Re: Mark Gabriel's Testimony
Re: Mark Gabriel's Testimony thats what i said, URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/443241/#p443241 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Mark Gabriel's Testimony
2019-06-21
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — Off-topic room : abdullah_mohammad via Audiogames-reflector
Re: Mark Gabriel's Testimony my oppinion is if you are gonna judge a religion by the people that follow it then every religion is bad going by this logic. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/443228/#p443228 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Mark Gabriel's Testimony
Re: Mark Gabriel's Testimony Pretty much post 22 and 21 outlines my huge problems to religions and why I don't subscribe to any of them. The bible is filled with "believe," "believe," "believe!" Every religious text, bar Buddhism (and maybe a few more), are all filled with this nonsense. It doesn't help that:1) religious texts go through translation after translation. These translations of translations of translations have errors, called mistranslations. The mistranslations are usually a result of deliberate falsifications or words having multiple meanings depending on usage, _expression_, tone, etc. As a result, Christianity (and a lot of other religions) have not only lost their path, but lost their way, irreparably, in my opinion.2) Religion is filled with whitewashing of the universe. They say: "There is only good and evil, black and white, male and female, heaven and hell, etc. There is no other." This is inherently flawed and false; nothing, IMO, is truly binary-based, even if our computers operate on such principals.3) The bible has absolutely nothing provable within it. At least, nothing I have seen/read. Its all faith and conjecture; it speaks nothing of science and only of the "one true deity and what he did for the world". Seriously? Then answer me this, oh great bible: why does god let us kill one another. The bible says, "free agency, free will." Really? I seriously doubt a deity (with absolute control over the universe and all within) would allow their denizens to needlessly kill each other and produce weapons with so much destructive potential they could eliminate all that they have worked so hard to create. I seriously doubt a deity would needlessly create wars and battles to fight over loyalties. That does not sound like a "loving and caring" deity to me at all. No, that sounds exactly like the definition of the devil as per the bible. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/443213/#p443213 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Mark Gabriel's Testimony
Re: Mark Gabriel's Testimony Yeah, what is that thing, the teapot flying through space?There is currently no way to proove or disproof that there is a teapot orbiting the earth, but that doesn’t mean we should believe it. And, the fact that millions of people believe it, and those millions of people say that they are more moral because they do, doesn’t make it true. And it deffinetly should not be taught in school. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/443205/#p443205 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Mark Gabriel's Testimony
Re: Mark Gabriel's Testimony Moderation:Simba, that "Christian fucks" comment was a bit much. I'm issuing a caution. You've been okay since, and it didn't utterly explode on us, so that's cool, but you might wanna watch that going forward, is all.end moderationI can get behind the pacifism thing, though only to a certain extent. I'd rather not harm anyone, but some harm is unavoidable. I'm also not completely closed to the idea that there's more to life than what we know, but the burden of proof is on believers to back themselves up, not on science to definitively disprove them. To anyone who disagrees, I offer the following scenario:I know in my heart that there is a planet in a solar system forty-five thousand light-years from here. It's circling a red giant at a considerable distance, and it's quite cold, but living on that planet are a race of small bloblike creatures who have constructed cone-shaped dwellings from some sort of spongy plantlike composite matter to keep them warm. These little creatures have the ability to talk to each other (and others) telepathically, which is how I know they exist and how I know they plan to one day come across the galaxy to introduce themselves to us.Now, if you believe that the burden of proof is on science to disprove, then it is up to you to definitively disprove the assertions above. You have to find logic that factually diemisses my scenario, and covers for all eventualities. You can't just hand-wave it and say "well of course that isn't real". Because we do the same thing to religious constructs all the time, yet some of you doggedly cling to them anyhow.I am not trying to start a fight here, merely trying to introduce the idea that what goes for the goose must also go for the gander.Oh also? Let's not forget that there are other large religions besides the Abrahamic trio. Buddhism...do you folks know of a lot of wars being fought over that one? Because I personally don't. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/443183/#p443183 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Mark Gabriel's Testimony
Re: Mark Gabriel's Testimony Hi.Well, I have to agree with 13 here.While Science is currently not 100 percent accurate or perfect, it still has the ability to change and adapt new rules and change known facts by presenting new evidences for something.The problem I have with religion that you have one god you shall follow blindly and everything that happens is given by god and no questions shall be answered. Add that every religion, even though it preaches peace, compassion and love tries to be better than the others, standing over everyone and not holding back making their point clear with violence makes me wonder why I should follow a religion.They brought us crusades, the 30 year war, witch hunts, the inquisition, suicide bombers and so on.Also a valid point that 13 brought up is that when the bible was translated from Latin into other languages, who prooves that the texts have been altered with? Latin was only known to a select few individuals which were mostly church people and had a strong desire to preach the word of god and gain power off of their translations. There are some interesting articles where parts of the bible are analysed and compared with parts of original bibles, some of them seam to still existGreetings Moritz. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/443153/#p443153 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Mark Gabriel's Testimony
