Re: Honest discussion, why pay for and use jaws over free screen readers?
Re: Honest discussion, why pay for and use jaws over free screen readers? Just downloaded nvda on a school computer for no reason. I use my own computer for school, but for no reason felt like putting nvda on a school computer. Let’s teach the world screen readers can be free! URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/420735/#p420735 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Honest discussion, why pay for and use jaws over free screen readers?
Re: Honest discussion, why pay for and use jaws over free screen readers? @103, yep, Oracle no longer ships java 32-bit, and I think that those apps that have stuck with Java 8 are starting to move to later versions of Java as well. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/420613/#p420613 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Honest discussion, why pay for and use jaws over free screen readers?
Re: Honest discussion, why pay for and use jaws over free screen readers? So an update. Looks like migration to 64 bit is becoming more important.https://github.com/nvaccess/nvda/issues/9384Basicly this issue states that Java no longer includes 32 bit access bridge from java 10 and above, which makes it impossible to access Java applications. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/420574/#p420574 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Honest discussion, why pay for and use jaws over free screen readers?
Re: Honest discussion, why pay for and use jaws over free screen readers? yeah I think so. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/419216/#p419216 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Honest discussion, why pay for and use jaws over free screen readers?
Re: Honest discussion, why pay for and use jaws over free screen readers? Thinking about it now, I bett lack of 64 bit support for java was the reason I couldn't use SPSS on win10 64 bit. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/419176/#p419176 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Honest discussion, why pay for and use jaws over free screen readers?
Re: Honest discussion, why pay for and use jaws over free screen readers? I've had it happen before URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/419173/#p419173 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Honest discussion, why pay for and use jaws over free screen readers?
Re: Honest discussion, why pay for and use jaws over free screen readers? You need a larger output for this to happen. I give an example probably many do not use, and that is ADB for Android. For pretty much any output it will first spell it out and then read it properly. Think this also works with CMD apps like Youtube DL but not sure. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/419158/#p419158 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Honest discussion, why pay for and use jaws over free screen readers?
Re: Honest discussion, why pay for and use jaws over free screen readers? You need a larger output for this to happen. I give an example probably many do not use, and that is ADB for Android. For pretty much any output it will first spell it out and then read it properly. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/419158/#p419158 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Honest discussion, why pay for and use jaws over free screen readers?
Re: Honest discussion, why pay for and use jaws over free screen readers? @96, I did that and could not reproduce the problem. If I go into command prompt, press NVDA+2, and type w, I here 'w', as expected. If I then press enter, I get the normal command output tat w isn't recognized as a command, without it spelling anything out. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/419154/#p419154 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Honest discussion, why pay for and use jaws over free screen readers?
Re: Honest discussion, why pay for and use jaws over free screen readers? Thanks, this page is pretty informative. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/419152/#p419152 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Honest discussion, why pay for and use jaws over free screen readers?
Re: Honest discussion, why pay for and use jaws over free screen readers? Hi,NVDA devs explain it in the google summer of code possible projects.https://github.com/nvaccess/nvda/wiki/G … Ideas-List And ethin, to reproduce this, turn on key echo, and type anything in cmd, and you will have it read out letter by letter. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/419142/#p419142 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Honest discussion, why pay for and use jaws over free screen readers?
Re: Honest discussion, why pay for and use jaws over free screen readers? Hi,NVDA devs explain it in the google summer of code possible projects. And ethin, to reproduce this, turn on key echo, and type anything in cmd, and you will have it read out letter by letter. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/419142/#p419142 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Honest discussion, why pay for and use jaws over free screen readers?
Re: Honest discussion, why pay for and use jaws over free screen readers? Could you explain enes how do you switch to UIA for command prompt support, and even more so how will that easily fix the spelling issue as you say? Just curious to know. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/419127/#p419127 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Honest discussion, why pay for and use jaws over free screen readers?
Re: Honest discussion, why pay for and use jaws over free screen readers? Hi.Well, two things, regarding the mod decision, it's believeable, was well explained some posts ago, I fully agree with that.Now, regarding jaws and nvda, I primarly NVDA for my daily work, jaws is just there for one or two tasks where I am in need of the jaws cursor, but else, well, it's lying here in its demo form and that is where it will stay.Greetings Moritz. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/419112/#p419112 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Honest discussion, why pay for and use jaws over free screen readers?
Re: Honest discussion, why pay for and use jaws over free screen readers? @92, I've never experienced the "spells everything" issue your ponting out in command prompt. I'll try to reproduce it.Edit: OK, I have experienced that issue, partially at least, in SSH, where it will speak characters I'm typing when they arrive at the remote system while I'm typing. Weird. And yeah, that issue has been around since 2009, according to the first comment. The last comment was, "I've seen it happening with Windows 10 as well". URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/419105/#p419105 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Honest discussion, why pay for and use jaws over free screen readers?
Re: Honest discussion, why pay for and use jaws over free screen readers? @92, I've never experienced the "spells everything" issue your ponting out in command prompt. I'll try to reproduce it. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/419105/#p419105 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Honest discussion, why pay for and use jaws over free screen readers?
Re: Honest discussion, why pay for and use jaws over free screen readers? Regarding the mod issue, I honestly think that Mahdi wasn't doing anything wrong here. He meerly stated that some people in his country crack it, and that it wasn't worth paying money for. I doubt the idea that JAWS isn't worth the money is a uncommon one. He didn't even say that he himself did any cracking, though even if he had, I think that what people do outside this forum is their own business. As for NVDA, the issues I posted here are not exactly nitch issues. They are all easy reproduceable, and yet command prompt spelling output is issue number 500 or so, which means it was open at least since 2012 or so, and yet noone has done anything to resolve it. I would say that is a really severe issue, and could easily be solved by switching to UIA.These excel issues are also indications that NVDA office support is lacking. These shouldn't even exist.https://github.com/nvaccess/nvda/issues/9317https://github.com/nvaccess/nvda/issues/9195https://github.com/nvaccess/nvda/issues/9194https://github.com/nvaccess/nvda/issues/9193https://github.com/nvaccess/nvda/issues/9147https://github.com/nvaccess/nvda/issues/9145https://github.com/nvaccess/nvda/issues/8963https://github.com/nvaccess/nvda/issues/8923Even the workarounds to speed Excel are a bandaid solution, and in this issue it is pointed out, and that UIA switch should be made.https://github.com/nvaccess/nvda/pull/9257 URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/419096/#p419096 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Honest discussion, why pay for and use jaws over free screen readers?
Re: Honest discussion, why pay for and use jaws over free screen readers? @90, thanks for that explanation. I agreed with Carter's moderation post/action but enjoy the extra knowledge behind the decisions and the conditions under which it is generated.As for the issues on NVDA, I think one of the major problems with fixing these issues is that the issues don't occur universally. I.e.: NVDA doesn't freeze every 30 minutes on all systems like I've heard it does on some, excluding mine (it rarely ever freezes). Granted, some issues are more universal than others, but as a developer I can see how fixing issues that aren't universal can be a bitch, especially when you have no idea what, exactly, causes it, and so have no idea where to start. So you have to implement hacky workarounds and, by the time you've fixed the problem, you don't want to go back and remove the patchwork because its already fixed and you'd rather not regenerat the issue or generate new problems because you fixed that one (granted, that's not really a valid excuse because every time you fix something you break something else), but its generally the mindset and its understandable, to a degree. However, the amount of open issues also plays a part in this. I think that most of them haven't been closed and/or worked on because no one has stepped forward to do so and to take the burden unto themselves. No one has taken the burden unto themselves to aid in the reparation effort, too. So that is down to the community, but we enter a kind of feedback loop here, because that then boils down to NvDA's development documentation being quite poor and not documenting everything, causing people to not understand the code. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/419020/#p419020 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Honest discussion, why pay for and use jaws over free screen readers?
Re: Honest discussion, why pay for and use jaws over free screen readers? Moderation:this is not a warning, a ban, a caution or any other punitive action. It's simply me putting on the mod hat.The issue here with Carter's warning is twofold:1. Mahdi is not new to thisThis is a person who has been banned before, who has been punished before, for the same sort of thing. There have been unrelated warnings and cautions dropped lately, and so Carter's reaction is as much a citation of the community failure clause as anything else. We are trying very hard to make a system that works and treats people fairly, and not one that's going to impose draconian sanctions against individuals at the drop of a hat. If your immediate reaction to Mahdi's warning makes you feel it's overkill, please consider the big picture. It's firm, yes. I'll grant you that much. But overkill? I'm not sure.2. On the discussion of piracy. While it is true that Mahdi did not link to any way to crack Jaws, his post normalized the practice. He did so in such a way as to potentially encourage people to passively do the same thing. In other words, it was unapologetic, essentially saying "I see no reason to pay big money for it, so people in my country just crack it". This is a tacit admission of complicity, either on a moral level or an inclusively literal level. If Mahdi had framed his post in a condemnatory or neutral way, he almost certainly would not have received any feedback for it. For instance, saying something like "I don't have an opinion one way or the other on this, but people in my country often crack Jaws". Or saying, "I used to crack Jaws way back when, but now I just don't use it. It's not worth it to me. Some people still crack it in my country". Both of those are just stating facts, with very little harmful bias. The second is a tacit admission of past guilt, but we're not going to try and slam someone for that.so yeah. Big picture, folks.I do think that a post made in Site and Forum Feedback highlights a very real issue, however. This whole piracy thing is complicated and difficult to pin down easily. So while I understand and mostly support Carter's choice here, I can see, also, how it's ruffled feathers a bit.The long and short of it is simple:If you're going to mention cracks or piracy, it's probably a bad idea to make it seem as if either 1. you're engaged in the practice openly, 2. you're encouraging others to join you, 3. you're passively or actively supporting those who engage in the practice or 4. you have a history of piracy or piracy-related offenses that the community knows about. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/418946/#p418946 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Honest discussion, why pay for and use jaws over free screen readers?
Re: Honest discussion, why pay for and use jaws over free screen readers? hiI saw carters moderation, in post 61 now: I agreed with this topicThis forum's copyright and cracks discussion problemas this post sed, I dont lurned anyone that how's crack, I just tolled that in here this way is choosed for useing jaws: so, I realy hate this moderation types: if you just tell about it you'll be banned? realy realy realy stupid rule URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/418883/#p418883 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Honest discussion, why pay for and use jaws over free screen readers?
