Re: Let's Talk Combat
2020-09-20
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — General Game Discussion : devinprater via Audiogames-reflector
Re: Let's Talk Combat @36 it's a video game for PSP, playable through emulator, accessible through NVDA's OCR, Lion, or Retroarch's AI Service. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/572611/#p572611 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Let's Talk Combat
2020-09-20
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — General Game Discussion : Vazbol via Audiogames-reflector
Re: Let's Talk Combat @35: Isn't that game more a fighting game with RPG elements due to the source material? Nothing against fighting games being shifted into that state, there was an entire game series (tales) whoh initially started using side scrolling fighting-game style combat as the base for their first RPG. Anyway though, let's not entirely claim that real time rpgs aren't excluded from eventually turning predictable and boring, and they're even more vulnerable to crumbling with bad AI. Ignoring the entire problem with scripted events limiting options, players routinely break the Ai of games to have them do what they want, rather than the Ai be inteligent and perform actions in their best interest. baiting is the usual term for getting enemies to do what you want in a predictable fashion, to initiate the same counter attack over and over until you win. And it's really hard to design an AI complicated enough to avoid falling into the bait trap as millions of players playing a game with different ideas is more creativity than a small team of developers can match. With turn based RPG's, it's a lot easier to work an AI there as players are limited to a specific set of choices they had developed their party with. You don't have to worry if your player takes out your elite mooks here with a series of chain backstabs just because they know how to force an enemy to do the same attack over and over.though, pleanty of devs have created real time systems with a terrifying amount of depth, and awareness by their AIs to try to blunt these attempts to criple their capabilities. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/572435/#p572435 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Let's Talk Combat
2020-09-20
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — General Game Discussion : tayo . bethel via Audiogames-reflector
Re: Let's Talk Combat @35: Where can I get this for PC and is it playable or accessible? THat combat description made me salivate. LOL URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/572405/#p572405 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Let's Talk Combat
2020-09-19
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — General Game Discussion : devinprater via Audiogames-reflector
Re: Let's Talk Combat I'm in love with Dissidia Final Fantasy because of the active combat. No using one attack in Manamon 2 and just spamming the enter and arrow keys and just going on and on until you fall asleep. No. In Dissidia, you bring down your opponent's defense, BRV in game, to do much more damage with HP attacks. You bring down defends with BRV attacks, while trying to avoid your defense being brought down to zero. You do this with close, mid, and long range attacks, and you can block and dodge these same three kinds of attacks, all with different effects, like wall rush, basically being slammed against the wall for even *more* damage, or chase, where you enter a mode where you're chasing or being chased through the air, delivering BRV attacks, and dodging your opponents in a boppit style thing with also some guessing involved, and then you're able to also finish the chase with an HP attack! So you can widdle away at your opponent's defense, then deliver a big amount of damage at the end! But the chase doesn't go on forever, the opponent can hit a wall, or hit the ground.You also can get ex-cores, and our opponent can get them too. So when one appears, you have to chase the opponent for them! And this allows you to build up your ex-gauge, and when full, enter ex-mode, where your attacks are more powerful for a time, and you can perform an ex-burst, an ultimate attack that can finish your opponent... or not. Your opponent can block some of it if you have enough ... BRV or ex-gauge, can't remember which, and if you don't have the auto-ex-burst skill, you have to do a quicktime event thing.So yeah, very active, very engaging, and very fun! I mean, in Dissidia, even grinding story mode or quick battle is fun! In Manamon 2, it's just boring to me. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/572329/#p572329 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Let's Talk Combat
Re: Let's Talk Combat Soundrts is not mainly for playing against computers, but against players.Because playing against the players can completely reveal the charm of this game. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/571499/#p571499 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Let's Talk Combat
Re: Let's Talk Combat Speaking for myself, if I ever get my RPG off the ground, I've planned for this.On normal mode, the classes are fairly straightforward, but there is still synergy between attacks. For example, my thief has a Conceal+Ambush synergy, but later on also gets a passive skill that adds extra damage to a foe if that foe has a status condition, so the MO becomes "try to inflict a status condition, hide, then hit for big burst damage". On hard mode, classes are a bit more complicated; for instance, that same character is now an illusionist, and has a new resource, Shadow, to govern his attacks. There are different ways to gain more shadows, and they're expended using certain attacks, so you absolutely cannot just fire off your strongest skills over and over again.I agree completely that if all your skills consist of are Fireball, Greater Fireball, Huge Fireball and Firebomb, or some variant thereof, the only thing really holding you back is MP consumption. For instance, if Firebomb does three times the damage of Fireball but costs four times the MP, it's a short-term nuke unless you never run out of MP. The aim is to make it so that, while you definitely may outgrow some of your skills, that isn't the everyday run of things. It's difficult though. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/570996/#p570996 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Let's Talk Combat