Re: Mark Gabriel's Testimony Greetings defender.Thank you for your reply. The only reason why I went into preacher mode before was because people didn't want to follow whatever moral codes and principals they subscribe to and use said codes and principals to become the best they could be. No you don't need a religion to be a good individual and neither does nature care about morality. Nature will do all in its power to ensure survival of the fittest, strongest, cleverest, bravest and so on. Having said that, we also see evidence to the contrary because humanity most often goes against nature to the extent that nature allows. Let me clear up a few misconceptions about me and my prior behaviour. I cannot honestly see the difference between what I did before compared to what I'm doing now because I see these differences as extensions or continuations. Before this thread, I was explaining what I believed and why I believe in it; now I'm showing you the result of my believing what I believe. I'm no longer trying to explain what I believe and why I recommend others to believe in it; I'm now showing that because I believe in absolute pacifism so strongly, I am free to live and let live. In other words, even though my prior words before this thread might prove otherwise, I was still okay with people believing in any given religion or not; same applies to science, atheism, anything at all. My primary goal was as it is now to advise people that no matter what you believe or how you get to the following conclusion, it is most important to follow it, live it and be it in action. It's better for everyone to be loving, kind, good, compassionate, merciful and forgiving at all times and in all situations. It is also better never to harm anyone under any circumstance and for any reason what so ever. It doesn't matter whether or not you believe in something outside of this reality, it only matters that we never cause anyone to suffer in any way if we can help it. For the sake of argument, I won't bring in the testament of truth or karma into this answer.Remember I said earlier about me keeping my mouth shut whenever I felt like I wanted to bite someone's head off? I know what it feels like to give in to my baser emotions and yes, evidence shows that we're instinctually inclined to do wrong. As Vazbol and Mads were saying, we see children naturally being bratty and they have to be taught to not be that way. So, every time I did something to deliberately cause someone to suffer, I felt very powerful, especially when I did it to someone who was in authority over me. It felt like a drug and the more I did it, the more I wanted to do it. Forgive me if I go into preacher mode; I think I'm already doing so. Anyway, unfortunately, my being a bully eventually spread to include those who I didn't want to hurt and I couldn't stop my behaviour. I felt at times like I was a passenger within my own body while my mouth did the talking for me. It got to the point that not even heart felt apologies could fix it and worse yet, I became a bully because others bullied me first and they kept on doing so even when I lost hope. It took people far more evil than me to crush me into submission and it also took me looking into that mirror to see myself for who and what I truly was in order for me to find someone to tell me in a loving way that in order to improve, I had to be peaceful no matter what and to never give into my baser emotions. My mentor explained to me that the reason I was out of control was because I kept giving into my rage, hatred and thirst for vengeance. Not only that but I could feel all my negative emotions growing stronger day by day and the only way I could be stopped was to be smacked down and face the terrible consequences of my actions. However, not even the most evil of people could have stopped me permanently; I had to see myself first and only a supernatural being could have presented a mirror that reflected my personality traits so very well. Without said supernatural being, not even Melissa and Brad's altercation would have changed me and I wouldn't have come to that conclusion on my own; my mind wouldn't have made such an intuitive leap on its own because my thought processes didn't factor me wanting to improve myself, I wanted power to crush any who made me suffer in the first place and that's what I cared about. Now I'm not saying that people cannot improve without believing in something; I'm saying that something happened to me that I have no rational scientific explanation for. Not even psychology/psychiatry can explain how or why some people get wake up calls and some of the situations we find ourselves in may have nothing to do with us suddenly realising that we no longer want to live and be the way we are living and being and we must do something about it.I know, I've gone way off to
Re: Mark Gabriel's Testimony
Re: Mark Gabriel's Testimony A surprisingly good discussion! Minus Simba's "you Christian fucks" comment of course, which I've reported, and even despite the source material's (dubious) aims and factualness.So far I think I agree with Post 13 the most out of all of them, and the only problem I have with 14 is the TLDR part, because I've seen quite a few scientists who will pay lip service to the proof principal but through their actions and arguments clearly believe that the proof is there.Also, I've seen quite a few religious people who are willing to entertain theoreticals about their faith, even if they never let it sway them fully, so I disagree with that somewhat, in that believers often don't think the religion is perfect, even if the nature of the teaching require them to believe that their god is in most cases.I would just like to say as well that I like this Bashue allot more than the previous and preachier one, your a very understanding and respectful guy and I appreciate that. You help to counterbalance some of the wrongs and misconceptions caused by the worse members of your community. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/443118/#p443118 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Mark Gabriel's Testimony
Re: Mark Gabriel's Testimony
A surprisingly good discussion! Minus Simba's ("you Christian fucks") comment which I've reported, even despite the source material's (dubious) aims and factualness.So far I think I agree with Post 13 the most out of all of them, and the only problem I have with 14 is the TLDR part, because I've seen quite a few scientists who will pay lip service to the proof principal but through their actions and arguments clearly believe that the proof is there.Also, I've seen quite a few religious people who are willing to entertain theoreticals about their faith, even if they never let it sway them fully, so I disagree with that somewhat, in that believers often don't think the religion is perfect, even if the nature of the teaching require them to believe that their god is in most cases.I would just like to say as well that I like this Bashue allot more than the previous and preachier one, your a very understanding and respectful guy and I appreciate that. You help to counterbalance some of the wrongs and misconceptions caused by the worse members of your community.
URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/443118/#p443118
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Re: Mark Gabriel's Testimony
Re: Mark Gabriel's Testimony Haha, I guess you could say that! URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/443069/#p443069 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Mark Gabriel's Testimony
Re: Mark Gabriel's Testimony Greetings Mads.A good argument and I cannot ask for any more than that. At least it isn't an outright dismissal and although you don't believe in what we spiritualists believe in, you do make allowances for the supernatural to be true. As to losing the super out of super nature, I think that all nature is super but that's just me.Kind regards, Amin Abdullah. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/443068/#p443068 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Mark Gabriel's Testimony
Re: Mark Gabriel's Testimony Untill anyone shows me that anything “supernatural” exists, I will not accept that it is real. But, if it is shown to be real, I will gladly accept it, because science has the right mindset... don’t be loyal to your believes. This means that I can always change my mind if new evidence is found.@bashueYou see, I would say that probably none of the great dictators were originally evil. I think that they became evil by being indoctrinated by their surroundings, in the same way that religion spreads, then they found likeminded people to strengthen their believes, again like some religious people do.And no one claimbes that evolution is perfect in that sence. You know, evolution depends on everyone being a bit different than everybody else, so no, evolution will never create an unfailable human, nor is that what the theory predicts.@vazbulQuite nicely put there!And as I said: untill evidence for the supernatural has been found, I won’t accept it as true, possible yes, but not something to believe in. The burden of proof has been, is and will always be on the believers.Hmm... if the supernatural ever get’s prooven, doesn’t it kinda loose the super part... everything that is real has to be natural, right? What an interesting thought... URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/443063/#p443063 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Mark Gabriel's Testimony
Re: Mark Gabriel's Testimony Untill anyone shows me that anything “supernatural” exists, I will not accept that it is real. But, if it is shown to be real, I will gladly accept it, because science has the right mindset... don’t be loyal to your believes. This means that I can always change my mind if new evidence is found.@bashueYou see, I would say that probably none of the great dictators were originally evil. I think that they became evil by being indoctrinated by their surroundings, in the same way that religion spreads, then they found likeminded people to strengthen their believes, again like some religious people do.And no one claimbes that evolution is perfect in that sence. You know, evolution depends on everyone being a bit different than everybody else, so no, evolution will never create an unfailable human, nor is that what the theory predicts.@vazbulQuite nicely put there!And as I said: untill evidence for the supernatural has been found, I won’t accept it as true, possible yes, but not something to believe in. The burden of proof has been, is and will always be on the believers.Hmm... if the supernatural ever get’s prooven, doesn’t it kinda loose the super part... everything that is real has to be natural, right? URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/443063/#p443063 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Mark Gabriel's Testimony
Re: Mark Gabriel's Testimony Greetings Vasbol.This is a very good answer. It's true that whatever religion you subscribe to does indeed require you to rely on faith. As for blind faith, I had to start out somewhere with a set of principals to test out in my daily life. I've been able to prove subjectively that God does indeed exist but I haven't been able to prove it objectively. There is no way for me to truly share my experiences with God and the supernatural in a manor that can prove beyond any shadow of doubt that such experiences are not simply figments of my imagination. If there was a way for me to do so then I would prove it objectively right now. So what are the set of principals that I applied in my every day life that proved to me personally that Jehovah is indeed real and that his/her law is a universal sovereign law? Every time I was tempted to retaliate in the face of adversity, 9 times out of 10 I didn't. For the most part, I kept my mouth shut whenever I felt tempted to cause someone pain due to the fact that it felt unfair that I went through something that upset me. In so doing, I felt a release deep within me and my burdens have lessened over time to the point that I very rarely lash out now. I did say that I couldn't prove anything objectively, I can only show via action that what I do works for me and if anyone is willing to test the theory of absolute pacifism, I guarantee that it works. You'll still feel tempted to do wrong and you'll still have to wrestle with feeling like people are just walking all over you but it will lessen over time until one day, you'll never be attacked again.Kind regards, Amin Abdullah. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/443055/#p443055 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Mark Gabriel's Testimony
Re: Mark Gabriel's Testimony bashue wrote:Greetings Mads.I don't get it. The same argument can be made for evolution. If evolution was a perfect system then we wouldn't have had any Hitlers, Stalins or any other dictators. Is there a gene that determines evil? If so, where is it? If evil can be bread out then the military would shut down. Don't forget the horrors of the second world war where they tried to bread out certain traits and encourage the proliferation of others. Tampering with nature on a genetic level is just as dangerous as brainwashing people into becoming murderers for their countries and their leaders via propaganda and religion. I know this is rather a cheap shot at evolution and even scientists cannot prove beyond any shadow of doubt that evolution is a reliable theory; you are a proponent of the evolution theory, can you prove it to be completely reliable and sound? I know I cannot prove that there is indeed an afterlife nor can I prove beyond any shadow of doubt that God exists. I cannot prove that any given religion is true while others are false. I cannot prove that creation is a reliable and sound theory, nor can I prove that we derive comfort from the