Re: Honest discussion, why pay for and use jaws over free screen readers? rather than admitting we've made valid points.I would correct this to 9 valid statistics.. points is a whole different matter, context is pretty important when you want to submit something for peer review, you know, and it actually does not accomplish much in the discussion anyway.A similar argument would have been why fs and jaws used video intercept up until 2012, but oh, no one went and created this winy mess over it.. nor question that with such unfounded severity, they just accepted it... to me it was always ridiculous that I absolutely needed a 300% working screen to use a program to read the screen to me, so most driver installations or new computer setups were impossible at best. But its nice to stop and think that maybe fixing an issue which has a integral or key component to it can break and damage the thing, forever. Which again, is a moot point because you can always learn some coding style, and help out if you really and desperately need or want the process to go faster instead of being very vocal in forums. Which is sadly what most open source software (including liblouis) has turned into nowadays--lots of negative feedback, very little tries at actual improvement work from users that have the potential to help out--which is the nice alternative to not having to pay a single cent for anything. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/418839/#p418839 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Honest discussion, why pay for and use jaws over free screen readers?
Re: Honest discussion, why pay for and use jaws over free screen readers? rather than admitting we've made valid points.I would correct this to 9 valid statistics.. points is a whole different matter, context is pretty important when you want to submit something for peer review, you know, and it actually does not accomplish much in the discussion anyway.A similar argument would have been why fs and jaws used video intercept up until 2012, but oh, no one went and created this winy mess over it.. nor question that with such unfounded severity, they just accepted it... to me it was always ridiculous that I absolutely needed a 300% working screen to use a program to read the screen to me, so most driver installations or new computer setups were impossible at best. But its nice to stop and think that maybe fixing an issue which has a integral or key component to it can break and damage the thing, forever. Which again, is a moot point because you can always learn some coding style, and help out if you really and desperately need or want the process to go faster instead of being very vocal in forums. Which is sadly what most open source software (including liblouis) has turned into nowadays--lots of negative feedback, very little tries at actual improvement work from users that have the potential to help out--which is the nice alternative to not have to pay a single cent for anything. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/418839/#p418839 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Honest discussion, why pay for and use jaws over free screen readers?
Re: Honest discussion, why pay for and use jaws over free screen readers? Sure, if bringing up issues which are worked on or with a reason why they are not worked on is a valid point, then yes, you are indeed right. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/418806/#p418806 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Honest discussion, why pay for and use jaws over free screen readers?
Re: Honest discussion, why pay for and use jaws over free screen readers? you're just hunting for reasons now, using any rationale to justify your position no matter what, rather than admitting we've made valid points. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/418799/#p418799 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Honest discussion, why pay for and use jaws over free screen readers?
Re: Honest discussion, why pay for and use jaws over free screen readers? I do hope you read all those issues before posting. In particular, 6291 is definitely being worked on and there's an improvement just recently so that it does not at least freeze the entire system, right now in a paused state obviously as NVDA is getting ready for a new version and no major code changes will be introduced. 2922 also talks about why such a thing is hard to implement as it stands since it is different based on each language, so unless you did not read all the comments I don't know what's wrong in the current issue staying open. For the one talking about typed characters and command prompt, actually I would not be surprised if that is addressed soon since now NVDA does not support Windows XP and Vista. In any case you can have a temporary workaround, that is create a CMD specific profile where you will have key echo disabled which is what I did until this is fixed. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/418793/#p418793 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Honest discussion, why pay for and use jaws over free screen readers?
Re: Honest discussion, why pay for and use jaws over free screen readers? I do hope you read all those issues before posting. In particular, 6291 in particular is definitely being worked on and there's an improvement just recently so that it does not at least freeze the entire system, right now in a paused state obviously as NVDA is getting ready for a new version and no major code changes will be introduced. 2922 also talks about why such a thing is hard to implement as it stands since it is different based on each language, so unless you did not read all the comments I don't know what's wrong in the current issue staying open. For the one talking about typed characters and command prompt, actually I would not be surprised if that is addressed soon since now NVDA does not support Windows XP and Vista. In any case you can have a temporary workaround, that is create a CMD specific profile where you will have key echo disabled which is what I did until this is fixed. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/418793/#p418793 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Honest discussion, why pay for and use jaws over free screen readers?
Re: Honest discussion, why pay for and use jaws over free screen readers? Another sign NVDA is lagging, recently excel editing cells was broken, and NVDA would just say unknown and provide no feedback. This was only recently fixed a couple weeks ago in snaps. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/418787/#p418787 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Honest discussion, why pay for and use jaws over free screen readers?
Re: Honest discussion, why pay for and use jaws over free screen readers? hi All,Regarding issues, here are some that are annoying, and have been ignored by devs. Specificly, NVDA spelling out console output when key echo is enabled.https://github.com/nvaccess/nvda/issues/3200https://github.com/nvaccess/nvda/issues/513Look how old this one is! And how serious it is.https://github.com/nvaccess/nvda/issues/6291And an issue related to IPA, which remains open even though I provided unicode values of IPA characters to Quentin.https://github.com/nvaccess/nvda/issues/5011and https://github.com/nvaccess/nvda/issues/2922 URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/418785/#p418785 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Honest discussion, why pay for and use jaws over free screen readers?
Re: Honest discussion, why pay for and use jaws over free screen readers? Here's one, now granted, this person didn't exactly follow the template, but it could be closed, siting that as a reason. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/418765/#p418765 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Honest discussion, why pay for and use jaws over free screen readers?
Re: Honest discussion, why pay for and use jaws over free screen readers? The way I see it, is rather than let's say Google directly telling you something like flower, tree, branch, Freedom scientific's servers could parse this info and provide a more natural description. Regarding the name, funny that even smart picture would sound better but definitely not something I will complain about if the feature works. There is a demo in the latest FS cast, and Jaws gives you the probability of the description being accurate, for example it says these elements probably describe the image, and where it is not sure it would say something like these elements may be in the image. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/418743/#p418743 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Honest discussion, why pay for and use jaws over free screen readers?
Re: Honest discussion, why pay for and use jaws over free screen readers? Yeah, regarding Chromium, I was thinking of the same page, however let's not go off topic too much. I'm actually surprised nobody brought up something way better in the latest Jaws update, and that is Jaws's ability to describe pictures. Currently only English, however I will let FS describe this feature. From the changelog: Picture Smart for Describing Images with JAWS and FusionPicture Smart allows you to choose a photo and submit it to be analyzed. A description of the image is then displayed in the JAWS Results Viewer window. Descriptions might include details such as the number of people in the photo, recognizable landmarks, landscape details such as "outdoors with a blue sky and green grass," if there are vehicles such as automobiles or trains, and more. If there is text in the picture, it will OCR the text and provide that as well.To use Picture Smart, press INSERT+SPACEBAR followed by P. Once the Picture Smart layer is active, the following keystrokes are available:• A - Open the Picture Smart dialog box where you can acquire an image from a flatbed scanner or the Freedom Scientific PEARL camera.• F - Describes the currently selected image in File Explorer. Supported images include BMP, JPEG, GIF, TIF, or PNG.• C - Describes an image associated with the current control. For instance, a graphic on a web page or in an email message.• B - Describes the contents of the Windows Clipboard if it contains an image.• QUESTION MARK - Displays help for the Picture Smart layer.JAWS now also creates a new PictureSmart folder which is located in your user documents folder under My Pictures. If a single image is saved to this folder, JAWS will automatically submit it for analyzing and display the resulting description.To use Picture Smart, the "submit annonymous usage data" option must be enabled in Settings Center. This sends encrypted information to Freedom Scientific. The images from Picture Smart are then submitted to the various services (such as Microsoft and Google) which analyze the images and returns the descriptions back to us. These descriptions are then displayed in the Results Viewer. If you attempt to use Picture Smart and this setting is off, a message displays prompting you to turn it on.Note: Picture Smart is currently only available while in the English Language UI of JAWS and Fusion as the services that perform the image analysis do not currently support international languages for descriptions of images. For users of localized versions of JAWS running in versions of Windows other than English, you must switch the JAWS UI language to English to try out this feature. We plan to make Picture Smart available in more languages in the future as these services continue to expand to include additional languages.Except the terrible name, I actually quite like how this feature is described here and I am curious if anybody has the latest update and can write their impressions. NVDA and Narrator have their respective ways to describe a picture, however those are generally generic descriptions while FS actually parses the info on their servers which is quite cool and would allow improvements on their side as well.Edit: It seems this is even more a year for automatic image descriptions than the last year. Check this amazing thing out from the Google's accessibility Twitter account:Google Accessibility, Coming later this year: Screen reader users can ask Chrome to get automatic image descriptions from Google when an image is missing alt text. Get a sneak preview now using Chrome Canary, just open the context menu! #a11y #CSUNATC19 URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/418738/#p418738 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Honest discussion, why pay for and use jaws over free screen readers?
Re: Honest discussion, why pay for and use jaws over free screen readers? Well, considering they use google image translate and other services, all their servers are doing is acting as a relay (a relay that doesn't really need to be there). I am curious though exactly what data they send to their servers that is "encrypted" though...I do like the idea, though considering that NVDA and JAWS leach off of one another, NVDA is bound to get this feature sometime in the future (though hopefully with a better name than picture smart). URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/418741/#p418741 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Honest discussion, why pay for and use jaws over free screen readers?
