Re: Developing on Windows VS. Mac
Re: Developing on Windows VS. Mac @27: oh, for sure. That's why I still have a Windows machine around here. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/605959/#p605959 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Developing on Windows VS. Mac
Re: Developing on Windows VS. Mac my opinion, and it's just mine, is that it's better to have both of them. windows can have it's bad things, so can mac. hits doesn't mean that mac can go to hell or windows can do that. they both have their downsides, indeed, different ones. but still. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/605947/#p605947 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Developing on Windows VS. Mac
Re: Developing on Windows VS. Mac @25: I'm defending Mac as what I think it is good for. I'm not forcing you to agree with my views. The Mac is more than good enough for me in many, many cases. I can, and do, join Teams and Zoom meetings, although Zoom on the Mac is interesting, write essays, papers, etc. in Pages, mix/produce in Logic, write code in Xcode, and browse Canvas/other sites with Safari with no problems. Windows still wins in a lot of ways, programming in Python, it's a hell of a lot more open, more things are built for it, etc. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/605907/#p605907 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Developing on Windows VS. Mac
Re: Developing on Windows VS. Mac @17 thanks, I didnt know VO had single letter navigation. knowing that would have made my experience with mac much better. but websites not working with VO +safari/chrome and working with NVDA + chrome/firefox/edge still stands, as well as VO not having a review cursor.really dont understand people defending a suboptimal platform. so far everyone defending mac + VO just saying that it is usable. I think we all know it is usable, but is it anywhere near as productive as NVDA or JAWS. noone can say it is and that's is the whole point why I recommend against mac, at least for people who are fully blind.you are just paying more for something that is less productive.only thing VO had over NVDA that I can remember is screen curtain, which is no longer true. and command pallet is kind of neat, although for NVDA you can use the input gestures dialogue to look up commands albeit a little more finger action to open it up. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/605849/#p605849 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Developing on Windows VS. Mac
Re: Developing on Windows VS. Mac @17 thanks, I didnt know VO had single letter navigation. knowing that would have made my experience with mac much better. but websites not working with VO +safari/chrome and working with NVDA + chrome/firefox/edge still stands, as well as VO not having a review cursor.really dont understand people defending a suboptimal platform. so far everyone defending mac + VO just saying that it is usable. I think we all know it is usable, but is it anywhere near as productive as NVDA or JAWS. noone can say it is and that's is the whole point why I recommend against mac, at least for people who are fully blind. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/605849/#p605849 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Developing on Windows VS. Mac
Re: Developing on Windows VS. Mac @22: point taken, but this is more of an OS X thing (yay for mouse orientation), and it annoys me at times, but the trackpad commander is a lifesaver. Everyone likes what they like, though, and I can respect that. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/605806/#p605806 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Developing on Windows VS. Mac
Re: Developing on Windows VS. Mac I forgot about TDSR. I won't say that if Mac terminal support being a problem means you're not programming enough yet because that's not exactly true, but seriously, when everything is like "I'm 10% less than I could be" and you've got that other platform over there that's better, it's really hard to justify.The CI-based app signing services aren't illegal. GitHub Actions supports Mac for example. Microsoft also runs one, though I forget what it's called at the moment. Apple requires you to do development on a mac. They don't require you to do development on your mac. The real problem with them is that you'll be waiting 5-10 minutes for a build to test, and with e.g. GitHub actions you'll probably have to do some reverse engineering to get it doing what you want.With respect to punctuation not being an issue in other languages, not sure why that matters. As far as I know NVDA bothers to optimize this for all of them. Mac doesn't. I suppose that given the really poor support in Eloquence and Espeak for other languages, the Mac synth problems are less of an issue by comparison. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/605763/#p605763 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Developing on Windows VS. Mac
Re: Developing on Windows VS. Mac The point of my post was to illustrate how Mac commands are unintuitive. I didn't bother coming up with actual commands, rather, trying to highlight how VO brings complexities into the ecosystem without a slight attempt of integration. It's like saying "You want a screenreader? Here you go! We'll make a special layer on top of our system." Where NVDA wins in my eyes is the fact that it acts more as an observer, incorporating itself into the windows system rather than trying to force its way on top of it. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/605741/#p605741 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Developing on Windows VS. Mac