creation theory. Having said that, I don't dismiss evolution as a theory; I believe that creation and evolution go hand in hand.Kind regards, Amin Abdullah.Science does not prove anything. We never say that science proves, we say the evidence supports or rejects the theory. Science is open to any changes once more information is discovered to add on to our previous understanding. In regards to evolution, there is enough evidence to support the theory for the time being, as basic genetics and controlled testing have shown this to be the case. When no one screws with experiments or observations of nature, the desired traits tend to linger and reproduce more, while lesser traits die or do not attract mates. Hell, many of our own bodily features, health issues and the like come from evolutionary traits that lingered on that did not match well with how we changed from simple creatures. Trying to apply evolution to humans is hard due to how badly we twisted the concept through that demon known as science and medicine. Further more, we have a more advanced form of socialization that is not likely to be found to the extent we have it in animals, allowing lesser traits to survive. A great irony of evolution. We use advancements in science to allow the people who should be dead to survive longer and thrive.On evil, science has a theory on that through psychology and early child care. It does not exist. The concept of evil is a social construct for genetic traits and knowing how children work. In short, babies can be considered the spawn of satans if we apply our form of evil onto them. Positive traits are learned compared to baser instincts of one's self. People are more likely to be evil and have to learn to be good. Rationalization and defense mechanisms are what we use to try to justify evil acts which our bodies considered normal, as in all honesty, your body only cares about itself. If you have not noticed, children are self centered, bratty and generally a pain when young. Parents have to teach their children concepts such as sharing, manors and to stop kicking little Jimmy off the slide. Parents can also exacerbate these traits, making them into unbearable and cruel monsters who never progressed farther from this stage. Of course, other cultural, social and mental factors can alter a person's behavior and disposition. And amusingly enough, religion supports this idea in some interpretations. Why do you need a religion to be able to do good? If religion is needed to do good, then doesn't that mean the construct of evil is our base, and good has to be developed and learned? For your claim, those people you listed either never learned, or were incapable of learning (i.e mental disabilities that make it difficult to learn these concepts). There are entire fields in science dedicated to understanding why people tend to act a certain way that you can refer to in answering that question. Tl-Dr: Science never claims to be perfect, religion does. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/443052/#p443052 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Mark Gabriel's Testimony
Re: Mark Gabriel's Testimony bashue wrote:Greetings Mads.I don't get it. The same argument can be made for evolution. If evolution was a perfect system then we wouldn't have had any Hitlers, Stalins or any other dictators. Is there a gene that determines evil? If so, where is it? If evil can be bread out then the military would shut down. Don't forget the horrors of the second world war where they tried to bread out certain traits and encourage the proliferation of others. Tampering with nature on a genetic level is just as dangerous as brainwashing people into becoming murderers for their countries and their leaders via propaganda and religion. I know this is rather a cheap shot at evolution and even scientists cannot prove beyond any shadow of doubt that evolution is a reliable theory; you are a proponent of the evolution theory, can you prove it to be completely reliable and sound? I know I cannot prove that there is indeed an afterlife nor can I prove beyond any shadow of doubt that God exists. I cannot prove that any given religion is true while others are false. I cannot prove that creation is a reliable and sound theory, nor can I prove that we derive comfort from the creation theory. Having said that, I don't dismiss evolution as a theory; I believe that creation and evolution go hand in hand.Kind regards, Amin Abdullah.Science does not prove anything. We never say that science proves, we say the evidence supports or rejects the theory. Science is open to any changes once more information is discovered to add on to our previous understanding. In regards to evolution, there is enough evidence to support the theory for the time being, as basic genetics and controlled testing have shown this to be the case. When no one screws with experiments or observations of nature, the desired traits tend to linger and reproduce more, while lesser traits die or do not attract mates. Hell, many of our own bodily features, health issues and the like come from evolutionary traits that lingered on that did not match well with how we changed from simple creatures. Trying to apply evolution to humans is hard due to how badly we twisted the concept through that demon known as science and medicine. Further more, we have a more advanced form of socialization that is not likely to be found to the extent we have it in animals, allowing lesser traits to survive.On evil, science has a theory on that through psychology and early child care. It does not exist. The concept of evil is a social construct for genetic traits and knowing how children work. In short, babies can be considered the spawn of satans if we apply our form of evil onto them. Positive traits are learned compared to baser instincts of one's self. People are more likely to be evil and have to learn to be good. Rationalization and defense mechanisms are what we use to try to justify evil acts which our bodies considered normal, as in all honesty, your body only cares about itself.And amusingly enough, religion supports this idea in some interpretations. Why do you need a religion to be able to do good? If religion is needed to do good, then doesn't that mean the construct of evil is our base, and good has to be developed and learned? For your claim, those people you listed either never learned, or were incapable of learning (i.e mental disabilities that make it difficult to learn these concepts). There are entire fields in science dedicated to understanding why people tend to act a certain way that you can refer to in answering that question. Tl-Dr: Science never claims to be perfect, religion does. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/443052/#p443052 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Mark Gabriel's Testimony
