rings), I can actually position the pans on the rings while hot with the chefs gloves on, which helps considdrably. I also have a rather whacky process for straining water from the pasta, involving a sieve virtually the same size as the pan, sticking the handles of the pan and sieve together and holding extremely tightly so that nothing but water can come out, then turning the hole thing upside down over the sink.With knobs, well while guestimating can be accurate (even for me), to be honest if its your kitchin its not so diff difficult to mark the knobs with braille, or indeed bumpons, in fact I dont know if you can get bumpons in the Us but theyre hugely useful for lots of appliances from cookers to washing machines, theyre basically round dots of rubber with glue on the back. I have braille lables every 50 degrees, and if something say needs 225, getting th e halfway point isnt a problem.I agree with you on hot liquids. When I started at university, I decided to give up instant coffee and switch to the propper stuff, however my liquid level indicator wouldnt fit over my cafeteir, so I started using my finger tip and slow pouring. These days I actualy havent used an indicator for boiling water for literally years, whether Im making coffee, tea, or using boiling water in my cooking. I have had one or two scolds, but nothing that a minute under the cold tap didnt cure, indeed Id feel a bit weerd using an indicator now even though there was a time I used one constantly the specialist school I went to even had custom built indicators which had one bleep for the amount of milk, and another for the amount of tea or coffee irrispective of preference, and [[wow]] betide you if you wanted something different, which is pretty typical of a certain sort of blind behaviou r. In general I could do more serious cooking than I do do, but when there is just me to cook for there never seems point doing anything hugely elaborate, making a serious chilly or spag bol is about as far as I go.@Wanderer, sorry, missed your post previously. One thing I have noticed about certain sorts of mobility instructors is that they often believe there is one and only one way of doing things, and if you dont adhere to that way, you are some sort of criminal. I for example had one terrible lady who once tried to insist! on step counting. Therefore Id suggest myself that you considder using some alternatives. The land marks method for navigation I use for example, relies on the fact that I dont use complex spcial maps, either tactile or internalized, and rather than trying to remember my position with respect to a larger absolute space, I simply remember a set of landmarks and turns. For example, there is one particular university building (the union society building), near the cathedral. I have no practical idea where it actually is in space from my flat, but I know if I use the major crossing near the bank, turn left along the pavement (going up hill), walk along a grass verge until i find a path, go right along that path, carry on straight, up a flight of steps and a steep cobbled street between two buildings, across a small alley, turn right next to a low wall, walk forward, turn left up a small alley keeping to that same wall (actually the wall of the Cathedral grounds), then turn right find some more grass until i hit some steps, that! is the door of the union building. I have absolutely no practical idea where in space the building is relative to the crossing, but by memorizing directions, and signifyers, and also taking note what happens if I miss those landmarks, I know I can find it every ime. What struck me on this method was your mentioning of tactile markes, since that is exactly the sort of information Id take note of and use myself.regarding straight directions, well there are ways to minimize veering such as for example putting your feet with both heals back against a flat surfice before you start, and also using either sweeping or cane tapping in front of each leading foot since that naturally will keep your body in a more central place, however most of the time if you know what
Re: [Audiogames-reflector] Training Centers
Re: Training Centers @darkI did not mean to imply that all buses here have spoken announcements, and I do not believe they all have the same type. Some announce the route externally, some announce the route internally, some do both, and some do neither. I am somewhere that is generally considered backward, however, and we have them. The US is kinda like the department store of living situations, at least for the blind: You can find everything. No, really. Everything. Also, Blindsquare. I swear by Blindsquare (if it doesnt have your bus stops, you can add them trivially. You can track your locations, and get distance/direction updates as you travel. No more asking the driver).@CAE/everyone else:The oven is easier than the stove in my experience, because the stove often requires ongoing manipulation of the foodstuffs. It could be as simple as stirring, or as complex as flipping pancakes or worse (Im sure I ca n find at least 10 recipes that require a stove and a utensil none of us have heard of). As for straining, you can find strainers that are designed to be put into the pot before cooking things like pasta; you then lift it out, leaving all the water behind. Mine is a strange net wire contraption thing thats a bit hard to describe, but it folds to about the shape and size of a plate when stored. Drop it in the pot, add pasta on top, remove when done.As for the doneness issue, rather than overcooking, you can microwave. Cook meat until it seems close, microwave for 1 minute on high. The trick is to get the middle hot enough to be safe. YMMV.For mobility, it really is practice. You seem--judging by the image to braille thing--to like images, and to possibly be a graphical learner. Depending on where you are, it may be possible to find high-level braille maps, but that implies being near/at/within reasonable distance of a big organization for the blind, and isnt really common even then. Generally, the spatial skills that blind people need are developed by the sighted because they have sight, and Im surprised that no one tries to teach them to the blind through map usage and other such things. Note that how much can actually be taught/developed is debatable, and maximum effect is gained at a younger age.Your parents not understanding your capabilities/the capabilities of blindness in general is a failing on their part, not yours. If they are data oriented, maybe send them research on successful blind people or something. My parents discovered the capacities and limitations of blind people by deciding that I would go as far as I possibly could--whether or not I wanted to. It ended up being much further than most people expected when I was in elementary school, to say the least (Florida is depressing in their expectations, but this may not be a local problem and Ive heard of it lots of other places). Consider it an opportunity to teach them that theyre wrong.@wanderer:HTML wont get you super far as a blind person on its own, because you cant do visual design. Combined with something, you can do thins with it-the web designer on the team gets to make the pretty CSS. Do not focus in on HTML, focus in on programming-if you know programming, HTML takes about 3 hours to learn. Command prompt can get you far, but dont use Speakup. Youll have better luck with Cygwin on windows, an SSh client, or...well...most other things for that matter. Python is not a bad place to be, but for sheer job potential there are better options (but they are less immediately rewarding/fun). Windows is the best platform for Accessibility, and Android is literally the worst (Linux, which has a lot of issues, is heaven by comparison). Dont think that Android is representative. Youll have accessibility issues, but probably not like that. For a tech job in programming, however, you probably want at least a Bachelors (that said, for just about everything you want at least an AA or AS these days). At least for now, stay away from the Microsoft stack as its got a ton of accessibility problems ()this may be changing, or so says some hints and things floating around, but dont expect anything big for a year or two; critical dialogs fail to read even now). You will have to fight for things, of course. You will work harder at first and possibly forever. The worst-case alternative is this: stuck at home, a vague sense of worthlessness, no prospects, and worry because you know when your friends/parents/whoever is dead/unwilling/something youre out in the cold. I dont say that to scare you, I say it because it can happen-whether its a worry in your situation depends on yo u, not me or my assessment of you. You want some way of making money: there are alternative paths such as running small businesses from home that blind people have managed to have success with, and some states have programs that teach you how to do things like run small stores or cafes (I am assuming US).URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=166736#p166736