Re: Developing on Windows VS. Mac hy there!So, I think I will need to buy a mak soonish, because there's kind of no point in saying my app that I'm making will be cross-platform, and then only show people the thing in windows and android. Each time I tell them about cross-platform, they reply something like, well, where is iOS?Or really DK, I might just scrue it and use github actions to build the new release for mac, then pass the generated ipa file through some online iOS app signing services I won't name here for obvious reasons, then put the thingi under releases...so there you go, iOS support. Want it? Good, use iTunes to sideload the thing, I mean, Actually, it's not that hard if the ipa file is signed, which it will be, as a consequence of the online signing service thingi.Well, it might kind of be in a bit of a legally gray area, but that's one option. Otherwise, why would github actions give you access to mac comps for free other than to build apps for mac OS on them?Well, even if I buy one, I thought vo isn't going to be that hard to code in. If it's using the same voices as for the iPhone, with the same punctuation thing and it isn't reporting indentation and stuff, then better ssh into it, I guess as I won't crap work with such a thing.Anyway, vs has the pair to mac thingi, with which it builds xamarin projects related to the apple line. It uses ssh, automatically discovering the mak on the network and stuff. You only need to give it...how was it called...remote login? permissions and there you go, vs will install a xamarin agent and tools and whatever, I think you'll only need to have the mac computer turned on at this point, the build process happens automatically, right there, from the comfort of windows, or maybe ubuntu as well through vscode. So that might be an option, too, ssh-ing into the mak, either manually or use something like vs does. Anyway, what would be even trickier would be getting the iOS device to be debugged from vs. I herd that apple introduced a thing where you can't use remote debugging unless you configure it in the system settings app or some such, or maybe you have to confirm an on-screen prompt like an authorisation thing? I don't remember who said it, but that is another good reason to stay away from mac.So guys, what do you think? Should I buy one, or would what github actions offer be enough with the method I described? URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/605702/#p605702 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Developing on Windows VS. Mac
Re: Developing on Windows VS. Mac @19: ah, I see. Both NVDA and JAWS lack it natively, in fact. You can script it with JAWS, but I hate JAWSScript with a passion. Being able to script more than speaking with Applescript is another thing VO needs, actually, on the subject of scripting. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/605691/#p605691 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Developing on Windows VS. Mac
Re: Developing on Windows VS. Mac I assume he meant copying the last phrase VO spoke, which is Vo plus shift plus C, which you can switch to capslock and have a way easier time. Considering NVDA lacks this function natively without any addons, that's not really a comparison... Better a clunky shortcut you could change through keyboard commanders, than no function.Before any weird flaming starts, I did not say VO is better than NVDA. Both have their strenghths, I was just always surprised how such a simple feature was overlooked considering you can copy title bars, status bars and list items, but not the last spoken thing. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/605684/#p605684 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Developing on Windows VS. Mac
Re: Developing on Windows VS. Mac @17, I fully agree. As I said: VO on Mac certainly has it's issues, but it gets worse of a wrap than it deserves.@16: VO+shift+ctrl+c? Where did you learn to use a Mac? It's just CMD+C. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/605678/#p605678 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Developing on Windows VS. Mac
Re: Developing on Windows VS. Mac @13 Um, sorry, but VO has single letter navigation. Turn on quick nav, press letters, magic happens. Unless you turned it off, which is a simple press of VO plus q. Comments like these make me wonder how much people truly research Mac before hating on it.About Terminal support, valid criticism. That really needs to be resolved.Regarding punctuation though, I still don't agree. You don't have to redefine every simbol, because some are short by nature. There is nothing wrong with comma, hiphen, plus, minus, equals, so on. There are a few things you could change like apostrophy, braces, dots and semicolons. Also, you kind of assume this is an English only environment. This punctuation problem you speak of does not exactly apply to every language, and programming isn't done only by using English synths, so I can't call this a general VO issue.Regarding indentation, yes, I agree with that. That and the Terminal support are two legitimate biggest flaws of VO on the Mac. But then I hear things like no proper web navigation, punctuation can't be resolved, and god knows what else and I wonder how these people used Mac. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/605664/#p605664 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Developing on Windows VS. Mac
Re: Developing on Windows VS. Mac What puts me off of Mac is the sheer stupidity of the VO commands. Want to copy? Oh yeh, that's like VO+Shift+CTRL+C. Want to perform some other action? Oh yeh, that's insert some other archaic command here. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/605661/#p605661 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Developing on Windows VS. Mac
Re: Developing on Windows VS. Mac VO terminal support is an absolute piece of ass, and I don't think either me or Oriol denies that. But it is certainly useable. I can see why people hate it, and I'd be lying if I said I didn't hate it at times--hell, sometimes I write Swift on Windows and just build it on Mac--but I don't see the absolute hate towards it, either. TO each their own, I guess. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/605659/#p605659 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Developing on Windows VS. Mac