Re: Honest discussion, why pay for and use jaws over free screen readers? Yeah, regarding Chromium, I was thinking of the same page, however let's not go off topic too much. I'm actually surprised nobody brought up something way better in the latest Jaws update, and that is Jaws's ability to describe pictures. Currently only English, however I will let FS describe this feature. From the changelog: Picture Smart for Describing Images with JAWS and FusionPicture Smart allows you to choose a photo and submit it to be analyzed. A description of the image is then displayed in the JAWS Results Viewer window. Descriptions might include details such as the number of people in the photo, recognizable landmarks, landscape details such as "outdoors with a blue sky and green grass," if there are vehicles such as automobiles or trains, and more. If there is text in the picture, it will OCR the text and provide that as well.To use Picture Smart, press INSERT+SPACEBAR followed by P. Once the Picture Smart layer is active, the following keystrokes are available:• A - Open the Picture Smart dialog box where you can acquire an image from a flatbed scanner or the Freedom Scientific PEARL camera.• F - Describes the currently selected image in File Explorer. Supported images include BMP, JPEG, GIF, TIF, or PNG.• C - Describes an image associated with the current control. For instance, a graphic on a web page or in an email message.• B - Describes the contents of the Windows Clipboard if it contains an image.• QUESTION MARK - Displays help for the Picture Smart layer.JAWS now also creates a new PictureSmart folder which is located in your user documents folder under My Pictures. If a single image is saved to this folder, JAWS will automatically submit it for analyzing and display the resulting description.To use Picture Smart, the "submit annonymous usage data" option must be enabled in Settings Center. This sends encrypted information to Freedom Scientific. The images from Picture Smart are then submitted to the various services (such as Microsoft and Google) which analyze the images and returns the descriptions back to us. These descriptions are then displayed in the Results Viewer. If you attempt to use Picture Smart and this setting is off, a message displays prompting you to turn it on.Note: Picture Smart is currently only available while in the English Language UI of JAWS and Fusion as the services that perform the image analysis do not currently support international languages for descriptions of images. For users of localized versions of JAWS running in versions of Windows other than English, you must switch the JAWS UI language to English to try out this feature. We plan to make Picture Smart available in more languages in the future as these services continue to expand to include additional languages.Except the terrible name, I actually quite like how this feature is described here and I am curious if anybody has the latest update and can write their impressions. NVDA and Narrator have their respective ways to describe a picture, however those are generally generic descriptions while FS actually parses the info on their servers which is quite cool and would allow improvements on their side as well. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/418738/#p418738 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Honest discussion, why pay for and use jaws over free screen readers?
Re: Honest discussion, why pay for and use jaws over free screen readers? @77, yes, their on the right track, I'll give you that. So yes, I do hope NVDA improves and gets their act together. Chromium may have a large quantity of issues but most of them (at least the most recent ones over here) have been 'assigned'. So yes, I do hope to see that issue count slowly decrease -- both for NVDA and for Chromium. I don't follow NVDA's issue list but I do follow their developer and add-on mailing lists.Edit: the link above was for V8, Chromium's _javascript_ engine, apparently. I can't find the list for Chromium though...Either ay, I believe we have seriously derailed this discussion. Let's try to get it back on track shall we? URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/418737/#p418737 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Honest discussion, why pay for and use jaws over free screen readers?
Re: Honest discussion, why pay for and use jaws over free screen readers? @77, yes, their on the right track, I'll give you that. So yes, I do hope NVDA improves and gets their act together. Chromium may have a large quantity of issues but most of them (at least the most recent ones over here) have been 'assigned'. So yes, I do hope to see that issue count slowly decrease -- both for NVDA and for Chromium. I don't follow NVDA's issue list but I do follow their developer and add-on mailing lists.Edit: the link above was for V8, Chromium's _javascript_ engine, apparently. I can't find the list for Chromium though... URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/418737/#p418737 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Honest discussion, why pay for and use jaws over free screen readers?
Re: Honest discussion, why pay for and use jaws over free screen readers? @77, yes, their on the right track, I'll give you that. So yes, I do hope NVDA improves and gets their act together. Chromium may have a large quantity of issues but most of them (at least the most recent ones over here) have been 'assigned'. So yes, I do hope to see that issue count slowly decrease -- both for NVDA and for Chromium. I don't follow NVDA's issue list but I do follow their developer and add-on mailing lists. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/418737/#p418737 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Honest discussion, why pay for and use jaws over free screen readers?
Re: Honest discussion, why pay for and use jaws over free screen readers? @76 isn't that why they made the survey precisely? To see which issues users want fixed the most? Considering that latest release is going towards Office support, I'd hope we all can agree they are on the right track. I do guess that since you follow GitHub as well, you probably saw the snapshots too and should know what's inside 2019.1 URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/418736/#p418736 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Honest discussion, why pay for and use jaws over free screen readers?
Re: Honest discussion, why pay for and use jaws over free screen readers? Oh Ethin, I guess that means that Chromium is also terribly maintained or abandoned, because I mentioned the number of issues on there in one of my previous posts. Probably Firefox too, just lazy to confirm that right now. I will check the link you provided though and edit the post soon. The transfer from a server was just a guess, it might not be the case at all, but whether it is or no that does not mean the project is terribly maintained. If it does for you great, but I certainly would not think that after I view the changelog for each release.Edit: Yes, this link is a great example of something I also wanted to mention in one of my previous posts. Actually you are a smart user when it comes to technology, and you should often realize that with Issues, there is often a chain where one fix is blocked by a merge of one pull request. In this case it was the new speech framework which Jamie worked on, it happened to not be finished yet and thus this remained the case. the speech framework is actually a huge piece of work that will allow many issues to be fixed, you probably realize this yourself so I don't understand what's the intent of causing unnecessary confusion. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/418733/#p418733 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Honest discussion, why pay for and use jaws over free screen readers?
Re: Honest discussion, why pay for and use jaws over free screen readers? @75, never said that it meant that for me. The changelogs do mean that their fixing issues, but the only way to know whether those issues are actually those that need fixing is to dig through each one. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/418734/#p418734 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Honest discussion, why pay for and use jaws over free screen readers?
Re: Honest discussion, why pay for and use jaws over free screen readers? Oh Ethin, I guess that means that Chromium is also terribly maintained or abandoned, because I mentioned the number of issues on there in one of my previous posts. Probably Firefox too, just lazy to confirm that right now. I will check the link you provided though and edit the post soon. The transfer from a server was just a guess, it might not be the case at all, but whether it is or no that does not mean the project is terribly maintained. If it does for you great, but I certainly would not think that after I view the changelog for each release. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/418733/#p418733 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Honest discussion, why pay for and use jaws over free screen readers?
Re: Honest discussion, why pay for and use jaws over free screen readers? Oh, this issue hasn't been closed, and the last comment asked if it would be fixed. Legit issue, methinks... and its gone unfixed and opened since July of 2018 so...Also, the counterargument to "oh, they transferred them from the old server" and whatnot is this: the logical thing to do when you transfer issues (though I don't know how they did it) is to go through and clean up those that aren't an issue. The next logical step is to close those issues that have actually been fixed. Get with the times, man, a project with over 2000 issues open certainly makes one think that it has terrible maintainers or has been abandoned. Looking at the labels, there are 500 issues categorized under 'bug', 122 issues under feature, 335 under enhancement, 237 under Microsoft Office support, 101 under speech, 1 under P1, 115 under P2, 263 under P3, and 79 under P4. That's a total of 1,753 issues right there. And nearly all of them are categorized under other things, such as app freezes, app crashes and so on.I'm not saying that NVAccess is bad or anything. But the reason the 2000 issues are raised repeatedly is that most of them go unaddressed, which is a cascading chain, since if one goes unaddressed, more and more and more go unaddressed, and so on and so forth. Strangely, Issue 8478 is marked as 'priority 1'. The last comment on that issue was, "Quentin is going to have a play with the colours, and then Reef will update the website." Oddly, this issue was never closed, which is odd since I guarantee you that there are lower priority issues that need a much highr priority than that particular one. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/418730/#p418730 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Honest discussion, why pay for and use jaws over free screen readers?
Re: Honest discussion, why pay for and use jaws over free screen readers? Oh, this issue hasn't been closed, and the last comment asked if it would be fixed. Legit issue, methinks... and its gone unfixed and opened since July of 2018 so...Also, the counterargument to "oh, they transferred them from the old server" and whatnot is this: the logical thing to do when you transfer issues (though I don't know how they did it) is to go through and clean up those that aren't an issue. The next logical step is to close those issues that have actually been fixed. Get with the times, man, a project with over 2000 issues open certainly makes one think that it has terrible maintainers or has been abandoned. Looking at the labels, there are 500 issues categorized under 'bug', 122 issues under feature, 335 under enhancement, 237 under Microsoft Office support, 101 under speech, 1 under P1, 115 under P2, 263 under P3, and 79 under P4. That's a total of 1,753 issues right there. And nearly all of them are categorized under other things, such as app freezes, app crashes and so on.I'm not saying that NVAccess is bad or anything. But the reason the 2000 issues are raised repeatedly is that most of them go unaddressed, which is a cascading chain, since if one goes unaddressed, more and more and more go unaddressed, and so on and so forth. Strangely, Issue 8478 is marked as 'priority 1'. The last comment on that issue was, "Quentin is going to have a play with the colours, and then Reef will update the website." Oddly, this issue was never marked 'closed'. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/418730/#p418730 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Honest discussion, why pay for and use jaws over free screen readers?
Re: Honest discussion, why pay for and use jaws over free screen readers? Oh, this issue hasn't been closed, and the last comment asked if it would be fixed. Legit issue, methinks... and its gone unfixed and opened since July of 2018 so...Also, the counterargument to "oh, they transferred them from the old server" and whatnot is this: the logical thing to do when you transfer issues (though I don't know how they did it) is to go through and clean up those that aren't an issue. The next logical step is to close those issues that have actually been fixed. Get with the times, man, a project with over 2000 issues open certainly makes one think that it has terrible maintainers or has been abandoned. Looking at the labels, there are 500 issues categorized under 'bug', 122 issues under feature, 335 under enhancement, 237 under Microsoft Office support, 101 under speech, 1 under P1, 115 under P2, 263 under P3, and 79 under P4. That's a total of 1,753 issues right there. And nearly all of them are categorized under other things, such as app freezes, app crashes and so on. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/418730/#p418730 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Honest discussion, why pay for and use jaws over free screen readers?
Re: Honest discussion, why pay for and use jaws over free screen readers? @71, erm, no? but of course if we are going to be pedantic and are going to be dotting all our I's and crossing all our T's, then and come up with a few far fetched excuses reasons however improbable, then perhaps yes I could see that being considered as an discussion of cracks. I would myself call that a comment which does not instructs how to crack, posts a link to pirated material or anything that a normal (non Extremest copywrite lawmonger) would consider a discussion of cracks, but an opinion and a fact. Unless of course all of us under the new moderators and rules would be worned and banned just for saying I used to use crack of x y z, or where I am from most people just use a pirated copy of jaws (insert name of software) etc.nidza07 wrote:Please, stop with those 2000 issues, it makes you look like a person trying to find something negative to say and nothing else. Agreed with all of that post and tbh I have noticed this kind of behaviour when it comes to apple vs android too, people tend to get in arms about the softwares screenreaders mobile devices they use and the rest is just meh, itnho, objectivity goes down the drain. Nither is perfect is all I say, both have their uses, pros and cons, and this applys to all those things I mentioned above, and compitition is always good, leads to inovation and all such nice stuff, but... getting back to what the op asked, I sometimes wonder myself anything that I get for free or $1000 with more payments down the line to something that I can use for free with 99% functionality being the same and or improving day by day, my pick would be the one that doesn't cost me an arm and a well not just a leg but the torso too Unless of course, I have some organization paying or the government that foots the bill of that $1000 in which case it doesn't cost me anything, or I decide to pirate / crack the thing, with the same results, then I sit down and compare them both and use them both where and when one or the other fails Piece out,Grryf URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/418725/#p418725 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Honest discussion, why pay for and use jaws over free screen readers?