Re: Let's Talk Combat @Berenion, I don't personally mind if higher level attacks are more advanced versions of lower level attacks since that does give you the idea that your character is improving, however as Sneak said, if you are only spamming one attack irrespective of what the enemy does, it doesn't matter what that attack is. In terms of randomness, again, it depends upon the situation and the options involved, since generally attacks that have a poor chance of hitting are not worth using unless you can increase that chance, whilst the random damage of a single attack matters less over all if your using that attack constantly. I'd myself prefer systems where enemies change range or defence, or where you had more combo attacks to use, thus meaning your not just doing the same thing in combat again and again. Actually, it's been interesting playing some of Ertay's adaptations of dice board games on Alexa, since those are great examples of simple systems, which at the same time, require far more in judgement and engagement from the player than simply making one or two dice rolls to see what happens, indeed I don't think it would require too much in terms of complex programming to just give players a little more option at the start of each battle. This is one reason I was so sorry the web game uncharted peak closed down, since that used grid based combat, with need to move, attack, and even find random orbs on the battlefield for each fight. combat was relatively simple, but just giving players the need to move, pick up items, occasionally take cover or move out of the way added so much more in terms of choice, making even generic fights against mooks much more interesting. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/570989/#p570989 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Let's Talk Combat
Re: Let's Talk Combat @Berenion, I don't personally mind if higher level attacks are more advanced versions of lower level attacks since that does give you the idea that your character is improving, however as Sneak said, if you are only spamming one attack irrespective of what the enemy does, it doesn't matter what that attack is. In terms of randomness, again, it depends upon the situation and the options involved, since generally attacks that have a poor chance of hitting are not worth using unless you can increase that chance, whilst the random damage of a single attack matters less over all if your using that attack constantly. I'd myself prefer systems where enemies change range or defence, or where you had more combo attacks to use, thus meaning your not just doing the same thing in combat again and again. Actually, it's been interesting playing some of Ertay's adaptations of dice board games on Alexa, since those are great examples of simple systems, which at the same time, require far more in judgement and engagement from the player than simply making one or two dice rolls to see what happens. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/570989/#p570989 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Let's Talk Combat
Re: Let's Talk Combat @Berenion, I don't personally mind if higher level attacks are more advanced versions of lower level attacks since that does give you the idea that your character is improving, however as Sneak said, if you are only spamming one attack irrespective of what the enemy does, it doesn't matter what that attack is. In terms of randomness, again, it depends upon the situation and the options involved, since generally attacks that have a poor chance of hitting are not worth using unless you can increase that chance, whilst the random damage of a single attack matters less over all if your using that attack constantly. I'd myself prefer systems where enemies change range or defence, or where you had more combo attacks to use, thus meaning your not just doing the same thing in combat again and again. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/570989/#p570989 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Let's Talk Combat
2020-09-15
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — General Game Discussion : Nocturnus via Audiogames-reflector
Re: Let's Talk Combat I haven't seen enough of the third one, sadly, so I can't comment on it. The other two I'm very familiar with... Too, familiar with, in fact. I honestly wish pure realtime were easier to put together, particularly as it pertains to the blind/VI/audiogaming community in general. As it stands, I can't think of any games I've played where I've actually seen it properly used. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/570982/#p570982 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Let's Talk Combat
Re: Let's Talk Combat Personally, I like the real time combat. However, Dark has a point about being able to determine if you can win a fight or not based on your gear and abilities. Still though, I do not like that most often these games allow you to use the same attacks repeatedly. Games like AHC and Manimon and pretty much any other game, the concept is figure out what the best attack is, and spam it until the target is dead. What's the point of having 5 different attacks, if you're just going to use one of them. Or two leading, and then one the rest of the fight. The only game where I felt that having multiple different types of attacks was one Chinese RPG I played. Unfortunately, the game world itself wasn't very well done, since it was just an open world, with no walls, terrain, or anything other than different ambiences. Anyway, I guess what I'm saying, is that I don't like it when games introduce new spells or skills to the players just in order to replace old spells and skills, rather than building on those old spells and skills. Take Alteraeon for example, if you're a mage, you get access to spells like blue dart, fireball, greater fireball, fire web. However, you'll never really use blue dart at higher levels, since the idea of a mage is to deal the most amount of damage as quickly as possible. They have been getting better about drawing in affects from lower level spells to improve higher level spells, like static blast decreasing a mob's resistance to zapping damage, but it's a pretty common thing I've seen in RPGs. You're given a huge list of skills and abilities, but only the highest level ones available are any good. It seems like a gimp thing to do, and reflects the forethought put into the skills and spells for that game IMHO. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/570977/#p570977 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Let's Talk Combat