Re: [Audiogames-reflector] Training Centers
Re: Training Centers So, Ive been at WSB for a little over 3 weeks.Im... slightly less terrified of using a stove?I dont know how much mobility can fit into the rest of this week, but I feel like its mostly just been testing what I already know, rather than anything I could really gain from. We did walk an area with no sidewalks, thank the light, and hopefully well do something with buses today.Mostly, its been a recap of everything I did in elementary school. If youve lost your vision later, or didnt receive proper training early on, its a good place for the basics. But I dont feel like Im going to leave here able to leave my home on my own, or travel unfamiliar environments or anything like that.Now, yeah, its only been 3 weeks. But the impression I get is that, if I stay on, it will be for a vocational program, and at most, there will be another week or two of cooking classes. And, yeah, Im glad I got those, but efficiency, man! If Im going to spend half a year or more stuck in an overly rulesy place with people with whom I share only lack of eyesight in common, then I want to come out of it more powerful than I was when I went in. And while getting better at fixing computers in just 4 or 5 months sounds nice, Im not sure if it sounds nice enough to justify it for someone as introverted as me (I have no interest in working a call center, to put it lightly).What Im wondering is, though, does an NFB center do better? From the sounds of their graduation requirements, the answer is an emphatic maybe. Its portrayed as a 6 month program, but Id rather not waste a month showing off and learning little more than how to use a stove. (can we throw in a mop and a broom, at least?)Ive been considering going back to college, too. Im wondering if I couldnt get more out of my time that way (especially if I can find someone to just give me the NFBs mobility graduation test repeatedly until I am become ninja).But at this point, Im lost enough that Im not even convinced on the rational-seeming strategy of just leaving WSB after the evaluation.So I suppose what I need to know is: seriously, is the NFBs training awesome enough to be worth me spending most of 2014 there instead of desperately trying to beat myself back onto last years schedule?I have to assume they cover everything WSB has covered, at least. But do they go farther? How much farther? How quickly? What kinds of restrictions are involved with living on campus? can I take off the sleep shades when Im not in class? Will there be some actual manics around so that the place is more motivating and less depressing when compared with WSB? Will there be [strikethrough]cult[/strikethrough]Group meetings, and will they be as annoying as WSBs?Do we have any NFB Center alums to provide anecdotes or answer questions, hereabouts?URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=166541#p166541 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com http://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: [Audiogames-reflector] Training Centers
Re: Training Centers Hello Cae. I dont have any personal experience of either of these organizations for obvious reasons, but one thing I would suggest from reading your posts is perhaps you are too much taken up with other peoples criteria of what is or is not useful, rather than finding things that work. For example, I am not clear by stove exactly what you mean. If you mean the rings on the top of the oven where you put pans to heat, then that is something I personaly never use (with the exception of pasta), simply because I cannot trust my spacial coordination t things like pouring hot liquidis or handling frying.However, I do vegitables in the microwave instead, and have a slow cooker for making chillies, stews, casserols and the like, (since this involves chucking all the ingredience in cold and then leaving the thing for six hours, theres no worries at all, plus it does an absolutely awsome! chilly). If I want to do something that usually needs frying such as bacon, sausages, burgers etc, well I use the good old George forman.I do use the inside of the oven quite a bit, as in throw stuff on a tray and chuck them in, but Ive got a pair of kevlar gloves for this, (yes they are actually kevlar), so have zero chance of burning my hands even if the oven is on full blast. Using these devices I can cook a variety of things, albeit I dont spend as much time cooking as I could do though that is more because there is only me to cook for than anything else.So, to be brutally honest Id ask what exactlyyou want to achieve and how is the best way of doing it, rather than deciding whether you can pass someone elses test or not. I also confess personally the black sleep shades and no mobility aides thing from the nfb gives me the absolute creeps, since frankly my spacial perception is bloody awful! and if I h ad neither my dog nor my remaining vision, Id seriously worry about even falling down an inside flight of stairs, and I have a great misstrust over step counting since I dont have the spacial perception to judge the distances inv involved, and without my sight or at least a cane Id lose a lot of my landmarks. Regarding mobility, well there are fairly straight forward cane techniques to walking in areas without pavements, indeed the center of durham has none, and though a guide dog is a superior solution its not a necessity. However again I would question the need for someone elses assessment, indeed personally I found many of the people imployed by local counsels etc to be involved with such assessment to be utter prats because they had no practical idea of what was! possible or what techniques were needed. Regarding busses, well that is frankly a pain, and I confess I personally avoid busses entirely as much as is humanly possible, indeed there is a big campaigne going on in Britain at the moment to get speaking announcements on all busses as opposed to just some, and that is really the only circumstances under which Id use a bus. Then again youve said before that in your living area its busses or bust as far as going anywhere goes, however again Id see about getting some specific assistance with this area rather than getting some general sort of mobility test taken, since with busses if there are no audio announcements you will need to find some clues as to when to get off, and those will be specific to each bus not generalized. All generalized technniques will teach you is how to get on and find a seat, but that wont help you specifically with your local busses unless you know when to get off.URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=166552#p16655 2 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com http://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: [Audiogames-reflector] Training Centers
Re: Training Centers Stoves are fine. Id not suggest trying to do a complicated recipe with one, but simple stuff-well, no big deal after you get over the this is hot bit. I boil stuff all the time-pasta and the like-and can do hamburgers/taco meat if the desire is there. Im of course not limited to these items-anything vaguely similar usually comes out okay. For me, the biggest problem isnt safety but rather knowing when things are done.Formeman grills are a godsend, of course, and the oven is no big deal if you get some good oven mitts (you probably do not want hot pads). Microwave, obviously, is doable.Talk to the WSB people and ask them if theyll do more advanced mobility. Thats my advice. Also, if you consider what theyre having you do is basic, then youre ahead of the usual student, Id say. And since they claim successful students come out the other side, well, yeah.For buses, we do have s poken announcements in the US. It depends greatly on where you are. Denver had spoken everything, including ticket kiosks. Florida manages to have some spoken stuff, and I am told and strongly believe Florida is backward, so finding it if you want it is more than likely doable in the US. That said, Blindsquare is a godsend for public transportation. Blindsquare is a godsend for everything. You can also ask the driver, but success with that varies. Avoidance of the bus is not an option save in very specific and uncommon living situations.I think that, if you can do better than a vocational program, you should. I dont know what theyre going to have you do, but fixing computers is actually not the most blind-friendly of jobs in the first place, and probably only pays minimum wage. The problem with college is that if you start and drop out halfway through, you leave with nothing that anyone else will recognize-you h ave to go all the way. From my experience, looking around before trying college is a good idea; with some looking, you can end up somewhere that can give you Braille and really good disability services. Ive got okay disability services here, but almost no alt text conversions; for anything that is math or science related, alt text is super, super important. before I found this out, everyone was telling me that a sighted reader was the norm; I found out over the summer that this is only a Florida thing, and that if I had left the state for the right place Id have had it. Unfortunately, Im too close to graduation to do so. If youre not confident in your mobility skills, Id suggest holding off. College campuses tend to be very large environments and, depending on where you are, may not be gridlike. That said, college campuses can be some of the safest environments for a blind person: everything you need for living should be close, and some colleges even have on-campus health services; people are wandering around all the time; you dont have a lot of violent crime in many cases; and traffic may or may not be uncommon and/or used to pedestrians.