Re: Honest discussion, why pay for and use jaws over free screen readers? @71, erm, no? but of course if we are going to be pedantic and are going to be dotting all our I's and crossing all our T's, then and come up with a few far fatched excuses reasons however improbable, then perhaps yes I could see that being considered as an discussion of cracks. I would myself call that a comment which does not instructs how to crack, posts a link to pirated material or anything that a normal (non Extremest copywrite lawmonger) would consider a discussion of cracks, but an opinion and a fact. Unless of course all of us under the new moderators and rules would be worned and banned just for saying I used to use crack of x y z, or where I am from most people just use a pirated copy of jaws (insert name of software) etc.nidza07 wrote:Please, stop with those 2000 issues, it makes you look like a person trying to find something negative to say and nothing else. Agreed with all of that post and tbh I have noticed this kind of behaviour when it comes to apple vs android too, people tend to get in arms about the softwares screenreaders mobile devices they use and the rest is just meh, itnho, objectivity goes down the drain. Nither is perfect is all I say, both have their uses, pros and cons, and this applys to all those things I mentioned above, and compitition is always good, leads to inovation and all such nice stuff, but... getting back to what the op asked, I sometimes wonder myself anything that I get for free or $1000 with more payments down the line to something that I can use for free with 99% functionality being the same and or improving day by day, my pick would be the one that doesn't cost me an arm and a well not just a leg but the torso too Unless of course, I have some organization paying or the government that foots the bill of that $1000 in which case it doesn't cost me anything, or I decide to pirate / crack the thing, with the same results, then I sit down and compare them both and use them both where and when one or the other fails Piece out,Grryf URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/418725/#p418725 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Honest discussion, why pay for and use jaws over free screen readers?
Re: Honest discussion, why pay for and use jaws over free screen readers? I would like to ask for examples of such issues. There is no issue closed without any reason, or as you put it straight ignored. Each NVDA release has a list of always more than 10 bugfixes in it, so it's not like they are not dealing with bugs. By the way, I have nothing against Jaws in particular, and as I have said in my previous posts screen reader competition is always necessary. If NVDA was to be the only screen reader we have, then a situation like you outline could easily happen, that is them totally ignoring us because we would have no choice but to use it. Thanks to the active competition however no company is really in position to do that. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/418712/#p418712 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Honest discussion, why pay for and use jaws over free screen readers?
Re: Honest discussion, why pay for and use jaws over free screen readers? @69 the rule does state discussion of cracks, that was discussion of a crack.@70 Oh but legit issues, they get dealt with, right? Sadly not, most either stay open with comments from another user confirming or siting examples that yes, this is an issue, or just ignored altogether. SO while I see your point in saying 2,000 issues aren't always what it seems, it's equally absurd to act as if everything is OK with them even though they're straight up ignoring or closing legit issues. If you want to take swipes at the Jaws users, then don't be equally myopic. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/418665/#p418665 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Honest discussion, why pay for and use jaws over free screen readers?
Re: Honest discussion, why pay for and use jaws over free screen readers? Please, stop with those 2000 issues, it makes you look like a person trying to find something negative to say and nothing else. Do you realize that a bunch of those are feature requests and not stuff that makes NVDA buggy or at worst, unusable? Even feature requests are usually not ones reasonable to implement, like one that talks about every language having it's own synth, and so on. Moreover, issues were not always closed back in the days when NVDA was not on GitHub and was on their own server, which were just transfered when moving to GitHub. So if you have nothing to say, don't talk about 2000 issues. It's a ridiculous argument and does not show anything. I can make a request on GitHub for NVDA to have virtual cursor in powerpoint now. Until that is implemented, my issue will stay open, and then we will have one more. Out of those 2000 issues, I would say maybe 200 are valid nowadays, however that's approximate. By the way, Chrome has over 5 issues, so it must be buggy as hell and even unusable by that silly logic. There is also one more point to address. UIA support is a hacky workaround? Okay then, Jaws is slowly switching to that hacky thing which majorly improves performance. You do know that the reason Jaws has a good performance is because it in fact, provides many hacky workarounds that are simply not in NVDA? I personally don't care whether it's hacky or not, as long as it helps users which this clearly does. By the way, UIA support is not the only thing improving office support in the next release. UIA support is in fact still experimental and not recommended, there are other commits introduced to specifically improve performance in Excel, Powerpoint and Word. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/418628/#p418628 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Honest discussion, why pay for and use jaws over free screen readers?
Re: Honest discussion, why pay for and use jaws over free screen readers? Slight OT, but I saw this and I simply could not resist.mahdi-abedi wrote:hiin iran, we can use jaws cracks and we can have it free, but I dont use jaws for its limited thingsI think paying 1000 dollars for jaws, as post 1 sed, is crazy work, cause we have more screan readers and nvda have jaws soundscartertemm wrote:moderation:Mahdi, consider this a warning. Your previous account was banned, after consecutive warnings, on counts of discussion regarding piracy. You were given a second chance on the belief that you wouldn't repeat the same mistakes. It's true your place of residence might have different laws on the issue. But might I remind you, we're not all living in your country of residence. This forum is strictly opposed to theft in all it's forms. While some locations do have a more laid back approach, I hardly think freedom scientific or VFO or whatever they call themselves these days is ok with you cracking their products. If they were you would be able to obtain a license in ways that don't include reverse engineering, disassembly, or otherwise. So here is where we currently stand. This is your third warning in the last couple weeks. Under the community failure clause, one more mistake/rule violation within a reasonable timeframe will, no questions asked, result in a ban. You've received more than your fair share of cautions in the last month and a half alone. Please be careful and watch your step for now on.Personal recommendation, but I highly suggest you read over the rules very carefully. Make sure you understand every single one completely. If you have questions, the topic is their for clarification. Seems a bit over the top to me, unless I'm missing something here, a post perhaps that I skipped over, but that post does not call for a mod worning, since all the user is saying is that they use or can use cracks in their country and that in their opinion using jaws isn't worth paying $1000 for. Many users on the forums have said that they have or used to pirate something that doesn't mean that we are posting links to those pirated cracks here, or giving instructions on how to get it or do it. so. ahem.Now that that's out of the way, I started using jaws back in 2009 2007 when NVDA wasn't even in development, with obviously a pirated version as I am not from one of those first world countries where the government or other billion organizations provide users with asistive software equipment. so yes it would be fare to say that I am quite used to using jaws, but if I am being honest I have found myself switching over to nvda more often than not in the last few years. There are situations where both jaws and NVDA excell at and places where one is better and the other is worse. maybe its just me, though I haven't noticed any of the sluggishness that people have been experiencing with NVDA. Nvda has 2000 open issues, that is probably bugs? I do not know if it would be appropriate to call them as such, but I am sure that jaws has many such too, but not so open for us to see, unless jaws is on github too? Grryf URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/418620/#p418620 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Honest discussion, why pay for and use jaws over free screen readers?
Re: Honest discussion, why pay for and use jaws over free screen readers? I actually agree about virtual curser support, since that is oen feature of Supernova I miss in NVdA. While you can get a long way with object navigation keys in NvdA there are situations where they are less convenient, though this is one thing I've seen improve. I will say though console window support in NVdA isn't something I've had issues with once i started to use object nav keys, indeed while the virtual curser in NVdA is not as sophisticated as Supernova's (or at least the way Supernova's used to work in Xp and windows 7), the reading of incoming text in NvdA is superior to Sueprnova's. As to office support I can't speak for Xl since I never used the thing, but I never had issues with NVdA and MS word, which is a program I use on a daily basis. Microsoft Outlook is mostly okay as well, though to be honest I've never liked outlook anyway, it just seems overly complex and cluttered and has done ever since the Xp days, which is why I used outlook express, and now Thunderbird. I can't speak for Jaws here, and likely won't be able to until they actually charge a fair price. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/418601/#p418601 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Honest discussion, why pay for and use jaws over free screen readers?
Re: Honest discussion, why pay for and use jaws over free screen readers? I actually agree about virtual curser support, since that is oen feature of Supernova I miss in NVdA. While you can get a long way with object navigation keys in NvdA there are situations where they are less convenient, though this is one thing I've seen improve. I will say though console window support in NVdA isn't something I've had issues with once i started to use object nav keys, indeed while the virtual curser in NVdA is not as sophisticated as Supernova's (or at least the way Supernova's used to work in Xp and windows 7), the reading of incoming text in NvdA is superior to Sueprnova's. As to office support I can't speak for Xl since I never used the thing, but I never had issues with NVdA and MS word, which is a program I use on a daily basis. Microsoft Outlook is mostly okay as well, though to be honest I've never liked outlook anyway, it just seems overly complex and cluttered and has done ever since the Xp days, which is why I used outlook express, and now Thunderbird. I can't speak for Jaws here, but as I said, until Jaws is available at a fair price I don't see the point of even investing time into trying the thing, not when there is a perfectly good and usable alternative around. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/418601/#p418601 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Honest discussion, why pay for and use jaws over free screen readers?
Re: Honest discussion, why pay for and use jaws over free screen readers? Do you still need an add-on to do something as simple as use Dropbox with NVDA? I never did quite get that. Aside from that, if I'm testing something in a VM, NVDA is perfect. If I'm doing something actually productive, for example something I'm being paid to do, it's JAWS all the way. NVDA just isn't there yet. I have no doubt that one day it will be, though I'm curious if Narrator will beat it there, but it's not there yet. Until it is, what I have works--and if ever it doesn't, it's probably more Microsoft's fault than VFO. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/418586/#p418586 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Honest discussion, why pay for and use jaws over free screen readers?