Re: Mark Gabriel's Testimony Hey now, science doesn't disprove that anything beyond the physical realm does not exist. Hell, the nature of the scientific method itself does not prove anything neither. Science just attempts to give explanation to anything we are capable of measuring, and is open to revision as technology and our understanding of the universe grows. Things that were considered accepted facts back then have been changed dramatically after more research and understanding. Our nonacceptance of the afterlife and anything that happens afterwards comes from the knowledge that we have no way of testing and measuring any of that stuff at the time being. We must determine it to be non-existent for the time being until evidence can be brought up to support or reject this theory. And this is where science has issue with religion. Religion requires blind faith to whatever sacred entity they worship without evidence to support the existence of their god/goddess. Not helping is the fact that the god the major 3 religions worship can be considered the same being, further muddying the waters. For all we know, the great god and our creator is just the concept of probability (all worship the Random number God), and cultures just personified the act of creation. 'Less helpful is the method religions tend to use to show that their religion is the one true religion. Rather than civil academic and theological debate, and exemplifying the good nature of their worshippers to contribute to the world (which holy text do support), it's all political maneuvering, manipulation of worshippers and texts, and a good old crusade to kill the other side. One really can't say their religion is the right one if the rest were just removed from existenceThis is why I'm not faithful to a religion. The entire construct of religion has been interfered with heavily by human hands, yet we call it the work of god. God did not personally write the holy texts, but was put through a second party. Second parties who may of had a chance to alter the message before writing it down. Heck, we see this obviously occurring with the story at the start, with the Egyptian government altering a version of religion that had a different interpretation of the holy texts. Is it not possible that the original books written by humans was also altered? Religions really don't have support in giving evidence this is the actual word of their deity without complete blind faith, and that type of manipulation is dangerous. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/443049/#p443049 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Mark Gabriel's Testimony
Re: Mark Gabriel's Testimony Greetings Mads.I don't get it. The same argument can be made for evolution. If evolution was a perfect system then we wouldn't have had any Hitlers, Stalins or any other dictators. Is there a gene that determines evil? If so, where is it? If evil can be bread out then the military would shut down. Don't forget the horrors of the second world war where they tried to bread out certain traits and encourage the proliferation of others. Tampering with nature on a genetic level is just as dangerous as brainwashing people into becoming murderers for their countries and their leaders via propaganda and religion. I know this is rather a cheap shot at evolution and even scientists cannot prove beyond any shadow of doubt that evolution is a reliable theory; you are a proponent of the evolution theory, can you prove it to be completely reliable and sound? I know I cannot prove that there is indeed an afterlife nor can I prove beyond any shadow of doubt that God exists. I cannot prove that any given religion is true while others are false. I cannot prove that creation is a reliable and sound theory, nor can I prove that we derive comfort from the creation theory. Having said that, I don't dismiss evolution as a theory; I believe that creation and evolution go hand in hand.Kind regards, Amin Abdullah. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/443047/#p443047 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Mark Gabriel's Testimony
Re: Mark Gabriel's Testimony @bashueI just don’t get it. I don’t believe in anything beyond the physical. This means, that I understand and respect the far from permanent thing that is life. I don’t see how it anything but increases the value of each and every one of us. If you do believe, that we do have a soul, and that it goes to a better place if we have been good, then you would think sending people to heaven as early as possible would be a good thing, killing babies before they can sin even better.We are a social species, and through evolution, we have gained a sense of what is right and wrong, and don’t give me antievolution bullshit, it isn’t even worth my time.I don’t want to hurt people, and if you need anything but your sense of morality given to us by nature to justify that, then I am sorry to say that I think you should get some help. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/443036/#p443036 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Mark Gabriel's Testimony
Re: Mark Gabriel's Testimony @bashueI just don’t get it. I don’t believe in anything beyond the physical. This means, that I understand and respect the far from permanent thing that is life. I don’t see how it anything but increases the value of each and every one of us. If you do believe, that we do have a soul, and that it goes to a better place if we have been good, then you would think sending people to heaven as early as possible would be a good thing, killing babies before they can sin even better.We are a social species, and through evolution, we have gained a sense of what is right and wrong, and don’t give me antievolution bullshit, it isn’t even worth my time.I don’t want to hurt people, and if you need anything but your sense of morality given to us by nature, then I am sorry to say that I think you should get some help. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/443036/#p443036 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Mark Gabriel's Testimony