@darkSpatial perception can be worked on. This isnt an innate skill. My understanding is that the sleep shades is to try to make you work on it. If youve got partial vision, then its best to have these skills: your vision will probably get it wrong at some point. Ive done the sleep shades thing, and with enough vision left that it actually matters. If nothing else, it does help with learning to trust the cane and/or other mobility method. When I got my first guide dog, they were doing it, but didnt when I got my second; I think that this difference may or may not have to do with the fact that I was in the minor class the first time and the changes to their program about 2 years ago.Partial vision and landmarks does raise interesting points about guide dogs, too. I wonder how common guide dogs are among the totally blind vs. the partially blind. I do use some of my remaining vision to look for things sometimes, but kind of wonder if it wouldnt be easier for a totally blind person to find those kinds of things with a cane. Thinking back, I dont actually remember how many totally blind people were in the class with me. There were definitely some, of course. Id be interested to see statistics on this kind of thing.URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=166568#p166568 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com http://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: [Audiogames-reflector] Training Centers
Re: Training Centers Ok, this probably isnt going to be a very constructive post, and Im most likely going to end up just bitching, but heres my situation. Im 17, a junior in high school, and am living in a pretty rural area as well, about 3 miles or so out of town, which is pretty small. As far as I am aware we have no street markers or audible signals and sidewalks are not great either. I got some mobility training last year, but I am the only blind person in my school, so the teacher was on a contract, I believe out of a school district in a somewhat bigger city a ways away, and havent had any this year; I actually went back to my state school last semester, and never want to go there again under any circumstances. For public transportation we have a link that gets you to the main transit system which is for another city, and I have no idea how one would get there from anyware. My problem, aside from not having an instructor, is that quite frankly I have absolutely no motivation to practice anything, since I rarely if ever end up learning anything useful, and after several years of walking around with someone trying to get some worthwhile information Ive pretty much given up. I dont have great spatial perception: if I know how something is shaped I can get around fine, but getting the layout memorized is tricky, and Im terrible with tactile maps. As an example, when I was at my state school I had a class that was outsourced to the public high school (I would have had more than just one, but by the time I knew what public classes were open and when, theyd already assigned me to their substandard ones) and there was a street you crossed to get between the schools. Crossing the street was trivial, even to totally blind people like myself, but in addition I have a hearing loss and a huge problem with veering, and the mobility instructor I was working with basically just had me keep doing things repetitively, as if I would just walk in a straight line from pure memorization or something. Eventually I found out on my own how the tactile markers worked, which was that there were two of them and you could walk between them trailing on one or the other, and never had a problem with that street again, but apparently thats not how most people teach, at least around here. So I have basically zero travel experience around where I live, and the fact that theres been a substantial amount of snow on the ground for a while isnt helping. Im actually dreading graduating, since Ive absolutely no idea what Im going to do afterwords. I know a bit of html, though not enough to be useful, and am endeavouring to learn python and basic computer science concepts from an open online MIT course. I know my way around windows very well, and am constantly tweaking my installations to try and get better performance. Ive got a pretty good backup scheme, which is basically to put all the data Ive amassed (books, shows, software, music, lisence keys, etc) under one folder on portable hard drives, and then copy either the whole thing or selected parts of it to each of my computers so its redundant, so I can format one or more hard drives without a problem. Ive fixed family and friends computers in the past, so thats something I could do up to a point, but my skills pretty much end when pictures or complex bloatware programs like microsoft office get involved. I also have a fair bit of experience with linux on the command line, but dont really see how that would be useful except in a high-level business server environment, and I highly doubt they would have speakup. Ive been pretty sure I wanted to do something in the tech field, if only because its the only thing Ive got much skill at, but after getting an android phone and trying to set it up so I could wipe the phone and still get talkback support independently and fa iling, Im beginning to wonder whether Ill be able to keep up in terms of things being accessible. The mentality around here in schools is that you should choose a career you want to have, and then do a lot of research, shadowing etc. Youre generally expected to pick something and stick to it unless you dont like it, and most people have something by the time theyre my age, but not knowing where I could use my skills its hard to say anything definitively, and thats probably going to start affecting my grade. In terms of cooking I can use a stove and an oven if I have gloves (which I currently do not), but I have a pathological fear of getting burned and cant pour hot liquids very well. Also our current stove is a flat surface without defined burners of any sort, so I mostly just use a microwave when at all possible. Comunicating with people over pretty much any distance is problematic to say the least because of my hearing loss. I m terrible at speaking up to people because half the time I dont know if theyre even talking to me. Resturaunts, to name one are a nightmare, since I almost always end up looking like
Re: [Audiogames-reflector] Training Centers
Re: Training Centers @Camlorn, interesting that all busses in the Us have audio announcements. In the Uk its really only something that has started in the past few years, and the only place you can be %100 certain of getting audio announcements is London. In many other areas it is left up to the company, which makes it practically useless since Im not going to get on a bus and risk having no audio, Id rather pay for a taxi or use something like the train or metro which always has announcements. I gave up on the ask the driver bit when one didnt actually bother and I finished up about half an hour out of my way. Regarding vision and spacial location, well with me it goes a bit further. I suffered brain damage at birth, and though I havent had many of the defects that most people have, my spacial perception is considderably worse than most blind peoples. this is one reason I got very familiar with using a cane since often even if I could seesomething wit h my remaining vision Id end up walking into it unless I got a clear indicator stop, ie, hitting it with a cane. This is also where I developed the land marks method for navigation, since rather than relying on my faulty spacial perception, it worked on something I know that does work, my memory. Not all my landmarks are visual of course, some are tactile, some audio, some even smell based, but equally some are visual, thus Id lose access to a certain category. This is also where Ive found a guide dog