Re: Honest discussion, why pay for and use jaws over free screen readers? I find it amusing that, in a topic where the original poster is asking about the merits of JAWS, there are so many posts where people are professing the merits of NVDA. Seems a bit off topic?I myself have always loved JAWS, and while I've started to use NVDA lately, it's neither through a desire to switch nor on any fault of JAWS itself. JAWS to me is straight forward in its operation, gives me a virtual mouse cursor with which I can review and interaction with the screen (and which I find works much better than NVDA's review options in many cases), allows me to quickly and easily script different behaviours when required (I find JScript much easier than having to learn Python), and of course has natively baked in support for many applications. The recent trend of adding slightly frivolous features is I think a result of JAWS dropping out of the professional market and into the home user arena, but even some of those frivolous features can sometimes be useful.JAWS works a lot better in console applications than I believe NVDA does, as there have definitely been times I could not get NVDA to in any way read a console window (such as the command prompt). I also prefer to use JAWS in MUSHClient, since I grew up with GMUD, and so are used to playing MUD's with the JAWS cursor to review the screen, rather than having to control tab to a separate review window. But it's for reasons like this that I don't mind using both. As with a set of kitchen tools, there will be things you'd use a fork for, and there will be things you'd use a spoon for, and others you can use either (and in those cases, personal preference is the only thing to consider).Kai URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/418576/#p418576 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Honest discussion, why pay for and use jaws over free screen readers?
Re: Honest discussion, why pay for and use jaws over free screen readers? Except NVDA are falling behind. Come on already, Office support should be one of the staples of any screen reader since its so widely used, this means fixing issues promptly when they come out. Also, why then, do they have over 2,000 open issues if they're staying on top of things. Time to wake up and smell the coffee, NVDA has some major issues, and their hacky work around UIA patch is just a bandaid over a much larger issue. No need to get all passive aggressive either, that kind of thing isn't warranted in a discourse that's meant to be civil. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/418573/#p418573 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Honest discussion, why pay for and use jaws over free screen readers?
Re: Honest discussion, why pay for and use jaws over free screen readers? It's okay, we get that you are not happy with NVDA, but you do not have to voice it in every post. This does not show that NVDA is falling behind, it shows that VFO came up with something actually innovative, which is not bad at all considering that first they didn't do something innovative for quite a while, and second it can bring something new to NVDA as well. Screen reader competition can be only a good thing, and who says browse mode wont be available just like virtual cursor at some point. When audio ducking was introduced in NVDA, Jaws introduced it shortly after. When command search was introduced in Jaws, NVDA provided something similar in it's input gestures dialog. So instead of complaining on the first day something new comes, just be patient for a while, perhaps request it as a feature with a good use case and somebody will definitely take it into consideration. There are numerous examples of screen readers basing features on one another, so I would not be surprised if it happens, however people will still complain, in that case that NVDA copies Jaws, because some users are never happy. By the way, latest NVDA should introduce performance improvements to Office, which should be released in about a month, so that shows how much Nv Access isn't listening to people and lacks good programmers. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/418572/#p418572 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Honest discussion, why pay for and use jaws over free screen readers?
Re: Honest discussion, why pay for and use jaws over free screen readers? Well, VFO just came out with an update, that among other things, added virtual curser support to powerpoint. This can be useful, and shows how NVDA is falling behind in regards to office support. For a student, office is the app you literally use for most of your work. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/418557/#p418557 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Honest discussion, why pay for and use jaws over free screen readers?
Re: Honest discussion, why pay for and use jaws over free screen readers? As for myself, I've always used JAWS and it's always worked for me. If I could no longer afford to keep my license current, I would have no choice but to switch to NVDA. Is that first time price of $1000 or so a bit expensive? Heck yes it is, and I don't know why that first time price is that high. That is at least worth six SMA's currently. If someone goes for a home annual license, that's a much better deal overall even though the price for two years is about $30 more than an SMA. I'm sticking with my SMA for that reason, and because throwing away an old license when I can afford to keep it current seems like a waste. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/417707/#p417707 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Honest discussion, why pay for and use jaws over free screen readers?
Re: Honest discussion, why pay for and use jaws over free screen readers? moderation:Mahdi, consider this a warning. Your previous account was banned, after consecutive warnings, on counts of discussion regarding piracy. You were given a second chance on the belief that you wouldn't repeat the same mistakes. It's true your place of residence might have different laws on the issue. But might I remind you, we're not all living in your country of residence. This forum is strictly opposed to theft in all it's forms. While some locations do have a more laid back approach, I hardly think freedom scientific or VFO or whatever they call themselves these days is ok with you cracking their products. If they were you would be able to obtain a license in ways that don't include reverse engineering, disassembly, or otherwise. So here is where we currently stand. This is your third warning in the last couple weeks. Under the community failure clause, one more mistake/rule violation within a reasonable timeframe will, no questions asked, result in a ban. You've received more than your fair share of cautions in the last month and a half alone. Please be careful and watch your step for now on.Personal recommendation, but I highly suggest you read over the rules very carefully. Make sure you understand every single one completely. If you have questions, the topic is their for clarification. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/417688/#p417688 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Honest discussion, why pay for and use jaws over free screen readers?
Re: Honest discussion, why pay for and use jaws over free screen readers? moderation:Mahdi, consider this a warning. Your previous account was banned, after consecutive warnings, on counts of discussion regarding piracy. It's true your place of residence might have different laws on the issue. But might I remind you, we're not all living in your country of residence. This forum is strictly opposed to theft in all it's forms. While some locations do have a more laid back approach, I hardly think freedom scientific or VFO or whatever they call themselves these days is ok with you cracking their products. If they were you would be able to obtain a license in ways that don't include reverse engineering, disassembly, or otherwise. So here is where we currently stand. This is your third warning in the last couple weeks. Under the community failure clause, one more mistake/rule violation within a reasonable timeframe will, no questions asked, result in a ban. You've received more than your fair share of cautions in the last month and a half alone. Please be careful and watch your step for now on.Personal recommendation, but I highly suggest you read over the rules very carefully. Make sure you understand every single one completely. If you have questions, the topic is their for clarification. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/417688/#p417688 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Honest discussion, why pay for and use jaws over free screen readers?
Re: Honest discussion, why pay for and use jaws over free screen readers? Hmmm, no ideas there, I paid with paypal here in England so I don't see why Cannida would be any different. They are fairly good about contact though in my experience, when the license on my desktop broke due to a corrupt NvdA settings file I got a very quick response from tech support and the problem was sorted in short order, so again, while the hardware keys are an arse, at least the company seem relatively accessible. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/417681/#p417681 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Honest discussion, why pay for and use jaws over free screen readers?
Re: Honest discussion, why pay for and use jaws over free screen readers? Replied. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/417667/#p417667 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Honest discussion, why pay for and use jaws over free screen readers?
Re: Honest discussion, why pay for and use jaws over free screen readers? @Dark, I tried to purchase a licence for vocalizer-nvda, but the paypal checkout didn't work, is it not available in Canada? URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/417643/#p417643 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Honest discussion, why pay for and use jaws over free screen readers?
Re: Honest discussion, why pay for and use jaws over free screen readers? @enes, I sent you a PM, I know not a lot of people go check their PMs, that's why I write it here, sorry for the spam guys. You don't have to notify me, I'll monitor my inbox in the next few days. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/417640/#p417640 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Honest discussion, why pay for and use jaws over free screen readers?
Re: Honest discussion, why pay for and use jaws over free screen readers? @Origine yes, vocaliser expressive does work as an NVdA addon, you get all the voices plus dialogue and language switching, though its only licensed for three machines, and part of the cost goes to maintaining NvdA.My only miner issue is that the hardware specific license keys can be a pain, for example, I hadn't used my laptop for a while, then when I ran it, windows updated and I needed to reactivate vocaliser license, but this is an issue with the way the nuance licenses work rather than with NvdA. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/417621/#p417621 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Honest discussion, why pay for and use jaws over free screen readers?
Re: Honest discussion, why pay for and use jaws over free screen readers? Hi,Origine, I would love to know how one can intern at microsoft. I will be looking for work soon, and would be very interested to do so. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/417577/#p417577 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Honest discussion, why pay for and use jaws over free screen readers?
Re: Honest discussion, why pay for and use jaws over free screen readers? In a lot of situations, people really have no choice, when NVDA is seen as evil for being open source. I know things are evolving, but this is still a reality for a lot of companies, sadly. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/417574/#p417574 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Honest discussion, why pay for and use jaws over free screen readers?
Re: Honest discussion, why pay for and use jaws over free screen readers? @Dark (48), I didn't know they had vocalizer expressive voices with NVDA! I'm really considering buying the voices and give NVDA a try for a few weeks to satisfy my curiosity.@enes (49), it was an Microsoft intern activity when I interned there. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/417480/#p417480 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Honest discussion, why pay for and use jaws over free screen readers?
Re: Honest discussion, why pay for and use jaws over free screen readers? hiin iran, we can use jaws cracks and we can have it free, but I dont use jaws for its limited thingsI think paying 1000 dollars for jaws, as post 1 sed, is crazy work, cause we have more screan readers and nvda have jaws sounds URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/417360/#p417360 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Honest discussion, why pay for and use jaws over free screen readers?
Re: Honest discussion, why pay for and use jaws over free screen readers? hiin iran, we can use jaws cracks and we can them free, but I dont use jaws for its limited things URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/417360/#p417360 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Honest discussion, why pay for and use jaws over free screen readers?
Re: Honest discussion, why pay for and use jaws over free screen readers? Of course there are bugs in UIA support, that's why it is in advanced settings and not on by default as it otherwise would be. Once everything is fixed it will be the default. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/417359/#p417359 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Honest discussion, why pay for and use jaws over free screen readers?
Re: Honest discussion, why pay for and use jaws over free screen readers? and Rashad, what accessible stats package do you use with NVDA? Stata doesn't work, SPSS only works with Jaws because NVDA doesn't support 64 bit Java. Your best bet is to use R from the command line, because R studio isn't usable at all.Anoter point on office UIA support. There are bugs with NVDA office UIA support. Specificly, comments and corrections aren't read properly. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/417358/#p417358 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Honest discussion, why pay for and use jaws over free screen readers?
Re: Honest discussion, why pay for and use jaws over free screen readers? 46, thunderbird isn't actually that much of a pain to use. I have used it since 2012, and it works quite well. They have fixed the compacting issue, so it asks you to compact once gains exceed 20 mb. 42, I wold be curious how you got a private Q with Microsoft's vice chief in in user experiences. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/417357/#p417357 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Honest discussion, why pay for and use jaws over free screen readers?