2020-09-15
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — General Game Discussion : Berenion via Audiogames-reflector
Re: Let's Talk Combat Also, you can always add in a random factor. Attacks don't automatically hit, do a diceroll in the background. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/570957/#p570957 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Let's Talk Combat
Re: Let's Talk Combat Making actually intelligent AI is supposedly quite difficult.However, making scripted fights difficult is far less finicky. I can tell you from experience that even when you know what certain turn-based bosses are going to do ahead of time, because you've fought them before, that doesn't automatically mean you're safe and you're going to win. It will never be as hard as the first time, obviously, but it's not just a guaranteed win either. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/570953/#p570953 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Let's Talk Combat
Re: Let's Talk Combat I'm afraid I don't agree with those who tend to think turn based combat is dull, if you've ever played a tabletop rpg with real humans, then you can see how much fun turn based combat is . What is dull imho, as I said, are combats where you as a player don't need to really interact with what the enemy is doing. I don't even mean major boss transformation or slay the spire style changes in effects, I just mean things like Kerkerkruip's system where enemies would concentrate for a turn before attacking, or games like smugglers battle effects where both you and your opponent could be prevented from doing something and would need to find alternative strategies.i also agree completely with Dardar that thus far, the acctive time battles we've seen have tended to just revolve around attacking as soon as your attacks are full, other than in Breed memorial, however, this isn't necessarily the only way active time battles can work at all. for example, imagine a really simple system where your character has three options, windup, attack, and block. Hitting windup for a second and then attacking does additional damage, whilst hitting windup and then blocking parry's an opponent's swing and stuns them temporarily. Hitting attack just attacks the opponent, whilst hitting block enters a blocking stance for half a secod.So, if your fighting a barbarian with a dirty great axe who swings powerfully but not too often, your best off taking the time to wind up, parry the axe, and then wind up again while your opponent is stunned and attack. if your fighting a swift assassin with a dagger who attacks more often, your best using basic blocking stance, and then attacking when you can, since windup is just going to get you stabbed. this is the sort of thing I mean, situations where you need to actually assess what you are fighting and adapt your strategy to that threat, rather than just hitting attack constantly and relying upon your preconfigured setup of gear to just carry the day for you.It is true that since the majority of accessible rpgs have been turn based, the majority of uninteresting instances of combat we've seen have been turn based, but I don't personally see that as an inherent lack in the system, so much as just the slightly skewed availability of what is around so far.This isn't to say I'd be against a real time combat scenario either, although the problem there would be to give enough complexity to qualify as an rpg, spells, abilities, lots of ground to explore, character levelling and so on, rather than just an intensive action game, although I admit that games like Swamp do rather blur the lines here a little. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/570938/#p570938 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Let's Talk Combat
Re: Let's Talk Combat I'm afraid I don't agree with those who tend to think turn based combat is dull, if you've ever played a tabletop rpg with real humans, then you can see how much fun turn based combat is . @What is dull, in turn based terms as I said, are combats where you as a player don't need to really interact with what the enemy is doing. I don't even mean major boss transformation or slay the spire style changes in effects, I just mean things like Kerkerkruip's system where enemies would concentrate for a turn before attacking, or games like smugglers battle effects where both you and your opponent could be prevented from doing something and would need to find alternative strategies.i also agree completely with Dardar that thus far, the acctive time battles we've seen have tended to just revolve around attacking as soon as your attacks are full, other than in Breed memorial, however, this isn't necessarily the only way active time battles can work at all. for example, imagine a really simple system where your character has three options, windup, attack, and block. Hitting windup for a second and then attacking does additional damage, whilst hitting windup and then blocking parry's an opponent's swing and stuns them temporarily. Hitting attack just attacks the opponent, whilst hitting block enters a blocking stance for half a secod.So, if your fighting a barbarian with a dirty great axe who swings powerfully but not too often, your best off taking the time to wind up, parry the axe, and then wind up again while your opponent is stunned and attack. if your fighting a swift assassin with a dagger who attacks more often, your best using basic blocking stance, and then attacking when you can, since windup is just going to get you stabbed. this is the sort of thing I mean, situations where you need to actually assess what you are fighting and adapt your strategy to that threat, rather than just hitting attack constantly and relying upon your preconfigured setup of gear to just carry the day for you.This isn't to say I'd be against a real time combat scenario either, although the problem there would be to give enough complexity to qualify as an rpg, spells, abilities, lots of ground to explore, character levelling and so on, rather than just an intensive action game, although I admit that games like Swamp do rather blur the lines here a little. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/570938/#p570938 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Let's Talk Combat