Re: Mark Gabriel's Testimony if your thinking that the edgipt is living the islam, your dam rong, at least what i know.and i want my 10 minutes back btwif you want to learn about a religion, what ever it can be, Islam christianety or something else go check the books, not the peoplepeople cant resemble their good and bad sides.at least in not these days.when the Quran and the hadith are clearly protecting the other people, lol this text is sort of redicolous sorryalso an explanation to the alkahol thingyeah there are 3 verces about the alkaholbut the uran is a hole you cant examine it verce bye verce, you gottta consider the hole when reading it. for the alkahol thing, see thishttp://www.quran-islam.org/articles/alc … 1163).html URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/443032/#p443032 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Mark Gabriel's Testimony
Re: Mark Gabriel's Testimony Greetings ironcross32. I can definitely respect your point of view as well as those who share said viewpoint. Kind regards, Amin Abdullah. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/443022/#p443022 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Mark Gabriel's Testimony
Re: Mark Gabriel's Testimony Also, i find it hilarious that the two instances where he doesn't get attacked by the rats and the dog later on are somehow depicted as works of god, Jesus or what ever holy entity.Animals have a very fine sense and they know if you are afraight of them. No animal is vicious from the beginning, they are what humans make them and if they would have wanted to kill the guy, they would have found a dog which would do the job.So, no work of anything, just pure awesomeness of animals in general.Greetings Moritz. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/443021/#p443021 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Mark Gabriel's Testimony
Re: Mark Gabriel's Testimony Gosh, these are the ramblings of a mad man. This puts even more fuel into the religious conflict which we already have, instead of dousing the flames, this text depicts the bible in the most holiest of lights while the Islam is depicted as only cruel and dark.I don't know if you christian fucks even know that, but your bible has it's dark passages as well, that thing with discriminating wimmen, homosexuality and so on.You want me to quote those for ya?Greetings Moritz. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/443019/#p443019 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Mark Gabriel's Testimony
Re: Mark Gabriel's Testimony Greetings Mads.To be honest with you, I'm not against science in any way what so ever, I'm only against ideologies that state that there is nothing beyond the reality in which we're living in. I'm also against ideologies that state that everything can be quantified because everything is finite. If everything is finite then some day, everything will decay and die. If the law of entropy is able to apply to the mind and if the mind is only the brain, doesn't that mean that I should be able to do what I like, when I like, regardless of whether or not my actions causes someone to get hurt? After all, I won't live for very long.To my mind, both religion and science can walk hand in hand; religion tries to explain the what and science tries to explain the how. I know that to some, religion is simply nincompoop but that's because religion tries to delve into areas that science has not yet or cannot yet delve into. Spirituality on the other hand, embraces both equally and if you want proof, look to the noetic sciences.I know that eternity is daunting for a lot of people but the beauty of eternity lye's in the fact that you have all of eternity to learn, grow, live and enjoying existence. For me, I'm very glad to know that after my body expires, I have someone to go home to; someone to love and that someone loves me in return. I may sound like a dreamer and it's true that I cannot defend my argument with evidence that everyone can believe in but it gives me a reason to change and be as good an individual as I can be.Kind regards, Amin Abdullah. Oh yes before I forget, you might want to check out science against evolution as it's a most excellent resource and web site. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/443018/#p443018 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Mark Gabriel's Testimony
Re: Mark Gabriel's Testimony The bible has its dark passages too, it isn't as if the Quran is the only holy book that does. ALso I agree, religion has no place in my life. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/443016/#p443016 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Mark Gabriel's Testimony
Re: Mark Gabriel's Testimony Can we not put away these illusions and begin to seek the beauty and wonder of science and nature. I could not imagine a life with religion, and deeply fear the concept of eternaty, not because I, “sin”, but simply because I don’t want anything, peace nor torment, to last forever I don’t think bad of religious people, but I think that religion is just untrue in every way, and have trouble figuring out how people believe so firmly without evidence.That said, respect to those who seek peace, what ever it is that motivates you, everlasting life in heaven, because God says so, or like me, because it is the best thing for the entire human species. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/443003/#p443003 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Mark Gabriel's Testimony
Re: Mark Gabriel's Testimony Greetings all. As promised, I give you my thoughts regarding this matter.I was born and raised as a Muslim and for as long as I can remember, I've had doubts with the faith as a whole. I had no problems with accepting Allah Subahana Wataallah as the one true supreme sovereign creator/generator/destroyer/power, nor did I have any difficulty in accepting Muhammad as Allah's rasul meaning messenger and prophet. At the end of March of 2010, 2 Christian friends asked me to read and listen to the bible and encouraged me to embrace Jesus Christ. I must admit to being far more familiar with the inner workings of Christianity than I was with Islam due to my never being interested in Islam as a boy. For a while, I did embrace Christianity and even went to 2 churches; one was a Baptist church and another was All-Saints church that welcomed all Christians and even non-Christians. For a few months, I was at relative peace and that's when my life took a turn for the worse. Jehovah told me that Christianity wasn't my path either but adhering to the message as given unto us by Lord Jesus Christ was and is. Mother and Father were very upset with me and I must admit to enjoying making them suffer even though it resulted in my suffering. No, I should not have tried to play them at their own game and sully my own soul with darkness but when you've tasted power, it is very difficult to give it up. As a result, I had to say goodbye to Kaliani; an old woman who worked at all-saints who I loved very deeply and I did not forgive my parents until I embraced the path of peace and