helpful since I no longer have to be constantly allert both for landmarks and obstacles, and can concentrate on landmark location and memorization while reever does things like walk around people, I also can trust reever to do things like find certain objects such as doors and stairs rather than having to work out a landmark system for locating them, for example instead of having to find a ticket keosk in a station by tr acking the wall until i found a landmark such as a glowing hoarding or a passage out, then turning to find it, I can simply ask reever to find the counter and she will. This is why I personally am not a fan of that system though i do see the logic. Regarding colidge, I agree on university campuses being easy to navigate. four out of the six universities I applied to were all campus based, and ironically I went to one of the two that wasnt. Then again one advantage I will say is that living in a city university has let me work around a city and then find a flat when i could no longer live in colidge residence, which has worked out well, albeit Ill likely be commuting around the country soon attending oppera school.URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=166593#p166593 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com http://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: [Audiogames-reflector] Training Centers
Re: Training Centers This post is probably going to be zero help since youre looking for advice on training centers, and Ive never been near one. But here are some tips and things I did when I was leaving home and learning. Many skills only come from practice and experience.Spacial perception is important. Touch the cold burners of the stove. memorize where they are. Learn your clocks; 3:00 is medium high, 6:00 is medium on the stove dial (generally). Practice pouring a full pot of cold water into a strainer sitting in the sink basin so you can get the feel of the space. Kick everyone out of the kitchen and explore it. Feel up all the appliances. Reach into the cold oven and learn where everything is. Touch the heating elements. Pull the racks in and out. Feel the rack grooves along the sides. Feel the space in between the top and middle rack.I started out cooking from cold to hot. Id pour in a little oil (my grandma told me a cap full). Id cut up the hotdogs, put them in the pan, and only then turn on the stove to medium, or whatever. I knew they were done when I felt them being crispy against my stirring tool. I did a lot of taste testing at first. I probably ate some raw hotdogs. Ive tasted undercooked pasta. It taught me what times to use in future.When using the oven, wear long sleeves. Get an elbow-length oven mit. Pull out the rack, do your thing, and then push it back in and close the door. I blistered my arm once really well before I learned about pulling the rack out.Let your water cool before straining if youre nervous. Even today, when pouring tea into a pitcher, Ill let the pot cool so I can brace it against my arm and hold the pitcher steady with my other hand so I know where it is.I was terrified of being burned at first. With practice, I learned how to carefully explore. When looking for the edge of a hot pot, Ill hold out two fingers and aim to hit the edge lower down on my finger , not the tip. Practice with cold pots first. Eventually, fill all four burners with cold full pots until you can find them with relative ease.You need to become comfortable with the space youre working in. Practice as much as you can safely with cold nine by thirteen baking dishes in and out of the oven. Because you have to use both hands, those can be tricky. Realize that bad things will happen, and its ok. I get popped on my bare arms by hot grease pretty regularly. Now that its happened, Im not nervous about it. Ive singed my fingers on pots before, so now its no big deal. I probably overcook my ground beef, (for ten minutes), but I want to be very sure the texture is good and crumbled so I know its done. You will rely on exact timing at first. Something may say to bake for twenty minutes. Youll eat it, it wont be done, and youll know in future to cook it longer.In summation of the ramble, I love cooking. I love the kitchen. I taught myself to cook by first becoming very familiar with my flat-topped stove and my oven. I worked with cold things first. I think thats an important first step to overcome the fear of being burned. You have to be comfortable and familiar. Learn your kitchen like you know your house. You dont have to flail around to find the fridge. When things are hot on the stove, reach with care, and try not to use your fingertips.I hope that helped slightly anyway.URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=166608#p166608 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com http://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: [Audiogames-reflector] Training Centers
Re: Training Centers This post is probably going to be zero help since youre looking for advice on training centers, and Ive never been near one. But here are some tips and things I did when I was leaving home and learning. Many skills only come from practice and experience.Spacial perception is important. Touch the cold burners of the stove. memorize where they are. Learn your clocks; 3:00 is medium high, 6:00 is medium on the stove dial (generally). Practice pouring a full pot of cold water into a strainer sitting in the sink basin so you can get the feel of the space. Kick everyone out of the kitchen and explore it. Feel up all the appliances. Reach into the cold oven and learn where everything is. Touch the heating elements. Pull the racks in and out. Feel the rack grooves along the sides. Feel the space in between the top and middle rack.I started out cooking from cold to hot. Id pour in a little oil (my grandma told me a cap full). Id cut up the hotdogs, put them in the pan, and only then turn on the stove to medium, or whatever. I knew they were done when I felt them being crispy against my stirring tool. I did a lot of taste testing at first. I probably ate some raw hotdogs. Ive tasted undercooked pasta. It taught me what times to use in future.When using the oven, wear long sleeves. Get an elbow-length oven mit. Pull out the rack, do your thing, and then push it back in and close the door. I blistered my arm once really well before I learned about pulling the rack out.Let your water cool before straining if youre nervous. Even today, when pouring tea into a pitcher, Ill let the pot cool so I can brace it against my arm and hold the pitcher steady with my other hand so I know where it is.I was terrified of being burned at first. With practice, I learned how to carefully explore. When looking for the edge of a hot pot, Ill hold out two fingers and aim to hit the edge lower down on my finger , not the tip. Practice with cold pots first. Eventually, fill all four burners with cold full pots until you can find them with relative ease.You need to become comfortable with the space youre working in. Practice as much as you can safely with cold nine by thirteen baking dishes in and out of the oven. Because you have to use both hands, those can be tricky. Realize that bad things will happen, and its ok. I get popped on my bare arms by hot grease pretty regularly. Now that its happened, Im not nervous about it. Ive singed my fingers on pots before, so now its no big deal. I probably overcook my ground beef, (for ten minutes), but I want to be very sure the texture is good and crumbled so I know its done. You will rely on exact timing at first. Something may say to bake for twenty minutes. Youll eat it, it wont be done, and youll know in future to cook it longer.In summation of the ramble, I love cooking. I love the kitchen. I taught myself to cook by first becoming very familiar with my flat-topped stove and my oven. I worked with cold things first. I think thats an important first step to overcome the fear of being burned. You have to be comfortable and familiar. Learn your kitchen like you know your house. You dont have to flail around to find the fridge. When things are hot on the stove, reach with care, and try not to use your fingertips.I hope that helped slightly anyway.PS. I read in a book somewhere about exploring with vertical movements, not horizontal. When working on the stove, try not to reach horizontally with your fingertips. Think more about multiple gentle touches downward with more of your hand.URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=166608#p166608 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com http://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: [Audiogames-reflector] Training Centers