2020-09-15
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — General Game Discussion : connor142 via Audiogames-reflector
Re: Let's Talk Combat I want to see more games that do realtime combat right. The only rpg that tried this was shadow rine, and planet saga will have a similar system, whenever that comes out. But everything else is bop it style. The enemy just attacks left, center or right, and you have to block or dodge the attack, then wale on the enemy yourself based on where he is and what he's doing. z... URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/570916/#p570916 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Let's Talk Combat
Re: Let's Talk Combat Now for my thoughts.When it comes to audiogmes, I think the only real-time combat game that we have thats really good is Soundrts. I like having to prepare for the fact that the opoent might end an attack when I'm not ready.But aside from that I think all the other titles, for real-time combat, are too simplistic.I enjoy both turn-based and real-time, as long as the game's systems are well-desighned. Real-time is dinamic and requires quick-thinking were as turn-based requires you to think carefully about your next actions and having to improvise, at times.I'd say in general, combat in audiogames needs to be more developed at least when it comes to real time. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/570914/#p570914 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Let's Talk Combat
2020-09-15
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — General Game Discussion : dardar via Audiogames-reflector
Re: Let's Talk Combat So from my perspective I often find complete turn based strategy completely and utterly boring. At the risk of bragging, the down side to turn based is, even with the time element, you still have plenty of time to sit back, take a drink of your tea and predict exactly what everyone can and can not do.I admit I've not played many of the rpg's mentioned in this topic, say for entombed, but one thing I always felt the audiogame community lacked was real actual engagement. take assassins creed, in that game you have to actually time yourself to avoid guards, you have to get a shot exactly lined up, and I kid you not in one mission you had to flip off of a roof, through the air, just to slice someone as you passed. Now that's not to say coding something like that is easy. Far from it I'd imagine, hell just coding a realistic fencing slash v.s block system for a sword was enough for me to sit back and go damn. I need more time than I want to dedicate to this right now.Going off of frameworks I am familiar with:tactical battle was turn based and I got so bored with it it was unreal.Time of conflict was turn based with a time elemnt, which held my interest for a while and still sometimes does, but the fact there are a few logistics problems (no resistance within cities, no spies and you have to kill every, single, enemy unit) eventually lead to me shaking my head and walking away.Finally from the real time area I admit I did thoroughly enjoy soundRTS for the longest time. That real time element, that while you're building footman, the enemy could be building archers, that really was a thrill. Naturally the problem with soundRTS is it is still a whee bit primitive and the AI becomes predictable after so long.That in my opinion, is what no audio game or mud has yet to create, an AI that is actually,you know, intellegent.Jayde, you mention it above and a big problem I could see with playing your proposed game is I'd play it the first time, likely die, but from then on I'd just predict everything. The AI has no... Okay, this failed lets try this instead!AI in audiogames are nearly always coded with a hardcore single track mind. AI's need to be flexible, to have multiple paths they can take, that's what makes good combat. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/570899/#p570899 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Let's Talk Combat
Re: Let's Talk Combat Chrono Trigger's techs are something I always thought was nifty. Double and triple techs can be quite nice and very powerful.Guard Scorpion from FFVII or Whelk from FFVI could easily be done without ATB, however. As long as there is an indication that the creature's state has changed (tail raised, monster tucked away in shell, etc), then players would know that attacking during that time would lead to whatever it was the boss was going to do as a counter-attack. In a pure turn-based setup, you can simply use those turns to heal, defend or, if you're healed up and know the payback won't wipe you out, just pound on the boss anyway. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/570870/#p570870 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Let's Talk Combat
2020-09-15
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — General Game Discussion : Berenion via Audiogames-reflector