Re: Developing on Windows VS. Mac I've tried doing some pythonic stuff in mac, And as far as i tried, It's, Vary, Vary bad for US blind people, IDK if it's just me, But the text editer and voice over is vary, Vary hard to control, also, Mac doesn't like tabs, You still could press tab for indent but it will replace it with 2 spaces, So for me, I much prefer tabs and i never liked spaces because it makes reaching to the code rather long.am talking about the text edit that comes built in with mac, Am not sure if there's something that allows normal tabs.also, @5, For me mac reading indentation is seriously not a problem, Hell i don't use read indentation even in windows, It just feels making reading code weirder, But what i don't get in mac how to copy code, How to select text, How to and how to, With voiceover. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/605638/#p605638 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Developing on Windows VS. Mac
Re: Developing on Windows VS. Mac I've tried doing some pythonic stuff in mac, And as far as i tried, It's, Vary, Vary bad for US blind peopel, IDK if it's just me, But the text editer and voice over is vary, Vary hard to control, also, Mac doesn't like tabs, You still could press tab for indent but it will replace it with 2 spaces, So for me, I much prefer tabs and i never liked spaces because it makes reaching to the code rather long.am talking about the text edit that comes built in with mac, Am not sure if there's something that allows normal tabs.also, @5, For me mac reading indentation is seriously not a problem, Hell i don't use read indentation even in windows, It just feels making reading code weirder, But what i don't get in mac how to copy code, How to select text, How to and how to, With voiceover. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/605638/#p605638 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Developing on Windows VS. Mac
Re: Developing on Windows VS. Mac I've tried doing some pythonic stuff in mac, And as far as i tried, It's, Vary, Vary bad for US blind peopel, IDK if it's just me, But the text editer and voice over is vary, Vary hard to control, also, Mac doesn't like tabs, You still could press tab for indent but it will replace it with 2 spaces, So for me, I much prefer tabs and i never liked spaces because it makes reaching to the code rather long.am talking about the text edit that comes built in with mac, Am not sure if there's something that allows normal tabs. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/605638/#p605638 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Developing on Windows VS. Mac
Re: Developing on Windows VS. Mac efficiency of using Mac with VO vs Windows with NVDA is night and day. I used Mac as my first computer after losing my eyesight for a couple of years and switching to windows/NVDA was unbelievable. not even for programming, but just for common usage. even browsing websites, which is let's face it, half of what we do on the computer. single letter navigation is worlds more efficient than the rotor. also NVDA provides much more fine tools for making some inaccessible websites work through sheer will, whereas the same is impossible with VO. and I haven't eveh mentioned the review cursor, without which i cant imagine web browsing or text editing at this point. NVDA/JAWS is hands down a much better experience than VO for pretty much everything, not just programming. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/605629/#p605629 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Developing on Windows VS. Mac
Re: Developing on Windows VS. Mac To further add to the point Camlorn is trying to make here, someone had to sit down and write a custom console-based screen reader because Apple didn't get around to fixing some quirks in VO's terminal support after a couple major versions.Compare that with NVDA which recently got entirely rewritten console support, though the old one worked fine, and there's of course the insurance that if if something bugs you enough you can dive in and fix the screen reader itself. Everything I've done on iOS was written on windows for this reason. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/605628/#p605628 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Developing on Windows VS. Mac
Re: Developing on Windows VS. Mac @10Yes. Sure. You can redefine the table. I know that. But that's not invalidating my point. My point is that it's doable but every step of doing it is unergonomic and when you add them all together it's a scaling problem. At lower levels of programming/efficiency when you're getting started, or if you just decide you don't care, then it's going to seem fine. But seriously, Oriel had to literally write some sort of thing to handle indentation.When you say symbol tables you're also basically saying "go fix every punctuation it's got", we're not talking about optimizing one or two of them. Everything that's not a letter on your keyboard gets used in C++ for instance. I don't think "first redefine your symbol table, then get the special thing for indentation, then figure out what you're doing about navigation that makes tab look like the best thing since sliced bread, then by the way terminal is buggy" has any positive in it whatsoever, especially if latency has actually not yet been fixed. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/605572/#p605572 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Developing on Windows VS. Mac
Re: Developing on Windows VS. Mac Camlorn,I am not sure when is the last time you used Mac, but Voiceover has punctuation groups. They let you replace simbols by your own pronunciation, and define your own groups other than none, some most and all. TO go even further, using activities, certain groups can be active only in certain contexts or apps. Speech rate is something I agree on though, I'd love ESpeak for Mac, but that's another story. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/605553/#p605553 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Developing on Windows VS. Mac
2021-01-09
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — Developers room : GrannyCheeseWheel via Audiogames-reflector
Re: Developing on Windows VS. Mac I set symbols to len, ren, lack, rack, lace and race. to shorten even further,. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/605551/#p605551 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Developing on Windows VS. Mac