Re: Honest discussion, why pay for and use jaws over free screen readers? @Origine as regards NvdA and voices, I'm running vocaliser expressive with nvdA right now, see https://vocalizer-nvda.com/Yes, I had to pay for the voice licensing, but it was worth it as the various free voices NVdA came with just weren't responsive enough to work for me, and Being vocaliser you get all the language switching etc. I'm also a bit confused as to what people mean about NvdA having a "complex setup or needing many addons. I started with NvdA in January of 2017, and only downloaded my first addon after a good week or so of using the program, and that while learning a new version of windows at the same time. I can't even say its that there were similarities between NVda and Supernova, since other than web shortcuts such as h for heading or b for button they really aren't too similar.As for addons, I only use a few addons, and those for programs rather than to add general functionality to NVdA, such as speaking text in interactive fiction interpreters or adding some extra control info for vlc media player. I think the only pure functionality addon I've downloaded is the one to speak clipboard actions, since I like to know when I've copied text to the clipboard. I also can't claim any specific aptitude with screen readers or experience either. My attempts to use my lady's version of Window eyes were quite a disaster, and my one try out with Jaws wasn't any better. Indeed, maybe the "complexity" people mention is simply a matter of Jaws and NVdA doing things differently, and people being used to the one as opposed to the other. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/417309/#p417309 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Honest discussion, why pay for and use jaws over free screen readers?
Re: Honest discussion, why pay for and use jaws over free screen readers? Security... Security... SECURITY! Online security! Fact: your online information is never truly going to be private. This really is the end of the discussion, but everyone starts arguing from this point onward rather than truly examining this statement for what it is, so let us keep going before we atempt to throw the security aspect out the door entirely as it pertains to screen reading technology. Please bare with me if you will, as this will more than likely be a rather lengthy post.Every company is itching to sell your information to someone to make extra money for themselves. If they haven't done it yet, chances are they will in future, because just as everyone is itching to sell it, someone is itching to buy it, and you don't need to necessarily be a security official with a warrant to obtain it, particularly in the United states. Consider how many of these companies and their products you've used in your lifetime:1. AOL2. Microsoft.3. Apple4. Amazon.5. Google.6. Yahoo.7. Verizon.8. Twitter.9. Facebook.10. Netflix.11. Hulu12. Ebay13. Paypal.14. Timewarner/spectrum/comcast/ any brantching subsitiary.15. AT/any previous bell servics such as southwestern or Bell south, singular wireless and other brantching subsitiaries.16. t-Mobile and any other services they are affiliated with.17. Cricket and any other services they are affiliated with.18. Uber19. Lift20. If none of these apply to you, do you do any online banking, transactions or commerce of any kind, online dating, cloud computing, college courses and or other online education, email, sending, receiving, etc? More than likely, you do, as you are currently visiting audiogames net, and unless you're seriously taking a ton of steps to not leave a footprint, someone's already got your number.So, how much of the above applys to you? I obviously can't provide the answer to that. How much can you do about it? You can move to another country, block _javascript_ from ever running on your PC, always delete internet data after browsing sessions, bounce through as many open wireless networks as you can, brows around for a good VPN that doesn't log your data at all, get yourself a ProxyGambit, never use a single addon or plugin or anything that claims to be an extra when browsing, listening to music or overall general computing and online consumption, always remember to use HTTPS at the beginning of every URL and hope the website you're browsing supports it, never download files off the net, never plug a drive containing sensitive data into your computer while you're online, use as many throwaway emails and other socializing accounts as you can with as many different passwords as you can remember, and maybe, just maybe after doing all of that consistently you'll be, well, secure... Safe... Something...Except for the people factor, because unless you're flat out avoiding people online, someone's going to give you up, eventually, either as an accident or direct act of malice. Whether you believe people are inherently good or evil, there is one thing people all are, and that is able to communicate on some level or another, through facial expressions, auditory signals, sign language... I'm sure you get the point. Unless the person on the other end is braindead, they can communicate, and that communication translates into knowledge/information, meaning that unless you're going to just stop trusting every single soul you encounter you're pretty much going to have to deal with acquiring something no security suite or firm can sell you, called common sense!What does that have to do with screen readers? Have you ever stopped to consider the many actions that screen readers, all of them, perform, by default, on a computer? How many of them are similar to what addware and spyware do? Run in the background once allowed to do so? Install other pieces of software? Gather information? Log said information? Ability to send that information elsewhere? Alter the behavior of a piece of software? Send a restart command to your computer? All of these are things I've seen screen readers and spyware, both capable of doing. Truth is, in many places and for many reasons, spyware, addware and stealware are legal pieces of software that are allowed and, in some cases, may already come bundled with your PC!No, I'm not saying security isn't important... I'm saying security isn't an honest answer on either side of the fence where screen reader discussion is taking place. Don't tell me JAWS is more secure than NVDA because it's closed; it belongs to a company that is doing goodness only knows what with it behind closed doors. Don't tell me NVDA is more secure than JAWS because it's open-source; it belongs to anyone who can modify it, essentially making it a free-for-all that, unless i'm a dev who can examine it closely, can really do just about anything I might
Re: Honest discussion, why pay for and use jaws over free screen readers?
Re: Honest discussion, why pay for and use jaws over free screen readers? For me, JAWS has a few good things about it.* The developement team are full time, paid employees with at least some structure, I'd hope. They also probably haven't changed much over the years.* JAWS is a single package, that has enough scripts to do most things an employee needs to do.* JAWS stands for Job Access with Speech. This means, to m at least, that it is more geared to employment and use by people on the job. This means JAWS can't be sluggish with Microsoft Office, should read things in an *efficient* manner, and should be as configurable as possible for meeting the needs of employees who use it.Now, to me, NVDA works fine because I know how to use it well and what addons to get. I load it with good sounding voices, because Microsoft's Windows 10 voices have aweful pauses and boring entonation, and all they have done so far is patch Narrator to not pause for so long. I have the clock addon to keep up with the time, and use programs that work well with NVDA.But a JAWS user, some one who may have just gotten hired, would want to be *productive* and *efficient* in their work, not hunting down an addon and using an obscure program to get something just about good enough. No. They want to get to work, and they need a screen reader that is ready to work as hard as they do.Now, I don't agree with their pricing, they just love to have money and they know that bisunesses and governments will give it to them. But for home use, NVDA. Jobs, use what wis effective for the job.One thing I've learned, through giving my computer multiple operating system disorder from switching from Windows to Linux to another Linux and Windows to Linux... Is that you shouldn't use something just because of ideology, especially if you have a disability. Sighted people could use Linux just fine, even in work situations most likely, if they stick with Debian or something. But for blind people, use what is effective and efficient and gets the job done well, not something where you have to fiddle around and learn markdown or LaTex or Org-mode and set up Gnus or Mutt or Seamonkey or fiddle with Thunderbird's compacting settings and make it not hog resources and such, taking valuable time when you could just be getting your work done.This is why I used a Mac during my internship as an Assistive Technology Instructor: I knew it well, could fly through email, write documents well in Pages, and had a Windows machine to use NVDA with Google Docs with because Google and Apple aren't on such great terms.All in all, at home, use NVDA, give them some money if you can, and learn stuff. But on the job, focus on the job, use what makes you fast, effective, and efficient. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/417300/#p417300 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Honest discussion, why pay for and use jaws over free screen readers?
2019-03-08
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — Off-topic room : Mohammed-mufleh via Audiogames-reflector
Re: Honest discussion, why pay for and use jaws over free screen readers? I think it is a matter of getting used to the scream reader for example, you have used Jaws for lets say 4 years. In most cases you will find it a bit hard to get back to NVDA. About the Jaws i actually have a lisance for the 2018 version, problem hear with the schools lisance in my area is it only is supported for a year and then they will have to pay again for a upgrdation which will take sevrle years mabey or when Jaws the version you are on is no longer supported. That is when they will upgrade Jaws for the user. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/417299/#p417299 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Honest discussion, why pay for and use jaws over free screen readers?
Re: Honest discussion, why pay for and use jaws over free screen readers? To answer the OP's question:1) I didn't find equally good voices on NVDA. Now while some people might say they don't care and some might say they love the voices on NVDA, I prefer more natural voices like the Vocalizer Expressive ones. To me, if I'm gonna hear a voice talking to me all day long, it better be good. Plus I use a French voice and an English one and I like how I can quickly switch between the two voice profiles because I switch all the time. I'm pretty sure this must be possible too with NVDA, but I didn't find how IIRC last time I tried.2) I find the onbaording easier with jaws. You launch JAWS, next, next, next, install. Then there is a configuration wizard to quickly setup jaws and voila, you have a very good screen-reader out of the box. Now I agree that while there is a ton of options and configurations, it's somewhat painful to dive in the settings center and you most often than not have to guess what you are looking for in the search bar. When I tried NVDA, there was not enough options for me, I couldn't customize it to my liking. Perhaps I needed to install addons, but I find it particularly painful to go seek addons, find what I'm looking for, install it and stuff. I'd prefer that the official addons could be a list of checkbox during the installation and ask which ones you want.Is it worth the money? I don't know, for me it's free versus free and I got enrolled in the jaws propaganda when I was young and naive. Would I pay $1000 for jaws? Probably not at first. I'd really power try NVDA and if I really go nuts about NVDA, I'd buy a jaws licence before breaking my computer apart. Though I think iI'd get used to NVDA very quickly and it also depends how much money I would make in that hypothetic situation .Welp, that's pretty much it. I don't see other differences, but voice is important to me. Also, I'm not qualified to say if jaws is more responsive than NVDA or the other way around, I'm just saying what drawback I had when trying NVDA for a few weeks. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/417298/#p417298 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Honest discussion, why pay for and use jaws over free screen readers?