Re: Let's Talk Combat Chrono Trigger used the active turn system to introduce double and tripple techs, powerful attacks performed by two or three party members at the same time. I think it was a very good mechanic. It encouraged you to wait until your second characters turn was up, instead of acting as soon as you can.Also, another implementation of active battles is when certain enemies are more vulnerable if you attack at a certain point in their turn, or they could retaliate if you attack at the wrong time. Just like the Scorpion sentinel boss in FF VII. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/570864/#p570864 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Let's Talk Combat
2020-09-15
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — General Game Discussion : aaron77 via Audiogames-reflector
Re: Let's Talk Combat That's fair. Slay the spire isn't party-based. You only have the one character.I'd say slay the spire has at least as much story as Entombed did, but maybe even a little more since you'll find bits of story text sprinkled around the game as you play more.I've noticed Japanese audio games tend to have more real-time combat whereas Western audio games are typically turn-based or very basic sidescrollers. I wonder why that is? URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/570859/#p570859 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Let's Talk Combat
Re: Let's Talk Combat Yeah, I'm figuring in my own way of doing things that most boss fights will be scripted, so once you play them a few times you will have a pretty good idea of what's coming. But as far as intent, bear in mind you've got a party of players in my scenario, so having a party member know whether or not they specifically are gonna get attacked seems a bit much.That said, Slay the Spire sounds like something I ought to try and take a look at. The only thing it seems to lack is an overarching story, which for me when it comes to the RPG genre is huge. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/570855/#p570855 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Let's Talk Combat
2020-09-14
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — General Game Discussion : aaron77 via Audiogames-reflector
Re: Let's Talk Combat @15: That's basically what the Slay the Spire bosses are like.One thing I love about that game that I've never seen before is that you can see enemy intents during your turn. If something intends to attack me during its turn, I know about it beforehand and can choose to counter it (or not.)You won't see specifics about what buffs or debuffs enemies intend to apply but since most of the monsters act on certain patterns it's not hard to figure out and it's not meant to be hard either.I'm not a huge fan of the active turn-based systems like A Dark Room because the games we have that use those systems are way too simplistic. Your goal is to accumulate as many attacks as possible and fire them as soon as their bars fill. At that point, I'd rather combat be automated and your character run all attacks when they're ready.I've never played the final fantasy games that use that system though and I imagine they did a far better job keeping it complex and engaging.Do you guys remember the Battle Arena iOS game? That was a great example of a turn-based game that was complex, engaging and didn't put too much emphasis on having the right equipment for each fight. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/570853/#p570853 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Let's Talk Combat
2020-09-14
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — General Game Discussion : aaron77 via Audiogames-reflector
Re: Let's Talk Combat @15: That's basically what the Slay the Spire bosses are like.One thing I love about that game that I've never seen before is that you can see enemy intents during your turn. If something intends to attack me during its turn, I know about it beforehand and can choose to counter it (or not.)You won't see specifics about what buffs or debuffs enemies intend to apply but since most of the monsters act on certain patterns it's not hard to figure out and it's not meant to be hard either.I'm not a huge fan of the active turn-based systems like A Dark Room because the games we have that use those systems are way too simplistic. Your goal is to accumulate as many attacks as possible and fire them as soon as their bars fill. At that point, I'd rather combat be automated and your character run all attacks when they're ready.I've never played the final fantasy games that use that system and I imagine they did a far better job keeping it complex and engaging. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/570853/#p570853 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Let's Talk Combat
2020-09-14
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — General Game Discussion : Berenion via Audiogames-reflector
Re: Let's Talk Combat I enjoy turn-based combat more, because I'm not that good at quickly reacting to what's happening, but if done properly I'd love a good real time system too. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/570846/#p570846 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Let's Talk Combat
Re: Let's Talk Combat Well, how it would actually -sound, I don't know. Sound design is definitely not my thing. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/570836/#p570836 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Let's Talk Combat
2020-09-14
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — General Game Discussion : Accman via Audiogames-reflector
Re: Let's Talk Combat Honestly, I'm not really sure which style of combat I prefer as they are all good in there own ways. From what I have experienced in some games like BK2 and BK3, I really do like the idea of real-time combat as it seems to be more realistic.Jade: that is a really cool boss battle idea. If that was ever to be placed in some sort of RPG, I would have to try it just to see what this battle would sound like. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/570810/#p570810 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Let's Talk Combat