Re: Training Centers At Wanderer: It may have been mostly bitching, but it was glorious, glorious, relatable bitching. A lot like what I would have said when I was 17 if Id realized what a mess I was in. ... A lot like what I would say right now if screen readers and the forum settings could render strikethrough correctly (I only just recently realized how wonderful a gimmick it can be for satire, so long as it isnt overused).Halfway through your post, I considered that you might benefit from WSB... then I read the rest of it and decided youd almost definitely hate it. At Dark: Im not too picky about which specific cooking implements I get good at; I just want to not live out of the microwave (getting my life expectancy up is going to be tricky enough without processed preservative-bathed stuff making up a huge portion of my diet). It just so happens that all wev e gotten to so far is the stovetop. I still wouldnt try to tackle the oven at this point (crockpot maybe; I havent actually examined the controls on one, yet).The idea of the NFB sleepshades bug me, too, and my vision isnt really even useful anymore. But really, I dont particularly like having my head obstructed in general (even if its a mask or helmet with eyeholes. Something to do with... I dunno, hearing through the face?). I dont think its a bad idea for them to be required during classes, necessarily, but it sounds like they might overdo it to the point of unnecessary medical risk.Buses are pretty much a necessity, though. Passenger trains in the US are hardly even a thing, outside of the biggest cities like New York and Chicago (and I think a huge portion of the east coast is connected by train, but I dont live near the east coast, so feh). If youre lucky, you might be near an Amtrack station. (I was kinda bug ged to discover that my town--in the top 5 in the state, size-wise--doesnt even have a grayhound station. Id need to get an intercity cab to the nearest one (about 55 miles away), and thatd be more expensive than taking a plane from our dinky little airport that only flies between here and St Louis.) This is a country where youre pretty much expected to drive, period. Its quite frustrating.What Id like are generally applicable skills (Or at least a smart phone; Blindsquare sounds worth a serious look). The last time my parents went to Disney World, they ran into a blind guy there on his own (I wouldnt be surprised if this was during the NFB convention; they hold them in Orlando, IIRC). Meanwhile, the most independence of travel I ever had was at college, and that was limited to campus, and took a great deal of getting lost in the quietest part of the night to figure out. (Disclaimer: tried to avoid getting lost during the day. H elpful people are annoying as often as they are helpful. Emphasis on tried.)Its interesting how little my parents know what Im capable of, mobility-wise; my dad freaked out when I tried to cross a (very) quiet street by myself (meanwhile, getting to the health services building at college was actually kinda scary, what with having to cross a parking lot and a moderately busy street. Theres a much busier street that runs between the oldest part of campus and the newer parts, but theres an overpass for that, and recently they added a tunnel, not that there was ever congestion on the overpass. Heck, even when the Sword fighting club had a huge event there, with people locked in mortal combat running all over it, there were no civilian casualties.)In spite of this, Im pretty screwed if I try to go anywhere I dont already know. And I dont know much of anywhere that isnt a house/school. (Though I might could manage a t the Magic Kingdom, at this point, for whatever thats worth. )So, yeah. I have been thinking I should try to see if I can talk my mobility instructor at WSB to let me play on hard mode. I like the NFB mobility final test; it sounds like it gets the job done (but see: everything NFB online ever is propaganda, so who knows if Im reading it right). I doubt the NFB hands out iPhones to all their students, so even without that sort of money, there must be a way to do better.URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=166628#p166628 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com http://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: [Audiogames-reflector] Training Centers
Re: Training Centers I agree with pretty much everything you said, Turtlepower.Id start such a thing myself, had I the prerequisites (in this case, I think theyre slightly higher than for all the other stuff Id do myself if not for excuses.).URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=162233#p162233 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com http://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: [Audiogames-reflector] Training Centers
Re: Training Centers I agree with pretty much everything you said, Turtlepower.Id start such a thing myself, had I the prerequisites (in this case, I think theyre slightly higher than for all the other stuff Id do myself if not for excuses.).All of Camlorns points are bothersomely true, though (hence, the WSB trial).URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=162233#p162233 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com http://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: [Audiogames-reflector] Training Centers
Re: Training Centers CAE_Jones,I can absolutely understand your desire to get training, and it sounds to me as though you have the right mindset for it. In addition, youre doing the right thing in questioning locations, techniques, philosophies, all the things that should be important when choosing to spend 9 months of your life getting training.I worked at BLIND Inc., the NFB training center here in Minneapolis, from March of 2010 to April of 2013, and I would be more than willing to help in whatever way I can. I know, given some of the content of this and many other threads Ive seen abroad, that there are very mixed opinions on the NFB and consumer organizations in general, and I completely understand that.My goal in writing this, though, is not to proselytize on the NFB or a particular training center; Im sure youve seen plenty of that elsewhere already. My hope is that I can provide some information from having worked inside the system, plus my general exp erience working in consumer advocacy, to help you make your decision and clear up any questions you have.I wont pretend to have all the answers, but if I can help, Id like to.URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=162257#p162257 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com http://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: [Audiogames-reflector] Training Centers
Re: Training Centers So, I finally found this:http://www.charitynavigator.org/index.c … tfAGftPxn8(There are related organizations linked after the main report.)The NFBs score is mediocre at best. Colorado Center for the Blind scores a tier higher. There are a few other schools/organizations listed.Im not sure that the presentation here is entirely accessible; I was left kinda guessing what half of what I was reading meant. Maybe you need to read the sites FAQ or something.(It took digging deep into the Google search results to find this. NFB mouthpieces clutter up everything related to them.)URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=162152#p162152 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com http://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: [Audiogames-reflector] Training Centers
Re: Training Centers Colorado is nice. Ive been. I cant speak to their center, but its apparently popular, and is also a popular area for blind people in general as far as I can tell. Great public transportation, too (Im sure everyone now knows what my criteria number 1 is for ideal living environment).EternalPower17, heres a thing. They dont need nor want to compete, not really. This isnt a product that you pay for usually. In addition, its not normally a product at all-your organization is going to have their favorite training method/facility, and is going to shoehorn you into that. Also, given that you dont pay, theyre kind of dependent on funding and money from other sources in most cases. So...the lets run this as a business logic kinda goes out the window. Also also, a lot of people are going to go to the closest anyway, and the density of blindness training centers isnt really one on every corner, after all. To top that, the organizations (i.e. the NFB) that would normally rate them already have their own or already have a favorite, making them very non-neutral.URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=162159#p162159 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com http://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: [Audiogames-reflector] Training Centers