absolute pacifism. For 6 years I plotted and failed to get the 2 monkeys off my back and failed at each turn; I figured that if I made them suffer, I'd be free of them some day. Being tyrannical spread outward and nobody wanted to be around me; nobody who didn't already know me that is because even for the most radical, I was too wicked. I simply wanted an excuse to make as many people suffer as I could. I was sick of being controlled so I sought to control others. It all came to an ugly end in March of 2017 when Bradley Brown, Melissa and I were at Kentucky Fried Chicken and Melissa as arguing with Brad about Christianity. She was being domineering and he was defending himself. At that very instant, I had a very rude awakening. It was like looking into a mirror and I saw myself clearly for the first time. I was at whit's end and couldn't figure out where to turn or even who to turn to. By this time, I was doing Yoga and IT at the Christian Lattima Centre. I suddenly remembered something I'd long forgotten back in 2004 and once again, I went to the testament of truth. This time, I read all that my beloved mentor wrote and said the star prayers in earnest. I even spoke to Terence Malaher and his friend Charles Wudy until around June/July of last year. Now my life has improved as an absolute pacifist and I even have someone who I love with all that I am and infinitely more; Lisa Hudson who also loves me measure for measure.I had to tell of that first because I needed to show you that religion does not automatically turn you into someone good, loving, kind, compassionate and merciful; I was a tyrant who needed a kick up the but in order to change for the better and that's exactly what Allah Jehovah God gave me. Jehovah also guided Mark via Christianity and he was a Muslim thinker. So, what do I think about Mark's testimony? I believe it to be heartfelt and true. I believe he is now a most excellent Christian and he may even embrace some aspects of pacifism. I on the other hand cannot be a Christian according to the bible, nor am I a Muslim according to the quran. In order for me to be a good Christian, I must be a good Muslim; for me to be a good Muslim, I must be a good Christian. In order for me to walk the path of peace AKA Islam, I must walk the path of perfection, Christianity; in order for me to walk the path of perfection AKA Christianity, I must walk the path of peace AKA Islam. That means, I've given up the ring of power and I've taken it off for good. I absolutely respect Mark for what he did and I also respect those who convert into Islam or any other faith that would ultimately lead one to adhere to Jehovah's command to only be loving and to only love. I also acknowledge that there is only 1 supreme sovereign law of karma that states, what so ever you do will be done unto you. I still have a lot to go through but one day, through non-retaliation, I will pay back to Jehovah, all the suffering I've caused and then be free of it forever. Lord Jesus Christ told us to turn the other cheek but not many follow that unfortunately and until April of 2017, I didn't follow it either. Mark on the other hand never raised a finger to hurt anyone in this lifetime and I know with absolute certainty that both Jehovah and Lord Jesus Christ
Re: Mark Gabriel's Testimony
Re: Mark Gabriel's Testimony Greetings all. As promised, I give you my thoughts regarding this matter.I was born and raised as a Muslim and for as long as I can remember, I've had doubts with the faith as a whole. I had no problems with accepting Allah Subahana Wataallah as the one true supreme sovereign creator/generator/destroyer/power, nor did I have any difficulty in accepting Muhammad as Allah's rasul meaning messenger and prophet. At the end of March of 2010, 2 Christian friends asked me to read and listen to the bible and encouraged me to embrace Jesus Christ. I must admit to being far more familiar with the inner workings of Christianity than I was with Islam due to my never being interested in Islam as a boy. For a while, I did embrace Christianity and even went to 2 churches; one was a Baptist church and another was All-Saints church that welcomed all Christians and even non-Christians. For a few months, I was at relative peace and hat's when my life took a turn for the worse. Jehovah told me that Christianity wasn't my path either but adhering to the message as given unto us by Lord Jesus Christ was and is. Mother and Father were very upset with me and I must admit to enjoying making them suffer even though it resulted in my suffering. No, I should not have tried to play them at their own game and sully my own soul with darkness but when you've tasted power, it is very difficult to give it up. As a result, I had to say goodbye to Kaliani; an old woman who worked at all-saints who I loved very deeply and I did not forgive my parents until I embraced the path of peace and absolute pacifism. For 6 years I plotted and failed to get the 2 monkeys off my back and failed at each turn; I figured that if I made them suffer, I'd be free of them some day. Being tyrannical spread outward and nobody wanted to be around me; nobody who didn't already know me that is because even for the most radical, I was too wicked. I simply wanted an excuse to make as many people suffer as I could. I was sick of being controlled so I sought to control others. It all came to an ugly end in March of 2017 when Bradley Brown, Melissa and I were at Kentucky Fried Chicken and Melissa as arguing with Brad about Christianity. She was being domineering and he was defending himself. At that very instant, I had a very rude awakening. It was like looking into a mirror and I saw myself clearly for the first time. I was at whit's end and couldn't figure out where to turn or even who to turn to. By this time, I was doing Yoga and IT at the Christian Lattima Centre. I suddenly remembered something I'd long forgotten back in 2004 and once again, I went to the testament of truth. This time, I read all that my beloved mentor wrote and said the star prayers in earnest. I even spoke to Terence Malaher and his friend Charles Wudy until around June/July of last year. Now my life has improved as an absolute pacifist and I even have someone who I love with all that I am and infinitely more; Lisa Hudson who also loves me measure for measure.I had to tell of that first because I needed to show you that religion does not automatically turn you into someone good, loving, kind, compassionate and merciful; I was a tyrant who needed a kick up the but in order to change for the better and that's exactly what Allah Jehovah God gave me. Jehovah also guided Mark via Christianity and he was a Muslim