Re: Honest discussion, why pay for and use jaws over free screen readers? I am an NVDA user.When I tried using Jaws, I felt like it was eating at my system more than NVDA was. Additionally, the screen resolution limitation is a huge downer for me, due to the software I use requiring, in some cases, 1080p minimal resolution (Superior Drummer 3).As for office related stuff, I don't use Microsoft Office, but a free program called Open Office. It has alot of, if not all the same capabilities as Microsoft Office, and can even read/write documents in MS format, is free, and works very well with NVDA, at least for me.As for music, I use Reaper, because using outdated Sonar with Caketalking scripts, which are equally outdated, doesn't appeal to me. I found, for my applications, Reaper has done everything I ever needed it to, plus some, and NVDA is the home of SIBIAC which is an awesome add-on that makes a lot of very useful VST plugins accessible in a very unique way.Everyone is going to have something that works best for them, and in my case, it's NVDA. Not saying I will hate Jaws, because Jaws is the first screen reader I ever learned how to use back when I was in high school, and shortly after; even when I could see, I always had low vision, so I would actually test myself, and use Jaws with my monitor off, just to get the proper feel of it, so for me, I do have to say thank you to Jaws for getting me started with Screen readers, but in the end, I ended up jumping ships to better fit my needs. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/417296/#p417296 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Honest discussion, why pay for and use jaws over free screen readers?
Re: Honest discussion, why pay for and use jaws over free screen readers? @38, it's funny, because I asked Rajesh Jha, the executive vice-president of experiences and devices at Microsoft that exact same question: why they didn't acquire Freedom Scientific to then have all those highly qualified accessibility engineers and why they were putting their money on narrator instead. Although I don't think it's confidential, I'm not sure I'm allowed to say everything he answered me because it was kind of a private Q, but I wasn't really satisfied with his answer anyway, he definitely has a lot of work to do and discussions about a whole ton of subjects that I didn't expect him to have the answer, but basically, I'd say it has to do with security and the mirror driver thing. He told me something interesting though. I asked him why accessibility, why were they investing so much in accessibility. He told me that sometimes, they do an accessibility feature that turns out to be a feature sighted people like too. He gave the example of speech synthesis reading incoming messages/e-mails, he said it turned out be be super useful for drivers in cars because they could hear their messages without having to look at the screen. Now obviously, it's kind of a nice answer, but it's one way he looks at it.However, I also went to Microsoft's accessibility summit and I think it was open to everybody so I guess there is no secret here. I asked the guy in charge of narrator your same question after a talk on narrator's new features. He told me that they were aiming a lot towards multiplatform, they were already showcasing narrator on Xbox, so obviously you couldn't port jaws to Xbox, it would be a nightmare. I then asked him if they were collaborating with jaws even though they were working on their own screen-reader and he told me "we are collaborating very closely, very closely.".In the end, and this is my own opinion, it's a question of visibility (no pun intended) and money. It's expensive to do an acquisition and the upper management have other stuff to do. They care about accessibility, they really do, whether it's for complyance or empathy, although I'd say it's probably a bit more of the latter because of a ton of reasons. However, a company has to make money, I mean shareholders always want the famous double digit growth. While I'd personally love to see Micrrosoft acquire Freedom Scientific must it only be to get those awesome engineers, I'd probably not do it if I were the CEO, because it does not make a lot of sense money-wise. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/417294/#p417294 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Honest discussion, why pay for and use jaws over free screen readers?
Re: Honest discussion, why pay for and use jaws over free screen readers? @36, What would be the difference between addons, app modules and global plugins? I'd think an addon would just be a package for an app module, global plugin or driver, and thus that exception would apply to it. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/417189/#p417189 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Honest discussion, why pay for and use jaws over free screen readers?
Re: Honest discussion, why pay for and use jaws over free screen readers? No. An addon is basically a user friendly way to install either app modules, global plugins, synth drivers or braille display drivers. In fact, just copying app modules global plugins etc will no longer work in next NVDA, however if you are a dev you can enable a temporary directory from which NVDA will still load them. More or less any extention for NVDA should be packaged as an addon unless it's a temporary work you are testing as a dev. Something not related to this. Totally forgot how actually, secure, Jaws display driver installation is. It's so secure that I remember literally being unable to boot Windows after some Jaws installations in the XP days. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/417199/#p417199 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Honest discussion, why pay for and use jaws over free screen readers?
Re: Honest discussion, why pay for and use jaws over free screen readers? @39, I honestly don't know, and The NVDA addon development guide doesn't explain the difference (though they are working on it, supposedly). I know there is, however, a difference. An app module for example only works in a particular app. An addon usually works everywhere. Not sure what a global plugin is though compared to an addon, but the NVDA appdata directory does have different folders, so I suspect there is a difference. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/417194/#p417194 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Honest discussion, why pay for and use jaws over free screen readers?
Re: Honest discussion, why pay for and use jaws over free screen readers? @36, What would be the difference between addons, add modules and global plugins? I'd think an addon would just be a package for an app module, global plugin or driver, and thus that exception would apply to it. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/417189/#p417189 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Honest discussion, why pay for and use jaws over free screen readers?
Re: Honest discussion, why pay for and use jaws over free screen readers? @36, What would be the difference between addons, add modules and global plugins? I'd think an addon would just be a package for an app module, global plugin or driver, and thus that exception would apply. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/417189/#p417189 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Honest discussion, why pay for and use jaws over free screen readers?
Re: Honest discussion, why pay for and use jaws over free screen readers? @36, What would be the difference between addons, add modules and global plugins? I'd think those would mostly be the same thing... URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/417189/#p417189 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Honest discussion, why pay for and use jaws over free screen readers?
Re: Honest discussion, why pay for and use jaws over free screen readers? I think either an enterprise specific version, or the ability to install the screen reader with add-ons, the Python console, and other developer features permanently disabled would solve this problem. If it's such a concern, let the IT team install and deploy the screen reader this way. I tell you what though, using JAWS in an IT role sounds like a royal pain in the ass. Why worry about authorizations, license servers, installing video drivers, etc onto each and every machine when you can walk around with a USB drive or use Narrator?Freedom Scientific is going to learn the hard way that they can't continue their price gouging practices. That might have worked in the 90s and early 2000s, but we have more options that work very well for 99% of the tasks someone would need to do. If applications aren't accessible, developers should take the time to fix them. Scripts are a band-aid solution. We should be trying to improve the world, not temporarily solving problems and making excuses.I agree wholeheartedly with Dark. Once Windows 10 is more mainstream, I hope agencies will finally see sense and stop feeding this monopolistic corporation. The JAWS annual license is a good idea, but it's only available in the United States and is far too late in my opinion. I still think it would be a great idea if the JAWS and ZoomText divisions of Vispero were purchased by Microsoft. Imagine the talent those folks could add to the Narrator, Magnifier, and Disability Answer desk teams. Sadly, I don't think Microsoft would go for that. Oh well. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/417175/#p417175 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Honest discussion, why pay for and use jaws over free screen readers?
Re: Honest discussion, why pay for and use jaws over free screen readers? I think either an enterprise specific version, or the ability to install the screen reader with add-ons, the Python console, and other developer features permanently disabled would solve this problem. If it's such a concern, let the IT team install and deploy the screen reader this way. I tell you what though, using JAWS in an IT role sounds like a royal pain in the ass. Why worry about authorizations, license servers, installing video drivers, etc onto each and every machine when you can walk around with a USB drive or use Narrator?Freedom Scientific is going to learn the hard way that they can't continue their price gouging practices. That might have worked in the 90s and early 2000s, but we have more options that work very well for 99% of the tasks someone would need to do. If applications aren't accessible, developers should take the time to fix them. Scripts are a band-aid solution. We should be trying to improve the world, not temporarily solve problems and make excuses.I agree wholeheartedly with Dark. Once Windows 10 is more mainstream, I hope agencies will finally see sense and stop feeding this monopolistic corporation. The JAWS annual license is a good idea, but it's only available in the United States and is far too late in my opinion. I still think it would be a great idea if the JAWS and ZoomText divisions of Vispero were purchased by Microsoft. Imagine the talent those folks could add to the Narrator, Magnifier, and Disability Answer desk teams. Sadly, I don't think Microsoft would go for that. Oh well. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/417175/#p417175 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Honest discussion, why pay for and use jaws over free screen readers?
Re: Honest discussion, why pay for and use jaws over free screen readers? I think either an enterprise specific version, or the ability to install the screen reader with add-ons, the Python console, and other developer features permanently disabled would solve this problem. If it's such a concern, let the IT team install and deploy the screen reader this way. I tell you what though, using JAWS in an IT role sounds like a royal pain in the ass. Why worry about authorizations, license servers, installing video drivers, etc onto each and every machine when you can walk around with a USB drive or use Narrator?Freedom Scientific is going to learn the hard way that they can't continue their price gouging practices. That might have worked in the 90s and early 2000s, but we have more options that work very well for 99% of the tasks someone would need to do. If applications aren't accessible, developers should take the time to fix them. Scripts are a band-aid solution. We should be trying to improve the world, not temporarily solve problems and make excuses.I agree wholeheartedly with Dark. Once Windows 10 is more mainstream, I hope agencies will finally see sense and stop feeding this monopolistic corporation. The JAWS annual license is a good idea, but it's only available in the United States and is far too late in my opinion. I still think it would be a great idea if the JAWS and ZoomText divisions of Vispero were purchased by Microsoft. Imagine what those folks could add to the Narrator, Magnifier, and Disability Answer desk teams. Sadly, I don't think Microsoft would go for that. Oh well. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/417175/#p417175 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Honest discussion, why pay for and use jaws over free screen readers?
Re: Honest discussion, why pay for and use jaws over free screen readers? #32 Yes you would be responsible, but the breach would still have occurred. I'm not saying NVDA itself is insecure, I know that it is audited, and I know that addons wishing to be featured on the community page also go through a review process. I'm saying that NVDA can open a door through the use of addons that otherwise would not be open. That's why NvAccess needs to make an enterprise edition that goes through maybe even a more rigorous process, and doesn't allow addons.People disobey company rules all the time. I've been on countless twitch streams and heard chats like watching at work. Hell, some apps even have a boss key, which lets you tray the thing in one command, I can only think of one right now though, which is VLC> Look at people who come in 10 minutes late every day, or people who take a 35 minute lunch or a 40 minute lunch when the period is 30 minutes. People use the phones for personal stuff, the printers for their own crap, etc. So it's not unheard of that someone would also just install addons. after all, what's the harm in better this or that, or a better clock, checking the weather, etc. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/417172/#p417172 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Honest discussion, why pay for and use jaws over free screen readers?