Re: Developing on Windows VS. Mac @6I heard they fixed or at least improved the latency recently, but couldn't find a source. Is this not true?I have to get a mac for Synthizer dev soon, I guess I'll find out then. And for the curious, I'm SSHing the hell out of that sucker from Windows because fortunately the Synthizer use case will let me. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/605470/#p605470 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Developing on Windows VS. Mac
Re: Developing on Windows VS. Mac @5The problem is that mac doesn't scale. I hate bringing age into things, but if I recall correctly you're 14 and just barely getting started. Programming isn't the only problem with it, but--not to rip off a fractal of bad design, but mac is like a toolbox, only the hammer has an odd shape, the screwdrivers are a little too big, the drill makes a winy noise and trips the breaker...yeah you can build a house. But real construction workers would use better tools.VO is very easy to learn. But at the higher levels, when you become a power user, VO doesn't offer anything at all. Hell, their terminal support is still buggy, last I've heard. So when you go VO, if you do it early and often, you lock yourself out of becoming a power user. Only because you never were one, you have no idea what you were missing.You would be surprised how much saying tick instead of apostrophe, semi instead of semicolon, left paren instead of left parentheses, less instead of less-than, etc etc etc. actually matters when you get into things that are punctuation/symbol heavy, for example. C++ is like putting your ears in a blender with VO, unless maybe there's a synth that optimizes for these things or they improved it. Get fast enough with your synth and "huh, I have to use 5-10 keystrokes to find the thing" becomes a problem (and if you aren't pushing yourself to go faster with the synth, you are doing yourself a disservice--but unfortunately this is another place all the first-party screen readers fall short, not just VO. You really need Espeak or Eloquence to really push it).As long as you use Windows for some programming, I suspect that a few years from now you're going to look back at present-you and be like "god, that was awful, how did I ever live with it". We'll see, I guess. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/605468/#p605468 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Developing on Windows VS. Mac
Re: Developing on Windows VS. Mac Then your code base must be small, I hate the response speed of OSX which is sluggish even when reading documents and what about coding? URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/605467/#p605467 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Developing on Windows VS. Mac
Re: Developing on Windows VS. Mac I am one of the people who codes on a Mac basically daily, and my first iOS app is almost done! I'm not going to lie, and say there are no areas where the Mac falls short, as there sure as hell are, and overlooking that would jus be being too optamistic, but it's doable. Look just a few months ago, I posted a thread about how I hated Xcode, but with a lot of messing around and fiddling, it's doable. And yes, I do use Windows for developing anything that's not Swift or JS, and actually JS is mixed between the two, simply because VS Code on Mac is actually great. For something like Python, sure, run your code on a Mac, but please for the love of the gods, write it on Windows! VoiceOver and it's not reading indentation pisses me off when trying to do Python on Mac. For something like Swift with Xcode or JS with VS Code though, it doesn't really matter, because they do it for you. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/605464/#p605464 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Developing on Windows VS. Mac
Re: Developing on Windows VS. Mac Coding on a mac is much like trying to use a manual mower to cut the forest, because VO is not designed for that! URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/605461/#p605461 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Developing on Windows VS. Mac
Re: Developing on Windows VS. Mac Yeah, most of those threads are someone asks, 75% of us point out that the Voiceover coding experience sucks, then Oriel and one or two other people say "but I do it", usually the same group. I applaud them for patience, let's put it that way, though I guess if you don't learn to run your synth absurdly fast and generally make a really concrete effort to keep up with sighted colleagues over the course of years maybe it's better (and unless you think I'm pulling this out of my hat, Oriel specifically yelled at me for saying this is the standard we should strive for once because apparently everyone isn't me. Which, fine, make that trade-off. But at least know you're making it).If you're thinking of buying a mac for coding and don't already have one, don't. Not until you're ready to do iOS apps and of sufficient skill level to pull it off. It's in all ways a lesser experience, but the Apple walled garden requires living with it if you want iPhone/iPad apps. If you already have a Mac, just install XCode and try it. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/605459/#p605459 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Developing on Windows VS. Mac
Re: Developing on Windows VS. Mac Where did you see such posts? As far as my humble knowledge is concerned, people develop on OSX only when they need to develop iOS / Mac software. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/605452/#p605452 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Developing on Windows VS. Mac
Developing on Windows VS. Mac Hi all,Saw some posts here recently about how some rarely develop on Windows anymore. Curious why? VoiceOver is... not the screen reader it once was. Unless people are using Macs but developing on Linux with the added benefit of an internal version. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/605446/#p605446 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