Re: Training Centers Yes, I see where youre coming from, but a website like Im proposing wouldnt hurt. I dont really have the technical knowhow to start such a thing, although Id be willing to invest time in moderating the forums, writing to training centers to see if theyre interested in providing any kind of description or testimonials, and anything else that would be needed, as long as it didnt have to do with building the website itself.I think you have a point, but I disapprove of the fact that a lot of people will say that the NFB is the only way to go. I know there are abysmal training centers out there that are non-NFB -affiliated, but they never seem to get the same fair treatment. My personal feelings about the NFB aside, I think its time that someone tries to remedy this situation. I want people who want to attend training centers to make an informed choice, to know, as much as humanly possible, what theyre getting into.I thi nk, and I honestly mean no offense by saying this, that many people run off to a training center without thinking through the whole decision first, just because they want to escape an undesirable or stifling situation. Ive known people who have done this, and come out worse for it. I can relate to it myself wanting to be anywhere but here, but that is no reason to just dive headfirst into something as momentous as this. Im not saying that anyone here said that, its just a huge reason why there needs to be a comprehensive resource such as the one Im thinking about.On a side note, Im sure lots of people will try to flock to the Colorado training center now, seeing as how pot is legal in that state and all.URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=162210#p162210 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com http://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
[Audiogames-reflector] Training Centers
Training Centers As you have doubtless learned by now, I am fail. So Ive been looking into training of some sort or another.But research on the organizations in the US is difficult! You may recall that I could find no link between formal training and notability, but its more bothersome than that.Ive been leaning toward the NFB centers throughout most of this, because its so stupidly difficult to find anything with better PR, or at least a decent review of an NFB center not written by the NFB, so all I get about them is positive.In contrast, the leading opponent for my attendance, World Services for the Blind, has spawned multiple horror stories. Yet someone always pops up and insists that changes are being made a couple years after said stories get published.Were I to go for an NFB center, Id want to aim for the one in Colorado (WSB is closer to me than any NFB center, which I hope should be explanation enough for why Im not particularly excited about the Louisiana center). That ones hardest to find information on (apparently a spam warlord set up a copy of their site to advertise the sorts of things spambots advertise).All the opinions I find on the NFB centers come down to either NFB members singing their praises (which is similar to WSB staff singing WSB praises), or complaints about four specific things (Sleep shades, NFB canes, guidedog policies that may or may not actually exist, and the NFBs general attitude).But I dont care about the politics of it; I want some bloody independence. The real kind, like my sighted sister has. Will I actually learn those skills from any of these places? And how l ong will it take? Not gonna lie, I spent 2013 not doing anything useful, and I dont want to disappear off the face of the development scene for six to ten months on the heels of that.I talked with my new DSB person last week about this, and it turns out that WSB does a 30 day no-commitment trial. I decided this would be a decent compromise: shes clearly affiliated with them, and my parents would prefer someplace closer, and I could maybe even talk people I know in the area to make an appearance... oh, and having a much shorter-term evaluation period is very nice (the thing to do with a hypothesis is to test it, after all). And she did suggest that if WSB doesnt work out, we could look into somewhere else.Does anyone have any up-to-date (as in, the past 3 years) info on any of these programs? NFB, WSB, some other program I havent mentioned (after all, this is an international community), anythings game.URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=162007#p162007 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com http://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: [Audiogames-reflector] Training Centers
Re: Training Centers One thing you have been pretty vague on is your end game? Training for what, what are you trying to accomplish? I could share personal experience and give advice if you give a bit more in to what you want out of these types of programs.URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=162025#p162025 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com http://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: [Audiogames-reflector] Training Centers
Re: Training Centers I want to not live with my parents, not live in a place filled with mold and dirt and pests, not be stuck at a computer for the rest of my life, not be too lacking-in-money to accomplish anything, travel without having to consult relatives, and heck, why Im at it, become the Batman (or at least Robin) and be able to cook, and deal with dental/medical/etc issues without going through relatives, and get back into Aikido, and get in good enough shape that I might actually survive the next decade, and I wouldnt mind having friends within bullet-blocking distance. So, basically, the things all the not-impoverished sighted people (such as my little sister) take for granted.URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=162029#p162029 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com http://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: [Audiogames-reflector] Training Centers
Re: Training Centers For right now, all I really need out of a blindness center is cane travel/mobility, and lots of it. I seriously would be content waking up and spending all day, every day, for a few months, just working on mobility cane travel, since my skills are seriously that bad. A combination of bad instructors for a few years, followed by no instruction for a few years, followed by more bad instruction leaves me in a pretty bad place. I have no idea how, for instance, public transportation works around here, or anywhere, for that matter. Dont ask me how to cross a street safely, because I dont know. As you can tell, serious issues, and I have no idea what to do about it.I figured a center could also help me with other blindness skills, too, like general stuff to do around your house, cooking, etc. Since I already know braille inside and out, I figured I could learn print – that might prove useful. But I have no idea what center to go to, Id prefer something for as long as possible, like the 9-month NFB ones...But as you say, theres no real information. And nobody around here even listens to what I have to say. Interrupt college for some blindness bullshit? No way! Even though this blindness bullshit as they call it is really damn important and useful.URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=162039#p162039 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com http://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: [Audiogames-reflector] Training Centers
Re: Training Centers Hi CAE,Im pretty much in the same situation, except for me, its college, plus all the dependence. Translation: I cant get around campus or do anything else without help, and its really, really annoying. And whats worse is, the parentals dont see this as a problem. Its really quite depressing and I have no idea what the hell to do. I think a blindness center would help; but nobody else seems to agree. Throw in the fact that, as you say, theres no real information on these places, and you can see that Im pretty much screwed.URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=162036#p162036 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com http://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: [Audiogames-reflector] Training Centers