Re: Let's Talk Combat Dark, I'll give you an example of a boss fight that would require strategy. Read carefully.Name: Calamity of Thunder (placeholder)Description: An enormous purple and black thunderhead which appears to have some sort of a face in it; it crackles with energy and floats just overhead, constantly bobbing and never stillStats: significant HP, decent defense, high magic attack, decent magic defense, decent initiativeAttacks: Muted Rumble, Cloud Split, Lightning Flash, Rising Wind, Chain Lightning, Cloudburst, Swallow Cloud, Downpour, HurricaneMuted Rumble: Does low air damage to all targetsCloud Split: sacrifices HP to summon a number of clouds to its aid; 2-5 clouds are summoned each time the skill is used, and 1% of the boss's max HP will be sacrificed with each cloud created (i.e., if its max is 3000, it will lose 30HP per cloud summoned, but its overall max will still be 3000); the clouds do not attack, have 1HP and 0 armour, and act only as decoys and as setup for laterLightning Flash: does no damage, but has a 60% chance to inflict the blind status on all characters for 3-4 turns (blind means your accuracy is lowered significantly, making it much harder to hit with physical attacks and skills)Rising Wind: hits all characters for modest wind damage, and has a 30% chance to cast silence on each target for 3-4 turns (silence stops an affected target from using magic)Chain Lightning: this devastating attack will do large lightning damage to random targets; there will be one attack for the boss itself, plus one for every cloud remaining on the field (more clouds on the field means more hits from Chain Lightning)Cloudburst: Fires only under one specific condition. If a party member attempts to use an attack which hits more than one hostile target while there are clouds present (in order to wipe them all out in one go, say?), the boss will immediately counter with Cloudburst, which will cause each cloud struck to do 20-40% of the striker's max HP in damage. For example, if there are 4 clouds on the field and your mage uses an AoE fire attack to wipe out all the clouds, he's going to get hit 4 times with an attack which will remove 20-40% of his max Hp on each hit (which is likely to kill him or at least seriously wound him).Swallow Cloud: this move causes the boss to absorb any remaining clouds back into itself; because of their proximity to the boss for the last few turns, each cloud is now able to restore 6% of the boss's max HP; if no clouds remain when this attack fires, it fails outrightDownpour: Rain begins pouring down; this will do low to modest water damage at the end of every round until the battle ends, and will only be used once, when the boss reaches or drops below the 25% HP threshold; any clouds present when Downpour fires become untargetable and cannot be destroyedHurricane: does decent water damage and significant wind damage to all targets, with a 25% chance to cause confusion for 2-3 rounds when it hits (confusion status makes it so that the target of any action taken by a confused character is random for its duration; you can hit your allies with hostile spells and skills this way)Attack Pattern: Muted Rumble, Cloud Split, Lightning Flash, Rising Wind, Chain Lightning, Swallow Cloud, Muted Rumble, etcNote: when Downpour occurs, the attack pattern changes; immediately after using Downpour, the boss will simply alternate between Chain Lightning and Hurricane, round after round, until either it dies or the player party does. In this way, a little luck and planning will be needed, since having multiple clouds during the Downpour phase will be simply too much damage output to cope with.Hard Mode: Downpour occurs at the 40% HP threshold, and clouds heal 10% instead of 6% each; this sounds ruinous, but if a player is careful it can also allow them to set up more easily in the non-downpour phase, triggering it when they're more ready.I would place this boss about halfway through the game, by the way. Am wondering if this much engagement would be to your liking, or anybody else's. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/570799/#p570799 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Let's Talk Combat
Re: Let's Talk Combat Dark, I'll give you an example of a boss fight that would require strategy. Read carefully.Name: Calamity of Thunder (placeholder)Description: An enormous purple and black thunderhead which appears to have some sort of a face in it; it crackles with energy and floats just overhead, constantly bobbing and never stillStats: significant HP, decent defense, high magic attack, decent magic defense, decent initiativeAttacks: Muted Rumble, Cloud Split, Lightning Flash, Rising Wind, Chain Lightning, Swallow Cloud, Downpour, HurricaneMuted Rumble: Does low air damage to all targetsCloud Split: sacrifices HP to summon a number of clouds to its aid; 2-5 clouds are summoned each time the skill is used, and 1% of the boss's max HP will be sacrificed with each cloud created (i.e., if its max is 3000, it will lose 30HP per cloud summoned, but its overall max will still be 3000); the clouds do not attack, have 1HP and 0 armour, and act only as decoys and as setup for laterLightning Flash: does no damage, but has a 60% chance to inflict the blind status on all characters for 3-4 turns (blind means your accuracy is lowered significantly, making it much harder to hit with physical attacks and skills)Rising Wind: hits all characters for modest wind damage, and has a 30% chance to cast silence on each target for 3-4 turns (silence stops an affected target from using magic)Chain Lightning: this devastating attack will do large lightning damage to random targets; there will be one attack for the boss itself, plus one for every cloud remaining on the field (more clouds on the field means more hits from Chain Lightning)Swallow Cloud: this move causes the boss to absorb any remaining clouds back into itself; because of their proximity to the boss for the last few turns, each cloud is now able to restore 6% of the boss's max HP; if no clouds remain when this attack fires, it fails outrightDownpour: Rain begins pouring down; this will do low to modest water damage at the end of every round until the battle ends, and will only be used once, when the boss reaches or drops below the 25% HP threshold; any clouds present when Downpour fires become untargetable and cannot be destroyedHurricane: does decent water damage and