Re: Honest discussion, why pay for and use jaws over free screen readers? @34, that's odd. I think that was talking about app modules, global plugins and other drivers. Nothing about addons though. Either way you can still charge for the code; the Lambda app module is closed source and you have to pay for the software. Linux is licensed under the GPL V2 and people have paid OSes that run with that too. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/417166/#p417166 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Honest discussion, why pay for and use jaws over free screen readers?
Re: Honest discussion, why pay for and use jaws over free screen readers? I'm afraid for me Jaws was never an option simply due to the price. I used Supernova for years, but when in 2017 it turned out their windows 10 support translated to "supporting those bits of windows 10 we want", and not making any effort to fix the rest, I knew I needed something else. I would have liked to have tried Jaws simply for the sake of having a wider perspective, however with the price of Jaws in the Uk being as stupidly high as what it was, I saw little point in trying the demo. If it had been 50 quid, maybe even a hundred I'd have certainly tried for comparrison but the thousand or so the thing costs? On your bike!Really, if Freedom scientific want actual people to buy their software, not government organisations, not schools, not agencies (, they need to bloody well drop the price, and when I say drop, I mean really! drop, since hay as narrator and NVdA become more widely known you can bet agencies who are wanting to save cash will be less likely to pay inflated prices.The fact that we are even having this discussion, proves that from the end user's perspective the decision isn't as clear cut as it appears, and when people are debating the merits of something that costs over a thousand pounds, or heck even a hundred pounds vs something which is free, it should be a no brainer. imagine if your legs were paralysed and someone said to you, "well you can buy this top of the line electric wheel chair for a thousand pounds, which will go at multiple speeds, which you can operate with a stick, which folds up to be light enough to go in the back of a taxi, or you can crawl around with this walking stick for free. You will need to drag yourself along on knees, and probably get blisters, but it won't cost you anything" The decision here is pretty obvious, the benefits of paying for the wheel chair over the benefits of not buying a wheel chair and using the free, if vastly inferior option. Unless Jaws is so much better than the alternatives on offer so as to present that sort of choice, then the price is a serious problem.Of course I will freely admit I am slightly biased here, since I haven't experienced the issues people mention with NVdA lagging etc, and was even able to finish my PHd with their office support, complex footnotes and layout and all. I also don't doubt that were I to get a huge pile of money tomorrow and try Jaws there likely would be a thin or two I would find an improvement, but the problem here is not whether Jaws is better than NVdA or narrator, but whether those things Jaws is better at justify the price being charged from the software. Again this isn't to knock anyone who uses Jaws or suggest that people should stop doing so, heck I used supernova for close to 24 years myself, especially since I was bought a license when i went to university and so just had to pay the odd hundred quid for maintenance upgrades, just to question whether at this time when some bloody good free alternatives are possible the current Jaws pricing structure makes sense, especially from the perspective of potential new users like me. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/417159/#p417159 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Honest discussion, why pay for and use jaws over free screen readers?
Re: Honest discussion, why pay for and use jaws over free screen readers? I'm afraid for me Jaws was never an option simply due to the price. I used Supernova for years, but when in 2017 it turned out their windows 10 support translated to "supporting those bits of windows 10 we want", and not making any effort to fix the rest, I knew I needed something else. I would have liked to have tried Jaws simply for the sake of having a wider perspective, however with the price of Jaws in the Uk being as stupidly high as what it was, I saw little point in trying the demo. If it had been 50 quid, maybe even a hundred I'd have certainly tried for comparrison but the thousand or so the thing costs? On your bike!Really, if Freedom scientific want actual people to buy their software, not government organisations, not schools, not agencies (, they need to bloody well drop the price, and when I say drop, I mean really! drop, since hay as narrator and NVdA become more widely known you can bet agencies who are wanting to save cash will be less likely to pay inflated prices.The fact that we are even having this discussion, proves that from the end user's perspective the decision isn't as clear cut as it appears, and when people are debating the merits of something that costs over a thousand pounds, or heck even a hundred pounds vs something which is free, it should be a no brainer. imagine if your legs were paralysed and someone said to you, "well you can buy this top of the line electric wheel chair for a thousand pounds, which will go at multiple speeds, which you can operate with a stick, which folds up to be light enough to go in the back of a taxi, or you can crawl around with this walking stick for free. You will need to drag yourself along on knees, and probably get blisters, but it won't cost you anything" The decision here is pretty obvious, the benefits of paying for the wheel chair over the benefits of not buying a wheel chair and using the free, if vastly inferior option. Unless Jaws is so much better than the alternatives on offer so as to present that sort of choice, then the price is a serious problem.Of course I will freely admit I am slightly biased here, since I haven't experienced the issues people mention with NVdA lagging etc, and was even able to finish my PHd with their office support, complex footnotes and layout and all. I also don't doubt that were I to get a huge pile of money tomorrow and try Jaws there likely would be a thin or two I would find an improvement, but the problem here is not whether Jaws is better than NVdA or narrator, but whether those things Jaws is better at justify the price being charged from the software. Again this isn't to knock anyone who uses Jaws or suggest that people should stop doing so, heck I used supernova for close to 24 years myself, especially since I was bought a license when i went to university and so just had to pay the odd hundred quid for maintenance upgrades, just to question whether at this time when some bloody good free alternatives are possible the current Jaws pricing structure makes especially from the perspective of potential new users like me. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/417159/#p417159 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Honest discussion, why pay for and use jaws over free screen readers?
Re: Honest discussion, why pay for and use jaws over free screen readers? @25, I'm pretty sure it's stated explicitly in the NVDA license, though I could be misinterpreting it. = Non-GPL Components in Plugins and Drivers =Plugins and drivers, including those provided by third parties, are considered derivative works of NVDA and must therefore be licensed under the terms of the GNU General Public License version 2.As a special exception, an NVDA plugin or driver (as defined in the NVDA Developer Guide) may use components under other licenses provided that:a) Any such component does not prevent the NVDA plugin or driver from being licensed under the terms of the GNU General Public License version 2; andb) Any such component does not directly use and is not directly used by any portion of NVDA outside of that plugin or driver.For example, a speech synthesizer driver may use a speech synthesiser under a proprietary license.In contrast, in a plugin providing support for an application, the code which implements any interface provided by NVDA must be licensed under the GNU General Public License version 2. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/417144/#p417144 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Honest discussion, why pay for and use jaws over free screen readers?
Re: Honest discussion, why pay for and use jaws over free screen readers? The nvda remote insecurity thing basically had to do with someone handing out their key or using a very insecure one, THen one of the addons authors or an nvda developer, I don't know, connected to it, and sent a special string threw nvda which crashed it with an error dialog, not allowing you to restart it in the normal way because an error dialog was open. It was claimed that this resulted in loss of data, but a sighted person or narrator could have closed the dialog and fixed the issue. And the mess wouldn't have been created if the key wouldn't have been shared. If someone malicious controlls your pc via nvda remote, you're just screwed. Still unprofessional from the dev who did this though. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/417141/#p417141 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Honest discussion, why pay for and use jaws over free screen readers?
Re: Honest discussion, why pay for and use jaws over free screen readers? I mean, if you don't follow what your company tells you and something like that happens, then the responsibility is yours. By this same logic a Jaws update could theoretically come out with a security flaw FS didn't notice, and somebody could exploit it. Any program can come with exploits. Just because it did not so far happen does not mean it never will. In fact we can argue that open source is even less likely to come with a flaw like that as more people will review what goes into the final product. Regarding the remote situation, well 2 questions there. First, how would somebody gain access to the remote.ini file in the first place? Second, isn't that valid only if you have the addon configured to auto connect, and why would you do something like that in an enterprise environment? I'm talking about things which users could do unintentionally to make their NVDA less secure. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/417134/#p417134 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Honest discussion, why pay for and use jaws over free screen readers?
Re: Honest discussion, why pay for and use jaws over free screen readers? Nvda remote being insecure isn't an issue. If I can get hold and modify remote.ini on your system, I can get at much more like your browser profile which contains (probably) your passwords if you store them. You could also send keystrokes to a victim's computer if you have an application running and activate it that way. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/417131/#p417131 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Honest discussion, why pay for and use jaws over free screen readers?
Re: Honest discussion, why pay for and use jaws over free screen readers? @27 That's an extremely naive point of view. If you're the employer, to just say don't install any addons and expect them to do it, ok they might comply, but what if they don't, and your network is breached because of it? Can you really chance that? Can you just tell your 3 million customers oh sorry, our blind guy wasn't happy with Jaws and said they needed NVDA and that's the issue. From the employee's perspective, they probably see little harm in addons, and much benefit. How many people follow all company policies and rules to the letter? I mean come on... URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/417126/#p417126 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Honest discussion, why pay for and use jaws over free screen readers?
Re: Honest discussion, why pay for and use jaws over free screen readers? 27, I'm well aware of that. But the remote example I gave, and may I point out that's an official add-on, is valid. I personally don't care if places are happy with me not using JAWS or not, as I use my own PC, can't stand restrictions. But these are possible concerns they may come back with. Of course, we could claim that even windows itself is insecure, just boot from USB, and copy off all data that's on it. To that, one could password protect the BIOS, if it's EFI based, and there, security issue patched. But if people want to claim that NVDA is a security risk, they'll find a way. Not to mention add-ons don't technically need admin permissions. I'm personally not that concerned, got like 30 or so add-ons. And perhaps others won't be either. It's also worth mentioning that once NVDA gets approved, you can more or less install whatever the hell you want, they're unlikely to have looked at add-ons, so won't know what does what. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/417123/#p417123 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Honest discussion, why pay for and use jaws over free screen readers?
Re: Honest discussion, why pay for and use jaws over free screen readers? 27, I'm well aware of that. But the remote example I gave, and may I point out that's an official add-on, is valid. I personally don't care if places are happy with me not using JAWS or not, as I use my own PC, can't stand restrictions. But these are possible concerns they may come back with. Of course, we could claim that even windows itself is insecure, just boot from USB, and copy off all data that's on it. To that, one could password protect the BIOS, if it's EFI based, and there, security issue patched. But if people want to claim that NVDA is a security risk, they'll find a way. Not to mention add-ons don't technically need admin permissions. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/417123/#p417123 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Honest discussion, why pay for and use jaws over free screen readers?
Re: Honest discussion, why pay for and use jaws over free screen readers? hello, @17.I am saying that nvda is fine, but it lags some times, and it also have some other issues.and, people are getting jaws, and other payed softwares very easily because of pyracy,that's why they don't care about the prise. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/417056/#p417056 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