thinker. So, what do I think about Mark's testimony? I believe it to be heartfelt and true. I believe he is now a most excellent Christian and he may even embrace some aspects of pacifism. I on the other hand cannot be a Christian according to the bible, nor am I a Muslim according to the quran. In order for me to be a good Christian, I must be a good Muslim; for me to be a good Muslim, I must be a good Christian. In order for me to walk the path of peace AKA Islam, I must walk the path of perfection, Christianity; in order for me to walk the path of perfection AKA Christianity, I must walk the path of peace AKA Islam. That means, I've given up the ring of power and I've taken it off for good. I absolutely respect Mark for what he did and I also respect those who convert into Islam or any other faith that would ultimately lead one to adhere to Jehovah's command to only be loving and to only love. I also acknowledge that there is only 1 supreme sovereign law of karma that states, what so ever you do will be done unto you. I still have a lot to go through but one day, through non-retaliation, I will pay back to Jehovah, all the suffering I've caused and then be free of it forever. Lord Jesus Christ told us to turn the other cheek but not many follow that unfortunately and until April of 2017, I didn't follow it either. Mark on the other hand never raised a finger to hurt anyone in this lifetime and I know with absolute certainty that both Jehovah and Lord Jesus Christ
Re: Mark Gabriel's Testimony
Re: Mark Gabriel's Testimony Greetings all. I will post here what Mark Gabriel wrote. In the next post, I'll tell you what I think of Mark's testimony. Kind regards, Amin Abdullah.Mark Gabriel wrote:Mark Gabriel's Testimony (Islam)The Story of M A GabrielThe former professor of Islamic history at Al-Azhar University, Cairo, EgyptDisillusioned at Al-AzharFifteen years ago I was the imam of a mosque in the city of Giza, Egypt, which is where the famous Egyptian pyramids are located. (Imam of a mosque is a position similar to pastor of a Christian church.) I preached the message of the week on Fridays from 12 to 1 in the afternoon, as well as performed other duties.One Friday the topic of my message was jihad. I told the two hundred fifty people seated on the ground before me: Jihad in Islam is defending the Islamic nation and Islam against the attacks of the enemies. Islam is a religion of peace and only will fight against one who fights it. These infidels, heathens, perverts, Christians and Allah’s grievers, the Jews, out of envy of peaceful Islam and its prophet—they spread the myth that Islam is promulgated by the sword and violence. These infidels, the accusers of Islam, do not acknowledge Allah’s words. At this point I quoted from the Quran: And do not kill anyone whose killing Allah has forbidden, except for a just cause. —Surah 17:33, The Noble Quran When I spoke these words, I was just freshly graduated from Al-Azhar University in Cairo, Egypt —the oldest and most prestigious Islamic university in the world. It serves as the spiritual authority for Islam worldwide. I was teaching at the university, and I was an imam on the weekend at this mosque.I preached my sermon on jihad that day according to the philosophy of the Egyptian government. Al-Azhar University focused us on the politically correct Islam and purposely overlooked areas of teaching that conflicted with the authority of Egypt . I was preaching what they taught me, but inside I was confused about the truth of Islam. But if I wanted to keep my job and my status at Al-Azhar, I needed to keep my thoughts to myself. After all, I knew what happened to people who differed from Al-Azhar’s agenda. They would be fired and would not be accepted to teach at any other university in the nation.However, I knew that what I was teaching at the mosque and at Al-Azhar was not what I’d seen in the Quran, which I had memorized in its entirety by the age of twelve. What confused me the most was that I was told to preach about an Islam of love, kindness and forgiveness. At the same time, Muslim fundamentalists—the ones who were supposed to be practicing true Islam—were bombing churches and killing Christians.At this time the jihad movement was very active in Egypt. Reports of bombings and attacks against Christians were common. It was such apart of everyday life that one time I heard a bomb go off at a church as I was riding the bus. I looked and saw a plume of smoke rising up a quarter mile away.I had been raised in a family that was well established in Islam, and I had studied Islamic history. I was not involved in any radical groups. But one of my Muslim friends was a member of an Islamic group that was actively slaughtering Christians. Ironically, he was a chemistry student and had only recently become serious about his faith. Nevertheless, he was active in jihad. One day I asked him, “Why are you killing our neighbors and countrymen whom we grew up with?”He was angry and astonished at my challenge. “Out of all Muslims you should know. The Christians did not accept the call of Islam, and they are not willing to pay us the jizyah (tax) to have the right to practice their beliefs. Therefore, the only option they have is the sword of Islamic law.”Seeking the TruthMy conversations with him drove me to pour over the Quran and the books of the Islamic law, hoping to find something to contradict what he said. I couldn’t change the reality of what I read. As a Muslim, I realized I had two options:• I could continue to embrace the “Christianized” Islam—the Islam of peace, love, forgiveness and compassion, the Islam tailor-made to fit Egyptian government, politics and culture—thereby keeping my job and status.• I could become a member of the Islamic movement and embrace Islam according to the Quran and the teachings of Muhammad. Muhammad said, “I left you with something [the Quran]. If you hold on to what I left with you, you will not be led astray forever.”Many times I tried to rationalize the kind of Islam I was practicing by saying to myself, well, you are not too far out. After all, there are verses in the Quran about love, peace, forgiveness and compassion. You only need to ignore the part about jihad and the killing of the non-Muslims. I went to every interpretation of the Quran trying to avoid jihad and killing non-Muslims, yet I kept finding support of the practice. The scholars agreed that Muslims should enforce jihad on infide
Mark Gabriel's Testimony
Mark Gabriel's Testimony Mark Gabriel's Testimonyhttps://www.arabicbible.com/testimonial … imony.html URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/442919/#p442919 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