significant wind damage to all targets, with a 25% chance to cause confusion for 2-3 rounds when it hits (confusion status makes it so that the target of any action taken by a confused character is random for its duration; you can hit your allies with hostile spells and skills this way)Attack Pattern: Muted Rumble, Cloud Split, Lightning Flash, Rising Wind, Chain Lightning, Swallow Cloud, Muted Rumble, etcNote: when Downpour occurs, the attack pattern changes; immediately after using Downpour, the boss will simply alternate between Chain Lightning and Hurricane, round after round, until either it dies or the player party does. In this way, a little luck and planning will be needed, since having multiple clouds during the Downpour phase will be simply too much damage output to cope with.Hard Mode: Downpour occurs at the 40% HP threshold, and clouds heal 10% instead of 6% each; this sounds ruinous, but if a player is careful it can also allow them to set up more easily in the non-downpour phase, triggering it when they're more ready.I would place this boss about halfway through the game, by the way. Am wondering if this much engagement would be to your liking, or anybody else's. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/570799/#p570799 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Let's Talk Combat
2020-09-14
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — General Game Discussion : ironcross32 via Audiogames-reflector
Re: Let's Talk Combat I like realtime because I'm stupid and it's reactionary versus requiring thought. I suck at anything strategy related, from chess to something like SoundRTS or Warcraft II / III when I could see better. Even turn based that requires you to strategize like Tactical Battles - a game I do like despite not being good at it - requires thought. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/570793/#p570793 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Let's Talk Combat
Re: Let's Talk Combat For me at least, I don't think the question comes down to a preferred style, so much as a preferred level of engagement. There have been a lot of games that use turn based combat, from muds, to card games like slay the spire or crazy party, to entombed, the wastes, eamon, browser rpgs etc. Defender is probably correct that breed memorial is likely the closest we get to a true active time battle system, although a dark room and more recently untold are also good examples, and then of course you get games which, though turn based, still mess around with turn order and initiative to break up the you go, they go method of most combats, the way entombed or Puppet nightmares do, and then of course there are the action point based battles like smugglers.However, for me, what makes combat interesting is not necessarily any specific style, so much as my own engagement with that style, and how much attention I need to pay to what is going on. If I'm just spamming one spell or attack over and over, the combat is just not going to be interesting to me, no matter what style it is. heck, if I'm playing real time combat and just wailing away with the same weapon over and again, the combat is not going to hold my interest half as much, although we've had comparatively few real time combat rpgs in audiogame terms thus far.for me, an engaging combat system is simply one that requires me to actually consider what my enemy is doing and how I react to it, or one which requires me to witness a current situation, and play accordingly. if in a combat, I'm fighting a huge dragon, and it suddenly breathes fire and my actions do not change, then the combat hasn't engaged me. This is also why I personally am much less a fan of ridiculously complex equipment and stat balancing systems, since if essentially your going to win every combat before it happens based on the gear the player equips, then what is the point in having the combat at all, after all what is the point of fighting a huge fire breathing dragon if I know that I've already got a high enough dodge bonus for all of it's fire to miss me, so don't have to change what my party does in the least.So for me at least, I don't really mind what sort of combat a game employs, so long as it is engaging and actually requires me, the player to be an active part in the battle. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/570788/#p570788 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Let's Talk Combat
2020-09-14
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — General Game Discussion : defender via Audiogames-reflector
Re: Let's Talk Combat Isn't Shadow Line realtime combat? URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/570781/#p570781 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Let's Talk Combat
Re: Let's Talk Combat I suppose Manamon and Manamon 2 count, yes. The strategy really isn't there, but yes, they count. And the hyper forms are at least more complicated versions of normal battles. If my RPG ever flies, I want to really blow that sort of complex combat out of the water. Heh.I've never played the wastes, actually. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/570775/#p570775 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Let's Talk Combat
2020-09-14
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — General Game Discussion : keyIsFull via Audiogames-reflector
Re: Let's Talk Combat I can't think of any fully real time combat audio game rpg's. In the pure turn based genre we also have manamon and manamon 2, slay the spire which isn't technically an audio game but still great, the wastes, and all of the various gamebooks of course. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/570774/#p570774 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Let's Talk Combat
Re: Let's Talk Combat Yeah, that's about the closest we have, I'd agree. And as you say, it's part side-scrolling as well.Kjsisco, that sort of game doesn't play itself. You're controlling one or more characters and have to determine how they react at any given time. As such, I'm not quite sure what you're on about. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/570764/#p570764 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Let's Talk Combat