Re: Training Centers The below is my opinion and thoughts on this subject. Im loving alone in a college dorm, with some help from parents and others to get to the grocery store. I have plans to fix that; they involve leaving the state for somewhere where you can use public transportation to take a 20-minute car trip in under two or three hours. We have no light rail, minimal bus systems, and the one that does the blind-specific stuff just got taken to court and is claiming its going to reform. I handle everything else; cooking, cleaning, all that.What you need is probably a residency program. I dont know how much you have already. I cant personally speak to any of the training centers; my parents took it on themselves at a young age, mostly because the formal training *can* suck and, in their experience (I was too young to remember), had a lot of really strange ideas (like you should encourage your blind child to play with their food).& nbsp; The thing with formal training is this: some people are going to benefit tremendously. If you dont get it at a young age, thats quite possibly you-I had parents and the school system helped once I got to high school (the one I was at before that thought blind people should go sit in the corner, otherwise they might get hurt). Post grade school, there isnt much you get without working for it.A good program will give you the skills to live alone, definitely. Youre probably not going to be close to home though. In fact, given the previous descriptions of your living arrangements in the middle of nowhere (wolves were mentioned once, as I recall), youre probably going to have to move far to get what you want. I plan to do likewise-good, exceptional, overdone, and popular public transportation is a must, and we dont have tat in Florida. The hardest part isnt going to be cleaning or cooking or w hat-have-you, its going to be the physical trip to the grocery store and back, at least in my opinion. For the moving part, do some homework on public transportation and aim for places with it. Also note that such a program will only give you basic skills; youre going to have to develop beyond them. Youll be fine, just, youll still spend a lot of times discovering tricks or having problems they didnt even discuss in class. I dont know much about current options. Depending on how far along and/or capable you are, expect at least some frustration as they try to teach you things you know, or try to make you do things a less-than-optimal way. I think that the lack of link between formal training and success is because of two things: first, were a minority group and the statistics may be lacking. Second, the kind of person who would benefit from formal training is the kind of person who looks for i t, and Id have to say that the kind of person who looks for it is already halfway there-they know theres a problem, and are working on fixing it. I.e, if they cant get it, theyll at least try to find another way. Ive seen training forced on a blind person a couple times, and the resistance just makes it meaningless; and that situations isnt uncommon as youd think, especially in the public school system (they have to try to do their best, even if you dont). The willingness has to be there. I am not saying, by any stretch of the imagination, that willingness is guaranteed success; it is merely a component of it. If your goal is employment, consider cultivating your programming skill somehow, possibly college or an internship or something. There is somewhat of a push to get blind people into computer science, so you might be able to find something through one of these organizations. F or living arrangements, half of the good quality is your personal ability to maintain it (cleaning, repairs, furniture, even noticing that somethings off in the first place), and half of it is where you are (good building, repair services, sighted help when you absolutely must have it or else, ability to get to random stores for random things you didnt know you needed). The important thing here is that you can bring these things together and end up with something satisfactory. For friends and/or a social life, well, that depends on a whole lot, and is highly situation and location specific.As for where? Changes or no, those articles you posted should be enough to steer you clear of that organization. One on its own is iffy, but they have certain similarities that raise a whole lot of red flags. Also, it looks--from those articles--like they are pushing you to be in the IRS. Government is a kind of good place to be, simply b ecause they have accessibility requirements; if its not what you want to do, however, then thats another good reason to possibly avoid that program. I dont know what the NFB one tries to get you a job as. A job is certainly going to be part of this recipe, or at least some method by which you can make money, and you obviously want to not hate it if at all possible.Edit (I started
Re: [Audiogames-reflector] Training Centers
Re: Training Centers The below is my opinion and thoughts on this subject. Im loving alone in a college dorm, with some help from parents and others to get to the grocery store. I have plans to fix that; they involve leaving the state for somewhere where you can use public transportation to take a 20-minute car trip in under two or three hours. We have no light rail, minimal bus systems, and the one that does the blind-specific stuff just got taken to court and is claiming its going to reform. I handle everything else; cooking, cleaning, all that.What you need is probably a residency program. I dont know how much you have already. I cant personally speak to any of the training centers; my parents took it on themselves at a young age, mostly because the formal training *can* suck and, in their experience (I was too young to remember), had a lot of really strange ideas (like you should encourage your blind child to play with their food).& nbsp; The thing with formal training is this: some people are going to benefit tremendously. If you dont get it at a young age, thats quite possibly you-I had parents and the school system helped once I got to high school (the one I was at before that thought blind people should go sit in the corner, otherwise they might get hurt). Post grade school, there isnt much you get without working for it.A good program will give you the skills to live alone, definitely. Youre probably not going to be close to home though. In fact, given the previous descriptions of your living arrangements in the middle of nowhere (wolves were mentioned once, as I recall), youre probably going to have to move far to get what you want. I plan to do likewise-good, exceptional, overdone, and popular public transportation is a must, and we dont have tat in Florida. The hardest part isnt going to be cleaning or cooking or w hat-have-you, its going to be the physical trip to the grocery store and back, at least in my opinion. For the moving part, do some homework on public transportation and aim for places with it. Also note that such a program will only give you basic skills; youre going to have to develop beyond them. Youll be fine, just, youll still spend a lot of times discovering tricks or having problems they didnt even discuss in class. I dont know much about current options. Depending on how far along and/or capable you are, expect at least some frustration as they try to teach you things you know, or try to make you do things a less-than-optimal way. I think that the lack of link between formal training and success is because of two things: first, were a minority group and the statistics may be lacking. Second, the kind of person who would benefit from formal training is the kind of person who looks for i t, and Id have to say that the kind of person who looks for it is already halfway there-they know theres a problem, and are working on fixing it. I.e, if they cant get it, theyll at least try to find another way. Ive seen training forced on a blind person a couple times, and the resistance just makes it meaningless; and that situations isnt uncommon as youd think, especially in the public school system (they have to try to do their best, even if you dont). The willingness has to be there. I am not saying, by any stretch of the imagination, that willingness is guaranteed success; it is merely a component of it. If your goal is employment, consider cultivating your programming skill somehow, possibly college or an internship or something. There is somewhat of a push to get blind people into computer science, so you might be able to find something through one of these organizations. F or living arrangements, half of the good quality is your personal ability to maintain it (cleaning, repairs, furniture, even noticing that somethings off in the first place), and half of it is where you are (good building, repair services, sighted help when you absolutely must have it or else, ability to get to random stores for random things you didnt know you needed). The important thing here is that you can bring these things together and end up with something satisfactory. For friends and/or a social life, well, that depends on a whole lot, and is highly situation and location specific.As for where? Changes or no, those articles you posted should be enough to steer you clear of that organization. One on its own is iffy, but they have certain similarities that raise a whole lot of red flags. Also, it looks--from those articles--like they are pushing you to be in the IRS. Government is a kind of good place to be, simply b ecause they have accessibility requirements; if its not what you want to do, however, then thats another good reason to possibly avoid that program. I dont know what the NFB one tries to get you a job as. A job is certainly going to be part of this recipe, or at least some method by which you can make money, and you obviously want to not hate it if at all possible.URL:
Re: [Audiogames-reflector] Training Centers
Re: Training Centers Ok cae.Firstly, this is going to be harsh.not to you but on your topic.You can call me a no good bastard if you want I dont mind.Firstly, you need to know what you want round about.I am 31 years old now and should know.I hate to burst things but my experiences were less than favorable.School life was a standard thing.I got some training and courses at my local centre for the basics.Later on at 20 I attended uni and again it was ok.I also went to a flatting course for indipendance training, they were going through a shuffle and there were slack moments and other things that I did not find usefull.I came back home prity much the same as I came in maybe not the same but still mostly what I was when I went in to the program.I then spent about 6 years searching for work.Initially I got a good carrier adviser that told me where to go what to do etc and what agencies to get into.For the first 3 year s in uni with this arrangement I was doing ok.Then the entire polocy of the organisation I am in changed, its the only one really existing for blind here though.Things started going wrong.stuff I asked for from one agency always had issues computers that came from the cheapest vender failed constantly.Even though I was able to survive for 2 years with this I was happy when it finally failed.Screen reading and other software came later than expected in one case at the end of a course which I although passed had someone simply do for me and therefore have only theory for it which was not anything because, of various issues of things not happening at the right time.After struggling through uni for 3 years I left mainly because I had encountered a visual section that I could not get round, sertainly I did not manage to get as high as I would have got.After that I continue to struggle, I played piano, dont much anymore and a few other thing s.I pushed for a job but places that I was told were now what were officially recomended did not have anything.Eventually I thought fuck it and quit entirely.Worse was to come.I decided to go back to 2 agencies I was recomended as a last resort.I was able to finnish my cv and for a time this was ok, I even went back to coledge for a term of studdy under my own expence.But it was not to be, between high burnout and slackness, they did not happen.Finally I simply told my parents that enough was enough and that I was not prepaired to wait anymore.I had tried my best and it was not enough.I decided to switch from trying to look to simply aiming for projects, trying to network as much as I could putting myself out hoping for a bite.This has not been that successfull either but I have got more than nothing some of the work is not as constant as I would like but its work.A great deal of it well 2-3 times year is univer sity research, that while boring does get me out and engages my mind in debait and has a decent wage.I have also done one off projects for some business schools, well one and a limited contract with the government.I have also done one company website testing and was assured I would have a position if work ever came up.That sounds impressive but its really not.most of those are one offs, the contract ended as suddenly as it began, the research though highly paying is only 2 hours or so every 6 months or less and is not garenteed sometimes there is nothing and that may eventually end.Online, I have done a few gaming tests for blind adrenaline, one off testing, spoonbill again one off, usagames and vipgameszone but most of those have ended now.My latest has been with pkb group now dead and now ks and reality gaming which are ok but not payed ofcause.As for training centres.You want it you get it.You need to find it and it may not ex ist.So after all that ramble what I really am trying to say is that for me although I did get some skills they didnt change me much, I am still looking for that big gold house in the sky.Its a possibility, but there is probably a good chance that I will never hit it.My field as computer tech is limited, so many graphics, so many other things.To be honest between my years 20 though to 28 I was ready to tackle the world head on.Now, I dont know.Id like to if I found an opening but I am happy to wait.ofcause once I hit 50-60, I will probably not be caring anymore who knows.It still gets me down sometimes I dont have a job.Cae, dont raise your expectations to high.I was aiming high, a normal job, normal work, a family, a normal life.Things even in work have changed, family including my brother who has only just started a job last year says that a lot of stuff is dumped on you these days and y ou are expected to know more than you do.The way things were before has changed a lot.Right now my main focus is to get out there and do as much as I can.Most of it will probably be for nothing or not to much.Another thing cae, have you ever thought about leaving home.How much are you payed in your benefit.I also dont say this litely.At
Re: [Audiogames-reflector] Training Centers
Re: Training Centers At scotf: I had plenty of time over breaks, or when I wasnt in class, to get mobility lessons on campus, but they were specific to campus, and dependant on what mobility I already had. Even then, most of the routes I learned were more like tips than anything; I effectively rewrote my entire mental map of the campus after two years when I decided Screw it and went outside with a tape-recorder (I dont remember if I even brought my cane for that... I got lost at one point because I ran out of any territory I was familiar with to get a good recording of a passing train. I still managed to get back before I ran out of tape, somehow (its a small campus).).It also hurt that ESVI dissolved right around the time I enrolled, and getting a mobility instructor to help became a matter of me contacting one. And it turned out that the email address I gave my instructor got eaten when my webhost redid their email system (the redoing made it inaccessible, in add ition to destroying most of the mailboxes Id delegated to different functions). She did give my brailist a few useful tips on mobility instruction, and he was much easier to access, so theres that.If you can get in contact with a local organization that knows what theyre talking about, or local disability services (here its called Department of Services for the Blind, and is an extension of DHS), that might be a good place to start, unless youve tried this and everyone was unhelpful, in which case... blah, I might consider consulting one of the people I previously mentioned to see if they can come up with anything (depends on where you live).At Camlorn:(It was coyotes, actually, but close enough. )Im not fond of the idea of moving elsewhere, though I wont deny that it has its advantages (this can be one o f the top ten US towns for Cheapskates all it wants; its still an iffy place to live if you arent a particular type of person). I have property with a beat-up mobile home (You might as well call it Thesiuss Trailer by the time I get it livable), which is conveniently within walking distance of a bus stop (On basically the only path by foot I could manage in this town, by some voodoo magic).The public transit here is... minimalist. The government said they needed it, so they commissioned some buses, wrote some regulations to keep their work to a minimum, and called it an economical transit system. Based on my research (which may or may not be accurate, since this state doesnt seem to believe in keeping its online information up to date), I could in theory access the mall, Wal-mart and ... city hall? from that property. Id still need to learn a good deal (I mean, I can get to the parking lot across the street from the bus stop. I might e ven be able to find my way to the bus by scurrying across the street and hiding by a sign or something until I hear an idling diesel engine. I could even figure out when its stopping somewhere useful. I would be pretty much stuck as soon as I step off the bus, though. And how would I even find what Im looking for in a store without help and/or a super iPhone?).This doesnt account for all the places not on the bus routes, though. Even in the unlikely event that I wind up at a place that uses sidewalks intelligently (those appear to be scarce, here), Id need to tell Home Depot from Radio Shack from Shoe Carnival from Peer1. (... those might have been bad examples. Shoe Carnival smells like shoes, and hardware stores are kinda obvious, especially at the sidewalk level. But I think you get the idea.)Going back to school is probably not a bad idea. Or at least, it wouldnt be if I wasnt already in $8 of debt from the last time I botched that.URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=162054#p162054 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com http://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