2020-09-14
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — General Game Discussion : KenshiraTheTrinity via Audiogames-reflector
Re: Let's Talk Combat Actually yeah, I agree that it is the closest we have. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/570763/#p570763 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Let's Talk Combat
2020-09-14
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — General Game Discussion : defender via Audiogames-reflector
Re: Let's Talk Combat I think Breed Memorial's arena battles are the closest we have to active turn based combat, but obviously that's A. Sidescrolling and B. Not an RPG. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/570761/#p570761 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Let's Talk Combat
2020-09-14
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — General Game Discussion : kjsisco via Audiogames-reflector
Re: Let's Talk Combat Ah but that sort of automated combat as I call it is turn-based. From a programming perspective it is 0-player. The game sort of fights itself. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/570757/#p570757 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Let's Talk Combat
Re: Let's Talk Combat Yup, I know about most of those things, and I know that you can used timed button presses to increase damage as in the Paper Mario franchise. I knew I was missing a term a bit, though, so thanks for correcting me.I have a lot of experience with the RPG genre in general. It says a great deal that many of the games I particularly enjoy in this genre came out of the 90s and early 2000s, but I think it also says a lot that the sort of combat I like is still featured in top 10 RPG lists and whatnot.I fully respect everyone's preferences here, BTW. Turn-based is not everybody's cup of tea, and real-time is not everybody's cup of tea either.It's the same as where it comes to movement in games. Some people like top-down style (I used to be one of them), while some people like full 2D, as in AHC. Both definitely have their charms, though I suspect AHC-style movement is far harder to code properly.I think one of the criticisms of pure turn-based combat, with no ATB element, is that in order to actually be difficult, sometimes enemies or even bosses will straight-up kill you because you didn't see their trick coming the first time, or don't know how to counter it. For me personally, this makes up part of the challenge. As long as a game is designed well enough that the constant answer isn't "overlevel, so you kill the boss before it kills you", I think it's okay. For example, if a boss does crazy damage to poisoned characters, maybe there is a poison-immunity ring somewhere before the boss, which will make at least one party member immune to that crazy damage. Or let's say a boss does really high wind damage; maybe there is a spell your mage can get at level 24 where it can nullify wind damage on your party periodically, so maybe you didn't want the mage with you before but you definitely do in this boss fight. Speaking personally, I love working this sort of thing out. AHC wanted to do this well, but didn't quite get there. Entombed wanted to do this as well, but it's too random; for the things it does get right, it gets a lot wrong. I was ridiculously excited when it first showed itself over a decade ago. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/570754/#p570754 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Let's Talk Combat
2020-09-14
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — General Game Discussion : KenshiraTheTrinity via Audiogames-reflector
Re: Let's Talk Combat The second style of rpg combat is known as active turn-based combat, or atb for short. The first game to really have that as final fantasy 4. We don't really have a game that uses this style in audiogames that I know of, so it would be refreshing if such an rpg that contained it was created. As for myself, I like all 3 styles, and would actually reclassify shadow line as top-down adventure with rpg elements, but because it has both an exploration and combat phase,, bk1 is an excellent game that uses the third style.Also worth noting sometimes a turn-based rpg may implement QuickTime elements in its combat, such as when you press a button to increase the damage of your attack exactly when it hits like in mario rpg, or the paper mario series. An rpg audio game that does this is your adventure. Still curiously waiting on development of that one. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/570750/#p570750 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Let's Talk Combat
2020-09-14
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — General Game Discussion : lml5280 via Audiogames-reflector
Re: Let's Talk Combat I feel that post 2 has it right.I don't mind the idea of real-time combat once in awhile, but I tend to like to think something through and strategize, so I always prefer a turn-based approach.To be fair though, I really haven't seen real-time combat in an audio game done very well. But I tend to be the type of person who likes to think through my choices and strategize. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/570746/#p570746 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Let's Talk Combat
2020-09-14
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — General Game Discussion : BoundTo via Audiogames-reflector
Re: Let's Talk Combat My prefered systems for combat pretty much go from most to least favorite in the order you presented them in. I don't think there's anything wrong with the sense of urgency that comes along with real time combat, but I personally prefer having the time to decide what I'd like to do. Not only that, but I feel that I have better success with anticipating/predicting what an enemy's next move will be in a turn based system. It's more enjoyable for me. (Not to mention the unique elements that can be brought to the table) URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/570740/#p570740 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
